Talk:Ape

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Apes are monkeys

Correct? I heard this from some scientist, but when I come to this article to check, it's not clear. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 02:54, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

It all depends on what you mean by the terms "monkey" and "ape". In everyday English, the term "monkey" refers to a combination of Platyrrhini (New World monkeys) and Cercopithecoidea (Old World monkeys), which are not a 'natural' (i.e. monophyletic group). If by "monkey" you mean a member of the Simiiformes (simians), then New World monkeys, Old World monkeys and Hominoidea ("apes and humans" in everyday English) are all simians, so in this sense are all monkeys.

The reality is that the terms "monkey", "ape" and "human" are now used in different senses in different contexts, sometimes by the same author. So if "apes" = "hominoids" and "monkeys" = "simians", then apes are monkeys. But if "monkeys" = "New World monkeys" + "Old World monkeys", then apes are not monkeys.

Efforts to explain this properly in the relevant articles are constantly frustrated by editors who seem determined that only the strictly monophyletic sense of "monkey", "ape" and "human" are acceptable, and that the everyday English uses should be downplayed, or even declared wrong. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:30, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

That's too bad. Good explanation though. Descriptive vs. prescriptive language. Have to wait 100 years for those people to die out I guess. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 01:39, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Ah, but those people are immortal. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:09, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

@Peregrine Fisher and Gråbergs Gråa Sång: nice link! Indeed, it is a descriptive vs. prescriptive language issue. I can also point out Richard Dawkins' statements in The Ancestor's Tale (he of all people cannot be accused of being anti-evolution, and knows the phylogeny perfectly well):

• "To call a gorilla or a chimpanzee a monkey is a solecism." (p. 114)
• "the most obvious difference between apes and monkeys is the presence or absence of the tail" (p. 144)

(Page nos. are from the 2005 p/b edition.) Peter coxhead (talk) 09:50, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I'm sure he can be, this is the internet after all ;-). This reminds me of Nut (food). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:09, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Peregrine Fisher -- in strict cladistic terminology, an ape is a monkey (just as a mammal is a reptile, an amphibian is a fish, a bird is a dinosaur etc. etc.), but in traditional "grade" terminology (not strictly cladistic), an ape is not a monkey... AnonMoos (talk) 02:00, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

@AnonMoos: the point is not what the relationships of the clades are, but what they are called. Everyday and legal definitions of "fish" (e.g. when treated as food) do not include mammals, even though the clade that includes all kinds of fish includes mammals. (And WP:WikiProject Fishes does not include all them either.) The overwhelming usage of "fish" is not for the largest clade including all organisms that are traditionally called "fish" (which is Craniata or Vertebrata, depending on your point of view). Insisting on only using the everyday grade-based terms for the clades is not reflective of real world usage, and is as non-neutral as would be denying the clade relationships. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:23, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Birds seem to be becoming dinosaurs in descriptive language, so maybe Apes will be monkeys sooner than we think. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 02:32, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Dawkins, I gather, is being prescriptive, in saying that it is a solecism to say that apes are monkeys. What is wrong with saying that apes are monkeys? TomS TDotO (talk) 02:45, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

@TomS TDotO: there's nothing wrong with saying that in one usage of the terms, apes are monkeys, so long as you say that in another usage they are not. What is wrong is to attempt to impose one usage, which violates WP:NPOV. Wikipedia's task is to report, not innovate. If and when everyday English overwhelmingly treats apes as monkeys without qualification, then we should too. But not until then. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:07, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

I'll tell you what, I wish this article would state early in the lead that apes are monkeys, or apes aren't monkeys, or that apes may or may not be monkeys depending on how you look at it. I heard that scientist say apes are monkeys, and I went straight to wiki to double check, and wiki let me down. Monkey says apes are monkeys in the fourth para of the lead. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:09, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Both articles used to be clearer as to the different usages, but determined editors kept removing the non-cladistic usage. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:07, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Let's fight for what's right then! The lead! Huge paragraph, two huge bullet points in a row, and then two more huge paragraphs, that's redic! Starting from the beginning.

This current lead were the first para has 5 sentences, 4 commas, a colon and a semi colon.;: Ain't right! The quotes around "ape" are probably OK though. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 09:27, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

So, how does treat a statement from an authority like Dawkins that it is a solecism to say that apes are monkeys? Is it worth a separate article to explain that some people are adamant on one side or the other, and one is apt to be called ignorant in being on the wrong side. BTW, in the news i have often heard that a fish market was also selling animals. TomS TDotO (talk) 10:22, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

If we could find the correct info it would be cool to make a page just about how people disagree about the ape monkey thing. Then we could add a small link in the lead. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 16:58, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Notice that there's no disagreement about biological facts here, just disagreement about how far the usage of common English words should be modified in order to reflect the scientific perspective of cladistics (i.e. a purely terminological disagreement). There's already something about this at Phylogenetic nomenclature#Philosophy... -- AnonMoos (talk) 01:47, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

AIUI, this particular case is confined to English. English introduced a new word, "monkey", when we had a fine word, "ape". And somebody decided to be a prescriptionist: don't say "Barbary ape", don't call a gorilla a "monkey". Oops! TomS TDotO (talk) 05:12, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

It's perfectly true that before 19th-century collecting and taxonomic work, most English-speakers were doing pretty good if they could manage to distinguish "apes" (tailless) from "monkeys" (tailed) -- and also perfectly true that gibbons/siamangs/orangutans/gorillas/chimpanzees/humans form a valid taxonomic group, whether considered by cladistic or non-cladistic criteria. The grouping of barbary apes (macaques) alone together with gibbons/siamangs/orangutans/gorillas/chimpanzees/humans does not form a valid taxonomic group... AnonMoos (talk) 21:52, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

At one time, the English language didn't have the word "monkey". I assume that Europeans knew about Barbary "apes", and other Old World primates which they called "apes". It was a matter of centuries before they knew about chimps, gibbons, etc., or about lemurs, etc. When, how and why did English-speakers decide to distinguish between monkeys and apes? And to include New World monkeys with OW monkeys? When was it discovered that OW monkeys were more closely related to chimps, etc. than to NW monkeys? When did English speakers decide to care about that? TomS TDotO (talk) 02:14, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm starting to get confused again! Wish our articles made it clear. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 06:19, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

The article "Monkey" has a discussion on terminology. It seems to be correct. The question is whether it is clear. It is complicated. I'm no

expert, but my personal opinion is that too often prescrptionists don't know what they're talking about. TomS TDotO (talk) 07:19, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

A paragraph in the lead was moved as second paragraph under Name and terminology (7 January 2017 9:17), creating some repetition. These two first paragraphs have been edited since, but remaining quite repetitive. Most obvious is

• synonym for "monkey" … tailless … in particular.[ref name=EB11Ape, Encyclopædia Britannica]
• synonym for "monkey" …, particularly those without a tail.[ref name=EB11Ape, Encyclopædia Britannica]

--Dominique Meeùs (talk) 14:10, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Article is POV pushing that humans are apes

Webster's dictionary (the authority on defining English words) primarily defines apes as any of various large tailless semi-erect primates of Africa and southeastern Asia (such as the chimpanzee, gorilla, orangutan, or gibbon)[1]. None of the definitions of ape group humans with other primates. I understand that humans are as related to apes as apes are to each other, but humans did not inherit the defining ape phenotype shared by our cousins, and so attempts to redefine us as apes have not caught on. Note there's a parallel debate on whether birds are dinosaurs and here Webster added a note saying some people consider birds dinosaurs.[2] but this "humans are ape" POV is so fringe, Webster ignores it completely. And yet despite being an extreme minority view it is the DOMINANT view of this article, with someone reverting even my very tepid attempts at making the article more neutral.[3]. This is a clear violation of WP:NPOV and gives undue weight to fringe views. SamanthaG (talk) 21:47, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

We are apes. However unpleasant a notion it may be, it's not "fringe" or POV-pushing. - Sumanuil (talk) 22:20, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

I totally forgot that we are Webster's online branch, and can only put stuff into articles if that dictionary deigns to do so. Thanks for the heads-up, and let us know what we should do about Riemann zeta function to bring it in line with that source... --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 22:54, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

@SamanthaG:, are you aware that A) it is actually Wikipedia policy to lean towards, or "push the POV" of whichever view is most heavily corroborated by known and given evidence, and B) Webster's Dictionary is not a definitive, or appropriate, if not outright unreliable source for primate taxonomy? I mean, your insistence on relying on Webster's dictionary to countermand the obvious observation that humans are apes due to an overwhelmingly obvious relatedness founded in both anatomy and genomic comparisons is actually the opposite of your alleged claim of wanting to make these articles more neutral.--Mr Fink (talk) 23:06, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

But the dictionary is an authority on the definition of common words. If you only want to use taxonomy sources then you should rename the article "hominoids". But by insisting on using the common man's language, you must cede to their definitions. SamanthaG (talk) 03:26, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Please be aware that word-lawyering to disguise the fact that you can not be assed to produce a reliable source supports your claim that Webster's (online) dictionary magically vetoes what basic biology has said about humans being apes for centuries will not convince anyone other than yourself that you're right, let alone convince anyone that there is a magic super majority of scientists and experts in addition to yourself and Webster's dictionary that states that Hominidae is a paraphyletic group consisting of apes and the magically distinct humans.--Mr Fink (talk) 03:53, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

This is partially an artefact of the rules of Wikipedia- it's mostly because WP:Wikipedia isn't a dictionary so we don't normally have an article on words. The article isn't about the word 'ape' it's about hominoidea. The users look for that, most commonly using 'ape', so WP:COMMONNAME says that's what the article is called. This article does include what you're saying anyway. GliderMaven (talk) 17:09, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

SamanthaG -- the logic of cladistics when applied to species-relatedness trees deduced from genetic analysis basically requires humans to be apes. Of course, you could say that cladistics also requires birds and mammals to be reptiles, but those are very major transitions at the biological "class" level, while distinctiveness among humans and closely-related species is much less (which is why biology rejected the term Quadrumana). In any case, when scientists propose theories, they often aren't too concerned by definitions in general-purpose (non-specialist) dictionaries, which can lag far behind the latest scientific evidence. AnonMoos (talk) 00:05, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

The logic of cladistics requires humans to be in the same clad as apes but what we call that clad is entirely arbitrary and so is the insistence that all taxa be monophyletic. And cladistics is only one of several ways taxonomists organize life. If an alien came to Earth and saw a chimp, gorilla, orangutan, and a human, it would be immediately obvious that the human was the odd-one-out.SamanthaG (talk) 03:18, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Explain to us, then, your logic about why, since cladistics is arbitrary and thus, can be dismissed as wholly irrelevant, but Webster's (online) Dictionary is not, therefore is unimpeachable holy writ.--Mr Fink (talk) 03:53, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Cladistics simply identifies clades. It does not tell us what those clades are called. Scientists and dictionaries tell us what they're called and the article should just report on their definitions in a neutral way. Should we revise the fish article to include humans since humans are part of the fish clade? Should we edit the Homo Erectus article to include Homo Sapiens since our species is part of the Erectus clade? Should we edit the Europe article to include Asia since geology tells us that Eurasia is a single land mass? Are you aware that science is the not the only criteria when naming constructs and are you aware that cladistics is the not only criteria by which scientists name taxa? Have you heard of evolutionary taxonomy which allows for paraphyleyic groups? Cladistically humans are apes but morphologically we're not. There's a difference right? If everyone in my family is short but I'm over six feet tall, does that mean I'm short because I belong to a clade dominated by short people? SamanthaG (talk) 04:36, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Your use of the "Whataboutism" and "slippery slope" logical fallacies are noted. Your failure to provide a reliable source stating that Webster's (online) Dictionary supersedes the findings of taxonomy and cladistics is also noted, as is your inappropriate capitalization of the specific epithets of binomial names.--Mr Fink (talk) 04:51, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Again, cladistics is only one type of taxonomy and cladistics only claims that apes and humans share a specific taxon. Some scientists call all members of that taxon apes but other scientists and online Webster do not. The article should cover both definitions from a neutral point of view by avoiding POV terms like "non-human apes". SamanthaG (talk) 05:43, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Again, you're obfuscating the fact that you still can not be assed to provide a reliable source about who this magic super-majority of scientists who irrevocably insist that humans are not apes are, or that states the Webster's (online) Dictionary irrevocably countermands the statements made by the alleged minor minority of scientists who state that humans are apes.--Mr Fink (talk) 05:54, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Never claimed there was a super-majority of scientists denying humans are apes but it's not unusual for scientists to treat humans and apes as separate categories. In the The Great Human Diasporas by Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza and Francesco Cavalli-Sforza there's a section called The Kinship of Humans and Apes (pg 34). When describing Australopithecine it says "These creatures are very apelike, but also have some decidedly human features" (pg 30). Scientific American states "The most complete extinct-ape skull ever found reveals what the last common ancestor of all living apes and humans might have looked like, according to a new study."[[4]]BBC says "We still have not found the missing link between us and apes."[[5]] Paleoanthropologist John Hawks states "Humans aren't monkeys. We aren't apes, either."[[6]] SamanthaG (talk) 18:33, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

SamanthaG -- Cladistics isn't everything, but it's been the major organizing principle in biology for almost the past 50 years. In recent decades, except for a very few words covering very major "grade" levels ("fish", "amphibian", "reptile"), there has been a strong tendency for most classificatory words to either have their meanings brought in line with cladistics, or to be relegated to the realm of unscientific popular misnomers. These two alternatives apply also in the case of "ape"... AnonMoos (talk) 07:57, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the clear point is that both usages apply (I've pointed out before that Dawkins clearly uses both senses in his writings: see User:Peter coxhead/Info#Dawkins' use of "ape". NPOV requires that we clearly explain both usages: the traditional and still widely used one and the more recent scientific one. (We should not, of course, be neutral as to the placement of humans in the same clade as the "traditional apes".) The same broad issue arises in less emotive areas; for example, botanists use "berry" differently to the everyday use of "berry". It's not for Wikipedia to say which is 'correct', but to report all reliably sourced usages. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:37, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@AnonMoos: language like "unscientific popular misnomers" is not helpful, and shows very clearly a lack of commitment to a neutral point of view. I could equally say that calling a "strawberry" a "berry" is an unscientific popular misnomer - which it is, in that it's popular and not in line with scientific nomenclature (i.e. it's an "unscientific .. misnomer"). But both "berry" and "ape" have dual uses both of which are perfectly rational and clear in context and which should be neutrally presented. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:28, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Am I supposed to respond to the Jekyll Peter_coxhead of yesterday or the Hyde Peter_coxhead of today?? In any case, when people call whales and dolphins "fish", that's an unscientific popular misnomer (if it's meant to imply that those animals are more closely related to fish than other mammals are). Not sure what more delicately euphemistic term you think I should use instead. Anyway, there's no "neutrality" involved when it comes to deciding whether a specific meaning of a word is compatible with cladistic principles when the taxonomy is established -- the answer is 100% "no" or 100% "yes"... AnonMoos (talk) 14:11, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@AnonMoos: bad example: as Fish rightly says "Tetrapods emerged within lobe-finned fishes, so cladistically they are fish as well." "Fish" is actually a good example of a sensible use of a term for a grade. We are no more likely to stop using "fish" in this sense than to stop using "ape" for non-human hominoids. If I overhear a visitor to a zoo call a chimpanzee a "monkey", do I assume they know that Hominoidea is nested within Catarrhini, so chimpanzees are cladistically monkeys, or do I assume that they are wrong, as Dawkins says in the work I referred to above? Peter coxhead (talk) 20:49, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

The very assumption that words must correspond to cladistic principles violates neutrality. Taxonomy is only one way of classifying and cladistics is only one form of taxonomy. If a reliable source says trees are fish, then that's a legitimate POV that should be included in the fish article. Words only have the meaning the culture assigns them; they don't have to correspond to genetics, science or even logic. SamanthaG (talk) 17:14, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

@SamanthaG: your last sentence isn't quite right, I think. There isn't one "culture", one context. To keep to my less contentious example, "berry" has an everyday and a botanical meaning. If I'm giving a botanical description of a plant, I have to use "berry" in its technical sense. If I'm buying frozen mixed berries, I can't complain to the seller if I find strawberries, which are not botanically berries. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:09, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Good analogy, but I'm not sure if even the technical people agree humans are apes. From a purely scientific perspective, one could argue humans are not apes if one believes apes are a grade and not a clade or one may wish to use the term "ape" to describe what was once considered a clade. SamanthaG (talk) 19:13, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

The overwhelming majority of scientists agree that humans are in the clade hominoidea, and that humans are descended from apes, that's why both are covered by this article. GliderMaven (talk) 19:49, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Humans are apes. Get over it. Clean Arlene (talk) 08:43, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand the issue. No-one with any scientific knowledge disputes that humans and the group traditionally known as "apes" are placed in the same taxon and that traditional apes are a paraphyletic group. The issue is how to name such non-monophyletic groups. Some sources would prefer not to give them names, reserving names for monophyletic groups. Others see value in naming non-monophyletic groups. Since there are reliable sources taking each view, the article must abide by WP:NPOV.

As an example, Dawkins is well aware of the relationship between tradtional apes and humans, but he still uses "ape" in both ways – see User:Peter coxhead/Info#Dawkins' use of "ape". Peter coxhead (talk) 20:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

We are apes! You are an ape! Better an ape than … Common names are fine in context, scientific names refer to a verifiable description. ~ cygnis insignis 06:09, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

What "non-monophyletic group"? Apes/Hominoidea *are* a monophyletic group (clade), by definition: "a group of taxa composed only of a common ancestor and all of its lineal descendants". The person who refuses to consider the human genus as belonging to the group of Apes/Hominoidea, cannot consider Apes/Hominoidea a paraphyletic group either, since paraphyletic groups exclude a monophyletic subroup, not a single genus. Therefore, refusing to acknowledge the human genus as belonging to the group of Apes/Hominoidea is a refusal to acknowledge that we are subject to taxonomic classification and phylogeny. There may are philosophical grounds for considering us distinguished among the animal kingdom, but there are no grounds on which to deny that our bodies are biological. Cyrthazil (talk) 09:10, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

@Cyrthazil: actually the paraphyletic group that the common name "apes" applies to is not Hominoidea minus Homo but Hominoidea minus Hominina, but both would be paraphyletic, assuming that Hominina and Homo are monophyletic: a monophyletic genus is a monophyletic group. But the core point remains, as has been stated repeatedly: there is a scientific use of "apes" to refer to Hominoidea, and a common use of "apes" to refer to non-human hominoids, and reliable sources can be provided for both uses (the same one in the case of the Dawkins reference noted above). So to maintain WP:NPOV we must report both views. Humans are apes_scientific but not apes_common, so it's always important to be clear which sense is being used in any context. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:22, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Excellent. I'm glad we agree that the scientific use of the word "apes" refers to Hominoidea. So let's not try to scientifically justify the common and inaccurate use of the term. Cyrthazil (talk) 19:30, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

@Cyrthazil: inaccurate may be your view, but it's not a judgement for Wikipedia to make. To take the less emotional example given above, I could, but wouldn't, write that it's inaccurate to call a strawberry a berry. It would be inaccurate in a strictly botanical context, because a strawberry isn't a berry (botany), but botanists can't dictate how words are used in everyday language. Just as with berry, ape has two uses, and our task is to report on both maintaining WP:NPOV, and certainly not saying that one use is inaccurate. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:50, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Prefer preferred spelling

The preferred spelling of "catarrhine" is with two Rs. Please fix. 2601:200:C000:1A0:50A5:DDF:73A6:A4D3 (talk) 04:29, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done Peter coxhead (talk) 05:42, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

How are apes native to Africa and Southeast Asia?

The first sentence in the article claims that apes are native to Africa and Southeast Asia. Since humans are also apes (which is how it is treated in the article), the first sentence cannot be true. It is true that humans originated in Africa, but that doesn't mean they're native to Africa Pajo96 (talk) 15:46, 4 October 2021 (UTC) Pavle

I assume the article is using the term "ape" to exclude humans.--Mr Fink (talk) 15:53, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

A native species is a species that is found in a certain ecosystem due to natural processes, such as natural distribution and evolution. So humans originating in Africa, does mean that they're are native to Africa. But since it is unclear what exactly natural means when talking about ecology of humans their range outside of Africa is left out. The natural range is about the other extant species of apes besides humans - gibbons and orangutans in Southeast Asia; Chimpanzees, Bonobos and Gorillas in Africa.Kardoen (talk) 15:59, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't think the term "native" in the biological sense is useful applied to humans, since it is opposed to "introduced" meaning 'introduced by human agency as opposed to the species' own agency'. This makes no sense when "species" = "human". Peter coxhead (talk) 16:08, 4 October 2021 (UTC)