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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bernard de Lattre de Tassigny

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. There's some reasonable indication that this individual may in fact pass the notability guideline, but it remains somewhat unclear as the coverage is somewhat sparse. There is currently no consensus either way; although the suggestion of a merge to his father's article if this one can't be fleshed out more is a valid one. ~ mazca talk 01:01, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bernard de Lattre de Tassigny

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Bernard de Lattre de Tassigny (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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Bernard de Lattre de Tassigny is noted only as the son of Jean de Lattre de Tassigny. He has no separate notability and, without sounding callous, this is covered appropriately in the parent article. Has no significant awards or career to earn the subject separate inclusion. SGGH ping! 17:14, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

delete I have to agree, it does not seem he is notable except as someones son.Slatersteven (talk) 17:43, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete it is already in the article for his father, so no need to merge. DGG ( talk ) 19:57, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Notability is not inherited. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 20:41, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep he did receive the highest purely military award in the French military, the Médaille militaire, at seventeen making him the youngest soldier to win the medal. After his death his funeral was held at the Invalides and was extended to be one in memory of all those killed in Indochina. He was also the patron of the 1984-85 class of the École militaire interarmes. A book has been written about him, “Un destin héroïque Bernard de Lattre”, by Robert Garric, a notable French author, who have a page at the French Wikipedia. Carl Logan (talk) 20:47, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Médaille militaire is not (in the context of bravery) the highest French award. It is only considered thus if given for leadership and can in that instance only be given to generals and admirals who had been commanders-in-chief. Also after WW1 it was given as a wound award. What is odd is that it can only be given to privates and Non-coms for bravery, Commissioned officers are not eligible.Slatersteven (talk) 21:03, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The source you provide is interesting, it seems to say his award of the Médaille militaire was for being seriously wounded, in its wound badge capacity, and not as a result of exceptioanl bravery. We need more informationm as to why his was awarded this decoration.Slatersteven (talk) 19:29, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I got a fair amount of hits on Google Books. It seems there was a book (or maybe booklet) published about him in 1952, see here: Un destin héroïque Bernard de Lattre : récits et lettres recueillis et présentés par Robert Garric. He may not meet the MLHIST notability guidelines for people, but there has been enough response to his death in general that he may meet the general notability guidelines. Trouble is, most of the sources are in French, and while most of them are about his death and not the response to his death, I can't reliably tell which are which. The French and Vietnamese Wikipedia articles also seem to have more details than our article. Carcharoth (talk) 22:00, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can’t find any reference to him being the youngest solder to win the Médaille militaire I can’t even find any list of recipients with his name on (which may just mean they are not complete, which hardly speaks volumes about his notability). There are references to him receiving it though, all of which is a bit perplexing. Most of the material also seems to be no better then our current article. Basically it seems he was not an exceptional officer and was only well known because he was the son of a general.Slatersteven (talk) 13:36, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The information that he was youngest person to recieve the medal comes from "Three Marshal of France" by Anthony Clayton, page 158. Carl Logan (talk) 18:20, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I've looked some more at the sources here, and there is enough here for a separate Wikipedia article, IMO.
    • (1) The best online source appears to be 30/05/51 - Lieutenant Bernard de Lattre de Tassigny (23 ans) 1er Chasseur, from the soldatsdefrance website (Google translation). There is another biography online here that gives further details (Google translation), including that he was part of the French resistance during the Second World War. That may be over-stating it, but this source says that he helped his father escape Vichy France to join the Free French (I may be getting some terms wrong there). More on that here in Newsweek.
    • (2) His death received widespread coverage. It was because of who he was, but that doesn't make the coverage any less widespread or notable. 1951 article in TIME magazine.
    • (3) His funeral was LIFE magazine picture of the week in the 25 June 1951 issue.
    • (4) There was the book (mentioned earlier) that was published about him. See here. Un destin héroïque Bernard de Lattre : récits et lettres recueillis et présentés par Robert Garric - which translates as "A heroic destiny Bernard de Lattre: narratives and letters collected and presented by Robert Garric." It sounds like a tribute publication, and almost certainly is, but it is precisely the reaction to his death that makes him notable. The blog that tells us about this book that was published says "The loss touched France which opened a little, eyes on the conflict which took place at the end of the world." If someone had full access to the French sources, I am almost certain that we would find that there was a strong reaction in the French press to this death, and this is why it is mentioned often in histories of this war. At the least, this needs to be mentioned not just in his father's article, but also the article about the war, and any section covering the response of the press and the French public and the world press to this death.
    • (5) Two more example of wider press coverage: French General Flies Home With Only Son's Body (The Hartford Courant, 3 June 1951) and FRENCH CHIEF'S SON SLAIN; Lieut. Bernard de Lattre Dies in Combat in Indo-China (The New York Times, 31 May 1951).
    • (6) His death is still being commemorated very recently: 2007 and 2008. Some translated comments from those webpages: "In memory of Bernard de Lattre. Organized by the district committee of the French Memorial in collaboration with the Municipality of Wildenstein, the memorial mass in memory of Bernard de Lattre de Tassigny, followed by a patriotic ceremony, witnessed a large crowd. Besides the 18 standard bearers representing many patriotic societies with chairmen and members, several mayors and elected representatives of villages, ancient Indochina and anonymous attended the memorial mass in memory of Bernard de Lattre de Tassigny, who died in Indochina the age of 23." and "The memorial. Fervor and reverence for the section of St-Amarin Remembrance French who celebrated St. Bernard, in memory of Bernard De Lattre de Tassigny around the Chapel of Our Lady of Joy. So, last Sunday, the retired priest Charles Thierry officiated enhanced by the choir Husseren under the direction of Michael Haller, attended by delegates from 17 associations patriotic Township Saint-Amarin with flags, and Christian Baron , cousin of Bernard de Lattre, from the Paris region." Even if something got missed in translation, I think the general thrust is clear.
    • (7) If you want meta-discussion of all this, try this (Cultured Force: Makers and Defenders of the French Colonial Empire, By Barnett Singer, John Langdon). And here we have more discussion of the impact on the family, including references to noblesse oblige and the father general asking his wife for forgiveness. And here we are told that his father told the American people on television that his only son had died for them and the free world. There are also multiple comments that "In all, 21 sons of French marshals and generals died in Indochina" (see here) - so there is a case for making a list of those 21 sons of marshals and generals that died in that war, and the sources comment on Bernard de Lattre de Tassigny as the first of them to die. I did see some source somewhere referring to this in the wider context of generals sending their sons into battle throughout history (this happened in other wars as well), but unfortunately I can't find that now.
      • Comment I'm probably going to incite some anger or something with this comment, but I feel it still must be said. As great as the sources you've provided are, there is one thing that really bothers me about them: they all are either trivial mentions or (more frequently) mention his father primarily. Take a look at the title of some of the sources: "FRENCH CHIEF'S SON SLAIN" and "War: Soldier's Son", just to name two that stood out at me. What bothers me is that it seems the only reason he is being noticed is because of his father. If some notable actor's son died at the age of one, you would probably get a lot of sources too, but it still wouldn't be fit for inclusion in an encyclopedia. I am totally in agreement with this information being present in his father's article, and perhaps have this article be a redirect to his father, but I don't think he's deserving of his own article right now as pretty much everything just seems to mention his death in relation to his father. Fun counterpoint in the interest of neutrality and provoking discussion: Disregarding WP:NOTINHERITED right now, are all of these sources sufficient to meet WP:GNG? Counter-counterpoint: Does that encroach on WP:BLP1E? --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 17:38, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • As best I can make out, Bernard de Lattre de Tassigny's death transcended his military career and due to the circumstances (the war being fought, and him being the son of the general), there was a marked reaction to his death, and it is still being commented on and remembered today. At the very least, some of this material needs to be added to his father's article, and at the least the name of Bernard de Lattre de Tassigny should redirect there. Carcharoth (talk) 03:32, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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