Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gheorghe Caranda

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 09:51, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Gheorghe Caranda

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Rejected PROD. Fails WP:NOTMEMORIAL: the only claim to notability is "first Romanian to die in an aircraft accident", which is not an establishment of notability. Fails WP:SOLDIER, WP:NPERSON. The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:36, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:37, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:37, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Notable firsts are generally regarded as notable. The first person to die in an aircraft accident in a particular country is therefore notable, especially if it was in the early years of aviation (the first death in a powered aircraft crash anywhere in the world was only four years earlier). Not a memorial in the slightest, simply a notable first. We have many articles on notable firsts, for the simple reason that they're notable. Just as an example, why is the first American soldier killed in World War I notable? He was just an ordinary private with no achievements whatsoever except being unlucky. Probably distinctly less notable than an early aviation pioneer. Yet I can imagine the flood of objections if you tried to get the article deleted. Why? Because his death was notable as a first and he came from a major English-speaking country. Yet Wikipedia is not meant to discriminate against non-English-speaking countries. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:55, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why is being the first Romanian killed in an aircraft crash notable? At the risk of invoking WP:OTHERSTUFF, do we have an article on the first Israeli killed in an aircraft crash? The first Portuguese? Tanzanian? His only claim to notability is having been killed in an aircrash, and that is WP:ONEEVENT. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:19, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You could equally say we don't have articles on the first people of other nationalities killed yet. Doesn't mean they're not notable. Doesn't mean nobody will write articles on them. We have many, many articles on notable firsts - are you, on the basis of this nomination, going to nominate them all for deletion because that's all they're notable for? Presumably you will now nominate Joseph William Guyton, an utterly insignificant individual, for deletion. Or is being the first American killed in a single war out of many more significant than being the first Romanian ever killed in an aircrash? Just one example of many, as I said. WP:OTHERSTUFF is irrelevant. We have articles because being the first person to do something significant or have something significant happen to you is inherently notable. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:18, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's true, however I don't believe 'first Fooian killed in an aircraft accident' confers that inherent notability. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:48, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Romania-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 09:55, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 09:56, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - not notable. Being killed in an accident is not an achievement. Just because we have other articles that need deleting is no reason to keep this one. This is no more notable that the first Romanian killed in a car accident, the first Romanian killed in a bathtub accident, the first Romanian killed in a tennis accident, etc. - Ahunt (talk) 11:27, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to 1912 in aviation (or it could be used to expand Aviation in Romania with a proper timeline). It's a minor footnote in Romanian aviation, but first people killed in various subcategories are included in such timelines. --Colapeninsula (talk) 13:24, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: I don't read Romanian and am relying on Google Translate here, but it seems that Lt. Caranda was regarded as a hero at the time of his death, both for being an aviation pioneer and maybe entertainer, and for being the first casualty of aviation in Romania. There is a street named after him in Bucharest, the Romanian capital, and maybe a statue there as well (can't confirm via Translate), and maybe also a school. These, plus nontrivial coverage in multiple sources on the centenary of his death, suggests lasting notability. Ivanvector (talk) 16:27, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep - Ivanvector's findings suggest there to be some genuine notability here, but I'd like to see a little more. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 00:15, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I added one book source. It seems to me that Caranda was notable not just as the first person to die in an airplane from Romania, but he was a member of a pioneering pilot school in Bucharest associated with other famous aviators. So he wasn't just a minor footnote, but rather appears to have been one of the key players in early Romanian aeronautics. Steven Walling • talk 20:03, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Aviation in Romania.TheLongTone (talk) 00:43, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - aside from the traces of his memory today (street and obelisk), we have in-depth coverage indicating just how significant an event his death was.
As an aside, let me say I take a middle position regarding firsts. I don't think every first is notable - but a first that is also covered by reliable sources is. If the first air crash death from, say, Ghana or Cambodia or Slovenia wash't recorded, or if all we have is a name and a date, then I would say those individuals don't merit a separate article. Coverage of Caranda goes beyond that.
We do know the name of the first Romanian killed in World War I: lieutenant-colonel Gheorghe Poenaru-Bordea (soldier) (not to be confused with Gheorghe Poenaru-Bordea (archaeologist)), killed August 14, 1916. And there is a little coverage of him online. So an article waits to be started. - Biruitorul ^Talk 19:57, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.