Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 September 27

September 27

Template:Flag IOC athlete non-Olympic

• Template:Flag IOC athlete non-Olympic (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Redundant to {{Flag IOC 2 athlete}}. {{Flag IOC athlete non-Olympic|Mark Spitz|USA}} ( Mark Spitz (USA)) can be replaced with {{Flag IOC 2 athlete|Mark Spitz|USA}} ( Mark Spitz (USA)) --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 19:00, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

@Ahecht, thanks for catching this redundancy. As the sole author I redirected it to {{Flag IOC 2 athlete}}, so I think this can be closed. --Habst (talk) 19:05, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Template:Diplomatic missions of Suriname

• Template:Diplomatic missions of Suriname (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

The only real English article linked is the embassy in the Netherlands. The India entry is a redirect. Pointless to have a nax box for 1 entry. LibStar (talk) 15:13, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Template:Diplomatic missions of North Macedonia

• Template:Diplomatic missions of North Macedonia (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Pointless to have a nav box for 1 English entry. LibStar (talk) 15:11, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Template:Diplomatic missions of Ecuador

• Template:Diplomatic missions of Ecuador (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Pointless to have a nav box with just 2 entries. LibStar (talk) 14:59, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Template:Diplomatic missions of Gabon

• Template:Diplomatic missions of Gabon (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Only has 1 English entry. Pointless for a nav box. LibStar (talk) 14:48, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Module:Geological range

• Module:Geological range (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Unused module. Gonnym (talk) 13:29, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Replace and delete lang-?? templates

Replace and delete the approximately 1145 {{lang-??}} templates listed at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 September 27/lang-?? templates with the single template {{langx}}.

The {{lang-??}} templates are all more-or-less forks of some ancient ancestor. Like {{lang}} the primary purpose of these templates is to render non-English text in a way that is html-correct and compliant with the Manual of Style. {{langx}} uses the same rendering code as the {{lang-??}} templates so, given the same language tag and text, renders an identical output:

{{lang-es|casa}} → [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: <i lang="es">casa</i> → Spanish: casa

{{langx|es|casa}} → [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: <i lang="es">casa</i> → Spanish: casa

Like {{lang}}, {{langx}} supports all of the 8000+ languages listed in the IANA language-subtag-registry file. {{lang-??}}: one template for one language; {{langx}}: one template for 8000 languages.

Background

The {{lang-??}} and {{langx}} templates differ from {{lang}} in that they prefix the non-English text with a link to the language article name: {{lang|es|casa}} → <span title="Spanish-language text"><i lang="es">casa</i></span> → casa {{lang-es|casa}} → [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: <i lang="es">casa</i> → Spanish: casa {{langx|es|casa}} → [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: <i lang="es">casa</i> → Spanish: casa For editors who need another language template, their options til now have been: fork a new {{lang-??}} template use the lang_xx_italic() utility function in {{lang}} {{lang|code=es|text=casa|fn=lang_xx_italic}} → [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: <i lang="es">casa</i> → Spanish: casa manually prepend a language-article link to {{lang}}: [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: {{lang|es|casa}} → [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: <span title="Spanish-language text"><i lang="es">casa</i></span> →Spanish: casa create the template using {{language with name}} (which more-or-less does what item 3 does...) do it all manually (not recommended because not html correct): [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: ''casa'' → [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: ''casa'' → Spanish: casa Previous TfDs related to language tagging: Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 August 14 § ISO 639 name from code templates Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2019 July 5 § Link language wrappers (part 1), Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 February 23 § remaining link language wrappers (part 2) Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 August 5 § Wiktionary link templates (fewer templates involved but still related to language tagging)

At this writing template tagging is underway. There are editors who dislike the invasive nature of TfD tags. To minimize annoyance, only instances of {{lang-de}} will display TfD tags.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:05, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Tagging done.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Added Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 September 27/lang-?? templates § the first addendum.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:40, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Added Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 September 27/lang-?? templates § the second addendum.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 10:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

As the creator of {{lang-ymm}}, I did not get notified. Could you please send notifications to the template creators? This seems quite stealthy with neither notifications being sent nor TfD tags being displayed apart from a single instance of over 1000 templates. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I did write in the OP: At this writing template tagging is underway. There are editors who dislike the invasive nature of TfD tags. To minimize annoyance, only instances of {{lang-de}} will display TfD tags. I chose not to notify the authors of the 1145 templates because it is a deal of work to research who they are and then notify them. I will if compelled to but would rather not.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

It just seems like this TfD is hardly visible to anyone apart from TfD regulars and people who happened to stumble across a specific template from the set. 1234qwer1234qwer4 23:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I set {{lang-ru}} to display the tiny TfD notification. If you think that is still insufficient, a list of 'high-use' {{lang-??}} templates is at Module:Transclusion_count/data/L lines 13–74. Feel free to change |type=disabled to |type=tiny in whichever template(s) you think appropriate; remember, {{lang-zh}} is not party to this nomination.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:29, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for the tag. If I understand correctly, if you turn, say, {{lang-ru|Москва|Moskva}} into {{langx|ru|Москва|Moskva}}, it will all still work fine? It appears so. I didn't know {{langx}} even existed until now, I've always used the {{lang-..}} template by copying it from existing pages. It seems rather cumbersome and duplicative compared to the universally applicable {{langx}}. NLeeuw (talk) 14:35, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

You understand correctly. You didn't know about {{langx}} because it didn't exist before 2024-09-20.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:08, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Replace usages with {{Langx}} and delete all lang-?? templates. The current system of creating and maintaining over 1.1k templates (with the protentional of it increasing to 8k templates) is a bad system to keep.

• It always requires active maintenance. If in the future a feature is added, support will need to be manually added to those templates that need it. Here is a very recent example of a template request from a user requesting to add categories or Template:Lang-tdd and Template:Lang-prk, which converted the templates to the newer lang system.
• It requires watching over 1k templates to make sure everything is ok and no vandalism or accidental breakage happens. Here is an example of something slipped through and stayed undetected for over 2 years: Template:Lang-clm had over two years a broken category
• New templates are always being created. Some of them are created for no real reason and left unused: Template:Lang-mtm, Template:Lang-nio, Template:Lang-ohu examples of recently created templates (and currently unused).

The proposed system eliminates all of this and has everything located in one template. For users the change is only one additional character more so is a non-issue. As shown in the proposal, related systems, have previously been converted with much success. Gonnym (talk) 13:44, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I have no particular preference but would like to point out that the old label seems to allow for the easy creation of new labels, split offs, and mergers of linguistic varieties ("languages"). Is this correct?

Why is that important? Linguistics has begun to acknowledge the dynamic nature of the notion "language": what used to be, e.g., German in LUX, is now called Luxembourgish, while Belgian German is something else today. Another example: new languages are being discovered, usually as split offs from what was homogenizingly been considered one language. The language count on Ethnologue increases by about 50 languages a year.

We need a system that allows for an easy change, with the option to list dual classifications when consensus hasn't been reached and two - or more - classifications are in widespread use. MinTrouble (talk) 15:34, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

• The x in the name is for "explicit label", as opposed to {{lang}}? --Joy (talk) 14:37, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

  I originally wanted {{lang-xx}} but that name is already in use. Unable to think of a better name, we settled on {{langx}} where the 'x' is an arbitrary character to disambiguate from {{lang}} so it can mean anything you want it to mean. If you have a better name...

  —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support merge. A better name, per Wikipedia:Template namespace#Guidelines (Template function should be clear from the template name, but redirects can be created to assist everyday use of very popular templates), would be helpful. I'm fine with "langx" as a redirect, but ideally, the canonical template name should be something like "Language text" or "Non-English text" or "Text in language", all of which are currently available names. There is probably a better name that I am unable to come up with at the moment. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:10, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

  {{Labeled language text}}? --Joy (talk) 17:32, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

  Please, can we not decide that here? Please take up that discussion at another venue, perhaps Template talk:Lang. The ultimate name of the {{langx}} template has nothing to do with the proposition at hand. Eschew WP:BIKESHEDING.

  —Trappist the monk (talk) 18:48, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think there's much argument against the replacement, but it is relevant what it is replaced with, because that impacts the future editing of those tens or hundreds of thousands of pages, just like any other template name pattern does. Are you seriously saying we should do the replacements first and then hold a separate RFC for renaming that in turn? That seems like much more flagrant WP:NOTBURO violation to me, because we'd explicitly avoid fixing both problems at once. --Joy (talk) 07:50, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

  Please don't put words into my mouth that I have not spoken. I suggested another venue so that editors who are interested can hash out the details of which template name is best to propose. Feel free to discuss a name change {{langx}} → {{<whatever>}} at any time and at anyplace but not here in this discussion. {{langx}} exists so a parallel TfD is an option. Agree on a better name and then start a TfD. All I want, here, is to avoid sidetracking this discussion (as we are doing now). If you do start another TfD, post a link to it here. Should this TfD conclude in the affirmative, I'm sure that implementation can be delayed until the conclusion of that rename TfD. There is no hurry.

  —Trappist the monk (talk) 12:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

  I mean your proposal is to replace and delete this and the ultimate name has nothing to do with that, but it does, because before we delete lang-xx we have to replace all those transclusions with something, and if we use langx but people then want something else, then we have to do it twice, which is a ton of extra work for no tangible gain; choosing something first would prejudice the name choice later because most people would just say it's not worth the effort. If you think you were misunderstood, try being clearer next time. :) --Joy (talk) 10:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  Did I not write: {{langx}} exists so a parallel TfD is an option. Agree on a better name and then start a TfD. Did I not write: Should this TfD conclude in the affirmative, I'm sure that implementation can be delayed until the conclusion of that rename TfD. There is no hurry. The {{langx}} name will exist either as the canonical name or as a redirect to some other name. If this TfD concludes in the affirmative, the many upon many instances of the 1145-ish {{lang-??}} templates will not be switched overnight. There is time to adust the process even after it has begun. Can we stop having this discussion here? Please take it to Template talk:Lang or my talk page.

  —Trappist the monk (talk) 13:07, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Replacing all usages with {{langx}} and deleting the templates makes the most sense to me, and it'll greatly minimize headaches later on I guess. Yes, might be a pain in the arse to replace all the usages, but it'll even out long term (and fwiw I think {{langx}} is a very servicable name for it) 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 (talk・edits) 23:49, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

  It might not necessarily be such a pain! AutoWikiBrowser could semi-automate regex replacements of \{\{lang-([a-z]{2,3}(?:-[a-z])*)\| to {{langx|$1| to be at least less fiddly.

  This would obviously lean on the assumption that all {{lang-XX}} templates' {{#invoke:lang}} invocation work in the same way, so it'd need some testing still. Mia ^{a data witch!  talk · contribs} 05:38, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

  Alas, that regex doesn't work; try this (regex101.com is your friend):

  \{\{[Ll]ang\-([a-zA-Z]{2,3}(?:-[a-zA-Z]*)*)\|

  But, even a working regex is problematic because it will find-and-fix templates that it ought not find-and-fix: {{Lang-sq-definite}}, {{lang-rus}}, {{lang-grc-gre}}, {{lang-zh}}; there are others.

  —Trappist the monk (talk) 12:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not sure why we're discussing implementation details already, but compiling a template-by-template list of replacements in an xml file to load into AWB seems like the least error-prone solution. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:17, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

  I would rather not discuss implementation details here. If you wish to discuss this further, please use my talk page or Template talk:Lang.

  —Trappist the monk (talk) 19:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Although there are not as many problems with the lang-?? templates as there used to be due to the modularization of the class of templates, issues still remain and the maintenance burden is unnecessary. Further, Trappist is one of the most experienced template maintainers on Wikipedia, if they think this is necessary, then it almost certainly is. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) ^{please always ping!} 02:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support, makes perfect sense to me. Renata•3 04:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support; beyond converting things over this seems like the most elegant and headache-free approach. It would help to modify the relevant MoS entry when this is done too. No real objection to keeping it {{langx}} - it x-plicitly says the language name, which sets it aside from {{lang}}. Mia ^{a data witch!  talk · contribs} 05:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support, {{langx}} is much simpler to use and understand. Bunnypranav (talk) 11:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
• Will {{langx}} have presets for which languages to italicise and which not to, which to link and which not to, ...? I don't know if that's that much easier to maintain. 1234qwer1234qwer4 18:13, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

  I wrote in the OP: {{langx}} uses the same rendering code as the {{lang-??}} templates so, given the same language tag and text, renders an identical output and using your {{lang-ymm}} as an example taken from Lower Shabelle:

  {{lang-ymm|Shibelithy Hoosy}} → [[Maay language|Maay]]: <i lang="ymm">Shibelithy Hoosy</i> → Maay: Shibelithy Hoosy

  {{langx|ymm|Shibelithy Hoosy}} → [[Maay language|Maay]]: <i lang="ymm">Shibelithy Hoosy</i> → Maay: Shibelithy Hoosy

  —Trappist the monk (talk) 19:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 19:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
• Comment Do whatever it takes, but quickly, so as to remove the ugly "‹See Tfd›" markup in the articles. For the sake of sanity of old farts like me, I'd rather have old templates kept as redirects to preserve the old habits, but I can be taught simple new tricks, so this is not a big deal (unlike the urgency!). Full disclosure: I happen to know German a little bit, so I am one of the few ones being hurt. --Викидим (talk) 21:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

  The convenient thing about the name {{langx}} is that it is only one letter different from {{lang}}. Yeah, converting {{lang-de|...}} to {{langx|de|...}} is a two-character change but most of those conversions will be done by automation. Quickly depends on the community. If this TfD gets relisted, it will be a while; if not, TfDs usually last a week or so.

  —Trappist the monk (talk) 00:24, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  Well, then I hereby beg the powers that be not to relist this TfD. IMHO the biggest issue here are the temporary stickers in the articles: since visually there will be no change (while I consider appearance of the current templates unsightly, I have no improvement proposals), I expect very little disruption. So I hereby Support the change for the sake of expediency. Викидим (talk) 03:24, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  Support and quickly, please. Let’s get the TfD tags out of the way ASAP Dan Wang (talk) 20:22, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• Question about process: What's the advantage of immediately replacing and deleting such templates, as opposed to converting them to wrappers and eventually replacing and deprecating their use? Abrupt changes can be harder for human editors to adjust to. --Paul_012 (talk) 02:17, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  I don't understand. What would the wrapper be? What would it wrap? Give a real life example please because I'm having trouble imagining where the benefit of such a process lies.

  —Trappist the monk (talk) 13:07, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  IIUC, the wrapper would be to simply change the text of {{lang-de}} from {{#invoke:lang|lang_xx_italic|code=de}} to {{#invoke:langx|de}}. I don't see how that requires any "process" at all — anyone could go do that today, if they cared enough. After that, the process of search-and-replacing all lang-de's into lang's would be tedious, but mechanical and obviously a no-op, and again I wouldn't expect anyone to care about it. In fact, it really seems to me like there's no upside or downside to any of this fiddling: the code for these lang-foo templates is already shared in a single place ({{lang}}). Quuxplusone (talk) 16:09, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, I thought about that but, like you, I couldn't see an upside ... to any of [that] fiddling. And just a point of clarification, the sharing is not with {{lang}} but with Module:Lang which supports all of the {{lang}}, {{lang-??}}, and {{langx}} templates.

  —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:25, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Having a separate template for each language is an old way of doing things; if we now have ways to simplify the process by combining everything in one place, we should do that instead of grandfathering the old way. Bearcat (talk) 15:24, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support, but a better name would probably be desirable. Also Trappist the monk, would you mind checking {{IPA}} and all the forks {{IPA-xx}} (Category:IPA language templates)? Regards and thanks for the work being done here, RodRabelo7 (talk) 06:11, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support. I don't think langx is very clear to new users, but I can use it. --Error (talk) 11:55, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support. This change makes perfect sense to me, and to be honest I never really saw a good reason to have all those separate language templates in the first place. GommehGaming101 (talk) 14:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Makes sense to me. I hadn't even heard of {{langx}} until now; I've always used the {{lang-..}} template just by copying it from existing pages. It seems rather cumbersome and duplicative compared to the universally applicable {{langx}}. I'll happily switch now that I know it exists! NLeeuw (talk) 14:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

  @NLeeuw: That's because the nominator, Trappist the monk, created it just 2 weeks ago. · • SUM1 • · (talk) 04:37, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support – I wonder if there is some way to make the tfd notification badge only show up for those of us who care about it, similar to the way we can make cs1 ref errors show up in preview, or the thing that makes unreliable sources get highlighted in red. GA-RT-22 (talk) 17:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support: Seems much simpler to maintain, extend, debug, etc. -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 20:27, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

support, much easier to manage and maintain ⇒ Zhing-Za, they/them, 20:35, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Support merging but do not delete lang-xx templates. I would turn the lang-xx templates into wrappers of langx if only to not every instance of a lang-xx template in diffs turn into a redlink. –Fredddie™ 23:34, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Template:2027 Rugby World Cup pool tables

• Template:2027 Rugby World Cup pool tables (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Completely pointless creating these years in advance. Gonnym (talk) 11:01, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

• Delete agree with nominator. Especially as participating teams have not been confirmed. LibStar (talk) 16:16, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

• Delete - years in advance, templates probably wont be used for this anyway. SimplyLouis27 (talk) 06:19, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
• Delete, mainly to react against the perceived need to create articles and other things too many years in advance. Geschichte (talk) 07:17, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:BALL. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 19:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Template:Lee Myung-bak cabinet

• Template:Lee Myung-bak cabinet (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Unused template. It was missing from Lee Myung-bak government where I subst it. Does not need to be in a stand-alone template. Gonnym (talk) 10:13, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Delete. Unused and poorly formatted. seefooddiet (talk) 23:46, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Delete: Unused and a weird template to have This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 18:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Template:Infobox television season/cleanup

• Template:Infobox television season/cleanup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

This isn't needed anymore and has been replaced with Template:Infobox television season/subst. Gonnym (talk) 10:09, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Template:DANFSsection

• Template:DANFSsection (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Unused attribution template which was created in 2008. Gonnym (talk) 10:06, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Template:Finno-Ugric Wikipedias

• Template:Finno-Ugric Wikipedias (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Unused in anyplace other than in 3 posts from 8 years ago. Subst there and delete template. Gonnym (talk) 10:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Template:CWL roster/Footer

• Template:CWL roster/Footer (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
• Template:CWL roster/Header (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
• Template:CWL roster/Wrestler (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Unused templates for a non-notable wrestling league Championship Wrestling League. Gonnym (talk) 10:02, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Template:Diplomatic missions of Luxembourg

• Template:Diplomatic missions of Luxembourg (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Only contains 2 English WP entries. Pointless for a nav box. LibStar (talk) 02:57, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

• Delete. Little to navigate between, contrary to the purpose of a navbox, and unlikely to grow in the future as articles on embassies are almost never notable. Geschichte (talk) 07:18, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Template:Diplomatic missions of Djibouti

• Template:Diplomatic missions of Djibouti (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Contains no English links. Useless as a nav box. LibStar (talk) 02:43, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Template:Diplomatic missions of Fiji

• Template:Diplomatic missions of Fiji (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

2 of the 3 English links are up for deletion. The 3rd one for Japan is actually a link to the building rather than an actual embassy article. LibStar (talk) 00:32, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Now has only 2 entries. LibStar (talk) 01:53, 30 September 2024 (UTC)