Talk:Paul the Apostle

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Removed Paragraph

I removed the following, as Paul did NOT write Ephesians.

"It is evident from the frequency of Paul's counsel on marriage and family that he placed great importance on the subject. Paul exhorts the women in the Ephesian branch of the church to submit themselves to their own husbands (literally, become subject or obedient to), as they would to the Lord, comparing the husband and the family to Christ and the Church. (See Eph. 5.) But he also charges the husbands to love their wives (see Eph. 5:25) as their Savior loved the church, so that they might sanctify and perfect their families through love. Paraphrasing one of the great commandments—to love one's neighbor as oneself—Paul says, "So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself." (Verse 28.) A husband is not to rule as a tyrant over his wife but is to preside in love. (See verse 33."

There has been so much good scholarship done on Paul that it is disappointing to see such examples found all over the New Testament pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.140.233.138 (talk) 03:47, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Plenty of scholars still accept Pauline authorship of Ephesians; its very much up in the air. I am reinserting this paragraph. Carl.bunderson (talk) 03:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Quoting "The Harper Collins Study Bible" (1993) "Marked differences in style, phrasing, and viewpoint between this Letter and the seven unquestionably authentic Pauline Letters have cast significant doubt on Pauline authorship of Ephesians. It is more likely that a disciple of Paul wrote the Letter in Paul's name, probably after the apostle's death." I will, again, remove the paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.140.233.138 (talk) 22:40, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry- the quotation of one source does not resolve the problem. The fact of the matter is that many scholars are indeed divided on the issue, and therefore we should mind this fact in the article in the interest of neutrality. Historical perspective is also an issue- the relatively recent theories of scholars on the authorship of Paul's epistles should not usurp prior theories/beliefs on the subject (we should avoid a bias towards recent scholarship per policy). If the epistle is attributed to Paul, then we should mind the attribution while providing information on the disputed status of authorship. It's not even that I disagree with your changes, but your cited justifications are poor. The sections already have problems, but I do not believe this is one of them.--C.Logan (talk) 01:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Removed More

What I removed here hardly even makes sense, nor does it even sound like an encyclopedia at all. Paul may never have married in the first place, and it seems like a fairly obvious conclusion one can make from the unquestionably Pauline epistles. The following is completely unnecessary, is based on no scholarship, and instead on the most questionable and preposterous speculation.

"What sense would these statements make if they came from an unmarried man? In view of all that Paul has said on marriage in 1 Corinthians, it is quite unlikely that the Corinthians would accept his epistle and his arguments if he had been divorced or separated from a wife. The message of 2 Corinthians 7, however, is that the first epistle was accepted and many Saints repented. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.140.233.138 (talk) 03:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Removed Stil More

Paul did not write either Timothy or Titus. Accordingly, I removed the following in its entirety.

"Finally, in Paul's last epistles, which were written to Timothy and Titus, he places further emphasis on the desirability of marriage. In listing the qualities necessary for a bishop, Paul includes being married (see 1 Tim. 3:2) and being a good leader over his house: "For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?" (1 Tim. 3:5; cp. Titus 1:5–9). Even those called "deacons" in that day (the Greek literally means "one who serves" or a "helper") were to be married and have orderly households. (See 1 Tim, 3:10–13.)

The evidence of Paul's writings leads to the conclusion that he not only tolerated marriage among the saints, but encouraged and exhorted them to marry and bear children. He indicated that marriage is an essential part of the gospel framework, and asserted that one of the signs of apostasy in the last days would be teachings against marriage. (See 1 Tim. 4:1–3.) Certainly Jesus was foremost in importance to Paul, just as he should be in the hearts of men today, and on occasion Paul had to remind men called to the ministry to be fully dedicated to the Lord's work. Nevertheless, Paul understood and taught that in the presence of the Lord, the man will not be without the woman, neither the woman without the man."

Paul and marriage is a worthy subject, but it should not be too long. Paul did not tell women to subject themselves to their husbands as the authors of Timothy and Titus did. Paul saw no distinction between man or woman, a distinction which the pseudonymous authors of Timothy and Titus later do not make. Compare , for instance, Colossians 3:11 (which Paul wrote), and Corinthians 12:13 (which he did not write).

Someone should dig up that quote because I forget where it is, about Peter being married but Paul saying he wished others could be like him and not marry. I can't remember where it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.140.233.138 (talk) 03:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

"I removed the following, as Paul did NOT write Ephesians."

"Paul did not write either Timothy or Titus."

As this appears to be the justification for the removal of this text, I find myself severely questioning your contributions. Make no mistake- there is a problem with these paragraphs, but it is one of possible original research. Your own cited reasons have no place here, because they concede to only one point of view, and not even one which is of any great majority or unanimity. I think that the editors who watch this page should look over the text because the phrasing is questionable and the sources provided are insufficient for interpretive analysis of the verses is question (a secondary source supporting the view should be cited); the reason you cite is invalid and is completely unacceptable.--C.Logan (talk) 07:04, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Quoting the Harper Collins Study Bible (1993), from its introduction to the Letter to Timothy, "Though some try to reconcile these problematical features with a vestige of Pauline authorship by assuming that secretary wrote the Letters form sketchy notes or that a later author crafted them around fragments of authentic letters, it seems best to acknowledge their pseudonymity. An unkonwn author used Paul's name to give authority to his attempt to address problems in some post-Pauline chruches." I will again remove the paragraph. The introductions to 2 Timothy and Titus refer the reader to this paragraph for discussion of the authorship of those two letters. (2 Timothy and Titus.) "An unknown author used Paul's name" could not be more clear. Look at the Wikipedia articles for those letters people and they will tell you the truth. Wikipedia should not be made a fool of by ignorant people whose religiousity does not allow them objectivity. 99.140.233.138 (talk) 22:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I repeat my response again:

"I'm sorry- the quotation of one source does not resolve the problem. The fact of the matter is that many scholars are indeed divided on the issue, and therefore we should mind this fact in the article in the interest of neutrality. Historical perspective is also an issue- the relatively recent theories of scholars on the authorship of Paul's epistles should not usurp prior theories/beliefs on the subject (we should avoid a bias towards recent scholarship per policy). If the epistle is attributed to Paul, then we should mind the attribution while providing information on the disputed status of authorship. It's not even that I disagree with your changes, but your cited justifications are poor. The sections already have problems, but I do not believe this is one of them."

First of all, the articles acknowledge the fact that the issue is disputed- you seem to believe this means that it is settled in your favor. This, unfortunately, is not the case. The issue is indeed unresolved, and- on top of that- justifying changes based upon other Wikipedia articles is not an advisable practice.

Second of all, there are obviously a myriad of bibles which could be quoted in opposition to the quote which you have provided- what does that prove? We need to maintain an objective mindset concerning this issue, and your own personal comments near the end aren't helping.--C.Logan (talk) 01:05, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but it's more than one source. It's 50+ Ph.D.s that edited the Bible and wrote the introduction. This whole section is plagiarized anyway! Look at this website!

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=transcripts&id=78

It is word for word plagiarism! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.140.233.138 (talk) 03:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I've repeatedly explained that the text itself is problematic, but your own reasons for removing it is hardly defensible. Must it be explained again that there is no scholarly consensus on the issue? The Harper Collins bible is not representative of the whole of scholarship, so do not try to present it as such.

If plagiarism is evident, the text should be revamped. The source/site itself is acceptable, but copying the text word-for-word is not acceptable. Additionally, we may not want to rely on one source alone- some of the particular points present should be included in addition to alternate, sourced interpretations.--C.Logan (talk) 09:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Not A Member of The Sandhedrin

Paul was a Pharisee, and so not a member of the Sanhedrin. Phillipians 3:4-6, "If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. "

From the Wiki page on the Sanhedrin, "Some claim that the New Testament portrays the Sanhedrin as a corrupt group of Pharisees, although it was predominantly made up of Sadducees at the time. This does not agree with the New Testament in which the Sanhedrin's leadership - Annas and Caiaphas were Sadducees. The Gospels also consistently make a distinction between the Pharisees and "the elders," "the teachers of the law," and "the rulers of the people." 99.140.233.138 (talk) 23:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, many do not see the classifications as mutually exclusive. All the same, there is nothing explicit in the text itself which supports the possibility that Paul may have been part of the Sanhedrin. Some do believe this to be the case.--C.Logan (talk) 00:51, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

On Marriage Is Word for Word Plagiarism

This section is not only wrong, it's plagiarized anyway. Here is the website, see for yourself.

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=transcripts&id=78

I'm going to go ahead and edit heavily.

To compare what I have removed, I will include the previous text:

In the first place, Paul himself was likely to have been married because of his Judaic background.[76] In his defense before the Jewish crowd outside the Roman barracks of the Antonian tower, Paul states that he was taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers and was zealous in living that law. (See Acts 22:3.) Again, in his defense before the Pharisees and Sadducees, Paul claims that he is a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. (See Acts 23:6.) To the Galatians, Paul had written that he was more zealous in fulfilling the requirements of his religion than others of his time. (See Gal. 1:14.) The emphasis that the Jews put on marriage as part of their law and tradition would certainly have been used against Paul in view of such statements if he had not been married.

Further evidence that Paul may have been married is found in the possibility that Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin.[citation needed] One of the qualifications for becoming a member of that body was that a man must be married and the father of children[citation needed], which was thought to make him more merciful in dispensing justice in the courts. Paul (Saul) was one of the official witnesses of the stoning of Stephen (see Acts 7:59), an action ordered by the Sanhedrin. He also gave his vote with the Sanhedrin against the Christians prior to his conversion. (See Acts 26:10.)3 Further evidence of Paul's position is found in Acts 9:1–2 where Paul went before the high priest and requested letters authorizing his "official" persecution in bringing Christians to trial and imprisonment. In view of these evidences, most non-Mormon scholars do not argue that Paul had never been married, but that he was either divorced or was a widower by the time he wrote to the Corinthian church.

ETC ETC. Jsmaine22 (talk) 01:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Furthermore, citing Acts as a reliable source is not scholarship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsmaine22 (talk • contribs) 01:28, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I would have to say that acts definitely can't count as a reliable source, since it is viewed by the majority of scholars as contradicting Paul's own letters (the Epistles). Clinkophonist (talk) 18:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

More to the point it (like the entire Bible) is a primary source, not a secondary source. See WP:PSTS: "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation". Peter Ballard (talk) 23:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Added the Sickness sub headline and information

and I also put scriptural and commentary references.

Hope it meets the standards.

K8cpa (talk) 09:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Date of Birth

Is around 3-5 AD. some one add this please! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dran0258 (talk • contribs) 02:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:No original research. 75.14.210.20 (talk) 22:04, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Arrest and death

"According to Acts 21:17–26, upon his arrival in Mexico, the Apostle Paul provided a detailed account to James" - "[...]in order to disprove the accusations of the Mexicans[...]" Is there also a biblical Mexico? The provided source only mentions an arrival to Jerusalem... I don't know about this subject enough to correct this paragraph. Any volunteers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.23.32.141 (talk) 16:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The vandalism to which you refer has been undone.--C.Logan (talk) 16:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

death

There is no Proof for time of death, Therefore it should be corrected —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dran0258 (talk • contribs) 23:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)