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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 92.74.225.126 (talk) at 13:39, 8 August 2021 (→Ethnic Heritage of the Rapists?: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 13 May 2019 and 1 July 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Australyeah (article contribs).

Article being flagged for copyright problems

Not sure if it's because of quote spam or just out right copy pasting...but it needs to be addressed before someone puts it up for deletion. Pls refer to here for the different copyright concerns.--Moxy 🍁 03:19, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Moxy, that link looks like it copied from the Wikipedia article (specifically this revision), rather than the other way around. – bradv🍁 03:30, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That is possible. ..but there are 7 links to different sites....need to click every example. If you compare it to a copy from last year we don't get such a warning.--Moxy 🍁 03:33, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Moxy, just checked all of them - they're all either quotes or copies from our article. – bradv🍁 03:40, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So it's quote spamming causing the problem.....should fix the lazy additions since last year as per MOS:Quote. I will take a look.... first we should fix the sourcing problem.... Old topic like this has many academic publications to use.... simply no need for dead websites.--Moxy 🍁 03:46, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Bradv: there was no copyright violation; this is obvious. As about the quotations, see may comments above. This is mostly a sourcing problem. In particular "Sex liberation and erotic myths... " by Сергей Турченко no one knows about is not an appropriate source for this page. This revert [1] made 4 times by user Jack90s15 in violation of 3RR rule) is not fixing a vandalism by an IP, but insertion of poorly sourced content. My very best wishes (talk) 14:33, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@My very best wishes: It was on there for a while and no one seemed to have a problem with soviet field reports the same source is still used on the page that's why I asked for page protection. I am not here to make enemies with people the Copyright problem was here before me I hope we can all work this out.Jack90s15 (talk) 16:30, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, it was only just a few day ago when you created such section [2]. Regardless, it does not matter for how long the poorly sourced materials were on a page. The longer the worse. My very best wishes (talk) 16:39, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@My very best wishes: For the time it was it was a while but I don't want to argue about this I want to work to together on this with you can we? Jack90s15 (talk) 16:53, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. Please find better sources if you want to include this content. My very best wishes (talk) 16:57, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@My very best wishes: I added the war time memory that was from the same Book that is used for the other twoJack90s15 (talk) 22:28, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This text was included in a single edit made by a suspicious red linked account [3]. Unless you can personally check the cited Russian original and confirm translation, this should be removed. I read the book and do not remember it there. My very best wishes (talk) 22:46, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@My very best wishes: Do you think that was from a Sock to that banned user? Jack90s15 (talk) 23:42, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, possibly. Someone created an account to make a single edit in an article on a highly contentious subject. As a rule of thumb, you should never restore edits made by such accounts if the edits are removed by other contributors, unless you personally checked the underlying sources and can evaluate their reliability. Otherwise, you are guilty of WP:PROXYING. My very best wishes (talk) 23:59, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If this is about the Aleksvich book then please provide the appropriate page number for the quote - it's not on page 236 and I can't find the quote using searches [4]. Volunteer Marek 23:59, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is probably a translation of an older edition of the book where all content related to this subject was censored. Unfortunately, I do not have newer edition (in Russian) handy. My very best wishes (talk) 00:11, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@My very best wishes: I added what is used on the Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn page for the Eyewitness accounts and added the proper AttributionJack90s15 (talk) 00:36, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What's going on here is ugly. Alexeivich absolutely did not intend to write a book portraying her compatriots as monsters, but the careless and cherry-picked reading of it by the pharmacological researcher with his "rUsSiAnS r bAd" perspective tries to portray the book as such. The 2013 edition of Alexievich's contains:
Вспоминает Вера Павловна Бородина, младший сержант, телеграфистка:
«Немцев пугали, что мы звери. Они топились, перерезали себе вены. Целыми семьями. Мы их отхаживали… Остановились в одном доме. Пусто. Хозяев нашли на чердаке — мать и дочь. Они повесились, потому что их убедили, что, как только придут русские, начнется изнасилование, грабеж, убийство, Сибирь, лагеря…И вдруг этого ничего нет! А им было известно, во что превращен Сталинград, во что превращена вся Россия, им показывали в кино. И они, конечно, предполагали, что все это начнется теперь на немецкой земле. Для них было удивительным отсутствие у нас мести. Раз зашли в дом, хотели чаю попить. Много домов стояло пустых, они все бросали и убегали. Мы давай искать чашки, находим сервиз и видим рисунок наш — знакомые колоски такие… Читаем: „СССР, г. Одесса“. Мы так чай и не попили…»[1]
"Junior Sergeant Vera Pavlovna Borodina, telegraph operator, recalls: "The Germans were told that we were beasts to frighten them They drowned themselves or cut their veins, whole families at a time We nursed them back to health... Once we stopped in an empty house We found the owners a mother and daughter in the attic. Thet had hanged themselves, because they were convinced that, as soon as the Russians came, rape, pillage and murder would begin, that they would be sent to camps in Siberia.And then nothing of the kind happened! But they knew what Stalingrad had been fined into, what the whole of Russia had been turned into, they had been shown it in the cinema. And, of course, they imagined that the same thing would happen now on German soil. Our refusal to take revenge amazed them."Fuzzythrot (talk) 22:44, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That is correct. By the way, the wave of suicides before the advancing Red Army is a well documented fact. It would be correct to collect quotes pro et contra. However, we cannot inflate the article, and cannot provide to many quotes.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:43, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Let's not create a quotation farm from a single book. While a couple of quotations from the book of A (included long time ago) are fine, including this third long quotation, which is not a particularly informative, is over the top. Hence removed. My very best wishes (talk) 18:10, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://loveread.ec/view_global.php?id=28329

Edits by Moxy

Hi Moxy. Regarding your edit

Some Russian historians disagree, claiming that the Soviet leadership took some action.[1]

I checked page 480 of the reference and it does not support this claim. First, it says nothing about Russian historians. Second, it says the opposite about taking action. For example, it quotes McLynn:

Beginning in East Prussia in January 1945, reaching a crescendo in the two-week battle for Berlin and continuing after the end of hostilities, rape ran at epidemic levels. The Red Army’s officers had neither the will nor inclination to stop it. During the battle, 130,000 women were raped, 10 percent of whom committed suicide. In the 1945 campaign in Germany, Beevor establishes, with unimpeachable scholarship, that at least 2 million women were ravished, many in gang rapes.

and it also says:

Anthony Beevor emphasizes that the wave of rape during the initial occupation stemmed from revenge but then became a case of “the spoils going to the victor.” Stalin and other official sknew of the problem but took no major action to halt it.

Can you please clarify? 99.199.43.208 (talk) 23:03, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I added one source that does talk about how the Soviet leadership did take some action about the rape. From the bcc that as been on here for years also, no need to quote the same information two times.76.65.155.9 (talk) 23:33, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I added the relevant section of the BBC article and removed the duplicate sentence. 99.199.43.208 (talk) 23:49, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I added some more to opening and thanks for fixing the duplicate sentence.76.65.155.9 (talk) 00:11, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Women and War. ABC-CLIO. 2006. pp. 480–. ISBN 978-1-85109-770-8.

Methodology

For obvious reasons, this topic is infinitely fraught and infinitely complicated {These two articles are not irrelevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse}, and perhaps discussing its methodology is more important than discussing what are taken to be facts? Incidentally, something I only know from the hearsay of a German woman born in 1942 is that the Americans in her sector didn't spare German Jews. Also, I feel uneasy about the article being so disconnected from the context of rape of Russian women by Germans during the German invasion of Russia. Fuficius Fango (talk) 13:28, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Unreliable source

I’ve found that author Walter S. Zapotoczny, Jr. has very poor book reviews on Amazon, some of his books being rated as low as 1/5 or 2/5. The reviews generally criticise his works for being poorly written, not providing a comprehensive review of the topic, and filling many pages with appendixes and trivial information. I’ve haven’t looked into the books my self; I thought I’d post this here as a warning, and maybe someone can do a source check. JackAlpha26 (talk) 14:10, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Additions to the lead

@LaggerLegend: you recently added a few paragraphs of new content to the very beginning of this article. I have now reverted you twice, with you re-reverting in between. As you have not been using edit summaries, it is hard to know why you feel this content merits inclusion, or why it can be included despite a lack of sourcing. In the hopes of avoiding a full edit war, I am hoping you will join this discussion to justify your edits and possibly build consensus for including your work. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 05:38, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]


@Firefangledfeathers: (talk) I would love to share with you some information. Stalin has signed special order and communicated by phone to generals on 19th January 1945. Zhukov, Konev, and Rokossovsky have ordered their armies to follow these rules. Some sources: http://www.great-country.ru/rubrika_myths/vov/00027.html

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-41521130.html "Am 29. Januar ließ Marschall Schukow in allen Bataillonen seiner 1. Belorussischen Heeresgruppe einen Ukas verlesen, der es den Rotarmisten untersagte, "die deutsche Bevölkerung zu drangsalieren, die Wohnungen zu plündern und die Häuser niederzubrennen". Zugleich sollte die Verlesung eines schon früher erlassenen Stalin-Befehls den Warnungen vor Ausschreitungen Nachdruck geben: Offiziere und Rotarmisten aller Truppen! Wir gehen jetzt ins feindliche Land, Von jedem wird Selbstbeherrschung verlangt, jeder hat tapfer zu sein, wie es einem Kämpfer der Roten Armee gebührt, Die auf von uns besetzt-am Gebiet zurückgebliebene Bevölkerung, unabhängig davon, ob es Deutsche, Tschechen oder Polen sind, soll nicht belästigt und nicht beleidigt werden, denn die Schuldigen werden nach Kriegsgesetzen bestraft. Im besetzten Feindgebiet darf kein intimer Verkehr mit Frauen stattfinden Für Mißhandlungen und Vergewaltigungen werden die Schuldigen erschossen."

Heeresgruppe Mitte Abt. Ic/AO 'Sowjetische Befehle über Verhalten der RA auf deutschem Boden' 3 Feb. 1945 (т.е. "Советские приказы о поведении Красной армии на немецкой земле")

По немецким территориям есть две Директивы Ставки ВГК: от 2 апреля 1945 г. № 11055: «Войскам, действующим на территории Австрии, дать указания о том, чтобы население Австрии не обижать, вести себя корректно и не смешивать австрийцев с немецкими оккупантами.» и от 20 апреля 1945 г. № 11072. «Ставка Верховного Главнокомандования приказывает: 1. Потребовать от войск изменить отношение к немцам как к военнопленным, так и к гражданскому населению и обращаться с немцами лучше. Жестокое обращение с немцами вызывает у них боязнь и заставляет их упорно сопротивляться, не сдаваясь в плен. Гражданское население, опасаясь мести, организуется в банды. Такое положение нам не выгодно.»

В хрущевском официозе История Великой Отечественной войны Советского Союза 1941-1945 гг. Т. 5. М., 1963 приказ Сталина не упомянут. В брежневском официозе История второй мировой войны 1939–1945 гг. Т. 10. М., 1979. с. 144-145 ссылается на: Наше мщение. // Красная Звезда. М., 1945. №33, 9 февраля, с. 1: http://libinfo.org/newsr/newsr130.djvu Нельзя представить себе дела таким образом, что если, скажем, фашистские двуногие звери позволяли себе публично насиловать наших женщин или занимались мародерством, то и мы в отместку им должны делать то же самое. Этого никогда не бывало и быть не может. Наш боец никогда не допустит ничего подобного, хотя руководствоваться здесь он будет отнюдь не жалостью, а только чувством собственного достоинства.

http://www.airo-xxi.ru/gb/doklady/doklad01.htm#_ednref28 Большевик. 1945. № 2. С.5.


Firefangledfeathers (talk) also, please read № 284. Приказ о порядке использования трофейного народнохозяйственного имущества № 04 19 января 1945 г. http://militera.lib.ru/docs/da/nko_1943-1945/14.html

Thank you for providing some sources. Many are primary documents from during or soon after the war. We need to be cautious not to overuse such documents per WP:PRIMARY. If you find those sources to supplement current content sourced to reliable, secondary sources, I believe the article would be strengthened by their inclusion. Having skimmed through your links, I didn't easily find anything to support some of your content. For example, your edit began with:

The main thing is being displaced from the historical memory of the Second World War - that the USSR and the Soviet people saved Europe from the destruction of entire states and peoples, and democracy itself, and at the cost of colossal losses and sacrifices, unprecedented suffering and destruction on Soviet soil and an incredible exertion of forces. Moreover, in the western zones of German occupation, as the documents show , there was by no means the idyll the image of which is being instilled in the public consciousness today. Eisenhower 's Radio Message "We Come Winning!"meant both "the right of the victors" and "woe to the vanquished." "Paradise life" in the western sectors turned out to be such that even refugees frightened by the propaganda about "Russian atrocities" returned to the areas occupied by Soviet troops .

 What I have found so far in your sources does not support that content. Is the part about Eisenhower's message an interpretation of a reliable source, or your own interpretation? How about the labeling of the USSR's role in the war as the "main thing" being displaced in memory? In general, your content could benefit from inline citations, so that it's clear which source can verify each sentence or paragraph. You can learn more about how to do that at WP:Citing sources. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:34, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnic Heritage of the Rapists?

What was the ethnic heritage of the Soviet Soldiers who committed (mass) rapes? There is some rumor that the Majority of them were Non-Europeans just like Tatars, Azerbaijanis, Kalmyks, Tuwinians, Buryatians and Yakutians.--92.74.225.126 (talk) 13:39, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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