Talk:Hunter Biden

"Right-wing conspiracy theories" are a strawman

The article makes it sound like the conspiracy theory that "Biden wanted the prosecutor fired to protect his son" is the brunt of the criticism against Hunter Biden. It's not — the accusation being levied first and foremost is that Hunter got the Burisma job only because he's the son of Joe Biden, as a way for Burisma to have greater influence on the US government. That has not been debunked, and the fact that Hunter has very little qualification to sit on the board seems to support this narrative.

By attacking the strawman in the description at the top, the article makes it sound like no impropriety is taking place. I propose the last paragraph to be changed to: "Biden has stirred up controversy by serving on the board of Burisma Holdings, a major Ukrainian natural gas producer, from 2014 to 2019. He has been accused of getting this job only because of his connection to Joe Biden, as a way for the company to gain more US political influence."

Mirek2 (talk) 09:28, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

If the brunt of the criticism is about potential nepotism then that is in and of itself weak sauce - "rich powerful mans son gets well paid job" is barely a criticism or a controversy (otherwise we'd be here all night dealing with Trump, Trumps kids and their partners, and Trumps donors).

As for his qualification and suitability: He is both an attorney and professional consultant employed to lead on corlorate governance best practice. Find one reliable source that says he is not qualified for that job based upon his past experience, qualification and background? You can't, because his background and qualification would lend itself to that role.

There are sources that discuss if it was appropriate, but these largely predate the conspiracy theories and are largely criticism from within the Democrat base so not some grand controversy. Koncorde (talk) 12:39, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

the accusation being levied first and foremost is that Hunter got the Burisma job only because he's the son of Joe Biden is incorrect. Nepotism has been ubiquitous in this world since forever, but that said, there isn’t even evidence of nepotism here, but even if there were and that’s all this is about, it wouldn’t be worth any attention. The real reason Hunter Biden has received any attention is to fabricate a transparent political smearjob against his father, and I suspect everyone will suddenly lose all interest in Hunter Biden within days now. soibangla (talk) 18:20, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

This isn't a Trump vs. Biden point. This is an objective point, that in no way shape or form has he been exonerated of wrongdoing, but that is how the article reads. The bias here is so obvious, and only leads to further polarization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.7.233.239 (talk) 20:47, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

He hasn't been exonerated because he hasn't been charged with anything. Instead the unsupported conspiracy theories have been debunked, repeatedly. Do you think if there was evidence of Biden (either) committing illegal acts it wouldn't have been presented already? Instead Trump was impeached and not a single witness called mentioned any legitimacy to the accusations against either Biden (nor where there any whistle blowers). Etc etc. This is not polarizing unless you want to believe that the smoke from Trump campaign is somehow evidence of a raging fire for Biden. Koncorde (talk) 21:56, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Should we change it from debunked to fringe or simply right wing conspiracy theories? I think half the country would not agree with this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Allsparkwars1 (talk • contribs) 20:38, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

We say "debunked" because that is what they are. Wikipedia is not censored in the interests of political correctness. XOR'easter (talk) 21:51, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Mirek2 is absolutely correct. Today we learn that a hard drive containing Hunter Biden's emails was delivered to the FBI, and a copy to Rudy Giuliani's lawyer, and another copy was obtained by the NY Post. The Biden campaign does not dispute the authenticity of the contents of this hard drive, which also contains private photos and videos. Emails recovered from the hard drive make it clear that Hunter Biden was selling influence, and access to Joe Biden. So, far from being "debunked", the concerns that Hunter Biden accepting a position on the board of Burisma was improper (at a minimum, something that created a conflict of interest for his father) were justified. This article puts a straw man argument in the first paragraph in order to make it seem like any concerns about Hunter Biden's actions were debunked. The conspiracy theories are not enumerated, so the wording misleads the reader into thinking that all concerns of improper actions are conspiracy theories that are "debunked". I've proposed to change the wording to this sentence many times (to ... has been the subject of concerns...), but a brigade of reputation defenders has fought valiantly to keep any negative information out of this article. https://nypost.com/2020/10/14/email-reveals-how-hunter-biden-introduced-ukrainian-biz-man-to-dad/ Tvaughan1 (talk) 18:46, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

So are we confirming that Ukrainian government agencies were trying to corruptly shakedown Burisma, including the creation of formal legal investigations after earlier attempts failed.

That this dated back to 2006, and the letter dated requested Hunters assistance only happened after he got the job?

And the man in charge, or at least a significant party to the corrupt charges, was subsequently fired?

And that the demand for him being fired came from multiple national agencies, of which Joe Biden led the negotiations to eventually oust the prosecutor?

But an email to Hunter Biden asking him for help is evidence of him acting inappropriately? Koncorde (talk) 19:22, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

The US Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee is investigating to validate the information provided by the whistleblower. The emails revealed that Hunter Biden introduced the then-vice president Joe Biden to a top executive at Ukrainian natural gas firm Burisma Holdings less than a year before he pressured government officials in Ukraine to fire prosecutor Viktor Shokin, who was investigating the company. The Post report revealed that Biden, at Hunter’s request, met with Vadym Pozharskyi in April 2015 in Washington, D.C. “Dear Hunter, thank you for inviting me to DC and giving an opportunity to meet your father and spent [sic] some time together. It’s realty [sic] an honor and pleasure,” the email read. An earlier email from May 2014 also showed Pozharskyi, reportedly a top Burisma executive, asking Hunter for “advice on how you could use your influence” on the company’s behalf, the Post reported. So it is clear that "debunked conspiracy theories" is not a fair, accurate or WP:NPOV summary of the situation as we know it today. Tvaughan1 (talk) 20:08, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

The New York Post is not a reliable source. As mentioned below, their reporting on this specific matter has already been called into question. "Debunked conspiracy theories" continues to be a fair and NPOV description. XOR'easter (talk) 20:22, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

New york post is a reliable source. How about we rename Trump Russia Conspiracy Theories? New York Times said there was nothing going on.2600:8805:C880:3D7:24F5:23DD:1EDF:7B53 (talk) 23:37, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 October 2020

Please add to the Personal section:

Hunter Biden served as the Board Chair of the United Nations World Food Program USA (WFP USA), which was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2020. He also served as chair of the fundraising wing for WFP-USA.

Sources:

https://www.wfpusa.org/news-release/vice-president-joe-biden-and-world-food-program-usa-honor-former-senator-bob-dole-for-his-leadership-in-the-fight-against-hunger/

https://www.wfpusa.org/multimedia/hunter-and-beau-biden-discuss-wfp-usas-live-below-the-line-challenge-with-msnbcs-andrea-mitchell/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/reliable-source/wp/2014/08/07/hunter-biden-amateur-cook-and-embarrassing-dad/ Emilyr2012 (talk) 09:35, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. We do not need to mention they were awarded a Nobel Peace Prize in his article, unless linked prominently by third-party sources. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 11:21, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

New York Post story

The New York Post recently ran a story that claimed they have obtained emails which show Hunter Biden arranged meetings between Joe Biden and a senior official from a Ukrainian energy firm. There are questions about the emails' authenticity and the reliability of the story in general. In the interest of WP:BLP and since NYPost is not considered a reliable source, let's not add information about this story to the article until there are better sources. – Anne drew 19:24, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

I concur. XOR'easter (talk) 19:37, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

References

Seems to be a very odd series of events, too. What are the odds that Hunter Biden, who lives in California, would take his computer that contains information where he talked to the 2nd most powerful man in the world to a small computer shop that is not even in his own state? No reliable sources have confirmed these events. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 22:21, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

The AP writeup makes it pretty clear that the authenticity of the e-mails is very much in question. And according to the NYT,

Last month, United States intelligence analysts contacted several people with knowledge of the Burisma hack for further information after they had picked up chatter that stolen Burisma emails would be leaked in the form of an “October surprise.” Among their chief concerns, according to people familiar with the discussions, was that the Burisma material would be leaked alongside forged materials in an attempt to hurt Mr. Biden’s candidacy — as Russian hackers did when they dumped real emails alongside forgeries ahead of the 2017 French elections — a slight twist on Russia’s 2016 playbook when they siphoned leaked D.N.C. emails through fake personas on Twitter and WikiLeaks.

XOR'easter (talk) 06:45, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

The NY Post story appears to be a medley of baseless claims and questionable evidence. Politicised news have no place in Wikipedia. Glucken123 (talk) 09:48, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

• The background is also, to put it charitably, wildly implausible. Oh, sure, it's possible that a computer store would go to right wing hacks rather than the well-known and easily contacted family that would very obviously be able to pay their bill, but it's rather more likely that Rudy Giuliani, whose associates include known Russian intelligence agents, has been given data stolen by the GRU - because that is exactly what happened with WikiLeaks in 2016, and the Russians are not exactly known for changing a winning formula. Guy (help! - typo?) 10:01, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Exactly. Additionally, it is useful to look at Washington Post's investigations into the matter. NY Post has been complaining about social media censorship (which I also found a bit extreme - especially on Twitter), but on the other hand there is absolutely no doubt that most of the "evidence" presented in the article seems false, misleading and the result of hacking (again!). Therefore, I agree with you that NY Post's leaving us with no choice here. This is garbage. Glucken123 (talk) 14:41, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Similar situation to the Steele Dossier, in my opinion. Nobody wanted to publish the dossier, but after Buzzfeed did then the mainstream outlets reported that Buzzfeed reported it. The claims in the story could be dubious, but it wouldn't be appropriate to not report on the subsequent firestorm of stories from many reputable sources. The overall impact of this story on history is massive, because let's not forget that Trump was impeached because of his actions regarding the allegations. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:02, 15 October 2020 (UTC) Mr Ernie (talk) 15:02, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Mr Ernie, no, not the same at all. The allegation that Hunter Biden influenced his father to get Shokin removed to protect his employer has been extensively discussed in the past, and is well known to be false. Removing Shokin was the official policy of the US, EU, IMF and World Bank. All of them were calling for Shokin's removal before Joe Biden ever got involved. The first motion to remove Shokin was introduced in July 2015 by Yehor Soboliev. Removing Shokin made it more likely that Burisma would be prosecuted, not less.

We should cover the story, but we should follow the reliable independent sources, which point this out, and also point out that the source of the purported (and unverified) emails is very likely the Kremlin. Guy (help! - typo?) 15:22, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you. We can't bury any mention of this, because it actually is hugely important, but not necessarily for the reasons the NYPost is reporting. There's also the secondary effect it is having on "censorship," as Trump's campaign twitter and the House Judiciary twitter have been locked for sharing it. That is YUGE - a company limiting what official government accounts can share because of potential misinformation. The articles I linked have good details.

And yes, it is the same as the Steele Dossier, including the potential that Russian disinformation could be behind this too. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:29, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Mr Ernie, it's not hugely important, it's actually very trivial. But it's in the news and it looks weird not to discuss it.

US involvement in Ukraine has been less than stellar (e.g. Rick Perry acting as fixer for donors to get a multi-million-dollar gas deal), but the claim that Joe Biden did anything to protect Hunter's income has been extensively investigated and is false. Unlike the idea that the Trump regime has pushed for Ukraine to open an investigation into Hunter Biden and Burisma, which they had repeatedly not done due to lack of evidence. No doubt they are disappointed that the investigation only covers events before Hunter Biden joined the board. My personal belief is that the involvement of serious people like Aleksander Kwaśniewski probably represented something of a turning point in Burisma, though he himself ias a - ahem - colourful character. Hunter Biden was actually tasked with looking at corporate governance policies in the firm. But I'm not an expert on Eastern European oil and gas oligarchies. Guy (help! - typo?) 15:31, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

I’m not sure what you are responding to. I’ve never claimed Hunter Biden did anything inappropriate. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:48, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

FWIW, the New York Post story has been shared over 321,000 times on Facebook and accumulated 1.2 million engagements [1], so whatever they said they were doing about "throttling its spread" was probably not a very drastic move. Twitter was following a pre-existing policy they've had for two years and which has impacted left-leaning sites too. I would be hesitant to write article text about this until the partisan sound-and-fury had been analyzed and given context by good secondary sources. XOR'easter (talk) 16:15, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

I think it should be added if it was Don JR or Eric the admins and editors would be having meltdowns..Guitarguy2323 (talk) 19:23, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

We know a bout Don Jr and Eric's actual corruptions and are not "having meltdowns". Stick with discussing Hunter Biden on this talk page. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:11, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Guitarguy2323, you think the editors of Fox would be enraged if it turned out that Trump's children were using the family name to score business deals overseas? Guy (help! - typo?) 22:29, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes but i have seen articles that you and other admins have an idealogical bias because you hate fox and all conservatives with a fiery passion when you are supposed to be neutral. The fact you wont mention this story shows how bought by the democratic party you are. even one of your co founders called you out.Guitarguy2323 (talk) 03:21, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

The beginning is slanted and contains opinion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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" He has been the subject of debunked right-wing conspiracy theories concerning his business dealings in Ukraine"

Considering this is once more in the news, to use language like "debunked right-wing conspiracy theories" is paper-thin, and obviously BIASED. In other words, this is DNC propaganda. Why is it "right-wing"? Why is it a conspiracy?

THIS IS PRE PACKAGED DNC TALKING POINTS

Did Hunter's lawyer write this, complete and total hackery? how dumb do you think we are?

Does the DNC edit your site nowadays?

This bias is so blatant, you have ZERO credibility any longer There is plenty behind the Hunter Biden story, you recite DNC talk points This is outrageous, do you think we are retarded?

I'm in journalism I dont vote I dont care but this is BLATANT propaganda and disinformation — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seekingtruth1776 (talk • contribs) 20:54, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

If you are in journalism you will understand the need to verify the things you report or else you are just boosting the noise of the biggest voice. Wikipedia does that by relying on the coverage of already well established media sources with decades, if not centuries, of history covering news factually.

Also you should vote. And you probably should care too. Koncorde (talk) 21:04, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lawyer

The first description of him is a Lawyer, however nothing in the article suggests he ever practiced law and so it appears undue to use that as the first description of him. I'm not suggesting describing him as a lobbyist as that could appear to have negative connotations, but perhaps "businessman" is a more accurate description of him. Pi (Talk to me!) 22:37, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Multiple articles state that Hunter was of counsel at the law firm Boies Schiller Flexner. I found that he is admitted to practice law in Connecticut as of 2014 - https://federalnewsnetwork.com/government-news/2014/10/bidens-son-faces-no-bar-review-after-discharge/ Some of everything (talk) 00:18, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Fox news addition

The paragraph added re Burisma bribes has two refs, Reuters and Fox. WP has found Fox not to be reliable for science or political topics. Reuters is reliable but that article says right off: "Ukraine alleges $5 million bribe over Burisma, no Biden link." I have (again) deleted this section. The first editor that deleted it was correct. Gandydancer (talk) 18:17, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

How is Fox News not a reliable source? Mother Jones and Media Matters are used here everyday — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guitarguy2323 (talk • contribs) 19:24, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

The discussions leading to community consensus about all of these sources can be found via WP:RSP. XOR'easter (talk) 19:45, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

I just want to point out the obvious bias that is occurring on this supposedly "unbiased" platform. FOX is considered to be biased. The New York Post is "unreliable". However, MotherJones, The Daily Beast, Playboy, PolitiFact, and Slate, among many others, are considered to be reliable. Apparently, if a paper has a clear left-ward slant, they are reliable. If they have a right-ward slant, they are unreliable. This bias is continued in the lead of this article. Some editors on this page have said that "He has been the subject of debunked right-wing conspiracy theories" is somehow a factual and unbiased statement.

I'm unsure how this story could possibly be debunked when there is now new evidence reopening the debate about Hunter Biden's business dealings in Ukraine. To reflect the now open debate, the lead should be changed to read "He has been the subject of controversies about his claimed acceptance of money in return for providing intimate access to United States Foreign Policy." This is clearly the less-biased of the two options. Writing the statement this way doesn't assume he is guilty, doesn't mention Joe Biden, and doesn't assume the accuracy of the accusations. But unlike the original statement, it does indicate there IS clearly a controversy and that Hunter Biden is at the center of it. That is objectively true.

As multiple editors have now agreed, the New York Post story has not been verified, but it also hasn't been debunked. So the lead is clearly false until this changes one way or the other. NationalInterest16 (talk) 22:09, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

As WP:RSP makes clear, the Wikipedia community has deemed plenty of left-leaning sources unreliable for our purposes. And per our policy on Biographies of Living Persons, unfounded allegations are not suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia articles. Nothing that has transpired this week has made the existing text inaccurate. XOR'easter (talk) 22:22, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

NationalInterest16, I was personally responsible for getting Occupy Democrats deprecated. It's not about political lean, it's about factual reliability. Guy (help! - typo?) 22:24, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

We don't have to wait for the NY Post article to be "debunked". The claims are sketchy at best, and the background on it makes it appear to be Russian disinformation given to Derkach, who then gave it to Giuliani, who then went to a Murdoch-owned rag. There are no needed changes to Hunter Biden's article to make at this time. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:31, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

"Sketchy at best"? We now have the Senate Homeland Security & Governmental Affairs Committee investigating the emails. Not to mention, we don't even have a denial from the Biden campaign that the meeting didn't take place. They have also not denied the veracity of the emails. Again, if there is an ongoing investigation by the US Senate and FBI, clearly the story is not "debunked". "Debunked" would assume the investigation has been completed.

The lead should at least be changed to show that an investigation is ongoing. That would be a fair and unbiased approach. I agree that we can't jump to conclusions, but that should be true in both directions. Assuming the story is correct is jumping to a conclusion. Assuming the story is false is jumping to a conclusion. Let's not do either. NationalInterest16 (talk) 14:34, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

We know for a fact is that Burisma was hacked in January. The metadata on the files allegedly from this laptop shows that they were created after the laptop was allegedly dropped off at the repair shop. The guy who turned in the laptop has contradicted himself several times already. This whole story stinks of dezinformatsiya. The allegations appear to many, including U.S. intelligence, to be fabricated. The Senate committees are led by Republicans, who are up for election in 18 days. Hardly impartial. Suggesting that there is anything legitimate to any of this would be WP:UNDUE weight and include a nasty smear, just to appear "fair and unbiased"? No, adding the suggestion that this is real would be quite biased. Links:

https://thehill.com/policy/technology/technology/521156-us-intelligence-analysts-predicted-stolen-burisma-emails-would

https://www.ibtimes.sg/hunter-biden-forensic-data-reveals-emails-were-created-months-after-laptop-was-dropped-off-repair-52517 – Muboshgu (talk) 16:01, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Hunter Biden/Ukraine

Emails were published that prove Biden met with the Ukrainians. This article claims that Biden’s connections to Burisma are a merely a “debunked right wing conspiracy theory.”

For the sake of Wikipedia’s credibility, neutralize the overt left leaning bias displayed by this article. Lightuponthenations (talk) 18:53, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Nothing published to date proves anything untoward. We know that Joe Biden "met with the Ukrainians". He was implementing a US foreign policy strategy that everyone, including Republican Senators, supported. XOR'easter (talk) 19:45, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

As far as I know, the article never claims that Hunter Biden did not meet with Ukrainians. The article mentions a conspiracy theory on two occasions: that Hunter Biden is the subject of right-wing conspiracy theories, and that recordings released by Andrii Derkach do not support the conspiracy theory that Joe Biden wanted the Ukrainian prosecutor fired to protect his son. Which of these mentions are you complaining about here? AlexEng^(TALK) 22:00, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Lightuponthenations, There's no need for us to see any Russian-hacked emails to know that Biden met with Ukrainians., The press were there. He went to Ukraine to promote official US (and European Union and International Monetary Fund and World Bank) policy of removing the corrupt Viktor Shokin from office. In doing so he made it more likely that Burisma would be investigated. The first motion to remove Shokin for corruption was in July 2015, months after he took office, and he was kicked out by an overwhelming majority vote int he Ukrainian Parliament in March 2016, after not much more than a year, during which time he did not prosecute a large number of corrupt people (or indeed some murderers). Coincidentally he accumulated very large sums of money and jewels and multiple passports during this time. I am sure the two are unrelated.

What we don't know is why a laptop containing documents purporting to be private emails of Hunter Bidens ended up in a computer shop in Delaware shortly after reports that the GRU had hacked data from Burisma and others. Giuliani seems to know a lot about it, but I am sure none of it came from his buddy Andrii Derkach, because Giuliani is way too smart to talk to Russian agents, right? Guy (help! - typo?) 22:44, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

• Update: White House knew that Giuliani was being fed Russian disinformation. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/giuliani-biden-ukraine-russian-disinformation/2020/10/15/43158900-0ef5-11eb-b1e8-16b59b92b36d_story.html?fbclid=IwAR2fxZmSKYAElKPdwLTNStclV_oGJrTaA8f_ICnz7NhTk-WgOjWATr4Q1KY Guy (help! - typo?) 23:51, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
• Suspect provenance of the "Biden laptop" [2]. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:18, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Chinese Communist Party

Has Hunter Biden had dealings, directly or indirectly, with the Communist Party of China? Also, it seems notable to mention the October 15, 2020 New York Post article (which mentions ties between Ye Jianming, the Chinese businessmen Biden dealt with in big-money deals, and the Chinese military and government) as well as Facebook and Twitter's banning of users from even posting about this story. Link 173.88.246.138 (talk) 02:41, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

As already pointed out on this page, the story itself was shared hundreds of thousands of times on Facebook, and it has widely been discussed on Twitter (multiple hashtags on the topic trended for hours today). The New York Post is a tabloid, not a reliable source. XOR'easter (talk) 02:53, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

@XOR'easter:Yes, but there is a federal investigation going into it. That should be considered encyclopedia-worthy, don't you think? www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/feds-examining-if-alleged-hunter-biden-emails-are-linked-foreign-n1243620 Thanks, EDG 543 (message me) 20:33, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

EDG 543, I think you're misunderstanding that NBC News article, which makes no mention of China or communists. The FBI is investigating the origin of this "information", not any of Hunter Biden's ties. As the article concludes, In January, it was reported that Burisma’s networks had been breached by Russian hackers. That is what is being investigated. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:39, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

You are correct about China, sorry about that. However, I still don't see how this isn't notable. The title of the article tells what the investigation is: "Feds examining whether alleged Hunter Biden emails are linked to a foreign intel operation." Thanks, EDG 543 (message me) 20:47, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

I think you meant to ping me, not XOR? The feds are investigating the connection of these laptops to foreign agents through disinformation campaigns. At this point it is not clear that Hunter Biden owned or ever used any laptops that were brought to that repair shop, so this would be premature at this point. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:03, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

"Alleged Hunter Biden emails" soibangla (talk) 23:22, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu, yes, my apologies. Sorry if it seems like I'm just trying to stir up trouble, I'm not. I just thought that with a federal investigation going on and there being absolutely no mention of it seems a bit fishy. Thanks, EDG 543 (message me) 23:44, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

EDG 543, no worries, I didn't think you're stirring up trouble. It's just that there's no clear information about how this investigation connects to Hunter Biden. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:37, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu, it is allegedly his laptop, which is the connection. But you are right, I have done some more research and the investigation is still underway and hasn't proven Hunter's connection or if the laptop/emails are even legitimate. Once the investigation concludes, we will know the answer. Until then, we wait. Thank you for being civil, I really appreciate people like you. Thanks, EDG 543 (message me) 01:17, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Personal Life/ Drug Addiction

Can we talk about the recently released picture of him smoking crack in bed here to provide some context for his drug problems? It might also help explain some of the stranger accusations being levied against him, like dropping off a waterlogged computer for repair at a blind man's shop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:42:702:4950:E0C3:3181:ADAB:F724 (talk) 11:07, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Sounds like speculation. Koncorde (talk) 12:21, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

The first sentence is a question and in no way speculation. Wanted to know if adding information about him smoking crack under his "drug addiction" section was appropriate. I don't think it's speculation that there's a picture of him smoking crack in bed that was recently released and reported about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:42:702:4950:5C7A:7E6F:65A:BFAB (talk) 22:06, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

The "speculation" is about his drug problems having to do with him dropping off the laptops, when we even know that he went to that store. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:58, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

The article talks about his drug problem extensively. I'm not sure what exactly you want added? Theorizing about how his addiction might tie into the New York Post's suspected disinformation campaign would be original research. – Anne drew 14:54, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

To be clear, I would want the topic of a picture of him smoking crack in bed being released to be added, as I think you and I have subjective definitions of "extensive." The second sentence was to suggest that the pictures might in some way prove some of the veracity of the New York Post story, and was more a snide comment directed at what I perceive to be the admins' bias rather than a fact meant to be placed in the article. The line between subjectivity and objectivity can be tough, so I should have made myself more clear before the wiki admins. I apologize. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:42:702:4950:5C7A:7E6F:65A:BFAB (talk) 22:26, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't know if the photos are genuine, but if they are then presumably Hunter Biden owns the copyright and we would need his permission to use them. Regardless, I think you know an image like that doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. You wouldn't open the Britannica article of a public figure and expect to see a photo of them using narcotics, because that would paint the subject in a needlessly disparaging light. See WP:MUG for our policy on this. – Anne drew 23:30, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I kinda misread you. My bad – Anne drew 01:19, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Anne drew Andrew and Drew, I agree we can't use the photo without getting a release from the copyright holder, but I'm unclear why you would presume that the copyright belongs to Hunter Biden. I haven't seen them, so perhaps it's possible that they are selfies but if not, it's not clear who the copyright holder is. S Philbrick(Talk) 01:06, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

The photo New York Post published looks like a selfie to me, but it's hard to be sure – Anne drew 01:19, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Hmm you can talk about it on Facebook, I suppose. Sorry, but your second sentence sounds like it came right out of a Tom Waits song from the 1980s. Drmies (talk) 14:55, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

I think if we are claiming that the emails are clearly just a right-wing conspiracy based on Russian disinformation, that it would make sense for us to also claim that the pictures of him smoking crack - you know, the ones that came from the computer planted by the Russians - were really just photoshopped by the Trump campaign. After all, why would we want to believe our lying eyes? NationalInterest16 (talk) 21:53, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

I have seen no such images because none have been released. So, we're still talking about an unverified allegation, and that's a big no-no for WP:BLPs. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:01, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Is an ongoing federal investigation a big no-no for BLP's as well? Thanks, EDG 543 (message me) 23:46, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

EDG 543, reliable source for the existence of one? Guy (help! - typo?) 00:13, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

No, Giuliani Is Said to Be Under Investigation for Ukraine Work is in Rudy's BLP. soibangla (talk) 00:23, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

JzG www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/feds-examining-if-alleged-hunter-biden-emails-are-linked-foreign-n1243620, www.foxnews.com/politics/hunter-biden-emails-senate-homeland-security-committee-investigating-hard-drive-laptop, and wjla.com/news/nation-world/sen-johnson-to-investigate-claims-in-new-york-post-story-others-question-accuracy for starters. Thanks, EDG 543 (message me) 00:30, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

EDG 543, Hunter Biden isn't under investigation. The FBI is investigating how these laptops came to be, and it may have nothing to do with Hunter at all. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:37, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

JzGYou are correct, it may have nothing to do with him, but it is, allegedly, his computer. Also, thank you for having a civil conversation about this instead of an argument, it is much appreciated. Thanks, EDG 543 (message me) 00:40, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

BLP

Clearly, the authenticity of the Giuliani Bonus is in doubt. Under the circumstances we should not be adding anything about that to the lead until the circumstances are more widely agreed. I hope somebody removes it. SPECIFICO talk 02:15, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Here's the text in it's current form:

In 2020, an article from the New York Post drew increased attention to the Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory. The article is unsubstantiated and some have raised concerns it could be part of a disinformation campaign.

I think it's important to have some reference to the story since that's why many readers are coming here, but I agree maybe it doesn't belong in the lead. – Anne drew 02:20, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

I got real problems with it because in the highly likely case this is disinformation then we are taking the bait as designed, giving the disinformation oxygen, keeping it alive, helping it to go viral. soibangla (talk) 02:23, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree. If people want to learn about it they can can look at the online news sources. We're an encyclopedia and we always insist on extra care in our BLPs. At present this is hardly more than gossip. Gandydancer (talk) 02:57, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

I think it is well written but the lead is so short that it is taking up almost a third of the copy. I removed it from the lead. Gandydancer (talk) 03:09, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

References