Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

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Please use this page only to:

request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic,
request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or
appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators.

For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard.

Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.

To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.

Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted.

Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change,^[a] or is no longer an administrator;^[b] or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

Standard of review
On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

A couple of reminders:

Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Wikipedia and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Wikipedia policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it.
More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.

Closing a thread:

Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct.
You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages.
Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log.

Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

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Capitals00

In no particular order, SheriffIsInTown, Capitals00, NadirAli, JosephusOfJerusalem, D4iNa4, MapSGV, TripWire, Mar4d, MBlaze Lightning and Raymond3023 are all indefinitely banned from edits and pages related to conflict between India and Pakistan, broadly construed. They may appeal this sanction on its merits in the usual ways or at this noticeboard on a showing of six months of positive contributions elsewhere on Wikipedia. They are all warned that any further disruption or testing of the edges of the topic ban are likely to be met with either an indefinite IPA topic ban or an indefinite block.

Sdmarathe is indefinitely banned from interacting with Vanamonde93, subject to the usual exceptions.

I am not going to take any action against Lorstaking at this time, though they should note that some have found their participation on noticeboards, and in particular as it relates to editors named above, to be disruptive and I advise them to go careful in the future. GoldenRing (talk) 09:32, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Capitals00

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: JosephusOfJerusalem (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 07:14, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Capitals00 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan#Standard_discretionary_sanctions:

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

″You can keep the wikilawyering nonsense with yourself″ WP:PERSONALATTACK
″Making up nonsense would result in sanctions against you. You know that NadirAli has WP:CIR issues, just like you do″ WP:PERSONALATTACK.
″Looks like he told you to come here and misrepresent the entire issue for him.″ He is casting WP:ASPERSIONS on a senior editor in good standing Samee.
″Your WP:CIR issues are not even limited to this. You had exhibited similar incompetence on entire Sino-Indian conflicts.″ Rudeness and incompetence accusations during content disputes with editor The Discoverer.
″Given you have been a totally disruptive editor from the get-go″ More bad-faith accusations in content disputes. Also a WP:PERSONALATTACK.
″Misrepresenting Indian position when you believe it will help you pushing your POV,″ Bad-faith accusations.
″so why you are engaging in this disruption now? You have issues with WP:CIR and WP:IDHT and that's the only issue″ More display of bad faith and accusations in content disputes.
″now it is being followed by your typical WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior and repeating same boring refuted arguments.″ More accusations and personal attacks.
″Mar4d Stop engaging in this usual IDHT″ Same as above.
″I was only refuting your senseless excuses for denying Indian victory″ Clear WP:TENDENTIOUS attitude and WP:PERSONALATTACK.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

[1] The block log shows a history of blocks for edit war, disruptive and tendentious editing.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see [2])

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This user has a tradition of accusing any editors he has disagreements with to be ″incompetent″, abusing WP:IDHT in content disputes and general incivility. There's a lot of bad-faith comments and ad hominem personal attacks coming from him. The environment this user is creating throughout the project, regardless of topic area, is unhealthy for Wikipedia editing. The block log shows that this historic behaviour is not improving. Which is why I think a very long block is in order. I am going to invite administrator Sandstein who dealt with a similar case with similar users to take a survey of these cases. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 07:14, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Capitals00 by JosephusOfJerusalem

Well lets see your defense case. It has not yet been decided by the administrators at Copyright problems/2018 May 10 that there have definitely been copyright violations yet your WP:PERSONALATTACKs and repetitive uncivil accusations of incompetence against NadirAli and SheriffIsInTown are unceasing and relentless.[3][4][5] So you were already skating on thin ice there. Your response also does not address the uncalled for WP:ASPERSIONS you cast on Samee. This comment is nowhere near the level of WP:PERSONALATTACK the way your comment is in diff 8. WP:BRD here is no justification for this rude (diff 4) vitriolic accusation of incompetence by you on The Discoverer's talkpage. As for Talk:Siachen conflict it does not matter what consensus is or not until it has been reached. You were making accusations of incompetence and generally incivil replies while discussion was ongoing.

Now for your offense case, which is a classic deraiment which cannot justify your misconduct (read WP:NOTTHEM) lets break it down. Going by this user's edit history it is definitely a sleeper account, last active in 2016, then showed up to do a revert and vitriolic talkpost before disappearing and not responding ever again on Talk:Princely state despite the disruption caused. This comment on my talkpage was not a WP:PERSONALATTACK, not least considering that in that context the discussion was initiated by a spurious accusation against me of making ″deceptive pov edits″ (a reference to this plain verifiable edit which has no POV). This edit is an entirely verifiable edit which you wrongly call ″gossip″. The rest of your diffs about me[6][7][8] are either before Bishonen's advice or they are a misrepresentation of my messages of appeal to administrators to stop edit wars. The latter is not WP:CANVASSING.

Again read WP:NOTTHEM. Your misconduct stands unjustified. The evidence concerning you is definitely more extensive than 10 diffs if I really put my mind to collecting them. An example can be your revert of a WP:STATUSQUO version of History of Gilgit Baltistan with a deceptive edit summary of WP:BRD and again here just today after Mar4d was kind enough to restore the WP:STATUSQUO. It is also worth noting you had no prior or subsequent participation at Talk:Princely state despite the false use of WP:BRD in your edit summary.

Response to Raymond3023 by JosephusOfJerusalem

You have not addressed any of Capitals00's misconduct. Rather you have engaged in WP:IDHT by repeating Capitals00's arguments which I have already quashed here.

Perhaps it is natural you will defend Capitals00 and D4iNa4 given your history of coordination with them. I point to the evidence of WP:TAGTEAM here

See Raymond3023/Capitals00 coordination [9][10][11][12]
See D4iNa4/Raymond3023 [13][14][15][16][17].
The same voting is also more evidence.[18][19]. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 10:46, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Power~enwiki by JosephusOfJerusalem

This is a critical analysis of your comment, here. You claim ″The Balochistan one makes nobody look good; perhaps those diffs should be ignored.″ I think you are mistakenly making a false equivalence and making a broad generalisation by unfairly painting everyone with the same brush without due regard to the behavioural facts.

Lets take a look at what happened. The first reply was from Samee, the second was from me. There were no personal attacks or direct comments about specific editors by either of us. According to Dennis Brown a bit of minor push and shove is okay. Now here is Capitals00's reply to both of us. It is certainly not a minor push and shove. Capitals00 cast WP:ASPERSIONS on Samee, ″Looks like he told you to come here and misrepresent the entire issue for him.″ He also attacked me directly and personally without provocation, ″Making up nonsense would result in sanctions against you. You know that NadirAli has WP:CIR issues, just like you do.″ Now lets take a look at my reply. Can you see any WP:PA in my recitation of the guidelines? Compare this with Capitals00's next response, ″You can keep the wikilawyering nonsense with yourself.″

Now lets get to the Capitals00-SheriffIsInTown exchange. This is SheriffIsInTown's comment with no WP:PA. This is Capitals00's reply, ″I believe though that you have no issue with them since your actual motive is to defend NadirAli, no matter what you have to say.″ SheriffIsInTown replied again, with no WP:PA to which Capitals00 answered with this. The next part of the chat is not bad [20][21]. It continues until Capitals00 resumes the personal attacks, disruption accusations and CIR taunts on SheriffIsInTown, ″In place of whinning over these reports ...Seems like you don't even know what is a copyright given your CIR issue...Stop wishing that editors should allow you and NadirAli disrupt as much as you want.″

Going through this history shows that the problem is coming only from Capitals00's ″side″ here. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 03:48, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

power~enwiki: The ″retaliatory″ suggestion was in response not to the copyright violation claim, which is itself yet to be decided, but a response to this block demand in Capitals00's comment, ″I would urge admin to block him″. I do not believe there is an equivalence between the users there. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 04:18, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

power~enwiki: This ″wiki-lawyering″ can not justify this attack, nor this earlier one. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 04:21, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

power~enwiki: You endorsed a T-Ban for me. Once again, I am going to ask you which diffs convince you that is necessary? I have already replied to you here about those which you mentioned. List the rest please. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 04:14, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Justlettersandnumbers

Can you point out the diffs of ″combative behaviour″? I have already explained in length here, with detailed explanation of diffs, that the problems are entirely one-sided. I agree with SheriffIsInTown's statement that the behavioural problems of a few editors are being unfairly thought of as a problem from everyone. There is no need to create a false equivalence between everyone for the bad actions of a few. Justice does not mean collective punishment, it means identifying the culprit, this is not a Catholic high school where the whole class gets lunch detention because of a few naughty students. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 11:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Vanamonde93 by JosephusOfJerusalem

I don't think its appropriate for you to comment here because you are involved in much of where Capitals00 is and you are also quite evidently friendly with and defensive of Kautilya3. The user you are protecting calls simple edits such as these "deceptive POV edits" and calls my verifiable editing "smearing." He also thinks these simple and verifiable edits[22][23] are some sort of game. This is an exhibition of battleground behaviour. And shortly after making an incorrect equivalence between me and Capitalsoo's blatant misconduct to ask that I also be blocked with Capitals00, he decides to revert a more than week old edit of mine on a page where both of us had been active and where he had not reverted me before now, since I made the edit. This opportune timing to revert me after commenting against me is also a textbook example of his WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 21:43, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde93, if you think I am not innocent why not prove it with diffs? As I said you are involved. You have long associations with Kautilya3. Its not right for you to comment here. The issue of involved administrators has been brought up on AE before. And if you seriously want to evaluate everyone's behaviour look at this. After I created this section on Talk:Exodus of Kashmiri Hindus Kautilya3 left this notice on my talkpage. He accused me of "targeting editors" just because I opened sections with user names in the headings. What's remarkable is that he does that himself, but that is not targeting editors? Just last month he created a section on Talk:1947 Jammu massacres with a heading calling my edits "Poor quality edits". He also accused me then and there of making "POV edits" and fighting "silly games" because of this verifiable edit. Evidently, when I see other TPs, I am not the only user having this issue of double standards with him. Sandstein I would encourage you to look at the evidence I have given about Kautilya3 here. I belive they are very much a net negative for the encyclopedia. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 06:05, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GoldenRing: I don't think what has been given attention to is that this is a misconduct issue more than anything else, which spans more than the India-Pakistan topic area. This diff is a case in point. Topic bans won't be of any help in breaking the personal rudeness and incivility impasse, which is the main concern of my report. It will just continue in other topic areas. This issue can only be dealt with by interaction bans. That way the rudeness can be dealt with. I don't think topic bans are necessary at this point. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 12:39, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GoldenRing: You just added me to the list. Can you provide the diff you are basing such a decision on? As in, where have I shown incivility that warrants such an idea? JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 12:50, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Collective treatment (punishment) is not the answer which will mete out justice. If justice is to be done the admins need to evaluate each user ;;individually. If the admins feel they don't have the time to do individual evaluations I will withdraw this case. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 13:54, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Response to GoldenRing by JosephusOfJerusalem Pt.1

You have cited these three diffs, (diff1,diff2,diff3) as ″evidence″ of my misconduct. I made no personal attack here, I was just making a general comment about the nature of the indefinite block request that it seemed like a disproportionate retaliatory request because of NadirAli's involvement in a SPI against Capitals00 in the recent past. According to Dennis Brown a bit of minor push and shove is okay. What is exactly wrong in my recitation of Wikipedia guidelines here? It was the most civil response I could give to this inflammatory comment. I deserve marks for keeping my cool in the face of such heat, not punishment. And this diff is by no means a misconduct because WP:RPA entitles any editor to remove personal attacks. My AfD nomination here is by no means actionable. It is an article with only two references, one of them called the "News Laundry". This is also a civil reply considering the heat I was up against. I heeded Bishonen's advice and I did not make any more comments like that after his message on my talkpage. And how is my participation here battleground mentality? I have faced problems with some users' conduct and thats all I wanted dealt with. And why don't you look at Kautilya3 's actions? He calls simple edits such as these "deceptive POV edits" and calls my verifiable editing "smearing." He also thinks these simple and verifiable edits[24][25] are some sort of game. Isn't this an exhibition of battleground behaviour? And look at this. After I created this section on Talk:Exodus of Kashmiri Hindus Kautilya3 left this notice on my talkpage. He accused me of "targeting editors" just because I opened sections with user names in the headings. What's remarkable is that he does that himself, but that is not targeting editors? Just last month he created a section on Talk:1947 Jammu massacres with a heading calling my edits "Poor quality edits". He also accused me then and there of making "POV edits" and fighting "silly games" because of this verifiable edit. Evidently, when I see other TPs, I am not the only user having this issue of double standards with him. You should also consider what I have to face and the civility I have maintained in spite of all this. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 20:43, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Response to GoldenRing by JosephusOfJerusalem Pt.2

@Lord Roem: NadirAli has just pointed out that Kautilya3 has contravened his ethnicity claims restriction you imposed on him. I was not aware of this restriction otherwise I would have filed a separate report for Kautilya3 earlier. Kautilya3 is now claiming through retrospective reasoning that their reference to me being a Jewish historian was actually a reference to my study of Jewish history. They likely drew the idea of this excuse from my answer to NadirAli's question. Your restriction quite explicitly stated that any attempt to bring up a user's ethnicity would lead to an immediate block. And Jewish is certainly an ethnicity. He shouldn't have mentioned it at all. If they were truthful they would have clearly said historian of Jews. He did not. This is a violation and he is now trying to wriggle his way out by giving a new meaning to his words, as I said, through ex post facto reasoning.

I have also already given the admins evidence here about Kautilya3's uncollaborative attitude in editing. I also don't buy his claim of WP:NPOV. You can see this as an example. On Talk:Princely state he is trying and stonewalling to include Kalat, a Baloch state, as a state annexed by Pakistan[26] but is arguing and stonewalling against the inclusion of Manipur, a state that India annexed.[27] Its also important that Kautilya3 was very close to another sealioner (later caught out as a sock) Ms Sarah Welch who also did stealthy biased editing.[28] This ″closeness″ can be seen by this comment which shows Ms Sarah Welch even knew what Kautilya3 was doing in real life.[29] I also read in a recent SPI that Kautilya3 even misrepresented sock policy to protect Ms Sarah Welch from a block.[30]. Given such behaviour I don't think his claims can be given any credibility. I also pinged GoldenRing to take a look at the evidence and not ignore the double standards I have had to put up with from this user. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 23:48, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I also just noticed the aspersions restriction. Surely his accusation against me of making "deceptive POV edits" in this simple edit comes under WP:ASPERSIONS? JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 23:52, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would also ask that Kautilya3 cease any more references to my heritage because he is under ethnicity claims restrictions and it disturbs me. I don't recall calling him by his nationality. It should be fair. Kautilya3 also continues to praise Ms Sarah Welch and doubts that she was a sock. After that he also claims he is not an involved party here. This despite his presence on most of these diffs and the way I have been treated by him. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 04:03, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Deceptive POV edits"

So this is Kautilya3's justification for calling my edit a "deceptive POV edit". I am going to deconstruct this. 1. NadirAli pointed out that the journal was available online. 2. So this is an organisation funded by the Indian Ministry of Defence. I changed "shaping" to "influencing" because I did not think there was a big deal of a difference. In fact "shaping" in my book implies greater "influence" so I actually toned it down and made it sound extra-neutral. 3. I added "claims to be" before "autonomous and non-partisan" because it came from self-published sources and is a self-sourced claim. 4. I added "independent" to a Pakistani think tank because that is what Pluto Journals, respectably associated with JSTOR called it. I do not accept the sources Kautilya3 added (over the protests of other users) because I think Pluto Journals is more qualified to know the nature of that institution than journalists. The above were essentially content disputes and I know shouldn't be here on WP:AE. But what I am trying to say is that he had no right in any way to call my edit "deceptive POV". JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 03:58, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Seraphimblade by JosephusOfJerusalem

Seraphimblade, Lets leave Kautilya3's restrictions aside for a moment. If you think I should be sanctioned for such mild words here, diff1, diff2, diff3, then why shouldn't the same stick be applied to Kautilya3 for these threats and condescending remarks?

If you want more proof then look at this. Kautilya3 left a message on PeerBaba's TP telling him to slow down his editing because of WP:NPOV issues. Okay fine. But why so aghast if I had similar objectons about their edits. He accused me of "spurious WP:IDONTLIKEIT revert" (see diff). His patronising attitude is widespread.("Your WP:SOAPBOXing for Pakistan include statements like...You have to maintain WP:NPOV and give equal WP:WEIGHT for both India and Pakistan. This is not Pakistanopedia!") Can't you see the battleground attitude?

My alleged misbehaviour ([31][32][33]) was before Bishonen's advice to me.[34] Therefore I should be cut some slack about those diffs. I want to ask you Bishonen, that if my "bad faith" warranted this message in February why can't the same be told to Kautilya3 for his accusation of deceptive POV editing, on my TP? All I am saying is that I want equitable treatment. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 02:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[35]

Discussion concerning Capitals00

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Capitals00

Looks like JosephusOfJerusalem is back to his usual modus operandi by filing frivolous report on this board to get rid of his opponents like he has also done before.

10 diffs from last 4 months is all he got? When you are wasting time of majority of editors by going against consensus and engaging in disruption, you just can't expect other editors not to cite WP:CIR and WP:IDHT or react. To reply all those cherrypicked diffs, it is a mere reaction when you see hoards of disruption by editors engaging in violations of WP:OR (diff 8), WP:COPYVIO (diff 5), WP:BRD,(diff 4) WP:NPA/WP:IDHT (diff 1),(diff 2), (diff 3), (diff 6 and diff 7), (diff 9), (diff 10). Citing WP:CIR is not a personal attack, because that page is "an explanatory supplement to the disruptive editing guideline" per community consensus.[36] Much of the diffs here comes from Talk:Siachen conflict where consensus was to include what I supported. Why you can't show diffs where I was going against consensus or I had been problematic and had no consensus for edits?

JosephusOfJerusalem has always engaged in personal attacks:-

"page was quite stable until 30 April when a sleeper account" [37] (referring a long term editor as "sleeper")
"People who have battles to fight and socks in contact will have the L-RD" [38]
"removing POV warrior's bad faith message" [39]
"removing threats from the POV warriors" [40]
"bad faith warning by a disruptive editor on the verge of being blocked" [41]

And rest of the diffs of this report and below one comes from Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2018 May 10, where JosephusOfJersualem has defended copyright violation by falsely claiming that "I could not find any copyright violations".[42] Now that is clear evidence of WP:CIR and WP:DE, and he also attempted to selectively censor a comment that he didn't liked.[43] Clearly he has competence issues and thinks that it is a personal attack if WP:CIR has been cited to him, despite his defense of copyrights violation and clear WP:IDHT.

In a separate incident from February 2018, he was arguing against 4 editors and alleging of them failure of "WP:LISTEN" and engagement in "WP:CANVASSING", ""WP:DISRUPTION".[44][45] It shows that he resorts to falsely allege others of misconduct only because he is not getting consensus for his POV.

He had been also warned by Bishonen for this problematic editing. However there has been no improvement and the attitude of this editor has only worsened. Furthermore, Bishonen had asked him if "there anything you'd like to share about any previous account/s?"[46] given he registered on 18 October 2017 and has been too professed when it comes to WP:GAMING. JosephusOfJerusalem suspiciously removed that message.[47]

I would request an indefinite topic ban on JosephusOfJerusalem per evidence above as well as for the following:-

WP:EDITWAR: edit warring on Jawaharlal Nehru by promoting controversial gossips,[48][49] despite having no support for his problematic edits.[50] Edit warring on Indian nationalism.[51][52][53]
WP:CANVASS: Canvassed multiple editors to help him in his edit war by restoring his preferred version.[54][55][56]
WP:CIR: Defending copyright violations as noted above. Misrepresentation of "WP:STATUSQUO on talk pages, by restoring new edits that have no consensus.[57][58]
WP:BATTLEGROUND: Usually prefers to allege others of bad faith,[59], create frivolous AfD of notable subject,[60] cites unrelated policies to derail discussion.[61] Capitals00 (talk) 08:20, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GoldenRing: As the saying goes, there is no fire without smoke. Since sanctions are based on actual evidence of disruption, we need to check that who is really making problematic edits and helping most in creating unnecessary problems for further ruining the collaborative environment despite past sanctions and warnings. Razer2115 has provided some evidence for SheriffIsInTown and I have already provided evidence against JosephusOfJerusalem above. My analysis about others concerning their very recent disruption is as follow:-

NadirAli: 3 reverts in 38 minutes on Princely state,[62][63][64], restored copyvio[65] and failure to admit copyright violations,[66] generalization of sources by nationality,[67] hostile behavior,[68][69] rehashing a rejected SPI. (WP:HARASS).[70][71][72]

NadirAli was site-banned by ArbCom[73] and topic banned by ArbCom upon return from India, Pakistan and Afghanistan.[74] He is currently topic banned from image uploads,[75] was blocked in relation to WP:ARBIPA as recently as June 2017,[76] and has been brought to ARE multiple times during last year and already had enough warnings.[77][78]

TripWire: edit warring against consensus on Siachen conflict,[79][80] copyright violation,[81] IDHT and personal attacks.[82][83][84][85]

In 2015, he was topic banned for 6 months from Pakistan politics and Pakistani-Indian conflicts.[86] In 2016, he was topic banned from Balochistan articles for 3 months and put under a "casting aspersions" restriction" along with Kautilya3.[87] On February 2018, he was blocked for violating subject restrictions[88] and was warned by Dennis Brown that "likely a topic ban will be used next".[89]

Mar4d: edit warring on 2016 Indian Line of Control strike, [90][91][92] India–Pakistan border skirmishes (2016–present),[93][94][95] Sindhudesh,[96][97] misrepresentation of sources,[98] repeated IDHT,[99][100] rehashing a rejected SPI (WP:HARASS).[101][102] (closed by Bbb23) [103] (comment removed by Bbb23)

He was never sanctioned before in relations to WP:ARBIPA. Though he has been most disruptive as per the evidence.

If these editors had been sanctioned earlier, I don't think any of these problems would be arising to this extent. I believe that NadirAli and TripWire are the only candidates that deserves to be topic banned because it has been already proven that previous topic bans on their accounts have not worked. I am 100% hopeful that things will surely improve without having these two editors in this area.

The language that I have used had to be a lot better, about which I agree. But so far no evidence of problematic article editing has provided for me and D4iNa4, and we have not engaged in edit warring, IDHT, OR, COPYVIO, or any other forms of WP:DE. MapSGV has not a participated in any of the disputes that you have linked, why you have proposed a ban on him?

I am watching SPI that concerns JosephusOfJerusalem though his above filibustering is difficult to follow. I guess a topic ban on him is not really going to hurt. As for SheriffIsInTown and Mar4d, I believe that they would carefully read this complaint and indeed avoid the actions that resulted the situation. Capitals00 (talk) 13:28, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Raymond3023

Ironic to see an offensive editor, editing with a battleground mentality, often assuming bad faith and demonstrating significant competence issues is talking about "civility".

These two reports are result of the failure of JosephusOfJerusalem to get his preferred non-consensus version of Princely state protected after trying hard for it.[104][105][106][107]

It is fair to say that JOJ is a case of WP:CIR and probably WP:NOTHERE, since he is mostly engaging in ethnic POV battles, similar to "Towns Hill" (a banned sockmaster).

JOJ's failure to understand copyrights, STATUSQUO, and misrepresentation other relevant policies while mass canvassing other editors with the hopes that he would receive some support for his frivolous report shows that having him topic banned or blocked indefinitely would be best for us. Raymond3023 (talk) 10:30, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MBlaze Lightning

This is frivolous complaint; there is nothing in the diffs which would even remotely constitute "personal attacks". Also, it is worth mentioning that the majority of the diffs in question are months old—some of them dates back to February, 20 i.e. they are stale. Things get heated up in these subjects, especially when you are dealing with clear WP:OR, WP:COPYVIO, WP:NPA, WP:IDHT, but there is nothing sanctionable.

JosephusOfJerusalem comments demonstrates a glaring lack of understanding of the very policies that he citing, not to mention his gross battleground mentality as is evident from his comments here and elsewhere. I also agree with the above comments that JosephusOfJerusalem is desperately trying to get the editors with an opposite POV topic banned so that he could push his POV in peace. And not long ago, JosephusOfJerusalem has filed a similar frivolous report against another established editor.[108]

If JosephusOfJerusalem perceives comments like, "You can keep the wikilawyering nonsense with yourself" as "WP:PERSONALATTACK", then he's clearly demonstrating incompetency. He does not even know when to indent and when to outdent his comments,[109][110] so he should not be astonished when an established editor points him to WP:CIR.

What's more striking is that these filings are strongly reminiscent of filings of socks of Faizan/Towns Hill, in particular Sardeeph (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who used to file similar spurious reports against me and Kautilya3 in order to get them blocked by citing similar trivial or non-violations. Sardeeph was eventually blocked by Boing! said Zebedee and Black Kite for WP:NOTHERE after a long ANI thread[111] that he had himself started and cited same type of evidence that JosephusOfJerusalem has cited here as well as attempted to canvass dozens of editors just like JosephusOfJerusalem is doing here.

Similarities between Sardeeph and JosephusOfJerusalem are just more than that. There is a clear case of WP:DUCK.

Sardeeph filed two AE reports, against me and Kautilya3 on 30 July.[112][113]
And today JosephusOfJerusalem filed two AE reports, against Capitals00 and D4iNa4.
Even the notification left by JosephusOfJerusalem and Sardeeph are totally same:

There is a discussion about your behaviour at WP:AE.[114]

Please see WP:AE for discussion about your behavior.[115]

Sardeeph was indeffed on 20 October 2017. JosephusOfJerusalem registered on 18 October but made his first article space edit on 31 October.[116] I see no doubt that JosephusOfJerusalem is a sock of Sardeeph and he should be blocked for his block evasion. MBlaze Lightning ^talk 13:54, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I've filed an SPI report here. MBlaze Lightning ^talk 15:40, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mar4d

Support indefinite block on Capitals00; According to JoJ's editing history, he is a neutral user and someone who doesn't have a personal, vested history in this disruption-ridden topic area. Unfortunately I find his observations spot on, having seen Capitals00's edit warring, incessant personal attacks, WP:NOTTHEM excuses and disruptive WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour across all pages. The above WP:WALLOFTEXT is the latest example. This unmanageable approach and attitude is justified and tolerated repeatedly without consequence, and the long-term harm it is doing to the project is completely unaccounted for.

This user is responsible for creating a deeply toxic editing environment, and has no one to single-handedly blame but himself. Unlike JoJ, the vast majority of Capitals00's recent talk page interactions involve personal attacks and confrontational vitriol directed at others, not to mention continuous condescending harassment, and there's stack-loads of evidence: [117] [118] [119] [120] [121] [122] [123] [124], [125]. [126], [127], [128], [129], [130], [131], [132], [133], [134], [135], [136], [137], [138], [139], [140], [141], [142]. This adds on to the myriad of edit wars, escalating new content disputes, and forcing in relentless WP:POV. It is no wonder then that the entire topic area is in a pitiable condition, when these problems are just the tip of the iceberg. I will take strong exception to MBL and Raymond3023, both of whom are involved users (their own highly problematic conduct issues require a chapter), who defended this user's disruption first on an SPI case (where he himself was not available for defense), and then in the most frivolous example of WP:TAGTEAM on ANI. When multiple people are observing the same, the question is, how long? This needs to end as it has become a net negative for Wikipedia, and it's time the curtains are pulled. For a user who has consistently shown no signs of improvement or reform, an indefinite block is in order. Mar4d (talk) 14:30, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@D4iNa4: Well, it's a WP:CFORK which was copy-pasted right out of an existing article on the same topic, rejuvenated under a title already rejected by consensus, and it's a copyright violation based on WP:CWW with no text attribution. So yes, I will follow the rules and it will be pursued at WP:DELREV. You meanwhile have serious conduct issues as inherent below and in your response. Mar4d (talk) 15:14, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by D4iNa4

Come on Mar4d. Regardless of your long term disruption, you had to be blocked indefinitely a few hours ago for your exceptional disruption on 2016 Indian Line of Control strike. That you edit warred to get that article redirected[143][144] then you started a senseless AFD [145] and after already realizing that you will fail to get the article deleted, you tried to get it deleted under frivolous A10,[146] and after that your senseless AfD was closed as WP:SNOW "speedy keep" under a few hours.[147] That's what sanctionable conduct is, not the diffs showing Capitals providing warnings/guidance to users that you have misrepresented just like you misrepresented. Don't talk about "improvements" when you fail to get consensus on just every single article that you disrupt, such as 2016 Indian Line of Control strike, Siachen conflict, Kashmir conflict, India–Pakistan border skirmishes (2016–present) and lots more. D4iNa4 (talk) 14:44, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mar4d, that was not a WP:CFORK. You are still not getting that the article's creation was totally valid and was created following the consensus on talk page. Why you even bother to tell you are right and everyone is wrong? Or that you just don't like to get over the results because the consensus is always goes against you. D4iNa4 (talk) 15:28, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde93, you have misrepresented diffs in your comment. The four diffs provided by Raymond3023 are showing that how JosephusOfJerusalem was WP:GAMING the system to get his version protected by edit warring[148] and misrepresenting WP:STATUSQUO.[149] I should also mention that NadirAli made 3 reverts in less than one hour.[150][151][152] On 14:44 yesterday, the comment I had made here by including the diff for "speedy close" is much before the diff for "swiftly reversed" you are providing, because the revert of the the speedy closure happened on 16:21, nearly two hours after my comment on here. You can ask any uninvolved admin if a block is warranted for restoring the copyright violation for which the user has already received a warning, the answer you will get would be yes. Bigger question is that why it happened at first place, had NadirAli never violated copyrights or just heeded the warning he had already received?[153] Given he has been blocked enough times for copyrights before, why really made him deliberately ignore copyright violation? I will be adding more evidence here of actual misconduct but right now I am more inclined to wait for the outcome of the SPI: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sardeeph. D4iNa4 (talk) 18:14, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde93, your comment read like I was ignoring the revert of the closure, though the revert came almost 2 hours later. For what it's really worth, I haven't even voted in that AfD but I am absolutely confident that the AFD will result in "Keep". If it did, then my comment would stand taller that the idea of nominating the article for AfD is clear evidence of WP:TE because a user should not be nominating those articles for deletion that are obviously going to be kept, especially when the user in question is here for long enough. D4iNa4 (talk) 18:45, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SheriffIsInTown

Support indefinite block for Capitals00, Raymond3023 and MBlaze Lightning: I will not lengthen my argument with too many diffs of these users bad behavior as this AE has gotten already very lengthy. There are many diffs provided by JOJ and Mar4d regarding Capitals00's behavior and those should be good enough to get them banned. I would just note one additional point that Capitals00 accused OP of canvassing which is a fake accusation considering they were only bringing attention of neutral and uninvolved administrators towards issues on different pages, that is no canvassing especially when OP themselves are a neutral editor in WP:ARBIPA area. Also, in their defence, Capitals00 is accusing "JosephusOfJerusalem suspiciously removed that message" for removing a message from their own talk page for which they have complete prerogative. Using arguments like these to defend their actions is self-defeating.

WP:ARBIPA calls for a conducive and coherent environment. WP:CIR might be an extension to a policy but that is not to be cited in every comment against your opponents on WP:ARBIPA articles. It is insulting to call all other editors incompetent who disagree with you. Capitals00 has been doing this in defiance of WP:ARBIPA, they are using WP:CIR as an excuse to insult their opponents.

I am supporting an indef ban for Raymond3023 and MBlaze Lightning for their accusation of socking in this very thread against the OP. WP:ARBIPA prohibits such bad faith accusations against other editors. As a matter of fact MBlaze Lightning has already once reported JOJ under a different master than the one they are associating them with in this thread. It looks like they are unable to make up their mind and associating OP with different sockmasters just to get their point through and defend the accused in vain. This is not the proper place to accuse someone of socking and that too without proper evidence plus accusing OP for socking without evidence would not take the violations of Capitals00 away. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 16:52, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@power~enwiki: No, this is not what WP:ARBIPA is for, we do not ban most if not all. Evidence is evaluated, then violators are banned. Your statement is unhelpful and destructive for the project, it seems as if when opinion starts to turn against one editor and a ban looks evident, someone comes and says let's ban most if not all so as to confuse the admins (not that they can be) and derail the conversation.

@Razer2115: You should be banned for casting WP:ASPERSIONS and bringing that SPI here. That SPI has no bearing on this AE and was filed after and in retaliation of these arbitration enforcement requests. You twisted it to make it look like these requests were filed after the SPI and matter is already decided that JOJ is the sock of Sardeeph. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 22:15, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Power~enwiki: Please read WP:ARBIPA, once you will read that, you will understand my argument. After, reading that up, please evaluate the diffs provided by the OP and Mar4d against Capitals00 and evaluate the socking allegation made against OP by MBlaze Lightning and Raymond3023. The act of Razer2115 to bring that undecided SPI falls under WP:ASPERSIONS, they made it look like OP filed this report because of the SPI rather SPI was filed because of AE. Also, these reports has nothing to do with content disputes rather it is about the behavior of editors on WP:ARBIPA sanctioned pages. They are to refrain from creating toxic environment by making insulting remarks, socking allegations and expression of bad faith. Referencing WP:CIR might be allowed when you really want to report someone for their lack of competency but it is not and should not be allowed on WP:ARBIPA sanctioned pages, at least not at this scale. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 03:50, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: I saw your statements recommending t-ban for everyone and that concerns me a lot especially because you are an admin and I feel like you might be including me in that list. You are referring to statements made in the discussion about copyvio. My participation in that conversation might just be because of my own misunderstanding about copyvio since I have seen edits by Kautilya3 which include the quotes in citations. OP there was asking for an indef ban for NadirAli, which made me concerned. Although, my comments on that forum did not have any personal attacks compared to Capitals00 but I am willing to retract those comments if I can to avoid a topic ban as I had a clean slate so far and would like to avoid any ban at any cost. Let me know what could work for you and other admins minus a t-ban for me. I would also like to point out that Mar4d never participated in that copyvio discussion. There is an election season in Pakistan and collective ban such as proposed here would stop editors from editing all Pakistan pages not just the conflict pages thus shortening the number of editors and hurting the project overall so I request a reconsideration. @Sandstein, Ivanvector, and Seraphimblade:, see my comment addressed to Vanamonde93 above. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 18:40, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The latest diffs presented by Razer again fall under WP:ASPERSIONS as most of those diffs are of different people reaching out to different admins requesting to address some concerns and I do not think there is anything wrong with that. Those are also closed matters, if an admin would have thought of them as a problem, they would have taken an action there and then. For example, Mar4d opening an ANI request was closed by an admin, for example me reaching out to Ivanvector, the conversation continued because he was kind enough to look at the matter and he is still willing to, same is with my matter with Bbb23, I accepted to Bbb23 that my comments were overboard and that matter was resolved amicably. Citing diffs which put the editors in negative light and ignoring the ones where admins closed the matter, or where they were williling to work with the editors or where editors changed their behavior to positivity comes under WP:ASPERSIONS if I am correct. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 10:39, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@GoldenRing: I see my name in your list of violators, can you be kind enough please to let me know what the violation is so I can adjust my behavior going forward, I have been personally attacked at many occasions by many editors and have been trying not to respond in kind but might have gotten hot-headed at times realizing later on that it was not a good idea to comment in such a way but I have never been uncivil at the level of some other editors. I would love to see the diffs of my questionable behavior so I can explain/adjust my behavior. I would request you to please reconsider your recommendation as I have never gotten any ban before and would like to keep the clean slate. I have never been given an opportunity to defend or explain my behavior if anyone have seen an issue with it before. @Ivanvector: Please reconsider your endorsement of t-ban for me. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 13:31, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@GoldenRing and Bishonen: I am still waiting for the diffs of my problematic behavior on which this decision is being based so I can defend myself and/or explain my position. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 15:10, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@GoldenRing: I was just trying to be creative with my comment and did not mean to threaten the editor rather I was talking about the evidence but I realized that I might have stepped a line over there and did try to clean up the mess by removing the comment and then striking it out. The closing admin did not take any action so I thought the matter was closed. Also, it had nothing to do with WP:ARBIPA, I did not engage with any of these two editors (Capitals00 (lately) and Uncle Sargam (overall) involved in that ANI on India-Pakistan conflict article but I regret that those comments were inappropriate. I also never thought that just a participation in this discussion can get me a ban, I proposed bans based on the reasons specified in my statement keeping in mind that the final decision would definitely rest with the admin going through my statement and not just because I am proposing something. If you do not consider the behavior of those editors problematic as described by me then you do not have to ban them, I am willing to withdraw my statement, I did not know that enforcement of WP:ARBIPA would mean clearing the decks on both sides, my understanding was that every editor’s behavior would be evaluated in connection with India-Pakistan conflict articles and then the matter will be decided. Anything minus topic-ban? A warning should be sufficient. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 15:53, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@GoldenRing: That big box in red meant to me that my conduct on WP:ARBIPA sanctioned pages will be reviewed not all over conduct and I never thought that the closed matters such as ANIs and SPIs closed by admins will be considered as well, the SPI you linked somewhere above, I never contested the decision made by admins even once, I did put a lot of hard work in it but accepted the decision, no policy says that if you suspect someone of socking and you have the evidence, still do not file the SPI because you might be sanctioned under a request filed by a third person such as JosephusOfJerusalem in this case. I was hardly interacting with Capitals00 and MapSGV at the time but they were in my mind because of some behavioral similarities but when I dug deeper I found more evidence, I was just wikidefending when I filed that SPI, I never thought for once that this would be considered as battleground behavior. All other outstanding diffs provided by other editors about me are a lot milder than some of the editors here but I am still getting the same punishment. Wikipedia is not about punishment rather it is about prevention and I think I understand more about the process now than when this AE was filed and can ensure that my behavior would be better just because of this whole interaction alone and there is no t-ban needed for this. I have seen admins close AEs before with just warnings, I was never warned but getting a straight punishment.

I value my reputation as an editor and a formal ban by an admin would be a big stain on my editing. If it suffices the admins, I can propose that I will voluntarily stay off the India-Pakistan conflict related pages for two months but would not like to get a formal ban by an admin in the form of their final decision or a notification on my talk page, if I violate the voluntary stay-away promise then admins can impose a harsher restriction.

Also, I would like to note that I received my ARBIPA alert at least for this year after a lot of interactions has already happened which are shown in those diffs. I have been only on Wikipedia occasionally most of 2016 and 2017 and people tend to forget about these things when they are not highly active. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 16:30, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Voluntary abstention proposal

Addendum to last message above:

@GoldenRing and Seraphimblade: I am only filling and rescuing references across different topics nowadays and can easily avoid ARBIPA topic area thus there is no official sanctioning needed by admins. I propose that I will voluntarily abstain from editing India-Pakistan conflict pages for two months (negotiable if admins consider it is too low then I request you to please suggest the term limit) with the exception of filling and rescueing references (I am requesting that I be allowed to do this on India-Pakistan conflict pages as well, as this action does not change the content). I also request that this should be written in the final decision as “SheriffIsInTown agrees to voluntarily abstain from editing India-Pakistan conflict pages for x months with the exception of filling and rescueing existing references on those pages”.

I also request that no notification be left on my talk page regarding this decision.

I am a responsible editors and I will abide by it on my own.

Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 22:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by power~enwiki

Many of the editors involved here "on both sides" of the India-Pakistan conflict are out of control. I'd recommend the AE admins consider sanctions against most (if not all) of the involved parties here. I note recent ANI threads from May 5 (on sock-puppetry) and April 14 (on Hookah) as involving many of these editors and being fairly disasterous. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:20, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly can't keep straight which of Capitals00, D4iNa4, Mar4d, Raymond3023 and MBlaze Lightning are on which side of any disputes here, but the constant bickering to get each other banned is disruptive, unhelpful, and destructive. I'm not as familiar with SheriffIsInTown, but disagree with their opinion here. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:06, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The two most recent disagreements appear to be at Talk:History of Balochistan (moved from a copyvio board) and Talk:Siachen conflict#Warning. The Balochistan one makes nobody look good; perhaps those diffs should be ignored.

The Siachen one makes Mar4d and Tripwire look bad, and Capitals00's frustration, though not ideal editing behavior, is understandable. We describe the Korean War as ending when the armistice was signed, and a 15-year ceasefire should be interpreted as the end of a conflict and not as evidence the conflict is ongoing. Regardless, that's a content dispute. power~enwiki (π, ν) 01:28, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Josephus: Suggesting that a copyright infringement complaint is purely "retaliatory" is a bit more than pushing-and-shoving, especially on a page where the discussion should be about whether copyright violations have occurred. I'm not sure how much of the 31KB change is the removal of quotes from this diff as other changes are intertwined, but it's clearly a lot. I don't take Capitals00's immediate request for an indef to be in good faith, but the copyright concern looks to be a legitimate concern. I do agree that Capitals00 seems to be the worst offender in terms of escalating things, but nobody involved here has clean hands. power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:11, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And it's true, the acronym soup of [154] is wiki-lawyering. That's not unique to you; every single person in this discussion so far (myself included) wiki-lawyers too much. It's not a crime to call a spade a spade. power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:14, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Josephus: you may be right. Perhaps Capitals00 will attempt to defend his behavior, rather than simply giving an alphabet-soup of attacks against the people he was replying to. power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:27, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not familiar enough with SheriffIsInTown or NadirAli to suggest anything one way or the other. MapSGV has been fairly idle after a ARBIPA TBAN was lifted by ARBCOM at the end of March, I'm not sure they should be included again. I support including the other 7 named editors (Capitals00, JosephusOfJerusalem, D4iNa4, Mar4d, TripWire, MBlaze Lightning, and Raymond3023) in any bulk action. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:50, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Razer2115

WP:AE is not supposed to be used by tireless POV-pushers to try to eliminate editors who clearly have much better grasp of WP:NPOV, WP:BRD, WP:CON, WP:COPYVIO and other relevant policies. Report seems to have been filed by a probable sock per recently opened Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sardeeph and is nonetheless frivolous. Razer(talk) 18:35, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ignoring the WP:ASPERSIONS as well as misrepresention of evidence around, I find serious issues with some editors I am describing below.

Two users of this case, SheriffIsInTown[155] and NadirAli[156] were working hard to reject obvious copyright violation and they are now desperately derailing a strong SPI by lending defense to a suspected sock even after one CheckUser has commented that the account is extraordinarily suspicious.[157][158][159]

Consensus building and dispute resolutions have been already tried, but clear evidence of unwillingness to get over the outcome from NadirAli, Mar4d,[160][161] SheriffIsInTown[162][163][164][165][166] and TripWire[167][168] with their frequent WP:FORUMSHOPPING for already resolved issues has been most disruptive. Razer(talk) 07:27, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vanamonde93

I cannot take admin action in this case, but I would seriously suggest a "plague on both your houses" approach here. I've looked through the diffs, and there is little to choose between the behavior of the various protagonists, with the exception of Kautilya3. There's plenty of impolite language, accusations of bad faith sans evidence, filing of pointy reports at various noticeboards, a tendency to stonewall to protect favored sources/content, and generally far too much evidence of battleground behavior. I'd recommend a topic ban from the Indo-Pakistan conflict for at least the four principals here. Vanamonde (talk) 04:42, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Let me expand on that just a bit. The so-called copyright discussion, which has now been moved here, is actually about a somewhat subtle issue. Nadir Ali has been copying quotes onto Wikipedia, which were subsequently removed by Kautilya3. These quotes are not copied without attribution (our most egregious form of copyvio) nor do they represent excessive use of quotations in-text; they are quotations used in a reference, in a topic in which faked references, and allegations thereof, are common. This does not mean that any such use of quotations is okay; but it does mean that the use is largely a matter of judgement, and a question of balancing what is absolutely necessary with minimal use. This is a matter that could be solved by folks who disagree but are committed to working together. Instead, what do we have? One set of folks flatly denying any copyvio; another insisting that its absolutely blatant, needs to be met with an immediate block, and that any failure to agree with this diagnosis is evidence of lack of competence. Thus my conclusion that the whole bunch here are displaying a battleground mentality, with the exception again of Kautilya, whose edit summary linked above is some of the only temperate language in this mess.
In short, most folks here are simply trying to grab every opportunity to bring sanctions down on their opponents. JosephusOfJerusalem has provided a number of stale diffs in his original post, but he's not the only one; as evidence of disruptive behavior, Raymond3023 offers four quite legitimate requests for protection, and as evidence of a frivolous AFD D4iNa4 offers a speedy close that was swiftly reversed. These items are symptomatic of this set of disputes in general, wherein discussions about genuine disputes contain pages of castigation and recrimination, little to no substance, and certainly no evidence of compromise or attempts to build consensus. Thus my recommendation above, which I continue to stand behind; t-bans for all the folks deeply involved in this dispute with the one exception already noted. Vanamonde (talk) 17:51, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
D4iNa4, that's not going to fly; the AfD closure may have been reverted later, but the fact that it was inappropriate was evident when it was made; anyone could have seen that, had they not been blinkered by their agreement with the closure. Vanamonde (talk) 18:29, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
SheriffIsInTown, I haven't evaluated your behavior yet, but Mar4d, Nadir Ali and the OP are certainly not innocent here; neither is MBlazeLightning, who I did not mention above. Kautilya3: I do not believe blocks are appropriate here. These are not short-term problems caused by folks losing their cool; the problems are long-running, and have to do with basic editing style. People need to be removed from the topic until their attitudes towards other editors have changed; so we need either indefinite blocks or topic-bans, and I support the latter, because that is the lesser sanction. Vanamonde (talk) 05:48, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
JOJ, anyone can comment here, and I have made it explicit that I am not acting in an administrative capacity. I suggest you confine your attentions to your original complaint. Vanamonde (talk) 06:24, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@GoldenRing and Bishonen: I would strongly recommend a t-ban for MBlazeLightning as well; aside from reports at SPI that are borderline frivolous, he has played his part [169], [170], [171], in the recent edit-wars, and has much the same attitude of treating Wikipedia as a battleground; for further evidence take a look at his talk page, where both Drmies and I told him off for making blanket reverts of suspected socks without sufficient thought or explanation. With respect to Lorstaking: his conduct is problematic, but his editing is less prolific and more widespread topic-wise; I think an Indo-Pakistan conflict t-ban is either too little or too much. Raymond3023, on the other hand, has engaged in plenty of the conflicts listed above (just look through his last fifty edits), and previously flirted with a broad IPA t-ban before NeilN gave him a reduced sanction. Finally; I know I recommended above that the t-ban be limited to the Indo-Pakistan conflict, but on further reflection, I believe the conflict between these editors is likely to spillover to other areas within the scope of ARBIPA; see, for instance, the history here, and the talk page here. If we're trying to prevent this set of folks from becoming a time-sink for the community, an ARBIPA t-ban is indicated. Vanamonde (talk) 15:28, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to bother refuting Sdmarathe's diffs, because NeilN was involved in that kerfuffle, and can attest to my conduct. But, GoldenRing and Ivanvector, since you asked; Lorstaking's problematic editing is less on his own behalf, and more a tendency to jump into action for or against other editors. Examples include suggesting Mar4d be indeffed, defending MapSGV, [172], [173], [174], [175], [176], and jumping in against Willard84. This is far from helpful, but I don't know that it's sanctionable conduct; I'll let you folks judge that. Vanamonde (talk) 16:41, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Two more points, for the record. First, Ivanvector: NadirAli's involvement in this week's kerfuffle may have been accidental, but his history with ARBIPA sanctions is longer than anyone else's; he has the dubious distinction of being sanctioned in the original case, and has flirted with sanctions several times since his t-ban was repealed; see [177]. As such, I'd say that he's on a tight leash, and should be cut very little slack, if you'll forgive the mixed metaphor. Second, Lorstaking may not have participated here, but he's well aware of ARBIPA DS, having participated in an AE discussion less than two months ago. Vanamonde (talk) 17:56, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by WBG

As I noted on Cullen328's t/p days back, this is a situation which has grossly spiralled out of control.Vanamonde has put it quite nicely and, echoing his every wording, I' d recommend imposing an indefinite T-ban on each and every party in this dispute and the one regarding D4ina4 (just below) sans Kautilya3.Give the noticeboards and your capacities at pointy mud-slinging a break..... ~ Winged Blades^Godric 10:07, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
GRing's proposal is good enough and in certain aspects, quite lenient.14:04, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Statement by Justlettersandnumbers

It was I who moved an extended and argumentatious discussion from Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2018 May 10 to Talk:History of Balochistan, as it was not advancing the process of establishing whether there's been a copyright violation or not. There seems to have a great deal too much combative behaviour by a number of editors here, including the OP. It's apparently just the sort of thing the discretionary sanctions are intended to prevent; Vanamonde's suggestion seems appropriate in the circumstances.

Capitals00, could you please tell me, here on this page, in clear and simple terms: does your copyvio report concern only material copied as quotations in the references? NB: it anyway has brought to light another apparent copyvio, which I'll deal with in due course. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:39, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kautilya3

I have been quiet because I had been busy and this discussion has been too chaotic for me to make sense of. Now that Vanamonde93 has helped to clarify it, here are my two cents. As for the COPYVIO issue at History of Balochistan, I said in my edit summary "please trim the quotes". NadirAli came back several hours later saying "Trimmed quotes". Till now everything seems normal. However, it wasn't immediately clear what NadirAli had done, because the byte count went up rather than down. Perhaps that is why MBlaze Lightning reverted it again. The next step would have been for MBlaze and NadirAli to discuss it somewhere. I don't know why Capitals00 and JosephusOfJerusalem got involved in this affair. But they did, and things went downhill soon after.

I would recommend a short block for both of them to get their act together, and give an opportunity for the involved editors to discuss things with each other. Why I am recommending it for both of them? Because Josephus's hands are not clean. One of the very first edits he did in his career was this whole-article blanking to help out his friend KA$HMIR, but KA$HMIR got caught with his pants down. We spared Josephus then. I don't see why we should keep on sparing him. He continues to play all kinds of games to help out his friends. Getting rid of this gangsterism is the first step to bringing some sanity to the India–Pakistan pages. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:10, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Re: NadirAli's concerns: I am impressed by NadirAli's concern for NPOV. With such commitment, would they care to explain why they replaced three whole sections of sourced content on Kashmir conflict, and brushed aside my objections saying "there is clear WP:CONSENSUS" and this is the "rightful WP:NPOV" version? Why did they claim in this very same diff that "HISTRS is a piece of advice and is not an enforceable policy" and use exactly the opposite criterion at Princely state? Running with the hare and hunting with the hounds? In any case, they need not be so presumptuous to assume that they are only ones that care about NPOV and that the Wikipedia will fall to pieces if they are not around. There are many others who care.
As for the references to Josephus's alleged ethnicity, "Jewish historian" need not necessarily mean ethnicity. It could also mean someone who studies Jewish history. The point of those comments was to highlight how Josephus presents a neutralist, professional, scholarly image of himself, while his conduct shows the exact opposite. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:49, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Josephus's comments: I see that the attempts to clear the deck continue. There is no "retrospective reasoning". On the day that Josephus came and blanked the page that I mostly created, claiming "I agree there are serious copyvios here. Text is very close to the original sources", I looked at his User page, that is what it said "Jewish historian, academic and foodie". Sure enough, all his edits till that point were dealing with Jewish history. That is the identity that Josephus himself has created for himself. Whether it was his ethnicity or not, I couldn't care less. But I was certainly perplexed why a Jewish historian, academic was blanking my page on 1947 Poonch rebellion. Josephus has not explained till this day why he did that. Perhaps he should do that first, before he finds more mud to throw at people?
What I posted on his talk page was a warning, along with an ARBIPA reminder, not an aspersion. In the edit that I warned about, he mislabeled a book chapter as a journal and he modified the wording (changing "shaping" to "influencing") which made the Indian think tank (IDSA) look like a lobbying organisation. In a later edit, he even effectively removed the facts that it was a "non-partisan, autonomous organisation", even though his own source said so. The next day, he added "independent" to a Pakistani think tank (IPS), even though the source already given on the page said it is wholly owned and operated by Jamaat-e-Islami, an Islamic fundamentalist party. Why indeed is a Jewish historian shooting down an Indian think tank and pumping up a Pakistani think tank? Again, Josephus never offered any explanation for these actions. (I might have overreacted here, I admit, because when I tried to locate the source on that day, the Springer server was down, and I spent quite a bit of time trying to find this non-existent journal article that Josephus cited.)
Then I am supposed to be "close" to a certain "sealioner". Ms Sarah Welch is a highly respected Wikipedian, who has made more contribution to Wikipedia than all of us on this page combined, and earned multiple barnstars and GA wins. Whether she is a sock or not, I don't know. She has always said that she isn't, and I respect her enough to give her her due. Josephus deduced that I was "close" to her because she wrote Kautilya3 has been too busy to login lately. Since I was part of the discussion, if I hadn't logged in for a few days, that would be the reasonable thing to say. Where does "closeness" come into the picture? And even if I was "close" to her, why is it any of Josephus's business?
It looks like Josephus and NadirAli haven't learnt anything from what has gone on till now. How long should this be allowed to continue? I am not even a party to this dispute. In my own input to the admins, I recommended a reduced sanction. And this junk is what I am paid back with? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 02:24, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ivanvector

I'm posting up here because while I'm not really capital-I Involved here, I have frequently interacted with this dispute via SPI, where reports just dealing with this small but noisy group of editors have accounted for numerous cases just this year, many (but admittedly not all) of them obviously retaliatory, and many just plainly dredging up old grudges. Unfamiliar observers should be able to see from the links provided in this thread that this behaviour is widespread: any time there is any sort of content dispute it escalates rapidly to the administrative noticeboards, where we entertain a back-and-forth name-calling while the dispute moves toward resolution. The only real reason that many of these editors are still allowed to edit is that nobody who isn't already involved really wants to take sides in this ongoing battleground affair.

As admins, our responsibility is to prevent disruption, not to punish, and so like many of the other neutral observers here it's my observation that the way forward from here is an admittedly unusual mass topic ban. I endorse GoldenRing's proposal, although I have thoughts about some users who are and are not named in their list and will have to come back to this in a bit because I have a real-life thing to do. For completeness and simplicity I recommend any topic ban issued here should cover the same topic scope as WP:ARBIPA. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:16, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In my view there are some editors here whose participation has become unacceptably toxic. In diffs presented here and found through links to discussions from here, I see repeated instances of what are probably good-faith content disputes being escalated by these editors, who often appear in disputes with no apparent justification other than what one other editor described as "bad blood". Another admin described this as "factionalized" editing, which it clearly is. In doing so these editors have turned this subject away from collaboration and have made it their own personal battleground, and at this point the only way we're going to come back from that is to remove them from the topic. There are a few editors that have been named here who really ought to be in line for community bans for the way they've deeply radicalized these disputes, and so I think that everyone on this list ought to be somewhat thankful that we're only talking about a fairly-limited-in-the-grand-scheme topic ban.

I endorse GoldenRing's list, and suggest including Raymond3023, Razer2115, and MBlaze Lightning based mostly on their participation here reflecting the same battleground mentality as the others that have been identified. I suggest excluding NadirAli who at least recently seems only to have been swept up in a dispute that was unnecessarily escalated by the others. I'm not so familiar with anyone I've not mentioned (such as Lorstaking) and so don't have any advice on sanctions at this time. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:07, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I further endorse including Sdmarathe in the proposed topic ban, from their sudden appearance here perfectly fitting the pattern I just described, and noting that they seem to be wringing out a dispute with Vanamonde93 in which they were not involved, and further noting that they seem to be latching on to this dispute to exercise a personal vendetta suggested by their comments in Vanamonde93's RfA. This is the sort of behaviour these sanctions should be designed to discourage. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:28, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: thanks for the diffs. Based on that I would suggest including Lorstaking in the topic ban, for repeatedly calling into question the competence of opponents in a manner which can only be described as an attack, for perpetuating disputes after an administrator tells them that their involvement is unhelpful, and for displaying the same attitude as many others here that every opponent must be someone's sockpuppet even after being repeatedly told otherwise. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:52, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Based on observations from Vanamonde93 and Sitush, and their starting a revert war that has had Princely state full-protected for three weeks, I've struck my comments regarding NadirAli and endorse including them in the topic ban. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:45, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sitush

This diffs are already plentiful above. At least some of the people involved in this mess should be indef topic banned at the widest scope of ARBIPA because the issues run deeper than just Indo-Pakistani conflicts. For example, Capitals00 seems to have problems with anything to do with Hindu/Muslim/India/Pakistan issues and has done for years, as indicated by the current content of their talk page. D4Ina4 has had similar issues, and whenever I see both JosephusOfJerusalem and Raymond3023 involved in something, I tend to walk away sharpish (JoJ, by the way, is very obviously not as recent a contributor to the project as their account creation date suggests). These people are so het-up and embroiled in personal as well as topic-related differences that I don't hold out much hope of a limited t-ban actually reducing the noise overall.

I'm less familiar with the others, aside from Kautilya3 and Mar4d, but am increasingly fed up of seeing their names among the same small group of antagonistic regulars at the various dispute venues. Kautilya3 is usually a voice of reason; Mar4d tends to veer between both extremes, depending on the subject matter - their efforts to calm down PAKHIGHWAY (talk · contribs) a few months ago, for example, were commendable, if doomed, but their efforts in this particular topic area (the Indo-Pak conflicts) are clearly rather wayward. - Sitush (talk) 13:51, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sdmarathe (talk · contribs)'s sudden arrival in this discussion is deeply suspicious. They've got a big problem with Vanamonde which has amounted to much of the little they have contributed to Wikipedia in recent years. They're also, from their history, quite obviously someone with a similar Hindutva agenda to some of the other people who are already being discussed for topic bans. I think their edits probably merit a closer inspection with a view to adding them to the burgeoning list of undesirables in the topic area. - Sitush (talk) 16:54, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The goings-on at Princely state in the few days are an example of how deeply engrained is the antagonism between these people. It is also an example of why a topic ban restricted to merely India-Pakistan conflicts is just going to lead to a lot more lawyering. FWIW, I've just written Talk:Princely_state#Proposal regarding that specific article. It isn't even one that historically has attracted a great deal of controversy - it has just got caught in the horrendous crossfire that these people seem to engender wherever they go. - Sitush (talk) 18:10, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Galobtter

Noting that JosephusofJerusalem tried withdrawing the the two AEs he filed by by removing them. Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:17, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sdmarathe

Evidently a topic ban on Vanamonde93 should be also in order. Knowing that Vanamonde93 have been unnecessarily casting WP:ASPERSIONS and clearly trying to remove every single challenger with whom they are in dispute.

@GoldenRing: If admins really consider conduct of more than a couple of editors to be problematic then Vanamonde93's conduct has been very problematic as well:

Edit warring related to Anti-Hindu sentiment.[178][179][180] Vanamonde93 made no efforts to discuss content: talk page history.
Threatening the involved editor on talk page and edit summaries.[181][182] Wikipedia is not a battle ground.
Brought editor to this board after already knowing that it is not actionable in this board.[183] Canvassed an admin to act on this request[184] and NeilN told Vanamonde93 that it is not actionable on AE.[185]

I have compared Vanamonde93's own battle ground mentality with a number of users reported here and Vanamonde93 clearly beats all of them except the OP as per these incidents I have linked in my diffs, no older than 6 days. Sdmarathe (talk) 16:11, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I can not help but laugh off at the suggestions indicating my "vendetta" against User:Vanamonde93 :) I have been reasonable enough to thank Vanamonde93 when they were right and criticize when I believed they were wrong. On the contrary there were several reverts that they have done that were just out of spite - who knows why. Anyone suggesting inappropriate behavior on my part should read edits 2 years back. And those that are suggesting I be included in the topic ban - need show a single edit warring incident on this topic by me. Anyone?? Sdmarathe (talk) 22:15, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jbhunley

At least in the case of D4iNa4, Capitals00 and Raymond3023 their pack behavior goes beyond IPA, either that or they are so aggressive as to extend their nationalism into Hookah. This ANI thread is one of the more vicious I have been involved in or even seen — particularly on the part of D4iNa4. I am not going to pull out diffs but the thread itself is worth a read. The last comment by Bbb23 ("@D4iNa4: You are out of control. Unless you stop interpolating your comments everywhere and moving other user's comments around, as well as repeated personal attacks on any editor who disagrees with you, you risk being blocked. I suggest you stay away from this thread completely.") is descriptive of the behavior there.

I would suggest at a minimum any topic ban be on IPA broadly construed (because Hoohah?!) but the sheer hostility, bad faith and disruption described here at AE tells me indefs for most are not far away. Jbh ^Talk 17:30, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by NadirAli

I logged in today with the intent of editing the article on Margot Kidder upon learning of her tragic passing. I wish to emphasize that I backed away from the articles after the same editors mentioned in this thread began edit warring. I have not broken any 3RRs and removed myself from these topics, seeing there was no near end in sight and that as usual, MBL and some other editors were not being reasonable. I even modified my edits on the Balochistan, but they did not accept them. This problem extends well over decade. It's not bad enough that some editors don't allow anyone to edit ARBIPA topics that contradicts their POV, but they also continue to lay siege on ARBIPA topics and then take any opposing editor to ANI where they lynch that user. This problem spans well over a decade and is responsible for most of the edit wars. Administrators and the community have continued to ignore this problem.

But as I stated, I pulled out of the articles seeing this could end up very badly for not just me, but Mar4d as well. They have already filed an SPI against JOJ likely in retaliation for the SPI filed against Capitals00, like the one MBL filed against me in November. I have no intention of editing the article anytime soon, so I think the proposal of topic bans are a bit excessive, considering that I have created and contributed to pages in this area without edit warring.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 21:34, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

RE:Kautilya3

To editor GoldenRing:, To editor Sandstein:, The problem is if Kautilaya3 is allowed to continue editing this topic area while others are blocked, it will give unfair advantage to him given that many of his edits are objectionable. I am not trying to assume bad faith in this user as he and I have had agreements before in this topic area, but he often makes edits that are blatant POV. This will only leave pages open to him changing them to his POV without those who disagree unable to express their objection; resulting in a loss of WP:NPOV.

Another issue is that Kautilya3 is under ethnicity claims restrictions [186]

"Any attempt to bring the purported or deduced or imagined ethnic or nationality identities of any users will lead to an immediate block. This includes an editor's own stated ethnic identity or nationality"

He is also under a casting aspersions restriction. [187]

These comments by him about doubting JoJ's Jewish identity are violation of that

Sock or no sock, for that is irrelevant, someone who is under ethnicity claims restriction and aspersions restriction shouldn't be bringing up another user's claimed ethnic identity from within 1000 miles. He was banned from making any attempt to bring up another user's purported ethnicity. This is also actionable. I'm also unsure if ivanvector is aware of this and could re-evaluate on the proposals.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 21:10, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If one goes through the archives they will find that Kautilya3 has already been cut a lot of slack by our sysops. He has convinced sysops before that his abuse of multiple accounts was "accidental" [188] and he has even convinced them that his edit warring was not a 1RR violation because he "misunderstood" policy.[189] I believe the administrators have already been too lenient in dealing with his wrongdoings. This is just stretching good faith over the limit. I request them to apply the same criterion on Kautilya3 which they apply to everyone else. There should be a single set of rules, not separate rules for one and another set for everyone else if Wikipedia is to maintain its stature.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 06:14, 15 May 2018 (UTC)--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 06:14, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To editor Seraphimblade: How can this [190][191] be called "trying to keep things reasonable"?--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 06:27, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Capitals00

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I agree with Vanamonde93 above that, if there is action to be taken here, it should be topic bans all around for battleground attitude, etc. I don't, however, currently have the time or inclination to go through pages and pages of invective to determine who exactly needs a time-out from the topic area. Sandstein 08:29, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree with Sandstein here. It looks like there are quite a few editors in this area who are behaving badly and need to take some time away from it, not just one disruptive editor causing issues. It will take some substantial effort to determine what sanctions needed and upon whom, but it is certainly clear that they are needed. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 18:35, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This has got horribly out of hand. So far I've read through this, this, this, this, this and this. Almost everyone involved has completely discarded the idea that Wikipedia is a collaborative project to write an encyclopaedia and has instead taken the battleground option. I'd compile diffs, but honestly it's just about every single comment from the start of this year on those pages. I agree with suggestions above that almost everyone involved needs a T-ban. I therefore propose to ban the following editors from all edits and pages related to conflict between India and Pakistan broadly construed: SheriffIsInTown, Capitals00, NadirAli, JosephusOfJerusalem, D4iNa4, MapSGV, Mar4d TripWire MBlaze Lightning and Raymond3023.
I intend to make the ban indefinite, with a minimum of six months, after which they can appeal here on a showing of constructive edits elsewhere (they can, of course, also appeal the ban on its merits in the usual ways). Some above have mentioned MBlaze Lightning; while the Sardeeph SPI filing is not impressive as the "evidence" amounts to them both using a bunch of common English phrases ("for a long time", "needs to be a", "I am afraid", "into the article"), if the SPI clerks don't see it as grounds for sanctions then I think we leave it alone at this point (unless anyone has further evidence to offer). Some have also mentioned Kautilya3, who I don't think merits any sanctions at this point.
I would welcome the thoughts of other uninvolved admins before implementing this. I did consider bans from everything related to India, Pakistan and Afghanistan (the scope of the IPA DS) but the dispute here does seem to be reasonably focused on India-Pakistan conflict. I consider this outcome fairly lenient, considering that there have also been calls for the lot of them to be simply indeffed. GoldenRing (talk) 11:32, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein and Seraphimblade: I would value your thoughts on the above. I'd also add that I think without this sort of action this is headed to WP:A/R/C. GoldenRing (talk) 12:31, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GoldenRing: I generally agree with the approach you propose; thanks for taking the time for reviewing the discussions. Because I haven't done this myself, I can't express an opinion about whether the users you name are the right ones. Sandstein 13:34, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@GoldenRing: But you should check whether all the editors on your list were properly alerted to discretionary sanctions prior to their conduct at issue here. Sandstein 16:15, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the reminder. As far as I can see:

SheriffIsInTown was alerted within the last twelve months
Capitals00 participated in an IPA request here at AE within the last 12 months
NadirAli participated in an IPA request here at AE within the last 12 months
JosephusOfJerusalem alerted within the last 12 months
D4iNa4 alerted within the last 12 months
MapSGV alerted in the last 12 months
TripWire participated in an IPA request here at AE within the last 12 months
Mar4d participated in an IPA request here at AE within the last 12 months
MBlaze Lightning alerted in the last 12 months
Raymond3023 alerted in the last 12 months

GoldenRing (talk) 16:34, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@JosephusOfJerusalem: Others have presented ample evidence here. Your input on Talk:History_of_Balochistan (diff, diff, diff) was not exactly helpful; Bishonen has previously warned you about assuming good faith when others warn you, with diffs; your talk page interaction is sometimes just bizarre (diff, diff - you citing ESDONTS is particularly ironic); but for me I think the icing on the cake is your participation here. Your participation here is a clear example of a battleground mentality. This is clearly a dispute which has got out of hand all around, and your attempts to use it to clear the decks of the side you disagree with has no place in a collegial environment. GoldenRing (talk) 14:29, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@SheriffIsInTown: You have treated Wikipedia as a battleground, not as a collaborative project, in many of the same discussions linked above as well as this, mess, of, a, discussion; and, again, your participation here has been an attempt to clear the decks of one side in a dispute. Classic battleground mentality. GoldenRing (talk) 15:05, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@SheriffIsInTown: That's why it says in the big red box at the top of the page, If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. I am not proposing a ban on you purely for your conduct here, you are clearly part of this dispute and your actions have exacerbated it, not helped resolve it. But your conduct here hasn't helped your case, either. GoldenRing (talk) 16:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: I have added a couple of names to the list. If someone wants to present evidence against Lorstaking then I could be convinced, but I haven't seen any particular misbehaviour in my own review and don't have time to dig through their contribs right now.
I do agree that there is a significant possibility that these editors will carry on the dispute on other IPA topics; but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence of it yet. Of course that might be because I haven't looked in enough places; if only we had the time... I think for the time being I'd like to try a narrower topic ban, on the understanding that any wrongdoing on other IPA topics will be met with lengthy IPA bans.GoldenRing (talk) 15:53, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with GoldenRing's proposal to topic ban SheriffIsInTown, Capitals00, NadirAli, JosephusOfJerusalem, D4iNa4, MapSGV, Mar4d and TripWire with the conditions GR describes, and also agree there's no reason to ban Kautilya. And I'd like to raise a question about Lorstaking and Raymond3023. Did you look at Lorstaking, GoldenRing? I can't say I have enough background in and of myself to propose a ban for them, but I certainly have an impression. The complex history of Raymond3023's sanctions in the area this year can be seen here. Pinging @NeilN: do you think a topic ban of Raymond should be included in our attempt to clean up the deplorable nationalist battleground which infests this area? Bishonen | talk 15:01, 14 May 2018 (UTC).[reply]
- @Bishonen: No, they didn't hit my radar while I was looking through this. GoldenRing (talk) 15:05, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Some of Raymond3023's edits gave me pause but I didn't come across enough to push them onto the list; I could be convinced, though. GoldenRing (talk) 15:06, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I likely won't be commenting here as going through the request properly requires more time and focus than what I have to spare right now. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:45, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - (edit conflict) I will say that Sdmarathe's statement advocating topic banning Vanamonde93 seems wholly unconvincing to me. Vanamonde93's AE request they bring up as evidence did result in a strong caution from me to the reported editor. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:54, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
For now all I want to say is that "a plague on both houses" might well be beneficial to the project. Moreover, Sdmarathe's long-term vendetta against Vanamonde is noted. Drmies (talk) 16:50, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@GoldenRing: I think the general idea is okay. I will not have time to review the specifics of your proposal until tonight. If you want to wait for a second opinion I'll be happy to do that when I can, otherwise I generally trust your judgment. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 16:53, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @GoldenRing: I have now had time to sort through that mess (and there's an hour I'll never get back...), as well as the evidence presented at this request and the conduct of editors at it. I will firmly agree that Kautilya3 should not be sanctioned; if anything, they seemed to be trying to keep things reasonable, and we can't blame them if that effort turned out to be futile. Between retaliatory SPIs and disruption of that process, disruption of the copyright investigation process, and general mudslinging and casting of aspersions, I agree that the other editors you mentioned need to be sanctioned based upon their behavior (and no, they were not just in the wrong place at the wrong time, they all contributed to the problem), and I would include a warning that if they move the disruption and bickering with one another elsewhere, the next step is very likely to be an indef. Enough is way more than enough here. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 02:10, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@GoldenRing: I endorse your addition of MBlaze Lightning and Raymond3023 to the list per Vanamonde. Like some others, I'm a little worried about the limitation of the topic bans to conflict between India and Pakistan, and worry that the disruption, and the mutual aggression of the editors, will spread to other IPA areas. Also, we may be inviting ~~wikilawyering~~ fine-spun arguments about the scope of the ban. But I agree it makes sense to start with a narrower topic ban. When you log those bans, it might be a good idea to also log a formal warning that any disruption on other IPA topics will be met with lengthy IPA bans. Sdmarathe's diffs concerning Vanamonde are ridiculous, btw. Vanamonde attempted to contain the unencyclopedic excesses of a tendentious new editor; that's not evidence of a "battleground attitude", but of care for our articles. Bishonen | talk 17:18, 14 May 2018 (UTC).[reply]
I have imposed bans on the ten editors I listed above from all edits and pages related to conflict between India and Pakistan, broadly construed. While they may appeal the bans in the usual way on the merits, I have also added that they may appeal here on a showing of six months of positive contributions to Wikipedia in other areas and I would encourage admins reviewing such a request to consider it seriously.
I am going to leave this open a little longer as I would still like to take a look at the edits of Lorstaking, and am also considering what action might be appropriate re Sdmarathe; in the meantime, other admins are of course also free to take action against either or both. GoldenRing (talk) 08:39, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have imposed a one-way IBAN on Sdmarathe, from interacting with Vanamonde93, indefinitely and subject to the usual exceptions. I am generally opposed to one-way IBANs, but if there is a case where they are warranted, I think this is probably it. GoldenRing (talk) 08:55, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @Bishonen: I have looked back through a couple of months of Lorstaking's contributions. I'm not seeing a case for action right now. They have defended an opposed several editors who I've just banned, but their involvement in those discussions strikes me as relatively minor and in particular they haven't taken the bludgeoning and arguing-in-circles approach of some others. They are hardly the only ones to call for blocks on some of these editors. If that's the basis for action (and I haven't see any other) then I don't think we're at the stage of sanctioning them. Other admins are, of course, free to act on their own initiative. I'd advise them to pick their friends with a little more care, but nothing more. GoldenRing (talk) 09:25, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

D4iNa4

This is being considered for action in the context of the request concerning Capitals00 above. Procedural closure. Sandstein 15:12, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning D4iNa4

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: JosephusOfJerusalem (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 07:33, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: D4iNa4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan#Standard_discretionary_sanctions :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

″your gross incompetence won't do any favor for you. I have been telling you about your disruption for years. ″Only a person with gross incompetence like you would...That's a case of gross incompetence...your incompetence...get over the facts″. WP:PERSONALATTACK and accusations of incompetence. WP:INCIVILITY
″in place of making false allegations why don't you answer the actual question?″ Same as above and below.
″Enough of this WP:DE and WP:IDHT now. Why you are resorting to false allegations of content forking?″ Accusations of bad faith against other editors.
″Please don't engage in deceptive WP:GAMING…So you rechecked my comment after you made a nonsensical response to it? That comment from "different editor" shows how incompetent Farawahar is. You must be having same WP:CIR issues as Farawahar, no wonder he is getting support from you….Same thing. You can twist your words in an attempt to mislead others but the fact still stands that you have a battleground mentality….You don't have any competence to understand simple English.″ Same problems as above. Display of rudeness, incompetency accusations and incivility to other editors.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

[192] A history of sockpuppetry.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see [193])

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This user has pretty much the same incivility issues as Capitals00 above. Which is why I have decided to report both together since the problems in both cases are identical. They contribute to boiling our editing environment with hatred and vitriol. And there is just no sign that this is not going to continue. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 07:33, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Capitals00 by JosephusOfJerusalem

This rude response by D4iNa4 is a direct blatant personal attack. It cannot be compared with this relatively lighter and more polite comment by SheriffIsInTown in response to D4iNa4's other ″CIR taunt″. SheriffIsInTown's talkpost at WingedBladesOfGodric's wall is not WP:CANVASSING, he is an administrator.
This diff is far from being ″100% correct″. This comment that you have shown from TripWire was a decent response (requesting a focus on content and clearage from WP:PA) to this WP:PERSONALATTACK by MBlaze Lightning.
The language in this diff is still bad, regardless of the venue being WP:ANI. Read WP:NOTTHEM. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 10:38, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[194]

Discussion concerning D4iNa4

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by D4iNa4

Statement by Capitals00

Just like the above one, this is a frivolous complaint filed only because JosephusOfJerusalem is failing to get consensus for his POV. Neither report discuss any problematic editing, but only misrepresents general criticism as "personal attack".

diff is just a response to personal attacks, canvassing and derailing carried out by other editor.[195][196][197]
diff is 100% correct. "False allegations" is rather a civil way to describe the comment that claims other editor in line with WP:BRD to be engaging in "personal attacks, edit-warring and WP:POV".[198]
diff is again correct. When your opponent is engaging in WP:IDHT and making false allegations of " WP:CONTENTFORK" and that "there's no consensus for the disputed content"[199] despite 100% clear consensus, it is WP:IDHT and WP:DE.
diff is unnecessary and non sanctionable because it was discussion of a conduct of a user in ANI.

Given this is a revenge complaint filed by JosephusOfJerusalem only to get rid of the far more experienced and competent editor who happens to be his opponent. I would recommend admins to read the evidence I have provided above and simply solve the problem by sanctioning JosephusOfJerusalem for his long term disruption. Capitals00 (talk) 09:15, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MBlaze Lightning

See Special:Diff/840836278. MBlaze Lightning ^talk 13:58, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I've filed an SPI report here. MBlaze Lightning ^talk 15:42, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by WBG

See my comments in the thread, just above.~ Winged Blades^Godric 10:10, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ivanvector

This is effectively a duplicate of the Capitals00 report above, and should be speedy closed (or whatever that looks like here) in deference to that thread. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:10, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning D4iNa4

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

See my comment regarding the complaint against Capitals00 above. Sandstein 08:30, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

E-960

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning E-960

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:51, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: E-960 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBEE, page level article restrictions - 1RR (+original author as in ARBPIA)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

0408 11 may + 0420 11 may revert1
1717 11 may + 1725 11 may + 1730 11 may revert2. 1rr on revert1
1814 11 may revert3 (+ original author clause) 1rr on revert1,2.
0702 12 may revert4. This one of an ip that does not count to 1rr, but does show pattern and is gaming of 3rr - 4th revert in 27 hours
1354 12 may + 1249 12 may revert5, again of ip. This one is a 3rr vio in relation to revert2,3,4.
1701 12 may. revert6. 1rr in relation to revert2,3. 3rr - 5 reverts in 24 hr window in relation to reverts2,3,4,5.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

228 8 May will voluntarily refrain from editing the article for 72 hours. If disruptive tagging is an issue, another request should be made, with evidence that will allow admins unfamiliar with the sources to understand the issue

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

notified. Also previosuly discussed here on 7 May 2018.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I chose to focus on the narrow aspect of 1rr/3rr given this is easy to demonstrate and previous discussion here. User returned to article 1.5 hours after the 72 hours were up and proceeded to revert multiple times.

RE E-960's comments below:

I did not add any tags or comments removing text (in relation to the 6 reverts reported) - so it is unclear to me I've been gaming the system here. I will note that E-960's has been adding dubiously sourced information (based on the Facebook posts of a Polish ambassador) - however that is a content issue (there is a RfC presently running on the article talk-page regarding the use of the ambassador's observations on research methodology).
It seems that E-960 in addressing the diff list was referring, in some comments, to the previous edit - not to their own.
1717 11 may + 1725 11 may + 1730 11 may - reported as one-consecutive edit (FR did make an edit and self-revert it in the middle - in 1726-7- however this was ignored for reporting purposes - lumping 1730 with the consecutive edits of 1717 and 1725).
Revision as of 18:14, 11 May 2018 - E-960 reverted changes by Volunteer Marek - consecutive diffs in 1757-1809 - restoring the changed image caption and quote that VM removed - [200]. E-960 added this information in 1717-1730 - so very shortly before VM's removal of the new information. I would not have filed AE over a single quote and image caption - but it is a clear revert.
Revision as of 13:54, 12 May 2018 - Icewhiz did not place the tag. The tag was placed by 198.84.253.202 at Revision as of 12:47, 12 May 2018 - E-960 should take care in attributing actions to users. I will note that I agree with 198.84.253.202 - the article does indeed overemphasize Polish views, while ignoring wider Holocaust and World War II history (for instance, it would seem that Jewish views (which have addressed this topic at length, which are long standing, are almost lacking all together in terms of opinions/assessment of the Polish role in the Holocaust - there is also an overemphasis in the use of Polish sources - which is a problem given that NOENG has us preferring English when available at the same quality and of BALASP as the sources selected do not reflect the wider world-wide scholarly consensus) - however, I did not place the tag.
Revision as of 12:49, 12 May 2018 - E-960 should retract his accusations of vandalism against the 198.84.253.202. This text is not agreed upon. While most editors agree, on the talk-page, that Gazeta Wyborcza is a WP:RS - many editors have failed to see the relevance of a statement which repeats the previous statement and says nothing new. If at all, WP:ONUS is on E-960 to include not on 198.84.253.202 to exclude.
E-960 reverted, in the 6 reverts, at least 4 different users - François Robere, Icewhiz, 198.84.253.202, and Volunteer Marek. Some of his edits may be justifiable in and of themselves. And perhaps I was nit-picky in counting reverts in one case - however the aggregate of 6 reverts in 37 hours on a 1rr article is not how a 1RR article should be edited.Icewhiz (talk) 13:19, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: notified

Discussion concerning E-960

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by E-960

This report filed by Icewhiz is nothing short of a dishonest MANIPULATION, and I would request that sanctions are placed on Icewhiz for filing a false report against another editor. If you notice (and go through the actual sequence of the edits [201]) you will see that these are reverts of DISRUPTIVE edits done by Icewhiz, François Robere and IP 198.84.253.202 including placing of more shame TAGS into the article and removing text using the  code.

Exampels:

Revision as of 17:17, 11 May 2018 [202] - reverted edit by François Robere who placed yet another shame TAG into the article
Revision as of 17:21, 11 May 2018 [203] - added a quotation earlier into the reference source citation and for clean up removed Polish word in parenthesis, how is that a violation of any kind
Revision as of 17:27, 11 May 2018 [204] - reverted my own edit, due to all the disruptive changes made by François Robere who himself reverted his own edits earlier, how is that a violation of any kind
Revision as of 18:14, 11 May 2018 [205] - restored the quotation that was added in the reference citation, since François Robere was making more changes to article and Volunteer Marek was reverting all the disruptive changes, and accidentally removed an unrelated edit I made
Revision as of 13:54, 12 May 2018, 12 May 2018 [206] - reverted another shame TAG placed by Icewhiz in the article
Revision as of 12:49, 12 May 2018 [207] - reverted a vandalism edit by IP 198.84.253.202 who place the  code to hid the text that was agree on in on the Talk Page [208], pls notice the Edit Summary caption made by another editor (→‎The Holocaust: Per talk), and this is where earlier IP 198.84.253.202 tried to remove the text outright from the article [209]... after being revered he decided to use the  code to blank the text.

This type of behavior by Icewhiz is nothing short of trying to game the 1RR rule, and create enough disruptions in order to level a false change against an editor who is simply reverting VANDALISM, because when you  or keep placing random shame TAGS you are causing major disruptions to the article. I think that users GizzyCatBella, Volunteer Marek, Nihil novi and MyMoloboaccount can all confirm what is happening because they all at some point were forced to revert all the TAGS and disruptive editing on the page. --E-960 (talk) 12:43, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

NeilN, to respond to your follow up questions. In reference to the edit which included this tag {{verify|reason="Collaborators" or "blackmailers"?}}, I went ahead and simply resolved the issue which the TAG highlighted, by adding the following text "and blackmailers (szmalcownik)" after confirming that the image related to both 'collaborators' and 'blackmailers'. So, this was not a blank revert, but a resolution of the question which the TAG asked. Though, I removed the TAG first [210] (which is the edit you are following up on), and in the following edit included the correcting text [211], because if you notice below, this was a really BIG TAG that was messing up the small IMAGE THUMBNAIL where it was placed inside of, yes actually inside the image frame (bit annoying when I first saw it, but went ahed to resolve the issue not just blank the TAG). And to my surprise actually received a public Thank You from François Robere for resolving this items. (I'll admit there was a bit of clumsy editing on this one, but there was never an intent to just revert, but to resolve the question which the TAG addressed).

Regarding the second item, [212], this was a first time reverted (not a revert after a revert), of text about 'anti-Jewish sentiment related to the Catholic Church and Communism', which though related to the article went off on a tangent outside of the scope of collaboration, thus I recommend that this should be discussed first. However, again I'd like to note that this text was only removed one time (not a revert of a revert). Also, there was a second statement which discussed 'Polish wartime casualties' which François Robere removed from the introduction paragraph, which again simply did not relate to collaboration. But, this time Volunteer Marek reverted (accidentally running over the two TAG items that I resolved successfully), so thus I did not again try to revert this particular text, but in the Edit Summary left a note that this text does not really belong in this article [213]. --E-960 (talk) 15:41, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by GizzyCatBella

I have no time to measure this but I would like to make an honest plea to the evaluating administrator. Please (please) review this especially thoroughly since Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has a history of filing dubious claims.[214]. Also please consider the frequency Icewhiz arrives here denouncing his opponents of violations [215] [216] [217] - 3 times in the last five days alone. Thank you. GizzyCatBella (talk) 17:41, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by François Robere

I don't think E-960 had any ill intent in any of these edits, but I very much dislike their characterization of others' edits as dishonest or intentionally damaging, and I similarly dislike GizzyCatBella's tendency of doing so. Icewhiz is well within his rights in filing this request, and I suggest any editor who thinks of initiating yet another uninvited smear campaign examine their own behavior instead. François Robere (talk) 09:30, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Volunteer Marek

User:NeilN, yes, that was a straight forward correction (and it was my fault - I was editing while travelling) not a revert.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:35, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning E-960

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

@NeilN: These are your page restrictions, could you evaluate this report? Sandstein 08:31, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I will look at this some time today. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:04, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've semied the article under DS for a month. E-960, I am concerned about two reverts. [218], [219] This seems like a violation of WP:1RR. Please comment. Volunteer Marek can you please kindly confirm or not if E-960 was correcting some accidental editing here. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 05:02, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thewolfchild

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Thewolfchild

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: K.e.coffman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:23, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Thewolfchild (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

The March 2018 AE discussion (AE:Thewolfchild) detailed a pattern of battleground behaviour, directed at me (largely) & other contributors. It closed with a warning to TWC to not personalise disputes; avoid 'clerking' / impeding consensus; canvassing, & more. However, such behaviour has continued:

24 April, Creating drama / aspersions: "This constant bickering..." & "that huge train-wreck of an RfC..." (TWC's inability to let go of the RfC was discussed at the prior AE). TWC edit warred to prevent collapsing off-topic material: [220] & [221]. Added for clarity: I did not collapse TWC's comments nor reverted him; that was done by another contributor: [222] & [223].
14 May 2018, Hounding / issuing threats: suggesting that all firearms articles that I edited "(33 and counting!)" should be listed at WP:GUNS to discuss "what, if any, further actions or sanctions are required" & "This should be examined, this should all be examined, and thoroughly." After pushback, TWC seems to have backtracked a bit: "the main goal here is to review the edits, not the editor" [224]. This still leaves open the door that, perhaps, a secondary goal is to "review" (i.e. lightly harass) the editor.
8 April 2018 & same, Clerking discussions / redacting comments. I reverted TWC once [225]; the other revert was by the OP. This resulted in a discussion on my TP (User talk:K.e.coffman/Archive/2018/April#April 2018), with belittling: "like some probational-acting-deputy-admin-in-training", etc.
7 May 2018 More clerking, after an admin specifically told TWC "Don't ask for closes" [226].
18:34, 5 May 2018, Personalisation of disputes: "your friend K.e. basically told me...". In response to the "friend" reference (a second time), I posted on TWC's TP: 19:11, 5 May 2018. (Prior reference to "friends": 15 April 2018). TWC then requested that I "please keep it off [his] talk page": 22:51, 5 May.

Previous sanctions

Given a warning (AE:Thewolfchild) on 25 March 2018 by NeilN (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
Block log

DS awareness

Alerted about relevant DS on 0:55, 22 February 2018.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I believe that these diffs display battleground behaviour and targeting of my contributions. They also show no learning curve in terms of Wiki norms; e.g., this (unrelated) ANI about TWC closed w/o sanctions, but provided this illuminating diff by TWC: 11 April. Since TWC doesn't want me on his TP and reacts strongly even to mild cricism (e.g.: I'm genuinely shocked, shocked!...), I'm bringing this report here.

@Pudeo: Re ...far from actual personal attacks, I did not use the words “personal attacks” in my statement; please read it more carefully before commenting. On your other point, I indeed participated in the H&K TP, where I provided a detailed rationale & review of sources: Sample material in question, which was all cited to the manufacturer's web site.

@PackMecEng: Re ...you left that comment on their talk page right after they asked you not to post there anymore, I'm afraid that you got the timeline wrong. I added times to the diffs for clarity: TWC's request to "keep off" his TP comes last. Separately, I see that you participated in the 1st AE, where you accused others of "bludgeoning, threats, and badgering" [227] & "WP:RIGHTGREATWRONG" [228], yet you don't see the same in TWC's behaviour.

General comment: Since my first interaction w/ TWC, which I can only describe as a series of emotionally unhinged outbursts ([229], [230] (bottom of page) & [231]), TWC seems to have had a preoccupation with my editing. Despite having stated several times that he's not a member of WP:GUNS, TWC's suddenly so concerned for firearms articles that he's willing to recruit WP:GUNS editors to "thoroughly" examine my contributions?

Specific to the H&K aticle, I had suggested the participants raise the issue at either WP:NPOVN or WP:NOT: Applicable policies. This was ignored by TWC in favour of apparently conspiratorial thinking ("To what end?") and the suggestion that "as many [WP:GUNS] editors as possible be made aware of this activity" [232]. The latter may also violate the spirit of the warning given to TWC against canvassing by "using project pages". In any case, project TPs are not designed for involved editors to discuss possible "sanctions" against an editor who they may disagree with; that looked to me like a threat.

Lastly, the redactions by TWC are problematic because he was specifically warned about 'clerking' discussions, with a separate warning on his TP: "just stop acting like a clerk". This comment does not warrant placing an RPA template. That’s why I was puzzled as to why TWC insisted on redacting it, to the point of edit warring and badgering me on my Talk page. This suggests ownership to me, same as was brought up in the first AE discussion. Or as NeilN puts it: "...what was seen as disruptive was you [TWC] having to get your two cents in everywhere" [233]. In summary, some admins were calling for a topic ban at the 1st AE, so a warning was a fair outcome. The conditions were not that hard to follow, but here we are. --K.e.coffman (talk) 15:49, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Springee: ...a provocation and uncivil. K.e.c. should not have restored the collapse..., this implies that I was uncivil and / or was provoking TWC. That's not the case as I did not collapse TWC's comments nor reverted him in this case; that was done by another contributor: [234] & [235]. I added this to the original statement for clarity.

General comment: Re my edits allegedly being about essentially demonizing firearms in general, we can't go about editing these articles as if firearms were people too; BLP policies do not apply to them. Regarding TWC's list, what it shows is that our firearms articles suffer from a significant amount of unsourced / self-sourced promotional material and trivia, or what TWC calls content of neutral, encyclopedic value. I liked this bit of self-cited "origins story", with distinct settler-colonialist undertones:

In 1919, Chief Lame Deer from a Cheyenne tribe approached Arthur Savage to purchase lever-action rifles for the Indian reservation. The two men struck a deal — the tribe would get discounted rifles and Savage would get the tribe's support and endorsement. It was at this time in the company's history, that Arthur Savage added the Indian head logo — a direct gift from the Chief — to the company name.^[1]

References

^ "SavageArms.com". About Savage.

In Savage Arms. I'm always happy to discuss my edits, but since TWC's idea of me is that I'm set on "demonising" firearms, I'm not sure he's the right person for the task. In short, TWC has not been a positive presence in these articles. His participation has mostly amounted to disruption of talk pages & bullying of other participants. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:14, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification

14 May

Discussion concerning Thewolfchild

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Thewolfchild

Well, let's start by calling this what it really is... a pre-emptive strike. As K.e noted in point #2, on the H&K416 talk page, I had suggested that some of the edits he has made to firearm-related articles be reviewed at WT:GUNS. He clearly is not happy about the prospect of that occurring. But the facts are this: in the 6 months prior to Feb 14, K.e. didn't edit a single firearm-related article. Then the Stoneman shooting occurred, he was heavily involved in the editing of that article from the beginning, along with the mass-shootings in the U.S. article, and since then (the past 3 months, Feb 14 - May 14), he has gone on a spree, removing and altering content to numerous (approx 50, perhaps more) firearm-related articles on a massive scale (see here, this is just major edits and does not include numerous minor edits). His editing has the single-minded objective of removing content of neutral, encyclopedic value, while at the same time pushing for the addition of "criminal use", "use in mass-shootings", and other controversial material, essentially demonizing firearms in general. Just because he adds (the almost standard now) edit summary; "remove per wp:catalog, will save on talk page" doesn't really mean anything. Multiple editors have objected to these edits (see the Glock talk page) but K.e. either just stands his ground or doesn't engage. I don't feel a single editor should be changing the entire encyclopaedic presentation of firearms on WP, while at the same time, completely dismissing the Firearms Project, it's scope and it's members. Hence the reason that I suggested the review, other editors agreed... and now we have this "AE complaint".

As for the rest of K.e.'s report, (other than the minutiae he went digging for from weeks ago), the gist of it is some of my talk page posts are sarcastic. Well, let's gauge that against the condescending arrogance of his comments, the ones that aren't appallingly hypocritical or just outright bullshit. Look no further than his comments here; "badgering", "edit-warring", "threats", "hounding", "harrassment", "emotionally unhinged", "conspiratorial thinking", "canvassing", "ownership", "clerking" (ad nauseum), etc., etc., etc. At what point does an admin see that this clearly crosses the line from "report" to "blatant, personal attacks"...? Not to mention that this is basically abuse of a project function. Like K.e's, my contribs speak for themselves. I've made enough edits to firearm-related articles (though few and usually minor) over the years to show that I don't have a "sudden interest" in this subject. However, I haven't made any significant content edits to firearm-related articles since the Stoneman shooting (save for reverts, even to changes I agree with but were done improperly), instead my edits have been mostly confined to talk pages. Since that event, there has been this persistent, topic-wide debate between two entrenched factions of editors and IP users (call them what you will, "pro-gun", "anti-gun", whatever...), constantly debating and changing content, most of which leads to article disruption (how many pages have been protected now?) and/or page-fill/time-sinks on talk pages. Most of my posts have called out against this; look no further than K.e.'s point #1 for an example of this. Yes, I have a recent AE warning, and while I clearly stated that I disagreed with both the way that report was handled and some of Neil's warning afterward, I don't feel that I've violated that warning. Tagging one comment as RPA (which was not an issue until K.e. made it one days later), posting one simple close request or un-collapsing my own comment, hardly qualifies as "clerking", nor do I see it as a violation of the warning I rec'd (2 months ago now) or the AE sanctions in general. In other words, I think this is a big waste of time. How many reports has K.e. filed here now anyway? He can't just come running here every time he doesn't like what someone posts on a sanctioned talk page. Perhaps a boomerang is in order and if I really cared about all this, mayne I push for that, but really... enough of this nonsense already. - ^theWOLFchild 23:53, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@ Bishonen - I already memtioned the allegations of "hounding" and "harrassing" above as I don't see how that's been demonstrated. I've largely avoided K.e. since the last AE report, except, as seen in the very diffs he's provided, where he has "hounded and harassed" me and I asked him on his talk page to both explain and stop this behaviour. I'm aware of what Neil's warning stated, but the simple fact is, I had no idea just how extreme it was intended to be, nor exactly what all activities are considered "clerking" (eg: the "don't ask for closes" bit; At all? Ever?) Since that comment, I've asked for for exactly one close. A simple, straight forward and uncontroversial close that no one took issue with - until K.e. brought it up here. I redacted exactly one comment, that again was discussed, resolved and uncontroversial - until days later when K.e. reverted, collapsed and basically shit-disturbed a minor issue that had nothing do do with him. Nothing. And I un-collapsed my own comment. I see where Neil has said below; Also, if an editor feels there is a pattern of inappropriate collapses, bring that issue (with solid evidence) to AE., but first, why would anyone need to do that, just to un-collapse their own comment? Isn't that just straight-forward disruptive behaviour that any admin can address at any time? And conversely, where was it shown here, (with solid evidence) that I have such a history of disruptively un-collapsing my own comments, that I should've assumed that the warning extended to me 'never being allowed to un-collapse my own comment again'? The point is, I take it that these warnings are to prevent disruption to the project, especially to articles which fall under AE sanctions, and I don't see how these three three minor actions noted above can in any way be construed as being disruptive, nor do I see how they clearly violate the warning issued, as it is written.

Lastly, in regards to comments about my post at the HK416 talk page; I have seen on other project talk pages where editors have posted concerns about changes being made to articles that fall under the scope of that project, how is this any different? (And this isn't just me, other editors agree with that post). I had noted that multiple editors were expressing concern over the content removals to that article (concerns that were not being addressed). Then I noticed the same issue at the Glock talk page. At that time, I had no idea as to the extent of the issue (I only have 3 or 4 firearm articles on my watchlist) and when I started to look further, I also 'blinked in disbelief' when I saw just how many articles were affected and how much content was being arbitrarily removed, all quietly under the radar, and all by a single editor! An editor whom others have expressed neutrality concerns about in the past in regards to this topic. There are ≈ 50 articles affected (so far), why try address this on 50 article talk pages when we have a central project talk page to review this on, all at once? Now, something that is repeatedly and conveniently being overlooked is the immediate (and last) comment I posted after the "proposal" comment, where I wrote: the main goal here is to review the edits, not the editor. Further, as you noted, I suggested that as many editors as possible review these content removals, not just people that don't like K.e. or just me on my own. The more editors involved, the more neutral and transparent the process. Beyond that, the simple fact is I had no intention of taking part, because I wanted to avoid accusations of bias. But that said, the simple fact is if these edits were found to be in violation of the AE sanctions, any other editor could post a report about that here. I've seen where one editor has reminded another that an article has fallen under sanctions before, so just what is the issue here? How is this considered to be "personalizing"? How can this be construed as a "threat"? K.e. made the edits, I can't help that, and I didn't start the (multiple) discussions complaining about those edits. Lastly, as you well know, editors can't impose sanctions, bans, blocks etc., it's supposed to be uninvolved admins that do that. Editors can only file reports, and I haven't even done that. I was still listing out all the content removals when this report popped up, clearly to prevent those mass content removals that are causing such discontent from being reviewed. This is distraction, and it seems to be working. - ^theWOLFchild 00:12, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Pudeo

Petty complaints about word choices that are far from actual personal attacks. K.e.coffman, you should go back to contribute to the discussion at Talk:Heckler & Koch_HK416#Recent_edit because five people disagreed with your removal of the "intricate detail". I really don't think just citing WP:INDISCRIMINATE gives you the mandate for this deletionist streak on gun articles because the policy's just against "unexplained statistics". People agreed WP:PROMO material should be removed, but self-published sources are allowed for non-controversial claims (WP:SPS). And you also removed important information such as the weight of the weapon from the infobox. If you really think that's "intricate detail" you should start a RfC to remove it from Template:Infobox weapon, not do it article by article.

Also anyone is allowed to remove personal attacks per WP:RPA, but yeah, it tends to lead to a controversy if you do that because PAs can be ambiguous. --Pudeo (talk) 19:26, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Toddst1

I'm not at all a fan of wolfie, in fact I think in general he's a great example of how an editor should not behave. ~~However, in reviewing this RFAR/E that I stumbled upon, I can't find anything that would be actionable as a violation of his sanction.~~ Toddst1 (talk) 00:22, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think TWC's response here speaks for itself and negates what I wrote above. Toddst1 (talk) 16:56, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dlthewave

I would encourage folks to consider the context of point #1. Sure, we often see poor word choices during spirited discussions, but this is something different. TWC chose to start a new section in the midst of an ongoing discussion to complain about the fact that the discussion was taking place as well as the outcome of the RfC and the amount of "disruption" in this subject area. I tried to collapse the unproductive side conversation which ensued but TWC insisted on keeping it open. TWC was also among a group of editors who opposed efforts to rewrite the WP:GUNS style guide to comply with the outcome of an RfC. Their contributions to this discussion amount to nothing more than whining about the RfC and more allusions to disruption, with no real effort to move forward. I'll leave it to TWC to explain which instances of "disruption" they are referring to. This incivility has a chilling effect on the consensus building process and may well be discouraging editors from participating in gun politics-related discussions, an area which is in desperate need of additional neutral voices. –dlthewave ☎ 02:44, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

TWC's problematic behavior is not limited to gun politics. Over the past several months they've shown ownership at Federal Bureau of Investigation as well: In a talk page discussion (permalink to section) TWC advised a new user that if you're planning on making major/mass changes to an article, especially one as significant as this one, I would suggest that you first work them out in your sandbox, that way you're not filling up the page history as well as all the watchpages of those editors who have this page on their watchlist. Also, once you've written out all the changes you wish to make, you can propose them on the talk page. They repeated the demand on the user's talk page, leaving out the fact that editors are also welcome to edit the article directly without first proposing changes. This was all in response to a fairly small series of edits. More recently, TWC reverted an edit with the reason "perhaps propose this on talk as a more abbreviated version could be added to "controversy" section", again implying that changes need to be proposed first. In the ensuing discussion, TWC adds As it is, It's somewhat lengthy, the writing needs improvement and it should probably go to the "controversy" section (if it's to be re-added). I'm not necessarily against re-adding, but I haven't read through all the attached sources yet. I will do that shortly, and perhaps add some suggestions. But this is a high-profile, high traffic page, so I wouldn't be surprised if others have some comments and suggestions to add as well. Give it a day, there's no harm in that. Talk soon. This is essentially a demand that content be kept out of the article until it has been reviewed and approved by TWC and other unnamed editors. Of note is the fact that this seems to have convinced the other editor to drop the proposed edit and leave the discussion, even though no policy-based rationale for outright removal was provided. (I've since reopened this discussion, I didn't include recent developments here but folks are welcome to take a look at the ongoing conversation.) –dlthewave ☎ 17:28, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by PackMecEng

This is getting a little silly.

1 - I was part of that RFC and it basically went the way I voted, but it certainly was a heated train wreck. I still feel back for Fish and karate on that mess of a RFC coming with the right close, but one no one would appreciate.

2 - Seeing as they have not seemed to follow K.e.coffman to any other articles hounding is a bit of a stretch. But the unilateral large scrubbing of over 33 articles did create issues and disruptions on several of those articles that everyone is still trying to workout.

3 - Has been covered above by Pudeo, but not sure why you took it upon yourself to insert yourself in that situation two days after it was done. Second revert should of just been left alone and done by someone else in my opinion. Finally everything in this part is over a month old at this point.

4 - It appears they were not part of the discussion there and reading it over two people in the discussion asked it to be closed. Posting a neutral request on the proper board does not seem like a violation of NeilN's request from the looks of it.

5 - Seems minor, though your response was not exactly helpful. ~~Especially when you left that comment on their talk page right after they asked you not to post there anymore.~~

The "shocked!" did not come off as serious in the context of the discussion. At this point seems like you two could use a break from one another. PackMecEng (talk) 03:35, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@K.e.coffman You are right on the time stamp, I was mistaken sorry about that. In regards to my previous comments at AE you posted, kind of an ad hominem attack there but different situation in response to a more disruptive editor posting about me specifically. Not relevant or equal. PackMecEng (talk) 23:57, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Geogene: you seem to have it a little backwards here. Several people that work on that project have already stated above that the disruption is K.e.coffman gutting parts of several gun related articles in a aparently POV manner and has issues collaborating with people of different views leading to WP:PUSH type of situations. As for intimidating the invader, which is an odd thing to say since it is K.e. that has repeatedly brought people here they disagree with. PackMecEng (talk) 13:22, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Bishonen: Habbit would be the correct term here, in reference to bring in people they disagree with. A search through the archives shows that pretty well. Even being dragger here two previous times with no sanctions shows the hounding KEC is doing here with a chilling effect on other contributors. As to beyond the pale and disbelief blinking, those are good ones by the way, from what I can tell it was never posted at GUNS unless I am not seeing it. Though I will admit GUNS would of been a better place to fix all the issues caused by KEC than one of the disrupted articles talk pages. PackMecEng (talk) 16:32, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Springee

I've been reluctant to post here. Like Dlthewave and PackMecEng I've been active on some of the articles in question and typically I'm on the same side of the debate as TWC and PackMecEng (opposite K.e.coffman and Dlthewave). TWC is certainly not dry in their presentation. If K.e.coffman has any flaws they aren't terse comments directed at others. K.e.coffman is very calm even in disagreement but can also be politely pushy. Both editors are trying to make a better encyclopedia. That said, I don't see merit to this ARE.

First point was disparaging an RfC. OK, well that RfC was a train wreck. See PackMecEng's comments above.

The scrubbing of gun articles was something I've also noticed as well. I felt K.e.c was often too aggressive but in general I haven't wanted to get involved. I think they were doing it in good faith but too dogmatically and without thinking about what readers might find of value. Given the range of articles impacted, WP:Firearms (WP:guns) is the most obvious place to start a discussion regarding what sort of information is going to be of interest to readers etc. I reviewed the H&K HK416 cuts, Talk:Heckler & Koch_HK416#Recent_edit, and found that many were good (and credit to K.e.c for always leaving talk page comments noting the changes) but others were questionable. I argued that perhaps 1/4 of the material either shouldn't have been removed or could have been easily fixed (remove promotional language, keep the factual statements). If that was true across the other articles then yes, the content should be reviewed. In a reply above K.e.c noted that TWC isn't a WP:Firearms project member. Why would that matter? I'm not either but that didn't stop K.e.c from reproachfully suggesting my edits/comments in the area were unwelcome advocacy (twice if I recall).

The collapsing of "off topic discussions", like the removal of personal attacks, is a dangerous game. I don't blame TWC for getting annoyed with some of that behavior. When editors who are participants on the talk page and on opposing sides of a contentious issue collapse one another's posts it certainly will come across as provocative. Dlthewave collapsed TWC's comments (from the original complaint [[236]]) and TWC likely, and not unreasonably, didn't appreciate it [[237]]. It would be different if an uninvolved admin had collapsed the comments.

The worst thing I see in this whole list was the redacting of what TWC felt was a personal attack. I think that was a borderline case and it would have been better to let it go or ask an uninvolved editor to help. This seems like a lot to do about not much. Springee (talk) 20:14, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree with PackMecEng's comment here [[238]] which disagrees with Geogene's assessment. NeilN, I would request that involved editors should seek consensus before collapsing comments. K.e.c's complaint included the claim that reversing this collapse of TWC's comments was a violation of their edit restrictions. [[239]] I would see such a collapse of my comments as a provocation and uncivil. K.e.c. should not have restored the collapse after it was removed. Perhaps a clear option for dealing with such provocations would be helpful if TWC isn't allowed to reverse them directly. Springee (talk) 13:42, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

dlthewave, while I can see your recent complaint about the FBI page do keep in mind that you went to that article and reverted TWC more or less out of the blue and without a really strong talk page justification. Not that you aren't allowed to make such a change and with your input the consensus just became 3:1 for the new material. But consider what you did. You inserted yourself into a discussion that wasn't overly heated or confrontational and made changes that are likely to increase tensions. BTW, I'm not saying that was your intent but we (and I'm sure this points at me too) should think about how others might view our edits, not just what our intent might be. I can see why, given your other editor interactions with TWC, they might be rather defensive about that. Springee (talk) 18:21, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Waleswatcher

I've had some recent interactions with TWC that were unpleasant and verging on uncivil, for instance this. Waleswatcher (talk) 20:27, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Geogene

TWC's response here is bad enough by itself to suggest admin intervention. Not only do they not see any issue with their previous suggestion of setting up some kind of Project Firearms taskforce to spy on K.e.coffman's (K) edits in an organized manner, TWC took K's concern about that bizarre and aberrant suggestion as an admission of being guilty of...something (a pre-emptive strike....He clearly is not happy about the prospect of that occurring). Then TWC reveals an OWN mentality when they begin trying to insinuate doubt into whether K should be editing firearms articles at all due to a short tenure (But the facts are this: in the 6 months prior to Feb 14, K.e. didn't edit a single firearm-related article) and because K may not be editing with the motivations of a firearms enthusiast (Then the Stoneman shooting occurred, he was heavily involved in the editing of that article from the beginning, along with the mass-shootings in the U.S. article). TWC then makes a vexatious complaint about K being too prolific (since then (the past 3 months, Feb 14 - May 14), he has gone on a spree, removing and altering content to numerous (approx 50, perhaps more) firearm-related articles on a massive scale). And finally, he complains about K, in effect, not asking Project Firearms for permission to edit firearms articles: ( I don't feel a single editor should be changing the entire encyclopaedic presentation of firearms on WP, while at the same time, completely dismissing the Firearms Project, it's scope and it's members).

K.e.coffman is now editing firearms articles, TWC sees this as an incursion on his longstanding territory, and is trying to intimidate the invader. This is unacceptable behavior from TWC; Admins should remove him from the conflict area. Geogene (talk) 04:21, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Drmies

Preliminaries first: I've had some run-ins with The Wolfchild but I think we've been getting along better--at any rate my decreasing powers of memory make it hard for me to carry grudges. Anyway, I think I kind of like em; they remind me of good old Dennis, with whom I still have to have a beer. On the other hand, I've sided with Coffman a few times on content things, and I am aware of their habit of seeking arbitration resolutions, which kind of sucks cause that makes things complicated. Reading over the diffs and then reading over the comments, it is tempting to say that INDEED there are not the hugest, disruptivest matters--but then one overlooks the previous history, and that's the problem here. Wolfchild, I read your list of quotations, the words that you argue make this turn from report into personal attacks: the problem here is, sorry, that Coffman has a good point. These are things that you do. And I'll tell you what, it was a very minor thing that you just did that reminded me that there was a thread here--you just archived a bunch of stuff on that AR-15 style talk page, which is fine! absolutely fine--but it brought me back here, and yes, there is something to this clerking bit, the accusation that you are doing more than just housekeeping. I'll leave it to the admins (if any of em want to jump into the gun thing) to weigh the diffs presented by Coffman, but I do think they should look carefully at them, since I do think that on occasion you can be a bit...aggressive, maybe, in your out-of-article behavior. I'm trying to phrase this delicately; I'm sure I'm not succeeding. But I'm really with Geogene, above, with whom I just edit-conflicted. Your response here kind of proves the point, and there are other topic areas where there is less of an opportunity for things to get out of hand. Drmies (talk) 04:28, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Bishonen, you're right--I guess it's my confirmation bias: I've looked at those two earlier requests (because I have had run-ins with the same editors, I think), and I look at very few others, so I extrapolated unjustifiably. My apologies to K.e.coffman. Drmies (talk) 16:15, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Lklundin

I agree with the criticisms formulated by user K.e.coffman. User Thewolfchild seems to have no understanding of what a collaborative effort is. The contributions of an editor is not measured simply in terms of their actual edits, but just as much in terms of how they affect other contributors that they interact with. With respect to the latter, user Thewolfchild uses basically every opportunity to demonstrate that they have no regard for how their actions may negatively impact other editors. Based on that, I support the request. Lklundin (talk) 13:37, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since some contributions here may be out of general interest in the matter, I wanted to detail my specific interactions with Thewolfchild.

In connection with this minor edit [240] I had apparently made an formatting error and had unfortunately not even understood that I had made an error. Since Thewolfchild's subsequent revert had an edit summary that was not very helpful I tried to understand what the problem was with this message to his talk page: [241]. This caused Thewolfchild to post this [242] on the talk page of the article itself, describing my contributions with words such as 'monkeying about' and 'ridiculous' using an overall condescending language, that as an example of abusive language is worth a read.

I had by then seen and fixed my error and I took note of the importance of not making a mistake while contributing to Wikipedia. When I later went back and made more substantial contributions to the article, it did occur to me that the Thewolfchild's behaviour is something that could cause other editors to question their motivation for continuing their effort on Wikipedia. So when my Watchlist indicated that Thewolfchild's editing behaviour was a topic here, I felt I should contribute my experience. Thank you. Lklundin (talk) 10:07, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ｔｏｍ

Hello, I hope I can write understandable, especially because I a absolutely not used to write in this areas of en:WP. For me it is quite clear, that here a case is just between two users. One of them has done his job in an area for a good while .. a second wants to enter and to be a new "primate". I would suggest to evaluate the working force which has been spend for this project. It is more or less ridiculous to push away authors which have done and do their job for the purpose of this project. HTH --Ｔｏｍ (talk) 17:38, 17 May 2018 (UTC) I'll try to explain more ... sorry for googletranslation: "If someone is new somewhere, you first see who has the most experience. This is a process as it is practiced in many areas of this company. New colleagues are always kindly welcomed. How it goes then lies in the positive contributions. For Karl-EE and D-David that was completely indifferent. They were not interested in content, nor to help [243] each other, but in structural changes, as D-David clearly[244] demonstrated. In the Ottoman Empire, the fratricide on the inauguration of a new sultan from the 15th to the 17th century was common. See Fratricide#Ottoman_Empire. We do not want something like that in this company. The complainant Karl-EE should be ashamed of what. Both (Karl-EE and D-David) did not remain without guilt. The constant pursuit of the work of Wolf and others had no other purpose than to keep them from the work and to fulfill the own mission of Karl-EE and D-David. This is like playing chess - whoever pulls first has the advantage. But that is not in the sense of this company. Complainant Karl-EE should be reminded. This is a colloborative project. I can say that I had no problems with Wolf. I can not understand why Wolf would have any restrictions." I hope that is not to weired. I just try to explain the situation. --Ｔｏｍ (talk) 06:39, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Thewolfchild

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I'll await input from User:Thewolfchild. TWC, could you please comment here, or else indicate whether or not you intend to? Bishonen | talk 18:10, 15 May 2018 (UTC).[reply]
It seems Thewolfchild can't help themselves. I'd block for a week. This shows poor judgment in determining what is a redactable personal attack and they were also told not to ask for closes. Since maintain or "clerk" any discussions still seems unclear to them despite my followups, I'd add "they must not touch other editors' comments for any reason on any talk page except their own". --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:21, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Springee: Other editors can handle that with an appropriate edit summary at which point the discussion should not be re-collapsed without seeking the advice of an uninvolved admin. Also, if an editor feels there is a pattern of inappropriate collapses, bring that issue (with solid evidence) to AE. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:04, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose TWC's question above, "How many reports has K.e. filed here now anyway?" was rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway: three reports AFAIK. This one in December 2017, which concerned American politics, nothing to do with gun control, and led to a warning, this report concerning you, TWC in March 2018, which also led to a warning; and now this ongoing report, which claims you have violated that warning. The reason I'm answering a rhetorical question is that I don't want it to become a meme, for lack of contradiction, that KEC comes "running here every time he doesn't like what someone posts on a sanctioned talk page", and because it worries me a little to see Drmies apparently buying into it ("I am aware of their habit of seeking arbitration resolutions, which kind of sucks" — their habit, really?).

Anyway, I recommend admins to read the original report from March 2018, which contained some very strong admin statements, and ended in a strong warning, phrased and logged by NeilN. Note, as soon as the next day, NeilN warned TWC again for being too bold with talk page actions and "clerking", despite just having been warned against it.[245] What concerns me most, though, is the personalising of disputes. This recent post, on the talkpage of some model of carbine rifle, from an editor who was fairly recently warned "not to personalize disputes or to use inflammatory language ("comment on the content, not the contributor")", is so far beyond the pale it can't even see the pale. It's an article talkpage, but TWC nevertheless posts a proposal to list all articles KEC has removed content from at WT:GUNS (sic, the firearms wikiproject talkpage), to have as many editors as possible review "this activity" en masse, and then determine "what, if any, further actions or sanctions are required". All this at WT:GUNS! Of course that sort of thing is by no means what project pages, or article talkpages, are for. I blinked in some disbelief when I saw it. I propose a topic ban from gun and gun-control related pages (broadly construed) and discussions for TWC, to be appealed in the usual ways, but also specifically with a recommended appeal here in six months, which will be viewed favorably iff TWC is then able to show they've been editing in other areas without hounding or harassing other users. Bishonen | talk 15:25, 16 May 2018 (UTC).[reply]

The March 2018 AE report on Thewolfchild was closed with a series of warnings to Thewolfchild about his behavior. He seems to have set about systematically disregarding those warnings:

"not to personalize disputes or to use inflammatory language": K.e.coffman's evidence, and Bishonen's comment above, show Thewolfchild doing exactly that.
"not to impede the formation of consensus by being too bold with talk page actions": Again, K.e.coffman's evidence shows Thewolfchild continuing to aggressively over-police talkpages (e.g. [246]).
"to acknowledge consensus can change and having external events bring increased scrutiny and change to potential walled gardens of articles can be beneficial and should not be ridiculed": K.e. coffman presents evidence that Thewolfchild continued to resist and ridicule the impact of outside scrutiny (and the result of an RfC) on the walled garden of firearms articles ([247]).

The previous AE thread also closed with a warning that "canvassing amongst project members or by using project pages will be heavily frowned upon". Yet here's Thewolfchild, suggesting that the Firearms WikiProject should conduct a targeted "review" of all of K.e.coffman's contributions in the topic area. As others have pointed out, this suggestion shows a profound misunderstanding of the role of WikiProjects and of our policies on article ownership and "hounding" other editors. (I'll give WikiProject members the benefit of the doubt and assume that they similarly recognized the inappropriateness of this suggestion and pushed back against it). Thewolfchild's comments here are similarly suffused with an inappropriate "ownership" mentality.
In any case, at the previous AE request, I argued that Thewolfchild should be indefinitely topic-banned from firearms-related content. At the time, I was in the minority, and I accepted warnings as a suitable alternative. Everything I've seen in the interim has confirmed my initial impression: this is an editor who cannot comport himself productively in this topic area, and who is a net-negative in the effort to build encyclopedic coverage of firearms. His point-by-point flouting of the previous set of warnings is conclusive, and I would recommend an indefinite topic-ban from firearms-related articles, pages, and material, with an option to appeal once six months have elapsed. MastCell ^Talk 18:01, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think that NeilN as issuer of the previous warning should decide what to do here. A block would be understandable. Sandstein 18:24, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My recommendation was implemented and we've ended up here. Time for another admin to take the lead, I think. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 18:29, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with NeilN. There's no reason to make the issue "his" because he implemented the warning — on the contrary, if anything. I know this has been open for a while, but I suggest we wait for at least one or two more uninvolved admins to opine. Bishonen | talk 20:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC).[reply]

Icewhiz

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Icewhiz

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Poeticbent (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBEE, page level article restrictions - 1RR (ARBPIA)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

15:29, 14 May 2018 User Icewhiz in less than one hour (!) removed all mentions of notable historian Anna Poray from over 60 articles. This massive POVPUSH was closely connected with Icewhiz's bad-faith AfD nomination. Citation restored by me, was reverted by Icewhiz in less than two minutes.
15:37, 14 May 2018 Exactly as above. Citation restored by me, was reverted by Icewhiz in less than two minutes.
Got the message (!) and decided NOT to continue restoring citations pending request for enforcement.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Date Explanation
Date Explanation

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.
Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on Date by Username (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date
Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date.
Successfully appealed all their own sanctions relating to the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on Date.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

See explanation by NeilN accompanying his editing restrictions imposed on 18 April 2018 (quote) Editors are subject to a one revert per twenty-four hours restriction when reverting logged-in users. Poeticbent talk 23:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My reply to comment by Sandstein (16 May 2018). This has been going on for months thereby causing me great distress. For Icewhiz, all Polish sources are mere "opinions of Polish nationalists".

Icewhiz 10:47, 26 March 2018 (UTC): use of recent sources from within Poland in regards to the estimate is questionable.
Icewhiz 07:59, 27 March 2018 (UTC): The opinions of Polish nationalists (and lest I be accused for singling out a nation - the same is true of Russian, Ukrainian, or American nationalists) are for the most part WP:UNDUE, out of WP:PROPORTION, and possibly WP:FRINGE in the scope of scholarly discourse on Holocaust history.
Icewhiz 07:50, 27 March 2018 (UTC): As for including opinions of PhD holders - if we were to include the opinion of every PhD published on the web - that would be a very wide inclusion criteria. Nationalism, as a movement as a whole, is not fringe. A specific flavor of nationalism (in this case - Polish nationalism) - is a small minority...
Icewhiz 14:55, 3 April 2018 (UTC): surely there is a better source than Ambasador RP w Szwajcarii (Ambassador to Switzerland)
Icewhiz 11:02, 8 April 2018 (UTC): Institute of National Remembrance. That's not a peer reviewed publication or an academic publisher, but a government run organization. A better source, if available, preferably in English, would be an improvement.

What followed was a series of disruptive edits in mainspace along the same lines, meant only to inflict pain. If it wasn't Icewhiz but someone else, I would immediately report this user as a WP:vandalism-only account which (at that point) it certainly was:

Icewhiz 11:55, 25 April 2018 (-11,007)‎ Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust ‎ Quite a bit here is not sourced. The source in the lead is not a RS.
Icewhiz 11:56, 25 April 2018 (-1,645) Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust ‎ (→‎References: not RS.)
Icewhiz 11:57, 25 April 2018 (-268)‎ Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust ‎ (→‎Bibliography: not RS)
Icewhiz 11:59, 25 April 2018 (-933)‎ Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust ‎ (remove non-RS.)
Icewhiz 12:01, 25 April 2018 (-386)‎ Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust ‎ (→‎Jews and the Church: not RS. Text left unmodified - other supporting ref.)
Icewhiz 12:01, 25 April 2018 (-555)‎ Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust ‎ (→‎Difficulties: not RS)
Icewhiz 12:03, 25 April 2018 (-991)‎ Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust ‎ (→‎Jews and the Church: Mislabelled authorship. Not a RS.)
Icewhiz 12:04, 25 April 2018 (-561)‎ Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust ‎ (→‎Bibliography: not RS)

I created that article with a lot of effort; and, I don't see how, with so many disruptive edits by Icewhiz within just several minutes, I could still pretend to continue to comment on content, not on the contributor anywhere in Wikipedia. However, it was just the beginning as I soon found out.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified, 6 May 2018.

Discussion concerning Icewhiz

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Icewhiz

A number of comments:

1RR is not relevant. There is a page level restriction on Collaboration in German-occupied Poland‎, not on any page Poeticbent mentioned (some of which may not be under ARBEE - but most probably are). It seems this report was partially copy-pasted from a 1RR vio report I filed above.
I was not notified of this AE filing by Poeticbent as required (the diff supplied [248] is a WP:POINTy BLP DS alert by Poeticbent - with text copy pasted from an alert I gave him after after he made this comment on a talk page, and given he made similar comments in the past (calling a work by a notable historian a "fabrication").
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anna Poray was made in good faith - despite the 45 WP:ILIKEIT votes that appeared in very short succession (from non-AfD regulars) after nomination. The subject does not meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines (doesn't come close to meeting SIGCOV. BEFORE doesn't show much else. This was a librarian who in retirement ran a website http://www.savingjews.org/ which was also WP:SELFPUBLISHed as a book or e-book (publishing house listed as A. Poray), 7 refs in articles - 2 are by Poray herself, 2 are interviews on releasing the book (in sources that may not be RSes - however interviews do not establish notability regardless), 3 are obits).
I have indeed removed references to WP:SPS - this is well grounded in policy. In most cases I left a cn needed tag (as I suspected the information was copied (possibly with overlaid editorial) from a primary RS initially - e.g. Yad Vashem). In some cases I suspect the subjects mentioned were possibly BLPs (e.g. the son/daughter of a WWII era person) - which I removed outright per SPS: Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.. Note that it seems that Poray, other than her self-published book, never published in a reliable source, so it doesn't seem she falls under (the use with caution exception) the Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. (which doesn't apply to BLPs in any event).
Regarding the Poray SPS I have engaged in discussion where reverted - see Talk:Żegota#Anna Poray - SPS. Also see PB's response - [249] (which contains personal attacks, addressing SPS with a very short and novel argument of "Anna Poray is not a WP:SPS publishing historian because she is deceased" (AFAIK self-published books do not become published on the death of their author)). The following 2 diffs are BLP violations by Poeticbent [250] and GizzyCatBella [251] (unless they have a RS for each of the 27 names showing they are dead - per WP:BDP we assume individuals less than 115 year old (birth year 1903) are alive.).
GizzyCatBella has been inserting/resorting SPS content in a discretionary sanction area against policy - [252], [253], [254], [255]. including false information (see Talk:Collaboration in German-occupied Poland#"only German-occupied European country" with death penalty and Talk:The Holocaust in Poland#"only occupied county with death penalty" for detailed refutation) from a questionable (Talk:The Holocaust in Poland#Use of Ewa Kurek as a source) author without discussing (I will note that I believe that a consensus has been reached with other editors to exclude) - repeatedly - [256][257][258][259][260]. (I will note I took this to RSN[261] - but it shouldn't have gone there - as there are no grounds for inclusion of information proven false, by a questionable author, in a self-published (iUniverse) setting). Note the IDHT given Talk:Collaboration in German-occupied Poland#Your Life is Worth Mine: How Polish Nuns Saved Hundreds of Jewish Children in German-occupied Poland, 1939-1945 - E. Kurek (while editing as an IP for a month (self-admitted)) back in April following another attempt at using Kurek.
Poeticbent has been inserting SPS content (over a very long period, however an exhaustive list of diffs will take time to compile) in several articles. He has been reverting removals (and for the most part not discussing constructively) - [262][263][264] (added when PB created the article),[265] (created by banned user Ecoleetage, Poray added by PB in 2008), [266].
I have been cleaning up poorly sourced and even outright fringe material (contrast Stawiski#Jewish community with the last version by Poeticbent whose actions have been commented on (not by myself - well before I started improving some of these articles), in the press outside of Wikipedia (this item does not mention Poeticbent by name, but if you follow the article history he is "On each occasion, the author of the Wikipedia Stawiski article immediately wiped out my edits") - I will note that this item makes the interesting observation that "Surprisingly, the Polish Wikipedia articles evidence greater willingness to admit Polish participation in massacres of Jews" (a pattern I have seen myself on many low traffic articles - I've been balancing some of the English Wikipedia articles using the Polish Wikipedia (tone and sourcing used there) - as the Polish Wikipedia is much less POVish, reflecting a diversity of Polish (and foreign) sources (as opposed to a very particular POV type of sources used in these enwiki articles)). Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Massacre of Brzostowica Mała (2nd nomination) and Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2018 March 23 (IIRC - created by Tymek, but heavily expanded by Poeticbent) are also instructive regarding the sort of content that has entered into the English Wikipedia in less visited topics.
During these cleanup efforts, I have been personally attacked by Poeticbent several times. As an example, please see the following: [267], [268], [269], [270], [271], in an edit summary - restoring SPS, [272], [273], [274], [275], [276], [277].

To sum up - removing a WP:SPS from articles, as mandated by policy, should not be attacked - definitely not on a personal level, and this is not a valid AE report (both in form (1RR, no notification) and in substance (removing a SPS is not a policy violation - to the contrary)). Despite the personal attacks, I have responded in a WP:CIVIL manner and on-topic (and I hope to the point, though I self-admit my writing may be winding) - addressing the content/sourcing dispute at hand, and not Poeticbent personally. Icewhiz (talk) 03:24, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Masem: - my intention had been following an attempt at removing this clear SPS to proceed to the relevant talk pages and then to RSN if need be - following BRD. Many of these were added a long time ago when sourcing standards may have been laxer - it was not clear a-priori that removal would be challenged.Icewhiz (talk) 04:51, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Masem: - regarding WP:FAIT - It is less than 60. I did not continue removing this SPS from other articles after being challenged by Poeticbent via reversion - I was not "apprised that those edits are controversial or disputed" while I was editing. I can revert all of my removals of this SPS in less than 15 minutes - this is much easier/faster than reviewing the articles and finding them in the first place - and I will do so myself if consensus is against this change (which I believe is well grounded in policy, this being self-published by an author not previously published in this field in a RS).Icewhiz (talk) 14:15, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I do however request that the following diffs with personal attacks by PB (a selection of item 9 above) be examined - [278][279][280][281][282][283][284].Icewhiz (talk) 14:20, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

RE Piotrus - I did notify Poeticbent of the AfD. I want to note that the mass insertion of WP:QS authors self-published works (such as works by Ewa Kurek, Mark Paul, Anna Poray) is a serious WP:NPOV / WP:FRINGE issue. Take Poray for instance - Her self published work was present in some 50 Wikipedia article (in many of them - further reading or as reference that was not inline, much of this inserted by Poeticbent) - google scholar has her at 0 citations (scholar only accounting for academic use). Contrast this with Gross's Fear - 359 google scholar cites vs. 11 uses on Wikipedia (including articles on Gross and the book itself), or Neighbors 718 google scholar cites vs. 13 Wikipedia cites (4 of them being the book, Gross, a book award, and a list of books).

Poeticbent has been inserting (and defending with great gusto) several of these WP:FRINGE WP:SPS works. At present, we have some articles that read like Alternate history - describing the Holocaust as a collaboration between Jews (Per Kurek they "had fun in the ghettos"[285] enjoying autonomy and self-governance under the Germans[286]) whose activities "'constituted de facto collaboration with Nazi Germany, with which the Soviet Union shared a common, criminal purpose and agenda in 1939–1945" (see this diff - quote from Mark Paul - from NEIGHBOURS -On the Eve of the Holocaust,); Oddly (per Paul, Kurek, and Poray who have all written on the subject) the majority of Poles acted in a noble fashion and despite the Jewish persecution against them - acted in an organized and dis-organized effort to rescue Jews on a massive scale - although this was not recognized properly by Yad Vashem's righteous awards. (mainline historical writing, while extolling the few righteous, seeing rescuers as a persecuted minority (by Poles and Germans) - with Jews in Poland being killed at one of the highest rates (approaching 90%) in the Holocaust - the majority of survivors surviving outside of Poland - escaping (or being expelled to the gulags by the Soviets) to the east).

This is the true disruption here - not only are these highly questionable authors, but more importantly - WP:FRINGE text from them is inserted into Wikipedia articles, in Wikipedia's voice and without balancing sources, in the first place - counter to WP:SPS / WP:BALASP / WP:FRINGE - attempts to rectify the situation are met with long discussions (with no policy legs), call for administrative action, and vehement personal attacks ([287][288][289][290][291][292][293]).Icewhiz (talk) 05:47, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Additional personal attack/WP:ASPERSIONS by Poeticbent - 15:33, 16 May 2018 - (selective quotation) you are being manipulated by a POV pusher with a deep bias against Polish people in general.... Dozens of Wikipedia articles about Poland are under attack by the same WP:TAG TEAM on the basis of a smear campaign by Israeli media. Instead of buying into this WP:GAME of casting aspersions .... It is a false claim made by notorious POV pushers. (it also describes Poray's work in a manner not congruent with Wikipedia policy or other RSes).Icewhiz (talk) 15:42, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein: While the original circa 2008 additions by Poeticbent are not actionable, the multipe recent reverts by Poeticbent [294][295][296][297] [298] and GizzyCatBella [299], [300], [301], [302] - after they have been clearly challenged as WP:SPS (by a fringe author to boot - and USHMM incidentally collects everything holocauat related - also fringe /denialist) - are actionable as editors are supposed to adhere to core policies such as WP:V and WP:NPOV in a sanctioned area. This is not a borderline source - this is a clear fringe, self published book, by a non expert who has not published in a RS on this topic. I will further note that the revert in the Zegota article violates BLP policy (both of them being alerted to) - assuming they did not verify that all 27 named individuals are dead - then they are assumed alive per BDP.Icewhiz (talk) 17:39, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

RE the diffs causing "great distress" above - the first 3 are to a page (talk and main) Poeticbent never edited (he did place a single oppose comment in the DYK nom). However, this page (talk and page) was edited heavily by GizzyCatBella at the time. This is quite interesting in regards to still open Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/GizzyCatBella and the evidence therein, being possible additional evidence.Icewhiz (talk) 03:44, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

RE Poeticbent: For Icewhiz, all Polish sources are mere "opinions of Polish nationalists". - this is a stmt easy to refute - as I've used Polish language sources (including nationalist ones - government in exile) for Aleksander Piotr Mohl e.g. [303][304][305][306][307], in Jan Grabowski (historian) (Polish language or Polish authors (in German and English)) - [308][309][310][311], or in Piotr Śmietański (where I removed text that was sourced to a blog which didn't actually make this claim, and then expanded the text there based on an article by two Polish historians) - [312][313]. These popped off the top of my head - but there are probably quite a few additional examples.Icewhiz (talk) 11:40, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

RE Poeticbent : In regards to Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust diffs presented- this is an article (also after these removals, all the more prior to them) with serious V and NPOV problems, not reflecting mainline sources - in its present state, as a hagiography with dubious and false claims - it might be a net-negative for existence (the topic - is notable - and yes - there are some 6500+ recognized Polish rescuers of Jews). I removed self-published material from Mark Paul (a figure shrouded in mystery - little is known of him beyond his connection to KPK's good name committee - scant coverage of him, though his self-published writings have been referred to as an expression of the "ignoble ungrateful Jew" myth in a footnote in a RS - [314]) and Ewa Kurek (who is better known, but notorious - views described as outlandish ("Jews had fun in ghettos"), compared with David Irving, and described as a Holocaust Distorter [315][316][317][318]). Following adamant support for inclusion of this WP:SPS material (iUniverse in one case) by Poeticbent and GizzyCatBella - I took it to RSN - Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#The Holocaust in Poland: Ewa Kurek & Mark Paul (which elicited comment also from a brand new account). However, I submit that supporting the inclusion of self-published material by authors described in RS as writing "myths" or engaging in "holocaust distortion" in an article about the holocaust - is a serious WP:NPOV and WP:V problem. While Poeticbent's authorship goes back a while, the support (discussion, reversion, and in other articles - addition) of Poeticbent and GizzyCatBella for these sources (Kurek, Paul) is current.Icewhiz (talk) 12:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by GizzyCatBella

Please recognize that this is not the first time Icewhiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is doing that [319] The same happened to another historian Marek Chodakiewicz - 19 mass removals, some in the repetition of 2 minutes of each other. Attempts of discrediting and removal of other historians under false pretexts are constant and against the view of the majority of other editors.[320] That is not genuine effort to build Wikipedia on the part of Icewhiz; this is a massive POV pushing and violation of precepts. Once again, I urge the evaluating administrator to take a sound look at Icewhiz editing record on Polish history articles (please). This user should be topic banned in my honest belief.GizzyCatBella (talk) 01:26, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by François Robere

First of all, let me state the obvious: GizzyCatBella is everywhere. I haven't seen a single ANI case where she didn't appear to contribute some comment or another, invited or not. She may seem well-mannered, but make no mistake: It's WP:HOUNDING.

The topic in question is subject to much abuse, not least by this editor. She adds questionable sources again and again - non-historian Leszek Pietrzak [321], borderline denialist Eva Kurek [322], self published Mark Paul [323], dated sources [324], political appointees [325], and even "light reading" books [326]; all the while questioning encyclopedias [327], respected scholars [328][329][330][331], the occasional paper of record [332] and other RS. This choice of sources seems to serve an agenda [333], and isn't helped by other editors' misconceptions of "what makes an RS" [334]. Problematic enough? It's happening in multiple articles at the same time.

I submit that while Icewhiz's changes may have been swift, his judgment of sources is excellent and should be understood in the context of what I just described: recurring insertions of tendentious non-RS material to multiple articles at a time, with what appears to be an intent to sway an entire topic area towards a particular POV. Taken like this, Icewhiz's edits seem not only beneficial, but efficient. François Robere (talk) 10:48, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Aside on conduct: I understand Icewhiz's outrage with Poeticbent's comments. The latter seems to have taken an interest in him and in myself, moving from derogatory comments that one admin characterized as "[reeking of] bad faith and shade" [335], to accusations of "gang attack on a woman" [336]. Needless to say this isn't acceptable. François Robere (talk) 15:39, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@My very best wishes: This seems to fall on whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. This would allow for eg. a published expert who also happens to write a blog, but not someone who only self-published. François Robere (talk) 13:21, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@My very best wishes: Excuse me, but aren't our standards supposed to be higher then "her book is cited a number of times"? Especially in this topic area, where there's no shortage of good sources? And why should the removal of these sources be discussed, rather than their addition? If it's tendentious and poorly sourced, editors shouldn't add it to 50 articles simultaneously. Incidentally, it's the same editors who fought tooth and nail against having Gross, Grabowski, Bauer and other sources of impeccable scholarly reputation who are now pushing these sources every which way. François Robere (talk) 12:14, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein: A possible conduct problem could be the mass removal of those references What about mass additions? Would a pattern of using low-quality sources to justify contentious claims constitute a "conduct problem"? François Robere (talk) 14:53, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by My very best wishes

There is no policy that all references to self-published sources must be automatically removed. According to the policy, Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. The self-published book by this author has been cited in several other books [337] and sources. The author may or may not be notable, but still be an expert. Therefore, I think the removal would need a WP:Consensus in this case. It was done without consensus.My very best wishes (talk) 13:00, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@François Robere. Her book was cited by others a number of times. Does she qualify as an expert on the subject of Polish people helping Jews during German occupation? This is something debatable. So it needs to be discussed and decided. Blanket removal of references without an appropriate discussion and consensus, even after the objections were raised by another contributor, was grossly inappropriate, in my opinion. My very best wishes (talk) 14:37, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Piotrus

Mass removal of sources from dozens of articles in a controversial area should not be done without gaining consensus. I don't understand why there was no RSN discussion about her first, as would seem prudent. I doubt there is anything actionable here (AfD is hardly bad faith, it is totally fine to test the notability some topics through an occasional AfD), however I'd hope in the future Icehwiz will not mass remove sources (SPS or not) in controversial area without RSN discussion first (one, I will add, that should ping, if possible, editors who added said source in to the Wiki in the first place). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:48, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

Much as I may or may not sympathize with perhaps deleting the Anna Poray article (if this is the result of the AfD), I don't think wholesale deletion of 60 Anna Poray refs before her own article has been decided is the best approach, unless perhaps there is strong evidence all 60 refs were insidiously added to the Wiki by one single editor, or a coordinated simultaneous cabal of editors. Absent that, each deletion would have to be well justified by its own merits and for just cause. I am not a fan of eliminating refs willy nilly, and there is usually room to qualify WP:QS in the text or otherwise deprecating such arguments w/o memory holing them. XavierItzm (talk) 10:37, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by K.e.coffman

I’m only tangentially involved in these disputes, but I’m sympathetic to Icewhiz’s position when it comes to obscure / WP:QS sources, having taken part in a number of RSN / TP discussions: RSN: Discussion (Paul; Kurek), as well as here: "only occupied county with death penalty”. In this AE, Anna Poray was referred as a “notable historian”, which is not really the case, when it comes to the definition of ‘historian’ as being “a student or writer of history; especially : one who produces a scholarly synthesis”. The flowery language of “Poray-Wybranowska published a ground-breaking book entitled Those Who Risked Their Lives in 2007^[1]" is cited to the book itself.

References

^ Anna Poray (2007). Those who Risked Their Lives (Google Books listing). Anna Poray. ISBN 0979221307. Retrieved 7 October 2013.

Regarding the statement that this book is used in 60 Wikipedia articles – my general observation is that, with so much written about the Holocaust in Poland, better sources are surely available and there’s no need for non-peer-reviewed texts from WP:QS publishers. I’ve dealt with a situation in WW2 articles where many pages were citing the pulp writer Franz Kurowski; that’s not necessarily a sign of the reliability of an underlying source. In Poray's case, I would treat the book as a WP:QS source. There has to be a compelling reason to keep such sources in an article. And certainly not in situations when they are listed in "Further reading" or not used for citations. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:43, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by E.M.Gregory

I took a close look at Poray after noticing Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anna Poray. She is certainly a WP:FRINGE, revisionist whose work is cited only by an ideologically extreme group of like-minded FRINGE historical revisionists, and by enthusiasts of this sort of invented, partisan history editing Wikipedia. It is damaging to the project to mislead our readers by supporting pages with sources/authors of this calibre.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:08, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by E-960

I find the constant push to use rhetoric as very detrimental to the overall discussion on the topic of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anna Poray, user E.M.Gregory continues to write that Poray is a WP:FRINGE scholar. But, let me ask you... would the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum list one of Poray's books if she was a FRINGE or REVISIONIST author?? Pls see here: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum - Collections Search - Polish Righteous, those who risked their lives by Anna Poray.. --E-960 (talk) 16:32, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Follow up comment. If you don't agree with Poray, that's fine, there are many notable scholars who over/under estimate things, but to just keep repeating that Poray is a WP:FRINGE author, is absolutely baseless. What is it about the Second World War or the Holocaust, that Poray got SO wrong to be completely discredited. --E-960 (talk) 16:46, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Icewhiz

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I'll just leave here the idea that the AfD mentioned seems to be populated with a number of people using CAPITAL LETTERS, as ... oddly, do some of the AE reports above this one. Examining the contrib history of some of said editors (not Poeticbent) may be interesting. Just an observation, like ... Black Kite (talk) 00:02, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Waiting on icewhiz's response but the two examples above don't appear to be violations of 1RR since Icewhiz appears to have stopped after one revert. --regentspark (comment) 01:00, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I was going to recommend closing this with no action but Sandstein's comment below and Poeticbent's post on sources [338] gives me pause. It appears that Poeticbent doesn't understand what constitutes a reliable source and is then conflating this lack of understanding with the idea that Icewhiz is a biased editor. That's not a good combination. Perhaps a short, timed, topic ban might allow Poeticbent to edit in areas they are less passionate about and gain a better understanding of the how to of Wikipedia.--regentspark (comment) 12:17, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would argue that mass removal of a specific named source or academic/historian/whatever of this size should have some type of broader discussion before the removal is acted along, along the lines of WP:FAIT (but same can be said about inserting such a yet-validated source/academic in a mass number of articles for the same reason). That itself in this case I can't say is actionable, but its the type of behavior that doesn't help avoid battlefield behavior in these topic areas. --Masem (t) 04:27, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Icewhiz, my only concern is that there's a balance between properly following BOLD/BRD to remove some SPS, and doing a mass wipe of them that would evoke issues related to FAIT. Even if the author's sources are all SPSs, the fact they were used across 60 some instances would have me check to see if it was a single editor that added them in the same time period (fully justifying a BRD removal), or if they have been used by many editors over a broad period of time and thus should be discussed better. SPSs are not automatically disqualified as RSes, but they should be reviewed carefully. As I said, on that aspect, there's nothing immediately actionable, but I do express the need for caution when doing such a large "change" even if one feels they are following BRD for that. --Masem (t) 06:06, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree that per Icewhiz's diffs for Poeticbent and GizzyCatBella, reversion of removal of the sources that Icewhiz at least calls out as SPSs in the edit summary is problematic behavior in an area covered by an AE already. I'd definitely at least trout and caution both of them to restore/revert removal of sources that have been called out as a problem, and just a general call that when issues of a specific author or source are in question, it is generally better for cooperation/minimal disruption to seek consensus first. --Masem (t) 17:51, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Whether the work by Anna Poray should be used as a source, and for what, is a content issue which AE does not adjudicate. A possible conduct problem could be the mass removal of those references, but the request does not identify any conduct policy violated by this mass removal. The ArbCom principle in WP:FAIT applies only after the mass editor "is apprised that those edits are controversial or disputed", and it is not alleged here that the mass edits continued after such apprisal. Moreover, the removals seem to have been undertaken in good faith based on the opinion that the work is not an appropriate source for Wikipedia to cite (which I can prima facie understand, given that it is apparently self-published), and not with disruptive intent. I would therefore take no action here. Sandstein 14:00, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@François Robere: Mass edits (either removals or additions) can present conduct problems depending on the circumstances, but the hypothetical situation you describe is not before us and does not need to be decided here. Sandstein 17:01, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've looked more closely at Icewhiz's counterallegations regarding Poeticbent. The charge of misusing SPS isn't something I'd act on, because it's close to a content dispute and it's not realistic to expect admins here to check the reliability of this number of sources; that would need an ArbCom case. But I think that Icewhiz's complaint regarding personal attacks by Poeticbent are actionable; one needs only to look at their most recent edit ("you are being manipulated by a POV pusher with a deep bias against Polish people in general") in addition to Icewhiz's examples to get the impression that this is somebody who operates in full WP:BATTLEGROUND mode. I think that a topic ban from the World War II history of Poland (the apparent topic of this set of disputes) would be appropriate here. Sandstein 20:49, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

E-960, there are 275,377 items in that collection, and at any rate being in a library collection doesn't mean very much. Having read over all this I agree with Sandstein, Masem, and Regentspark. Drmies (talk) 16:35, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ayytro

Blocked for one week. Sandstein 14:08, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Ayytro

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Shrike (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 19:15, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Ayytro (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3 :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

[339] Editing Arbpia article
[340] Editing Arbpia article

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 12 May 2018

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

The user have less then 500 edits and he was specifically warned not to edit I/P articles.Also his use of "IOF(Israel Occupation Army)" instead of IDF raise the question if an editor can edit neutrally even after gaining 500 edits.--Shrike (talk) 19:15, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[341]

Discussion concerning Ayytro

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Ayytro

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Ayytro

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Yes, this violates the prohibition. Blocked for 1 week in view of the user's infrequent editing. Sandstein 14:08, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Cassianto

Appeal declined. SQL ^{Query me!} 04:28, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Cassianto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Cassianto^Talk 22:12, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: Block of one week

Administrator imposing the sanction: Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: [342]

Statement by Cassianto

This was a report of disruptive behaviour, on a contentious article, to an uninvolved administrator on their talk page. Another helpful admin was also present and between them they brought calm back to Sinatra and one of the committee's coverted DS notice was dished out by the ever so helpful RexxS. I was not "discussing" infoboxes and the use of them. To have a "discussion" about Infoboxes would require at least two people to...erm... discuss them, and a discussion, in its literal sense, would require at least two comments from either side. I am fully aware of my limitations, as per here. I was trying to be transparent by reporting this over wiki and seeing as this case was "not about Cassianto", then you should all be thankful that I'm helping to fight this problem rather than aid it. Both Bishonen and NeilN have stated that it never even occurred to them that my report was in breach of this clumsily written sanction. Clearly, this is just another example of someone with tools not able to write a clear and coherent instruction; quite what Sandstain's use of "abstract" means is beyond me. But if the committee really want to force me underground to email people off-wiki about such matters, then fine, I will, and none of you will be able to prove otherwise.

Re Sandstein: "No, I'm not defending the reverted edit, it's clearly disruptive trolling. But as a topic-banned editor, Cassianto should have let somebody else address it." -- I did, on Bishonen's talk page. This is wholly contradictory, bearing in mind, according to you, I'm banned "in the abstract". How else would you propose that I let Bish know...by the power of positive thought?

Statement by Sandstein

This appeal should be declined.

Cassianto is subject to a topic ban (WP:TBAN) from infoboxes ([343]). The ban prohibits Cassianto from making any edits involving, or about, infoboxes. By making such an edit at [344], Cassianto violated the ban. The block was therefore necessary to enforce the ban.

Edits such at the one at issue here are neither excepted from topic bans by WP:BANEX nor by any other policy. The point of the topic ban (and the preceding ArbCom sanction against Cassianto) was exactly to get Cassianto out of acrimonious disputes about infoboxes, such as the dispute Cassianto attempted to further with the edit at issue. The conduct at issue here was therefore exactly the kind of conduct the topic ban was intended to prevent.

Cassianto previously unsuccessfully appealed this topic ban to WP:AN ([345]). It is therefore clear that the ban is valid and binding on Cassianto. The statement by Cassianto, above, that they intend to circumvent the ban by off-wiki proxying is a further indication that Cassianto does not intend to abide by the valid restrictions applying to them, and that the block (or probably a longer one) is therefore needed to prevent Cassianto from violating these restrictions. Sandstein 06:32, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, I now noticed another topic ban violation by Cassianto just prior to the edit at issue here. Sandstein 12:01, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Bishonen: I do not know who among the users involved here supports or opposes infoboxes, and I don't see why this should matter here. Sandstein 17:04, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Mr rnddude: No, I'm not defending the reverted edit, it's clearly disruptive trolling. But as a topic-banned editor, Cassianto should have let somebody else address it. Per WP:BMB, "bans apply to all editing, good or bad". Sandstein 09:31, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Premeditated Chaos: I agree that the edit taken in isolation would probably not merit sanctions (although it does contain battleground-like, aggressive statements). But what you may not be aware of is that Cassianto is subject to a comprehensive topic ban from infoboxes, which applies without respect to the merits of their edits. The ArbCom have clarified that the ban is within the scope of discretionary sanctions, and uninvolved editors at AN have declined an appeal against the ban. Under these circumstances, I think that for an arbitrator to question the enforcement of the topic ban is to question the binding nature of discretionary sanctions imposed per WP:AC/DS itself, and therefore the possibility of effective enforcement of the Committee's decisions. Is this what you are arguing for here? Sandstein 09:38, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@RegentsPark: I do not think that reducing the block duration would be appropriate here. Cassianto's latest statement indicates that they do not understand (or pretend not to understand) what a topic ban means: no editing related to the topic, period. The block is therefore still needed to prevent Cassianto from continuing to violate the topic ban. Sandstein 13:52, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SN54129

@Guy: quick point. Yes, almost certainly a "breach." Less certain is whether it was a deliberate experiment, and that is the crux of the matter. As others have suggested, if it was for a reasonable purpose (re. the discussion on Bishonen's talkpage) then that makes it an accidental breach; no mens rea = no "experiment," I suggest. On a broader note, this whole episode of bombasticity seems likely acieve little more than make it harder for editors to report problematic behaviours: a curious position to arise. —SerialNumber54129^{paranoia /cheap shit room} 14:58, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dave

Cass is damned if he does and damn right damned if he doesn't, Decline the case and amend the rule to say something along the lines of "Reporting editors on a users talkpage is fine". –Davey2010^Talk 23:07, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Coretheapple

This was a clear violation of the topic ban. At one point in the recent past (I'd have to comb through the various post-arbitration proceedings to find it) I said that the arbitration decision would never be clear and that you were in for an endless series of hair-splittng and wikilawyering. I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so. Coretheapple (talk) 04:01, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Here it is. "Whatever you decide will be tested further. Nothing ever will be clear." Coretheapple (talk) 04:05, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mr rnddude

I'm just here to address a comment from Sandstein. That second edit you are linking to, is Cass reverting a now indefinitely blocked nothere user. Is trolling really the type of thing you want to defend? Mr rnddude (talk) 04:21, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SchroCat

GoldenRing, I have little time for much of what has gone on at ArbCom, given how unfit for purpose it or its members are, but don't talk about me behind my back - that shows a lack of courtesy. Furthermore, I am not "wikilawyering": if what is supposed to be the main arbitration body on WP cannot do things properly, and draft their decisions with fucking big holes in it, one can hardly expect people not to question the ineptitude. The only thing I'll add, is that if you have a place that is open to ask for clarification, don't bitch and whinge when people actually use it to ... ask for clarification. Don't also be surprised when people are fucking angry that the "solution" ArbCom have come up with still does not address the main cause of grief around IBs - POV pushing, drive-by voting, endless re-litigation, socking, soft and hard canvassing and logged out editing. No-one even bothered to look to look at that, they simply focussed on the people who get frustrated at having to deal with the questions time after time after time with no help or protection from Arbs or Admins. So yes, "forceful" it may be - it's because I'm furious at yet another fuck up that will see yet another IB case at Arbcom in a few years, if more people are not driven away from editing in the meantime. - SchroCat (talk) 08:41, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So Sandstein, do you think it's better to keep battering with heavy-handed blocks, or do you think explanation would be a suitable course to someone who has said they don't know the extent of the sanctions against them? As for "pretend not to understand", please read WP:AGF and remember what it advises. – SchroCat (talk) 14:14, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Softlavender

I have no current opinions on the merits of the current block, but I would like to suggest, in order to avoid future confusion, that an addendum to the sanction be made to the effect that Cassianto is not to mention, refer to, or allude to infoboxes. That would seemingly clear up the grey area. Softlavender (talk) 11:32, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by GoodDay

Likely best to return to WP:AN & ask the community if the entire Arbcom ruling should be appealed. If that's not possible? then further clarification on the ruling would suffice. GoodDay (talk) 11:37, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by GRuban

Support Cassianto's unblock. He was not discussing infoboxes, he was not making article edits related to infoboxes, he was asking an administrator to take action. Surely even if you can't do something yourself, you can still ask an admin for help? User:Bishonen is not a greenhorn who doesn't know what she's doing or can be swayed by a quick appeal, she's one of the most experienced admins on this project. If the request was inappropriate, she would have certainly said so, or possibly even brought down a hammer herself, she is not shy. --GRuban (talk) 15:01, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also what Olive says, below. Right down to the disclaimer... which should, of course, be outlined in a small rectangle and displayed at the upper right of her statement... --GRuban (talk) 21:05, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Olive

Disclaimer: I generally support the use of infoboxes and I have not had a good relationship with Cassianto.

This seems so simple. There is confusion among everyone including the arbs as to whether DS applies to a talk page where a user asks for help. Assume good faith. Warn the user if DS includes the talk page and a request for help. How in heaven's name is the user supposed to know what even the arbs don't seem to agree on. The sanction was draconian and also punitive. That said, why can't an editor ask for help with out going underground? Are we trying to build transparency or not? Something like this happened to me. I understand the frustration and I hope this can be dealt with quickly and most importantly fairly while not damaging a productive editor.(Littleolive oil (talk) 17:41, 17 May 2018 (UTC))[reply]

Comments by Gerda

Cassianto's request for help by Bishonen and watching users (such as myself) was clearly no violation of the original restrictions, and not even a violation on the superimposed topic ban. - Once I'm here: I believe that both the topic ban and the restrictions are too broad. If anybody would listen to me, there were no restrictions on user talk pages (but free discussion). Also, Cassianto (and anybody else) should not be restricted from adding to infoboxes ;) - The idea of the restrictions was to avoid waste of time. We should not spend it here, instead. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:53, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Cassianto

Result of the appeal by Cassianto

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

This looks like a very obvious topic ban violation to me, but I'd like to hear from NeilN and Bishonen as those who were involved in the discussion. GoldenRing (talk) 10:36, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that this looks like a clear violation. Number 5 7 11:57, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
At the very least, this is a breaching experiment. It's time to stop. Guy (Help!) 13:33, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Clear violation. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:36, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As I stated on Sanstein's talk page, I wasn't thinking of Cassianto's topic ban when I replied on Bishonen's page as I hadn't been following the proceedings. Had I been aware that it was still in effect, I would've advised them to disengage. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:54, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've already given my opinion of the block on Sandstein's page.[346] I believe a warning would have been appropriate, and that a one-week block was a draconian response. For the record, I'm also pretty unhappy about Sandstein's comment above, that Cassianto intends to circumvent the ban by off-wiki proxying (=by e-mailing concerns about what he perceives as violations) and therefore needs the block "or probably a longer one" to prevent him from violating his topic ban. Surely not? The intent of the ban was to make sure Cassianto wouldn't disrupt infobox discussions. Wasn't it? Does a topic ban really extend to e-mail as well, and what discussion would it disrupt? And how would a block, however long, prevent somebody from e-mailing, if it comes to that? (Cassianto doesn't actually have wikipedia e-mail, so we can't remove it, and I do believe by now he probably has all the e-mail addresses he could possibly need.) I think you've become overly engaged in this, Sandstein, and are taking a too rigid approach. Threatening to "sanction" RexxS, a well-known supporter (!) of infoboxes, for offering to assist Cassianto off-wiki suggests the same thing.[347] RexxS is a highly respectable and experienced user; the notion that he'd "proxy" for Cassianto is just an offensive assumption of bad faith. Compare RexxS's entirely credible reply here: "Any assistance I give will be to help ensure that he doesn't involve himself in on-wiki conflict going forward, but what contributions I make on-wiki are the product of my own reasoned decisions, not as a proxy". Bishonen | talk 14:42, 16 May 2018 (UTC).[reply]

@Sandstein: No, I understand you don't, or didn't, know that RexxS is a supporter of infoboxes. But are you saying you also don't find the fact of any interest, now that you have been told about it? Considering, I mean, that what's got Cassianto into so much trouble is the way he's expressed his resistance to infoboxes. Bishonen | talk 11:20, 17 May 2018 (UTC).[reply]

I also do not believe Cassianto was trying to fuck around the ban experimentally or otherwise, nor do I believe they're setting up an off-wiki proxy ring. The comment may not have been wise, but that quick block was a bit too quick for my taste. Drmies (talk) 16:19, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Drmies: Consider the history of events; looked at one way, Cassianto was put on probation by the committee; fairly quickly violated the terms of their probation; tried to wikilawyer their way around the terms of the probation; got a wider topic ban as a result; almost immediately violated the terms of the wider ban; got blocked; now is trying to wikilawyer around the terms of the ban again. Whether that's Cassianto's intention or not, I can certainly see how an observer might see events in those terms and when looked at that way, the block is pretty understandable, isn't it? For a first tban vio, I might have picked 48 hours, though on that history I might not have, too. At any rate, Cassianto is no stranger in these parts and should know how these things work. The continual claims that they didn't think they were violating their probation/ban are not very impressive - any other editor, we would expect to be careful around the edges of their ban, and to make the same mistake twice in a couple of weeks at least suggests that they're really not bothered about abiding by the sanctions in place. GoldenRing (talk) 17:47, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Though I should perhaps add that the most forceful wikilawyering has come from ShcroCat, and in my mind SchroCat is not doing Cassianto any favours - most recently with their aggressive input at ARCA. GoldenRing (talk) 17:51, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I know it's generally discouraged for arbs to comment here, but I don't see this particular block as a constructive use of the discretionary sanctions. While I could do without the barbed phrasing at the end of the comment, Cassianto did go through an appropriate channel to legitimately seek assistance with dispute resolution, by way of asking Bishonen to invoke DS - rather than try to intervene with the user directly himself. Frankly that's the kind of thing I'd prefer to encourage in infobox disputes (not only for Cassianto), and I don't think it's helpful at all to slap Cassianto down for it. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:31, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein: I am aware of the TBAN, and I'm not disputing that the post was a violation. However, as I stated above, I don't think that a one-week block was a useful response to this specific situation. I certainly don't think that my disagreeing with your specific enforcement action here "is to question the binding nature of discretionary sanctions imposed per WP:AC/DS itself" in a broad and general sense. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:17, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A clear violation of the topic ban. I wanted to respond specifically to PMC above; the ban exception for "legitimate dispute resolution" applies only to resolution regarding the ban itself, not to resolution regarding others in the topic area. We tried to allow Cassianto to work within normal editing guidelines and remain in the topic area. That didn't work, so they were banned from the area entirely. At this point, Cassianto is unable to participate regarding infoboxes. That was not the desired end outcome, but it's the one he chose by not abiding by his original restriction. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 10:55, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Cassianto's post on Bishonen's talk page is definitely a technical violation of the topic ban. Intent is always hard to figure out but, if enough admins feel that the block was unnecessary or excessive then, perhaps, the straightforward solution is to reduce the length of the block. That way the justification for the block remains in place and serves as a useful reminder to Cassianto that topic bans are not toothless but, simultaneously, allows everyone to move on. --regentspark (comment) 12:26, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In case there's any uncertainty, the ban we are discussing here is Sandstein's from May 2, "I am topic-banning Cassianto from infoboxes for three months as a discretionary sanction". This is a plain old topic ban, not a restriction on how much Cassianto can comment in infobox discussions. Although Cassianto's post to Bishonen was nominally a request for Bishonen to issue a warning, it was not up to Cassianto to ask *anyone* to issue a warning, since they are banned from the topic. Sandstein issued a block 19 hours later, though some admins here think a week was too long. If Cassianto will agree to back off in the future, Sandstein might consider shortening the block. But since Sandstein's block was within discretion, for us to grant an appeal wouldn't be justified. EdJohnston (talk) 15:23, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Cassianto's comment was a violation of the topic ban. A topic ban means to stay away from the topic entirely, whether that's direct edits, talk page comments about it, whatever else have you. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 15:57, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There does not appear to be a clear, substantial, active consensus to overturn this block as is required by policy. SQL ^{Query me!} 04:28, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

SPECIFICO

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning SPECIFICO

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Netoholic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:25, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: SPECIFICO (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBAPDS, specifically Discretionary sanctions guidelines involving decorum and expectation to follow guidelines such as WP:TALKNO, WP:NPA, WP:NOTSOAPBOX, WP:BLPTALK:

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

18 May 2018 - In response to a well-reasoned and scholarly-cited comment, SPECIFICO replies "Bye-bye. No good."
[348], [349], [350] 16 May 2018 - [351] 13 May 2018 - [352] 10 May 2018 - [353] 4 May 2018 - General foolishness/mocking on talk page which doesn't contribute to article improvement
[354] 13 May 2018 - [355], [356], [357], [358], [359], [360], [361] 17 May 2018 - Several WP:BLPTALK slurs & WP:NOTSOAPBOX comments
16 May 2018 Uncivil, dismissive comment to User:Atsme
16 May 2018 WP:ASPERSIONS/WP:NPA against User:JFG
8 May 2018 WP:ASPERSIONS against User:Reissgo (implies a WP:COI)
5 May 2018, 4 May 2018 uncivil replies

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

22 April 2014 - SPECIFICO topic-banned (Oct 2014 expanded to include all Austrian economics) in part due to "edits and talkpage comments on biographical articles have overtly mocked the article subjects"

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on numerous occasions
Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 22 April 2017 by NeilN (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
Successfully appealed all their own sanctions relating to the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 6 February 2018.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

In the evidence section, I've tried to group things in a way that makes sense since these are largely isolated, independent comments. I've also been limited to 20 diffs per the instructions.

While SPECIFICO can occasionally make decent contributions, his activity is lately far skewed toward Talk pages and project dispute pages (such as ANI & AE) than article edits. Along with this shift, his decorum when interacting with fellow editors in the political and economic areas has reached all time lows. Also, his current topic ban was imposed in part because he used talk pages to disparage article subjects he was not a fan of, exactly as he is shown to be doing now related to Trump, etc. Its my feeling that the project would benefit more if he were directed towards other subject areas for the time being until he can demonstrate a willingness to engage on a consistent civil and productive level. Focusing so hard on these areas has caused him to lose perspective and too often to treat talk pages as a battleground/soapboak rather than as a mechanism to improve our articles. I strongly recommend an indefinite politics & economics topic ban, which he can appeal in some time, rather than a short term block. This is a more systemic problem with his working attitude, rather than something of immediate short-term punitive nature. -- Netoholic @ 03:25, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To editor TonyBallioni: - I don't think your response included consideration of the BLPTALK items. Do you not think its a concern that he openly disparages the article subjects, or is AP2 too far gone and we're just going to allow it? -- Netoholic @ 04:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Re "AP2 topic area is a mess" - I'm sorry, but open, unapologetic mocking of editors and article subjects is exactly what makes it so, and perhaps that's because we aren't availing ourselves of the very process (DS) put in place to make this area less prone to reduction to mudslinging and disdain of their fellow editors. -- Netoholic @ 04:55, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To editors TonyBallioni and NeilN: re: "a comment limit per thread" - doesn't that just put an additional burden on fellow editors who have to keep track of SPECIFICO's activity, counting his edits carefully? What defines a "thread"? Can he just add a section header and keep going? What if he limits himself to trash talk in edit summaries? He is a very smart player, and knows the game. Wikipedia is a big place, and politics/economics is a pretty small proportion of it. Do you believe we have to preserve his right to edit in this area, despite his inability to function professionally? -- Netoholic @ 09:02, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning SPECIFICO

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by SPECIFICO

Statement by Mandruss

I've found SPECIFICO's presence at Talk:Donald Trump to be a net-negative, and my sense is that it's been getting worse in the past couple of months. All the things mentioned by the OP are on prominent display there. More specifically, SPECIFICO has pegged User:JFG as a POV-pusher because JFG somewhat consistently takes a Trump-favorable position, contrary to what SPECIFICO Knows to be the Truth. Having identified JFG as a POV-pusher, SPECIFICO feels justified in pushing the limits of WP:NPA and WP:HARASS—stopping just short of "you are a fucking idiot"—as well as turning WP:AGF and WP:BATTLEGROUND on their respective heads.

Latest example: This, aggressively criticizing JFG for - gasp! - starting a survey to resolve a content dispute. That's simply unacceptable where I come from. After a little back-and-forth between me and SPECIFICO, I decided to collapse that as off-topic, whereupon SPECIFICO copied the back-and-forth to a new, uncollapsed subsection of the thread. Over 50 hours later, there have been no other comments there, indicating the level of editor interest in that. Meanwhile, some 16 or 18 editors have participated in the survey with not a peep in support of SPECIFICO's criticism of it. SPECIFICO seems oblivious that their views on things are completely out of step with those of other editors, persistently presenting them as indisputable and self-evident fact.

AFAICT, my political views are closer to those of SPECIFICO than those of JFG, but I look at who is closer to playing by the rules of the game, and JFG runs circles around SPECIFICO in that regard. JFG rarely responds to SPECIFICO in kind, and that shows more self-control than I could muster in his place. I disagree with TonyBalloni that we should address the worst offenders first and that we can't do anything because AP2 is a mess. That constitutes surrender in my book, and we might as well pack it up if many admins take that position. I didn't arrive on scene until about October 2016, so I'll leave it to others to decide whether SPECIFICO has received enough chances to improve; but I don't think the status quo should be acceptable to any objective observer. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:05, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@TonyBallioni: Re-ping, phonetic similarity to TonyBaloney completely accidental. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:08, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by JFG

(pinged) Over several years, SPECIFICO has exhibited a pattern of snark towards her fellow editors, and her strong interest in the AP2 area has degraded the collegiality expected of all participants. As AE proceedings require actionable evidence, here are some recent examples I came across:

Provocative snark towards various editors, sometimes assuming bad faith: [362] [363] [364] [365] [366] [367] [368] [369]
Snitching
Playing admin
- Archived a discussion they don't like one minute after it was hatted[370] (reverted by NeilN as Very *not* apprpriate)[371]
- Wrongly interpreting DS restrictions to contest a validly-challenged edit as the discussion just started[372]
- Calling for a block in response to a content dispute: User talk:MrX#BLP Warning
Misleading edit summaries:
- Adding SYNTH about financial difficulties in the lead of Trump's bio while noting only "add TV show fame" in the edit summary[373]
- Re-instating a challenged edit claiming consensus was established[374] while discussion was ongoing on the talk page (Talk:Useful idiot#Screw Saffire – note the uncivil section title chosen by SPECIFICO); called out by the next editor saying there clearly is NO "consensus" for including this, as evident from the fact that people keep disagreering with you[375]; consensus eventually turned against SPECIFICO's preferred version[376]
- One month after this was settled, SPECIFICO discreetly labeled "copyedit" a removal of the previously discussed well-sourced material.[377] She also had refused her opponent's offer of dispute resolution, with a snide remark.[378]

Overall, SPECIFICO's interventions contribute to the toxic atmosphere in the AP2 area, especially in articles about political "current events", which are contentious enough without her fanning the flames. Her snide comments and threats have had a chilling effect on healthy debate towards article improvement. Some of the attacked editors have quit (and SPECIFICO is proud of that). Warnings have been tried, and had no lasting effect on her behavior. A topic ban is in my opinion long overdue.

Full disclosure: I used to be one of SPECIFICO's hounding targets a year ago.[379][380] Consequently she was barred from calling for sanctions outside the appropriate venues.[381] — JFG ^talk 09:15, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Capitals00

@TonyBallioni and NeilN: In place of sanctioning one or multiple users, I believe that you should put the area under "civility restriction" for all personal attacks and it should be clarified that any allegations based on the user misconduct, credibility, including the concerns about incompetence, tag teaming, should be made on appropriate noticeboard or reported to sanctioning admins. Capitals00 (talk) 10:38, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Compassionate727

First off, I've never commented at anything related to the Arbitration Committee, both from lack of need and because the whole process seems rather complex in a way only bureaucracies can be. Hopefully, I did this correctly.

I became aware of this enforcement request because I watchlisted SPECIFICO's talkpage (along with several others') following a rather heated discussion at MfD. It appears that SPECIFICO's outstanding sanctions are topical rather than behavioral in nature, which I interpret to mean they are prescriptive rather than punitive in nature. I am personally glad that this is the case, because SPECIFICO seems to me to be editing in perfectly good faith, although I confess I have a history of assuming too much of it.

The problem to me seems to a general conduct one rather than a specific issue with political or economic topics. See personal attacks [382], sarcasm [383][384], and otherwise unnecessarily-escalatory rhetoric [385][386] that all occurred at the aforesaid MfD.

However, he seems to me to also be perfectly capable of engaging calmly and constructively [387][388]. Even this seems to me to be an apology, though he never calls it that. To me, the difference between his civil and uncivil responses seems to be merely a matter of how he is engaged, where he responds quite constructively provided he is engaged in a calm and civil manner. Unfortunately, my experience with Trump-related articles here is that civility and especially calmness are altogether lacking.

Obviously, the MfD links are outside the scope of his current sanctions, and my opinion here doesn't really matter anyway. Nevertheless, I would appreciate it if any remedies were interested in attempting to isolate SPECIFICO from tense and uncivil situations, insofar as reasonable remedies can accomplish this. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 13:33, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mr. Daniel Plainview

My limited interactions with this person have been largely negative to date, and I don't see a lot of value that SPECIFICO brings to these pages. I do see this warning at the top of the page where some of this behavior has occurred: Civility restriction: Users are required to follow proper decorum during discussions and edits. Users may be sanctioned (including blocks) if they make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith. Indeed, I have witnessed personally (in addition to the above examples) an ongoing pattern of incivility[389] and assumptions of bad faith. SPECIFICO acknowledges and is aware of this restriction: [390], and has made it clear that he or she does not hold discretionary sanctions in high regard, suggesting that editors should be "comfortable" with personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith.[391][392] The reason why some of these pages are a right mess is because the warnings at the top of the page are simply not enforced, or if they are, I have not seen it. I understand administrators are likely overwhelmed with little dust-ups at all times, but I think there should be some stricter enforcement of policies and less tolerance of blatant contempt for them in order to clean things up a bit. Mr. Daniel Plainview (talk) 18:01, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Factchecker_atyourservice

I've had numerous interactions with SPECIFICO that I would describe as "bizarrely antagonistic", and although he has repeatedly sought to have NeilN block me (e.g. here), I just want to talk about this one specific exchange that helps illustrate what I mean by "bizarrely antagonistic".

This exchange began when I posted the following, referring to breaking stories about Trump's upcoming interview with Mueller and NYT editorial board views about what this means for the investigation. Specifico responded with a withering series of replies that I still don't understand. As far as I can tell, his only purpose was to be heard saying I was wrong about something, except he didn't want to explain what was wrong, and in fact all of his comments revolved around alleged defects on my part.

Yes, I repeatedly and very very bluntly told him to shut up in response, using uncivil language, but it was eminently clear he wasn't trying to discuss anything, and instead just wanted to make personal comments about me.

The exchange continued later, when another editor proposed some content mentioning this same list of questions.

I replied linking the issue to some recent arguments about other news reports, and I referred to the list as "Mueller's leaked wish list of interview questions". SPECIFICO came back with another maddening series of responses in which he simply contradicted me and said I was wrong, and said I hadn't read the sources, again without explanation, even though I requested explanation.

Once it became clear to me that he was just trying to antagonize me rather than actually discuss something, I confronted him about it directly on his user talk page, and he only persisted in the same pattern of calling me wrong, refusing to explain why, and pretending not to understand my request for clarification.

On both the article talk page and his user talk, although my patience had already worn thin I still requested, politely enough, that he clarify what he meant by saying he was wrong, or to cite a source, or give any explanation at all what he was talking about. Instead he was gleeful that he was succeeding in upsetting me, and attempted to do it even further while still refusing the requested explanation (e.g. here and here.) So again, this behavior which I described as "bizarrely antagonistic" was nothing more than an ongoing effort to goad me into making an angry response so that he could then complain to an admin and get me blocked for it—which I fully realize I am risking by bringing my own blunt comments to admin attention. I'm well aware of boomeranging and I'm fresh off a block myself. But I just don't know how to respond to someone so intent at harassing others. Factchecker_atyourservice 20:23, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:My very best wishes refers to an incident in which he says I showed up "uninvited" to make an "inflammatory comment" because I wanted to "ensure the development of a conflict on the talk page" as part of a "set up", but he omits that the reason I showed up at Bull's talk page was to complain about PA's in that very same section that he and SPECIFICO continued to make at usertalk. In fact, comment he linked shows me making that exact complaint. When NeilN confronted him about it, SPECIFICO responded by playing dumb, pretending he had no idea that the comment would be perceived as an insult, when that was actually the SPECIFIC intent. Factchecker_atyourservice 16:28, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Objective3000

I think that Specifico clearly should provide a contrite response indicating that she will act more collegially. But, realize the difficulty faced in the DS articles. Two of the respondents in this filing have, and continue to have, exhibited far more (far more) BATTLEEGROUND behavior in the last week than she. I am concerned that any bans will encourage continuation of such behavior. Apologies for not being specific. I’m not trying to cast specific aspersions or totally excuse any acts. I’m only trying to explain causes of frustration. As I’ve said before here, editing DS articles is like dancing the tango in a minefield. That said, I think Specifico needs to deal with the situation in a better manner and respect that she has held back in responding thus far. O3000 (talk) 00:51, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Shock Brigade Harvester Boris

This whole topic area is already a mess and it's getting even worse. You guys (i.e., the admin corps) should start handing out blocks and topic bans like Halloween candy. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:55, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Geogene

I've been looking at these diffs, and find them extremely underwhelming. If you're going to penalize SPECIFICO for sarcasm, I assume you're planning on enforcing that standard equally. And when you do, pretty soon nobody will be left to edit AP2. Probably not even Shock Brigade Harvester Boris, ~~who I have previously noticed cries out for martial law to be declared in subject areas where he appears to have no other interest or involvement (GMO comes to mind).~~ Oh, except for the sockpuppets/SPAs, who will always be with us, no matter what you do. I don't see how this benefits the project. Geogene (talk) 03:07, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Struck because I can't find that diff, which makes it doubtful it happened. Who was it that proposed to block everyone? It might have been some other dispute. This is going to bother me now. Geogene (talk) 03:48, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (Atsme)

I'm pretty much on the same page as Sandstein in this case - I want to evaluate the response by SPECIFICO - primarily because I don't take pile-ons at face value. My association with SPECIFICO dates back to 2015 but I don't have any animosity toward this editor. We disagree most of the time but I see my pragmatist perception as a net positive; i.e., show me the facts...but I'm not sure of SPECIFICO's position. I think it is cleary worthy of inclusion in an effort to get the full picture. ^{Atsme📞📧} 03:24, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Gandydancer

First I want to say that I give my thanks to any editor willing to edit most of the Trump articles, those that I agree with and those that I don't. But as much as I am very concerned that our encyclopedia truthfully record the Trump administration, I don't have the time and patience to work on most of the articles, even though I am by nature quite a patient person and time is not a problem since I am retired. Considering the present divided state of our union, it is not at all surprising that our Trump article pages should reflect that division. Of course editors working on such a difficult topic are going to lose their patience, be sarcastic, and such. Admins may need to monitor the talk pages more closely, but I strongly object to sanctions for editors such as SPECIFCO. Plenty of Trump editors have certainly irritated me and tested my patience but I've always found SPECIFCO to be insightful, fair, and witty to boot, something that perhaps some others are irritated with and see as spitefully sarcastic but for me is more a tad of lightness in a very difficult editing situation. IMO if we start barring people like SPECIFCO from the Trump articles we can expect them to begin to cave in to a string of biased pictures of this administration. I worry about that since I know it could happen. Gandydancer (talk) 04:37, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Reissgo

My main problem with SPECIFICO is his/her reluctance to take part in the "discuss" part of Bold-Revert-Discuss. I.e. I make a bold edit, SPECIFICO reverts my edit. I start a discussion but then SPECIFICO does not respond. The net result being that I have to seek support from some third party for all the edits I make. I have complained to SPECIFICO about this on multiple occasions, for example here [393] and here [394].

There is also plenty of incivility, like this "Don't push your luck" vague threat [395] when I pointed out the he/she was breaking their topic ban. And a general drip feed of sarcasm and put downs like "Have you considered other hobbies?" here [396].

Statement by My very best wishes

I did not really follow these discussions, but interacted with the users. Consider something like this (link by NeilN). SPECIFICO makes a comment on a talk page of BullRangifer. Not sure if I understand the meaning of her comment, but this is something they would friendly discuss with BullRangifer, without any disruption to the project. Now, Factchecker_atyourservice comes uninvited to the talk page of BullRangifer, with an inflammatory comment: "BullRangifer: if you honestly expect me to abide by your "banning" me from your talk page..." (note that the inflammatory comment by Factchecker_atyourservice was not a response to the previous comments by SPECIFICO and BullRangifer on the talk page). This comment by Factchecker_atyourservice ensured the development of a conflict on the talk page. Now, very same Factchecker_atyourservice argues on this page to sanction SPECIFICO. This looks to me as a set up by Factchecker_atyourservice, whose involvement on various talk pages [397] must be a matter of serious scrutiny if anyone wants to implement sanctions more serious than merely a "last warning". My very best wishes (talk) 15:06, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning SPECIFICO

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I've read through all these diffs. I see nothing sanctionable, and I count as friends some people that the comments were directed at. They are sarcastic in some places, but if we're going to be honest, the AP2 topic area is a mess and these are hardly the worst of any offenders in the area: and even if considered individually, I would have a difficult time sanctioning. I would close with no action with a request to SPECIFICO to maybe be a bit lest sarcastic. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:01, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I see no talk posts that are sanctionable as BLP violations (and no, they wouldn't be sanctionable if someone brought the equivalent things up on Clinton talk pages, before that is brought up.) TonyBallioni (talk) 04:15, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, looking at the diffs NeilN has provided, combined with the above, I see more of a pattern across multiple pages including user talks, which also fall under the sanctions and affect the temperature on these pages. I'm not sure what the best course of action is. I don't think a TBAN or block is warranted at this time, but I do think some action could be taken. If it is a logged warning of some sort to remember to follow the intent of the civility guidelines that would be something. We could also go with something similar to what an arb posted in an unrelated discussion a few days ago: a comment limit per thread. I've found that these are actually some of the more effective restrictions in lowering tensions in other disputes, and allow people to contribute to areas they care about at the same time. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:19, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@TonyBallioni: It would be marvelous if we could formulate something to cut stuff like this out. Editors are smart enough not to attack each other directly for the most part, so they find ways to unnecessarily annoy each other obliquely. SPECIFICO is by no means alone in this or the worst offender. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 05:31, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, which I think a comment limit per thread might help (your diffs are user talks, but some of the ones above are on article talk pages. This would force getting to the point and make jokes/sarcasm that can get under the skin less of a thing on article talk pages, presuming people would prefer to comment on the content. I’m open to other ideas, but I’d prefer not to see a block or TBAN. Not sure how to deal with the user talk concerns, but maybe a warning and limits elsewhere would help. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:37, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure a hard comment limit per thread will work in this area. Unlike infoboxes (I assume you're talking about that case), the most hotly disputed content often comes from recent and breaking news reports, with additional details and sources popping up every few hours/days. Any limit would have to be time-based to account for this. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 09:31, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"AP2 topic area is a mess" - definitely. I'm less ~~enamored with SPECIFICO's behavior than TonyBallioni is~~ willing to let SPECIFICO go with a simple request, with their "who, me??" attitude. They know how to get under other editors' skins but just straddle the line. [398], [399], [400] Probably needs something a bit stronger than a request. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:27, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Capitals00, many of these pages are already under a tightened civility restriction: "Civility restriction: Users are required to follow proper decorum during discussions and edits. Users may be sanctioned (including blocks) if they make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith." Doesn't seem to do much. I actually had conversation with SPECIFICO where they pushed for tougher enforcement of civility. I warned them that that could backfire (as it seems it has, with this AE request). We can stop ignoring the jabs coming from all sides and discount, "yes, but x is much worse, why don't you go after them?" but admins have to be on board with this. Otherwise it's, "You blocked/topic banned for that? Really?" at the inevitable appeal, especially as these jabs can be oblique in nature. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:53, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I do think this is potentially actionable and would like to hear from SPECIFICO. Sandstein 18:22, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Miacek

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Miacek

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: GorillaWarfare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:33, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Miacek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

8 May 2018, 8 May 2018 continuing an edit war started by others, despite being directed to an ongoing talk page discussion
8 May 2018 Disruptively attempting to restart a conversation that was already well underway on the page (later merged up the page by myself)
10 May 2018 Addition of unsourced content
10 May 2018; note edit summary (re-added after revert; again note edit summary) Addition of unsourced content, with the rationale that it is a "widely held belief in incel forums" and "If so much space is allocated to Elliot Rodger why should his crucial belief be omitted?"
12 May 2018 Sexist edit summary "well this would need good sources to remain in the lede. all evidence is women don't care a damn about a man's intellectual capabilities (and it's not just me)"
13 May 2018 Addition of content sourced to a screenshot of a forum post, originally posted at PUAHate.com. Screenshot is hosted at sluthate.com.
13 May 2018 Inability to understand why the sluthate.com source is unacceptable.
15 May 2018 Addition of unsourced content
15 May 2018 ABF against the editor who removed the above unsourced edit
18 May 2018 Created Beta provider -- an article entirely sourced to two sources: a pick-up artist website called "Girls Chase: Get Girls Chasing YOU" and This Black Hole: Anacostia Diaries Continued by Francwa Sims, a book published by a vanity press by quite the eccentric author (see the title page, which identifies the book as: "This Black Hole - The Anacostia Diaries Continues // A Continued Personal Chronicle of the Years Beyond 2000-Plus. Started in the Year of our Lord Two Thousand and Eight Under the Authority of His Excellency, King Barack I (President Barack H. Obama) // May God Save the United States of America and His Excellency, King Donald I (President Donald J. Trump)". The article itself includes such statements as "especially if the woman is under some duress such as being a single mom (perhaps from one night stands with various alphas)".
18 May 2018 Unsourced talk page comments about how women have it easier to find one-night stands, describing it as an "elementary biological fact"
18 May 2018 More addition of uncited content
[401] [402] Repeated, disruptive talk page comments based on personal experience and anecdotes and rarely providing sources, often duplicating conversations that have already happened on the page. When sources are provided, they're often unreliable (e.g. links to Google search results).
17–18 May 2018, 18 May 2018, 18 May 2018 Repeated failure to understand that citing a number of Google Hits is insufficient and not useful

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Miacek has become disruptive in the topic areas of involuntary celibacy, prostitution, and related articles. I am most familiar with him from interactions at Incel and Talk:Incel, where he has tried to skew the article towards treating "involuntary celibacy" as a legitimate phenomenon that isn't covered by articles such as sexual frustration and celibacy, and add text that's uncited or that he attributes in edit summaries as coming from incel forums. His attempts to change the tone of the article on the talk page are disruptively repetitive, both of his previous comments and of other comments by editors on the talk page. He fails to provide reliable sourcing when asked, and does not seem able to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources (and becomes very defensive when asked to familiarize himself with the policy). I think a topic ban would be prudent here.

You can also see evidence of other disruptive editing and poor sourcing complaints in his talk page history (including violations of WP:MEDRS, which he removed with an edit summary accusing the person of harassment) but they are not all related to the ARBGG topic area.

@Miacek: I actually found your Beta provider article while compiling evidence for this AE report. I wish I could say I'm a quick enough researcher/editor to compile a detailed AE complaint while finishing my workday in the short time between you replying to that AfD and me posting this, but sadly I am not. Additionally, I am not trying to make you out as "some kind of inveterate bigot"~~—if anything, you are the one who has called me a bigot [403]~~ Stricken misunderstanding, see below comment. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:47, 18 May 2018 (UTC)) GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:23, 18 May 2018 (UTC))[reply]

@Miacek: You were proposing that alt-right sources are reliable sources about involuntary celibacy, and suggesting they be used to support a statement about "elite men" "acquiring" women... I do think I misread your comment about "wouldn't that be bigoted" at the AfD, though. When I first read your comment I thought you were saying deleting beta provider without deleting bi-curious would be bigoted. I've stricken the point above. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:47, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Miacek: It took me a lot of effort until I proved Angela Nagle was speaking in her own voice rather than reflecting alt-right. For some reason, though, ever new pretexts were found not to reinstate the book. The book is cited in the article (and has been since before you started your conversation about it).

The point of this discussion is so that other folks can weigh in on the issue here, so please excuse me if I don't keep going in this back-and-forth with you—it's clearly becoming less and less productive. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:03, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Miacek: Good advice from Mandruss, but I've had this page watchlisted since even before my days on the ArbCom, so I saw your reply. However, as I mentioned above, I don't plan to continue going back and forth with you here on each small point you bring up unless I think there's a really good reason to—diminishing returns, and all that. But since I'm already replying: I think my diffs above make it quite clear why I think you shouldn't be editing gender- or sexuality topics—it is rare that an editor who's been topic banned from a subject has made 100% poor or disruptive edits to that topic—it's a matter of net results, and your contributions have been net negative. GorillaWarfare (talk) 05:13, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Timotheus Canens: I think a topic ban from anything gender- or sexuality-related, and people associated with such topics, would be reasonable. Jorm mentions explicitly including feminism, but I think a gender/sexuality tban would implicitly include those. Wouldn't hurt, I just think it's a bit redundant. GorillaWarfare (talk) 04:51, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[404]

Discussion concerning Miacek

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Miacek

I find this thread by GorillaWarfare (talk · contribs) disappointing, especially given all my efforts to improve the article Incel and our recent cooperation at the talk page there, see e.g. Talk:Incel#Sub-culture_vs._wider_variety. It seems she couldn't find any proper arguments against my case at AfD (my latest views) and instead wanted to get me banned altogether so as to get rid of an opponent. The article Incel suffers from severe anti-Incel bias which I've tried to rectify with my careful analysis at talk, rather than edit warring. Moreover, I can't see why on earth does she bring up Prostitution in the United States. If anything, my edits reveal willingness to improve the article in good faith by filling in significant lacunae, no [405]? Also, I would like to point out in the wider context of the Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate#Discretionary_sanctions to my good edits in the LGBT topics such as here or here and starting new articles such as on the courageous woman Lisette Kampus which, I believe, should discredit the line seemingly pursued by Gorilla that I'm some kind of inveterate bigot.Miacek (talk) 22:43, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Jorm: What exactly are you criticizing about my "other work in the space of sexuality" apart from Incel and Beta provider where we explicitly disagreed? I was trying to point out at my good-faithed edits on a wide variety edits on the topic of sexuality yet you dismiss it all as "focused around hearsay sources, their personal experience", evidently not true if you had read at least one of the articles I created.Miacek (talk) 23:26, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GorillaWarfare: Oh don't come up with the suggestion I accused you of bigotry, right? I pointed out I disagreed with the (hypothetical) deletion of an article, something you never pursued [406]. And yes, It was you who attributed to me a week ago the following "verdict": "Shocking how hard it is to find reliable sources for viewpoints like "women are subhuman", isn't it...".Miacek (talk) 23:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GorillaWarfare: - "You were proposing that alt-right sources are reliable sources about involuntary celibacy" why can't you just drop the stick? It took me a lot of effort until I proved Angela Nagle was speaking in her own voice rather than reflecting alt-right. For some reason, though, ever new pretexts were found not to reinstate the book.Miacek (talk) 23:52, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GorillaWarfare: - what exactly did you find wrong with my edits to the broader "sexuality" topic that you suggest banning me from? What fault did you find with this harmless article G0y? Or this one - Love Against Homosexuality? Can I expect an answer?Miacek (talk) 04:49, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Neutrality: why this "broad" topic ban stuff? The articles in dispute were only Incel and Beta provider. I've demonstrably made lots of good-faithed edits to various LGBT topics, why ban me from them, too? I suggest you modify your suggestion to reflect this concern.Miacek (talk) 05:04, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Neutrality: But what did I say in my comment? The dispute concerned Incel and Beta provider. And you nevertheless brought up 2 examples, both regarding beta provider. But I was saying I'm one of the few major contributors to topics like LGBT rights in Estonia / Russia, perhaps due to my language skills, yet you only insist on this sole article of mine that was proposed for deletion, instead of considering my reasonable suggestion of a more limited topic ban that would allow me continue work on topics where no controversies arose.Miacek (talk) 05:21, 19 May 2018 (UTC)~[reply]

@Bishonen: "At the same time, when an editor has no understanding of what reliable sources are (per Sandstein and Neutrality above), and does not appear willing to learn" and how did I create all these 100+ articles then I wonder if I have no clue as to "what reliable sources are"? Could you explain me this mystery? Yeah, I will have much to learn from your impressive achievements in this area during the last 4 years. I promise I'll do my best!Miacek (talk) 16:46, 19 May 2018 (UTC) @Boing! said Zebedee: I'm very much willing to learn! Shall you help me? You have lots to teach me on how to write good articles: [407]. This one was particularly impressive with its excellent sourcing (such as Google Msaps), quite contrary to what I've started, like, say this one in something like 4 different Wiki language versions. Shall you give me a try?Miacek (talk) 18:29, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jorm

Miacek has been nothing but a bag of WP:IDHT and disruption at Incel. Their other work in the space of sexuality and gender has been... sub-optimal, focused around hearsay sources, their personal experience, and arguments about "google hits".

Second the topic ban recommendation.--Jorm (talk) 23:21, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

T. Canens: I think something along the lines of "Sexuality, Feminism, and Gender-related Articles, broadly construed" would solve for this particular problem.--Jorm (talk) 04:45, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sandstein

I am editorially involved at Incel, but I agree that Miacek's editing indicates a total lack of understanding of what reliable sources are; see e.g. my comment to them here. I think a topic ban from anything related to sexuality or gender is appropriate. Sandstein 06:32, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Miacek

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Any suggestions about the scope of a topic ban? Given the things being used to source beta provider, I'm also inclined to revoke autoreviewer and reviewer. T. Canens (talk) 04:37, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would impose an indefinite topic ban on all edits related to gender or sexuality. The diffs provided here are damning and the editor has not shown any understanding of basics such as reliable vs. unreliable source.

Miacek, I want to avoid engaging in a lengthy colloquy here, but to respond to your question — your editing is broadly concerning, hence the need for a broad topic ban. Edits here (editing-warring to restore bizarre, self-published, patently unreliable source at alpha (ethology) that had already been removed by another editor) and here (insertion of unsourced content at human mating strategies). Both of these edits added links to the article you created, also without any reliable source. This kind of stuff demonstrates to me that you don't have a sufficient understanding of what constitutes reliable sources in this area. Neutrality^talk 05:01, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

An indefinite topic ban on all edits related to gender or sexuality is the least sanction we can contempate IMO. At the same time, when an editor has no understanding of what reliable sources are (per Sandstein and Neutrality above), and does not appear willing to learn, an indefinite block is more logical. I see them here defending the use of a screenshot of a site called sluthate.com as a reference. Bishonen | talk 14:45, 19 May 2018 (UTC).[reply]
I'm inclined to block indefinitely, with the first year under AE jurisdiction, personally. Topic ban doesn't do the job. Courcelles (talk) 14:53, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Looking through the original complaint as well as the responses here, I'm in agreement with Courcelles suggestion above, with an indef tban on gender/sexuality + revoking autoreviewer/reviewer rights as a second choice. —SpacemanSpiff 17:13, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I support an indefinite block per Bishonen, Courcelles and SpacemanSpiff. The editor's ongoing defense of their use of sluthate.com as a source even after being challenged is conclusive. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 18:14, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm rarely moved to comment here, but an editor who argues that sluthate.com is a reliable source? Oh dear. And Beta provider and its sources? Wow. I've read all of this report and have examined the provided evidence. As a minimum, I support the suggested indefinite topic ban on all edits related to gender or sexuality. And as this appears to be someone very far away from understanding the Wikipedia way of doing things (and apparently unwilling to learn), I would not argue against an indefinite block. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[3] "SavageArms.com". About Savage.

[google-4] Anna Poray (2007). Those who Risked Their Lives (Google Books listing). Anna Poray. ISBN 0979221307. Retrieved 7 October 2013.

[a]

[b]

[1]

[1]

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