Talk:Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid

Concept car vs pre-production car

Is the concept car the same as the pre-production car? The press releases don't seem to tell them apart.  Stepho  (talk) 02:01, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

They are not. I attended the 2010 Washington Auto Show, and the tablet board accompanying the exhibited Prius plug-in called it (I am transcribing from a pic I took of this plaque): "Prius Plug-In Hybrid Demonstration Program Vehicle" This is the name I have been using in the article when referring to the demonstration units to avoid WP:OR, considering, as you correctly pointed out, that Toyota has not been clear about the naming. I think we could call it also pre-production without being guilty of OR, usually a concept car implies that only a few units were built, that 600 like in this case. Furthermore, as you can check here (pics and video), the first Prius PHEVs being delivered in the U.S. have the same exact painting and decals as the one exhibited in DC. For the only one picture in the article with the caption that says it is the concept car (2009 Frankfurt) you can notice that in the floor to the right you can read "concept", as well as in the Prius front plate. Also you can see more pics of several concepts exhibited by Toyota since 2008 here. Since I uploaded several of the test or demo PHVS in the Commons, I am sorting them to the right category (plus I have to rename it because the guy who created forgot the word "Prius" and named it incorrectly "Toyota Plug-in Hybrid". Any other suggestion or idea is welcome.-Mariordo (talk) 02:14, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. So now we have the "Prius Plug-In Hybrid Concept", the "Prius Plug-In Hybrid Demonstration Program Vehicle", possibly a pre-production vehicle (same as demo?) and (hopefully, in the near future) the production "Prius Plug-In Hybrid" (or maybe just plain "Prius" if it becomes standardised on the main model). Not sure if "Vehicle" is part of the proper name or not - Toyota doesn't seem to care about consistency (even on the same vehicle). We can just ignore the as-yet unnamed future versions and only document them when they are actually released. Can you point us to your picture of the plaque? And yes, I fully agree that the Prius pictures should all have Prius in the category name to avoid confusion with the other Toyota Hybrids.  Stepho  (talk) 09:47, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I did not upload that pic to the Commons (I did not think it will be useful for any article, I just took several like this to remember later the exact name of the models in the Auto Show), but if you think it is worthy to have there, I will, just let me know.-Mariordo (talk)

On a second thought, and considering Toyota's lack of transparency about this issue, I decided to upload it so at least it will serve as a reference. You can find it in the Commons here. I did some sharpening to increase readability of the small letters, but I have to sacrifice the quality of the image (any way the lighting was not so good).--Mariordo (talk) 17:21, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

As for this http://green.autoblog.com/2010/04/13/toyota-announces-first-details-of-u-s-plug-in-prius-test-progra/, I have concerns about it's validity for the production model. I do own a Prius hybrid plug in 2013. I ran a few repeatable tests to see if EV batteries do regenerate as to let the driver drive back in EV mode after those batteries are depleted, and it actually works. I went downhill for a 3-4 minute ride after running in hybrid mode for 15-20 minutes (EV batteries completely depleted), and used the regenerative brakes during that 3-4 minute downhill pass. Well at the end of it, I had a 1.9 KM of EV mode available, and actually could revert back to EV mode. I know this is in the "Demonstration vehicle" section, but I wonder if that isn't bringning confusion about if that still applies to the production model. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ggogeta (talk • contribs) 20:27, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually a lot of details are missing in the production vehicle, particularly the technical specs. Please feel free to expand the section regarding the production version supported by reliable sources (see WP:RS).--Mariordo (talk) 20:42, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Cost

Am I missing something? I have yet to read anything explaining why the PHEV is priced about twenty-grand higher than the standard hybrid. From what I can tell, there's not really a tremendous amount of additional technology necessary for the PHEV, and I understood that aftermarket kits were available to convert the current Prius for around $2-3K. $20,000 seems more than a little excessive, and, IMHO, worthy of an explanation. -Grammaticus Repairo (talk) 04:53, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

You are wrong, it costs much more than 2-3K, the lithium-ion batteries costs 10 to 15K depending on the all-electric range. Check the Chevy Volt article, the plug-in hybrid or plug-in electric vehicle for a detailed explanation.-Mariordo (talk) 04:24, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Government incentives

The text says

The selected battery capacity is the minimum required for the Prius Plug-in to be eligible for the U.S. federal tax credit of US$2,500, which is applicable to the first 200,000 plug-ins sold by Toyota

While the IRS web page listing qualified models implies, as of this writing, that the 2013 Prius Plug-in Hybrid has not qualified for a Federal tax credit, private communications from John Voelcker, editor GreenCarReports.com, relying on information from Toyota, say that this is just a delay in updating the site. Alanterra (talk) 17:11, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

The article links to Government incentives for plug-in electric vehicles, under the Section United States you can read all the details. But in a nutshell, the tax credit for new plug-in electric vehicles is worth $2,500 for a PEV with a traction battery with at least 4 kwh plus $417 for each kilowatt-hour of battery capacity over 4 kwh. The additional California rebate is explained there too, but check by yourself here. Note that both the Prius PHV and the RAV4 EV are listed.--Mariordo (talk) 01:50, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Mariordo, but the link Wikipedia article talks about what the credit should be (and the article appears to have been written in 2011), not what the US Government is actually giving as of today, which is the link I supplied. I am worried that while the Prius (and RAV4 EV) should qualify for Federal tax rebates, as you say, there is no evidence that they actually do so. The IRS page that I list above mentions other 2013 models, but specifically says only that the 2012 Toyota models qualify for tax credits. Also, I see that Toyota's press kit for the 2013 Prius Plug-in does not address Federal rebates, only California rebates, while the press release for the 2012 plug-in does talk about Federal rebates. I wonder if this article should point out the uncertainty--it might be helpful to the reader. I have asked a Toyota salesman to help explain this (which was part of his sales pitch), but he has not returned my calls. Not really understanding the issue, I suspect that there is either a delay in review, or a technical point that is under dispute between Toyota and the IRS. But in any event, I believe that as of now one cannot apply for the $2,500 Federal tax rebate for either of these 2013 models. I can find no other discussion of this point elsewhere on the web, so perhaps I am unduly cautious. Alanterra (talk) 05:57, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Fuel economy

Need clarification

EPA label 95MPGe in electric-Gas

In the article text (see bold text)

"......According to Toyota the Prius plug-in is expected to be rated at 112 mpg-US (2.10 L/100 km; 135 mpg-imp) and CO2 emissions of 49 g/km under the New European Driving Cycle (NEDC).[4][8] EPA's official fuel economy rating is 95 miles per gallon gasoline equivalent (MPG-e) (2.5 L/100 km; 114 mpg-imp) in all-electric mode and a combined city/highway rating of 50 mpg-US (4.7 L/100 km; 60 mpg-imp) in hybrid mode, the same as the third generation Prius liftback.[3]...."" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.67.8.227 (talk) 20:24, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

The energy has to come from somewhere. In this case it is an electric power station. The EPA averaged all the power stations across the USA (including coal burning, oil burning, gas burning, hydro-electric, etc and came up with an figure that estimates how much oil (representing gasoline) was burnt to produce that amount of energy - on average.  Stepho  talk  23:42, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

From article

I find the numbers worrisome regarding alleged range. If the vehicle holds 12 gallons of fuel and travels 50 miles per gallon Shouldn't the range be 600 miles? This would not even factor in the added 11 miles pure electric the car is capable of travelling.. just curious... ~ i've removed this from the page, where it was added by an IP. No opinion on it, just thought it belongs here. Cheers, Lindsay^Hello 15:35, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Article restructure

Because the article clearly dates from before the PiP went into production, it is excessively weighted to the development process, with the production car info other than the lede starting halfway down the page. It's also a mishmash of tenses.

While I'd prefer someone with more auto knowledge than me to take on the editing job, I will try to if no-one else does (I'm interested because I drive one). I'd propose to significantly cut back the info on pre-production models except where important to cross refer to changes in the production model, because many people still get confused by press articles based on the demo models. Also, since people are likely to want info about the production model I'd propose moving the demo and pre-prod info later in the article. Finally, there needs to be a section explaining the differences between the US and European models (and others, though I'm not competent to add those).

Comments, counters? Matruman (talk) 13:05, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

You made a very good point. However, I think it is important to preserve the history/evolution of the car development (see for example the Chevrolet Volt history section). Usually, history goes first, but a trim will be helpful. Since I did most of the early edits, I rather have someone else do the reorganizing and trimming, just as it is being done in the Tesla Model S article right now. Cheers.--Mariordo (talk) 14:11, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

OK, will try and find time to have a go on that basis. Matruman (talk) 20:02, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism

I removed vandalism on the picture caption. Keep an eye out for recurrence. 173.166.110.9 (talk) 19:53, 26 January 2015 (UTC)