View source for Talk:American Airlines Flight 331

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==METAR==

There seems to be a discrepancy in the METAR between [[http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/MKJP/2009/12/22/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA&theprefset=SHOWMETAR&theprefvalue=1  Wunderground] and [http://www.srh.noaa.gov/data/METAR/MKJP_sum.txt NOAA]. The Wunderground METARS consistently show visibility in the tens of thousands of metres. AFAIK, Wunderground is a RS, not sure who NOAA are or their provenance. [[User:Mjroots|Mjroots]] ([[User talk:Mjroots|talk]]) 14:06, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

NOAA are the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, a US government agency.  They are an authoritative weather source for flight operations.  I don't know why the Wunderground site states RVRs in the tens of thousands, but it is incorrect.  RVRs are never that high. [[User:Britney1973|Britney1973]] ([[User talk:Britney1973|talk]]) 14:49, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

:It seems for whatever reason, METARs from MKJP (regardless of source) have the first digit of certain groups repeated. [[User:HkCaGu|HkCaGu]] ([[User talk:HkCaGu|talk]]) 02:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

METAR data may be usefull, but it makes the article hard to read and it violated wikis standards [[User:Psychocadet|Psychocadet]] ([[User talk:Psychocadet|talk]]) 18:21, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

:Agree, and that's why I did what I did. I see full translation as unnecessary, especially repeating the full name of the airport twice. Temp, DP and QNH are not too relevant. Saying 320 degrees and not northwest is too cryptic. [[User:HkCaGu|HkCaGu]] ([[User talk:HkCaGu|talk]]) 18:57, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
:However I do not agree of wiping out everything. That they landed in rain and tail wind (because only Runway 12 has ILS, and the weather wasn't VFR) is and will definitely be determined relevant. The basic elements should be included with a reference to original undecoded METARs. We just can't "explain" and "analyze" the info due to WP:OR. [[User:HkCaGu|HkCaGu]] ([[User talk:HkCaGu|talk]]) 19:11, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

::Wouldn't METAR data itseld be considiered a primary source? Also, the raw data is useles to the average reader. As to "explaining and analyzing", it's better to cite a reliable source such as [http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/12/23/336556/picture-kingston-weather-poor-at-time-of-american-737-overrun.html this one], or a similar one, that does the "explaining and analyzing" for us. - [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 19:24, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

:::The Wunderground and NOAA sites are not primary sources. The actual METARs are issued by the airport authorities, they are the primary source. I agree that a METAR without translation would not add much to the article for readers who don't understand the code, hence the translation. This is not synthesis as the source quoted shows the translation of each part of a METAR. In this case, it points towards the runway being wet as there had been recent rain (a contributory factor). I've heard on Pprune that the aircraft was landed hot and long, but this has not been added to the article as it is not from a source which Wikipedia deems reliable enough. Personally, I think that the METAR does add to the article. Perhaps it could be in a (sub)section of its own? [[User:Mjroots|Mjroots]] ([[User talk:Mjroots|talk]]) 19:40, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

::::Primary source or not (and I'm not conviced it isn't), the METAR data is really just a distraction, and the info provided is available in better sources, as above. I've not seen it used in other accident articles, but it may not have been relevant in most of them. The editied information in a previous version is certainly better than having the raw data there now, explained or not. WP is a genreal encylopedia; if nothing, place the raw data in a foot note, where it won't distract from te article, but is there for the few people who would understand it. - [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 21:21, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

:::::An alternative method of dealing with the METAR is to be found in the [[British Airways Flight 38]] article - see ref#23. I'm happy to adopt that method here if it is the only way of keeping the info. [[User:Mjroots|Mjroots]] ([[User talk:Mjroots|talk]]) 21:46, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

::::::All of it, not just the raw METAR data? That's even better than my suggestion! - [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 22:03, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

The METAR data makes it hard to read the article... the info should be summarized and the full metar should be cited as a source. The METAR should be removed right away. [[User:Psychocadet|Psychocadet]] ([[User talk:Psychocadet|talk]]) 02:26, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

:There is no immediate rush. Due to the holidays I'm not doing as much on here at the moment. You have the example of how the METAR was handled on BA038 and I'll not mind if someone else does the honours. Both the METAR and SPECI can go on a sub-page of the article - [[American Airlines Flight 331/METAR]] rather than a sub-page of the talk page on BA038. [[User:Mjroots|Mjroots]] ([[User talk:Mjroots|talk]]) 20:43, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
::well I for one like the METAR info and I have seen it in other articles too. I didn't think it took up much space or was unencyclopedic... more to the point all this fussing over its usage has led to a current page where there is NO mention of weather except to briefly quote survivors. This page needs to explain the weather in one sense or another because it was a factor. I also think NOAA is an RS at least. And also considering that there is an established and universal method for translating METARs, then I don't think putting a translated verion on the page is OR at all. [[Special:Contributions/66.220.124.56|66.220.124.56]] ([[User talk:66.220.124.56|talk]]) 23:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
:::I've added a brief mention of the METAR to the article, with the actual METAR / SPECI quoted in the ref, with a translation on the dedicated subpage. [[User:Mjroots|Mjroots]] ([[User talk:Mjroots|talk]]) 07:12, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

==Flight number retired??==

After such an incident, shouldn't AA reired the flight number? Also, I still see AA331 still scheduled to operate between MIA and KIN today and tomorrow per AA flight stats. So, shouldn't still be "is" instead of "was"? [[User:Snoozlepet|Snoozlepet]] ([[User talk:Snoozlepet|talk]]) 21:26, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
:if no one dies I doubt they worry about it. [[Special:Contributions/66.220.124.56|66.220.124.56]] ([[User talk:66.220.124.56|talk]]) 22:16, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
::And flight number retirement usually takes a few months. [[User:HkCaGu|HkCaGu]] ([[User talk:HkCaGu|talk]]) 02:30, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
:::AA doesn't always retire flight numbers anyway- I've taken [[American Airlines Flight 1]] several times, though I wasn't yet born in '62. [[User:Courcelles|Courcelles]] ([[User talk:Courcelles|talk]]) 16:41, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
::::Right now, AA uses the flight number 331 but not on the [[Washington]]-[[Miami]]-[[Kingston]] route. It is now a [[New York-LaGuardia]]-[[Chicago-O'Hare]] route. [[User:Mr786|Mr786]] ([[User talk:Mr786|talk]]) 07:00, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

==hull loss==

just look at the pics... but what is the proceedure for announcing a hull loss on wp? [[Special:Contributions/66.220.124.56|66.220.124.56]] ([[User talk:66.220.124.56|talk]]) 22:17, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

:Same as everything else on Wikipedia. [[WP:V|Verified]] by a [[WP:RS|reliable source]], which I've done. [[User:Mjroots|Mjroots]] ([[User talk:Mjroots|talk]]) 06:49, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

::Why not just say broke up, since from the pics it's what is shown. [[Special:Contributions/76.66.193.225|76.66.193.225]] ([[User talk:76.66.193.225|talk]]) 09:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

This is a quote from the source: <blockquote>
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT:   
 damaged beyond repair 
On landing runway 12 at Norman Manley International Airport, the 737 ran beyond the end of the paved sur....The aft fuselage folded and the right engine seprated (sic) resulting in irrepairable (sic)damage.
</blockquote>
That is just as good as saying, "Hull Loss".--[[User:Hourick|Hourick]] ([[User talk:Hourick|talk]]) 21:51, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

=={{tlx|coord}} in infobox is not displaying==

In fact, I have not found a single instance of an air crash article with this infobox where this works.  Any help appreciated. --[[User:Mareklug|Mareklug]] <sup>[[User talk:Mareklug|<b>talk</b>]]</sup> 00:09, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
: I think I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Infobox_Aircraft_occurrence&diff=333693477&oldid=333501088 fixed] it.  Please check some of the other articles and make sure there were no unintended consequences. [[User:Suffusion of Yellow|Suffusion of Yellow]] ([[User talk:Suffusion of Yellow|talk]]) 00:52, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

==Airport location==

Normany Manley Airport is located on the [[Palisadoes]], a thin strip of sand that separates Kingston Harbour for the Caribbean Sea. The first few miles of the road leading from Kingston proper to the airport runs along a very thin portion of the strip, like a natural causeway, where one can sea both the harbor and the Caribbean. The strip widens at the point where the airport is loscated, then narrows again for a few miles till it ends at Port Royal. As of twenty years age, the road runs along the Caribbean side of the Palisadoes past the airport on the right. Thus, unless they've re-routed the road since then, which I doubt, the airport is entirely on the harbor side of the Palisadoes. I've clarified this in the text, with a cite from the airport's website re: the airport being adjacent to the harbor. - [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 22:15, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

:You were mistaken in your clarification. As is clear from any satellite mapping service, the airport's RWY 12 ends towards oceanside, and that is where the aircraft came to rest. The aircraft, according to ASN, landed on RWY 12, which is the only one with ILS, then broke the perimeter fence and crossed the Norman Manley Highway, ending up on the rocky beach. This could only mean oceanside. Plus I saw the lighthouse like structure in the background of the crash photos, which on Wikimapia is identified as an animal quarantine station, and further confirms the oceanside location of the wreckage. --[[User:Mareklug|Mareklug]] <sup>[[User talk:Mareklug|<b>talk</b>]]</sup> 22:18, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

:OK thanks, there was no previous mention in the article that the plane had crossed the highway, and I didn't read all the reports. Everything else I stated is correct, as the airport itself is on the harbor side, such as that is. And technically, it's the sea, not ocean. - [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 23:13, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
::hello i'm the one who orginally wrote "kingston's harbour" and I did that mostly for ease of wl and clarity of explanation. Beleive me I knew even then that the site was on the sea side of the airport and not the harborside. I chose to mention the harbor because I felt it gave a better local and intimate accuracy to the article and made for a more topical wl. Like people already know Jamaicia is in the carribbean but they are more likely to not know there is a Kingston Harbor and it has a decent wp of it own. So anyways I also think that harbor can be considered a regional term for a large city like kingston and basically, if one side of a sandbar is in the harbor I think the other side can also be included in the larger definition of a metro harbor! I'm sure the harbor patrol and everything else is the same for both sides of the ithmus... so I will try to find langauge to satify both ends of the deal. [[Special:Contributions/66.220.124.56|66.220.124.56]] ([[User talk:66.220.124.56|talk]]) 23:25, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

==Crash image==

I'm not sure whether or not the rationale holds up for using the fuzzy night time ''Associated Press'' image, but if we must use a copyright image, there are much better ones around, taken in daylight.--'''[[User:Lester|<span style="color:green">Lester</span>]]''' 06:00, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

==Year==

No where in the article do you say the date of the crash, this should be in the summary.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/109.186.39.214|109.186.39.214]] ([[User talk:109.186.39.214|talk]]) 15:08, 30 July 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:It is in the Infobox at the top right, but you are correct it should also be inthe Lead. I'll add it. - [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 16:13, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

==Spanish news releases==
For an article in Spanish, here are some news releases:
*"[http://aa.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2815 DECLARACIÓN DE AMERICAN AIRLINES CON RELACIÓN AL VUELO 331 Comunicado #1 @ 11:35 p.m. Hora Central]." ([http://www.webcitation.org/6AeOU6Ten Archive])
*"[http://aa.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2816 DECLARACIÓN DE AMERICAN AIRLINES CON RELACIÓN AL VUELO 331 Comunicado #2 @ 1:10 a.m. Hora Central]." ([http://www.webcitation.org/6AeOVra1c Archive])
*"[http://aa.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2817 AMERICAN ORGANIZA A SUS EQUIPOS CARE DE ASISTENCIA A FAMILIAS, PARA ASISTIR A AQUELLOS AFECTADOS POR EL ACCIDENTE DEL VUELO 331 Comunicado #3 @ 4:35 a.m. Hora Central]." ([http://www.webcitation.org/6AeOY8Au1 Archive])
[[User:WhisperToMe|WhisperToMe]] ([[User talk:WhisperToMe|talk]]) 15:46, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

== Notability Tag ==

This crash fails the [[WP:NOTNEWSPAPER|Wikipedia is not a newspaper]] policy in that there is no enduring [[Wikipedia:Notability|notability]] event. The relevant guideline is [[WP:EVENT]] and that says the event should be a "''precedent or catalyst for something else of lasting significance''", none is apparent from the article or sources; that they usually have "''significant impact over a wide region, domain, or widespread societal group''" again none is apparent from the article or sources. and also "''Notable events usually receive coverage beyond a relatively short news cycle.''" all of the sources are from the month of the incident so no on going coverage. <span style="font-family:Lucida Sans;">'''[[User:LGA|<span style="color:#90EE90;">LGA</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:LGA|<sub style="color:#8B0000;">talk</sub>]]'''<sup style="margin-left:-4ex">[[Special:Contributions/LGA|<span style="color:#006400;">edits</span>]]</sup></span> 00:59, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
: There is the possibility that airworthiness directives etc. will come out of this. The Jamaicans have not seemed to have yet released their final report on this accident. [[User:WhisperToMe|WhisperToMe]] ([[User talk:WhisperToMe|talk]]) 05:18, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified {{plural:2|one external link|2 external links}} on [[American Airlines Flight 331]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=743781062 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100227035307/http://www.jacdec.de/news/news.htm to http://www.jacdec.de/news/news.htm
*Corrected formatting/usage for http://jcaa.gov.jm/NEWS_UPDATES/FINAL_REPORT_AA331/AA331%20FINAL%20REPORT%2002%20May%202014.pdf

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==[[American Airlines Flight 331/METAR]]==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #EDEAFF; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">
:''The following discussion is closed. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive top-->
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{{outcome|"American Airlines Flight 331/METAR" was deleted}}
The naming and existence of the article {{la|American Airlines Flight 331/METAR}} is under discussion, see [[talk:American Airlines Flight 331/METAR]]
* Nominated for deletion
* Nominated for merger
* Nominated for renaming
{{tlx|tb|talk:American Airlines Flight 331/METAR}}
-- [[Special:Contributions/65.94.171.217|65.94.171.217]] ([[User talk:65.94.171.217|talk]]) 06:02, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
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: ''The discussion above is closed.  <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] --></div><div style="clear:both;"></div>

== Links in See also section ==

{{Ping|Santamoly}}, following [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Deeday-UK#Re%3A_American_Airlines_Flight_331 our discussion], please do not re-add links [[Turkish Airlines Flight 1951]] and [[AIRES Flight 8250]] unless you can provide RS justifying such addition. None of the accident reports make such connection. Some speculation in an [https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/peopleandpower/2010/12/20101214104637901849.html Al Jazeera documentary] is not enough. However, I notice the whole Boeing/Ducommun dispute is already mentioned in the [[Boeing 737 NG]] article, and that could be expanded with also a link to the full documentary. --[[User:Deeday-UK|Deeday-UK]] ([[User talk:Deeday-UK|talk]]) 11:22, 8 May 2019 (UTC)