Template:Featured article is only for Wikipedia:Featured articles. This template must be substituted. Replace {{FAR ...}} with {{subst:FAR ...}}.

This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary.

Please note there is a scratchpad for this talk-page at Talk:Freemasonry/Scratchpad that may contain proposed changes

Discussion

; Archives
Archive 1	Archive 2
Archive 3	Archive 4
Archive 5	Archive 6
Archive 7	Archive 8
Archive 9	Archive 10

Previous discussions moved to Archive 13.

Unfinished Business

OK... As agreed, I have Archived the previous overly long talk page so that we can start fresh. Please list below any topics or sections that you feel we need to address. Blueboar 14:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Complete rewrite

This article needs a complete rewrite to incorporate the merge suggestions and to overcome the NPOV and factual disputes. Ardenn 17:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't need a complete rewrite. It needs a cleanup. Seraphim 19:40, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Seraphim, no need to completely rewrite as there is a lot of good stuff in the article as it is. OK, I might disagree with her about which exact parts need a clean up, and how exaclty to word that clean up, but that is how the editorial process works. You debate and exchange ideas back and forth until something can be agreed on. We will get there. Blueboar 19:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, the merge tags are for sections, so those sections will need to be worked on. Glad the persons so eager for their merge are so willing to put in all that hard work... ;~D Grye 21:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merger Tag

It belongs on the top of the article, it is not a simple merger of the entirety of the Anti-Freemasonry page into the Criticism, persecution, and prosecution section. Some of the information there if the merger carries out will be included in the history section here as well. Seraphim 00:16, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When last I checked, the discussion on the Anti-Masonry page is that it was a seperate valid article in its own right. This is especially true as people continue to work on the POV parts of that article. Thus, the majority of editors there no longer think it should be merged with/into this article (in fact you seem to be the only one still pushing the merge idea). In any event, the merge idea is likely to be shot down from both sides. So... if you dislike what the criticisms section that exists here has to say, do some editing. As far as I am concerned we can remove the tag completely. Blueboar 00:29, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's not true at all. JASpencer post from this morning "There is still a strong opinion from the non-Masonic editors that this article is a POV fork. I still concur with this. Althought the article has improved and the respect shown to non-Masonic editors has increased markedly, the fundamental flaw in the article is still present.". Just because the majority of people that edit the page are masons does not mean the POV Fork can be ignored. Once all the issues with the POV nature of that article are dealt with, we will see what is left (there are more merge issues going on over there seperate from the main freemasonry page). Seraphim 00:34, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, it does not belong at the top of the article. a vast majority of it will end up in that section. That section is the basis for the entire article, hence the merge tag in the first place. Leave it in the section, or rewrite the entire article. You may think you will put the article wherever you please, but the reality is it will be edited & re-edited until it is actually apt, & the natural place for the entire article wil be in said section. Grye 00:47, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And a resounding "no" to the entire merge idea from me. Improving the section here, sure. But merge, no. Read what I have to say in that Article's Talk pages. It stands on its own as a valid article in its own right.Blueboar 00:57, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That section WAS the basis for the entire article, the article is being fixed so it is not. Also it is indisputable that some issues like the Taxil Hoax are parts of freemasonry history, and will eventually need to be adressed in the "History of Freemasonry" section. "History" does not mean "History sans contravercial issues". Seraphim 01:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism accusations

SeraphimXI, I'm a little teed off with you. I find your vandalism accusations to be in poor taste. Please be civil. We need to work together to make this article work. Ardenn 01:00, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I find them to to violate WP:POINT as well. Ardenn 01:02, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am being civil. The merger debate is not only about one section, that is why the merge tag has been at the top of the article for so long. I've explained why it belongs at the top, and the responces are that it belongs in a section since the majority of the merger will end up in that section. By admitting that the majority and not the entierty of the change will end up in that section shows that placing the tag in that section is incorrect. After having that explained, after the users admit the merger is not entirely based around that section, and then they still insist on moving it to that section, that is called vandalism. Seraphim 01:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also like to point out that the violator of WP:Point would be whoever moves the merge tag from the top of the page where it has been for weeks. Seraphim 01:09, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Forgive me if i am wrong but arent tags suppose to be a majority decision? Tutmosis 01:16, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is why it is the Disputed tag. Seraphim 01:18, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just because it has been in a certain place for weeks does not mean that it hasn't been in the wrong place for weeks. & there's no violation in moving it to the section, but rather in removing it w/o consensus. Another violation would be a 3RR on your part, if someone else were to replace the tag, & you were to edit it agian. Oh, & how are you suddenly such an authority, after making the statement "I came here randomly, not knowing anything about the masons" on 29 January? Grye 01:21, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

People love quoting that line don't they :) It's talking in the past tense. Also there is no 3rr since it is vandalism. The merger tag was placed on the page in good faith, and the merge discussion is about merging the Anti-Freemasonry page into this page, not the Anti-Freemasonry page into the specific section. Also Consensus involves working together to get everyone's issues addressed. Something that has not been done yet. I'd also like to point out Grye that you yourself said "No, it does not belong at the top of the article. a vast majority of it will end up in that section" you said "a vast majority" which means that you agree that some of it will not end up in that section. Moving the tag from the top of the article to the top of a section changes the meaning of the tag from "It has been suggested that this article be merged with Anti-Freemasonry" to "It has been suggested that this section be merged with Anti-Freemasonry". The second statement is untrue. If you would like to suggest that that page be merged with that section, then you are entitled to do so, but that does not change the fact that it has also been suggested that the anti-freemasonry article be merged with the article as a whole. Seraphim 01:28, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]