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Linking to multiple official sites and social networking sites

Alright - On the Talk:Stephanie_Adams#MySpace_and_External_Links talk page section some editors agreed to not link to official Myspace, Facebook, Bebo etc. pages of people and organizations if the organization has its own official website. The "Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid:" exception had been interpreted as one link to one official page and not multiple links to subject profiles on social networking websites - and this concept has been applied to other discussions such as Talk:Encyclopedia_Dramatica/Archive_13#ED_Facebook.2C_myspace.2C_Bebo_links

So, is this an appropriate interpretation of WP:EL's exception? Should this be coded into WP:EL? How should official social networking websites be handled? WhisperToMe (talk) 19:37, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Social networking site content is dynamic and unpredictable, and generally not appropriate for an EL, in my opinion. If a subject has an official site, it should be linked. If a subject has a myspace and a facebook, why should we try to link to both? I'm willing to be convinced that there's value, but I don't see it right now. Jclemens (talk) 19:46, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"an official page"; but that means one. Yes, if their only official page is Myspace or whatever, then that's their one; but only one. This isn't a license to create and maintain a linkfarm. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:55, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No that is not the case. Multiple official sites is both fine, and desirable. It is very common to link to a business' consumer site as well as their corporate site. Both are official, have different content and should be linked to. If an official myspace includes soemthing an official site does not, like four songs or touring information for a band, then it also should be linked. If it is just a myspace with friends and inane comments, then it should not. It's a judgment call, but one size certainly does not fit all here. The main thing though is the language definitely does not mean just one and only one all the time. 2005 (talk) 23:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No that is not the correct interpretation. There is a widespread consensus among editors that often more than one is best for articles. The current text is fine and sensible. 2005 (talk) 23:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What makes a site an "official" site? Just because the person in question uses the site doesn't mean its official at all. I thought blogs like myspace and facebook (especially if they require a user to register like facebook does) were to be avoided at all costs. Stephanie already has an official website http://www.stephanieadams.com/ which claims at the top that it's the official site for her. That alone should be linked to as her official site. Her playboy and IMDB are also acceptable external links. Facebook and Myspace are social networking sites. If she had a Wikipedia account but wasn't notable as a Wikipedian would we link to her userpage? Certainly not! Themfromspace (talk) 23:15, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
An official site is determined by the entity the article is about. If a person says "this is my only official site", then it is. If a business says "this is my official consumer site" and "this is my official corporate site", then they are. If "official-ness" is not obvious for a second link, then don't link it. If it is obvious, then link it if it has substationally different content and isn't just essentially part of the navigation of the first official site. If there are three or four official sites (in English) with a distinct focus, fine, if there are dozens of mini sites, then pick one or maybe a three or four that serve the encyclopedic needs of users. 2005 (talk) 23:21, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think User:2005 has done a good job of setting forth the principles: you can provide links to official site(s), but only if there's a good reason to. Multiple links to essentially identical websites don't meet the basic goal of the "minimum" number of links: no one wants to see a list of three dozen "official" websites for a multinational corporation. On the other hand, excluding an otherwise appropriate link simply because the person/organization/company/whatever happens to have more than one "official" website is silly. These principles are in tension, and the editors at the page have to figure out the correct balance in each individual case. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:42, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First, there's a difference between an official business site, and band's self-written official site. In one, the company is legally responsible for false information. (I was in an company which was successfully sued for Web page content.) In the other, there are few legal constraints, and the band can publish self-serving material with little basis in fact.
Second, WP:ELNO has a long list of things that are normally to be avoided. These include, non-unique resources, unverifiable research, promotion, accessibility, social sites, etc. It defeats their purpose to say effectively: it's ok to give external links to any number of band pages that require plug-ins, login, have advertisements, self-promotion, factually inaccurate and unverifiable research...just as long so long as they are titled "official". That concept is very far from encyclopedic. Piano non troppo (talk) 16:35, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Read the first sentence of ELNO... Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject... The purpose is not "defeated". We specifically, deliberately and very plainly exempt official sites from those ELNO prohibitions. We are an encyclopedia. Linking to official sites is encyclopedic and common sense. If an official site is a piece of crap, we don't care, that is how the entity wants to present itself. We don't link to third party crap sites. If a company wants to present itself to the public badly, we aren't here to say they can't. We have an article on the company, with a link to the company presenting itself however they want (except for viruses and stuff like that). 2005 (talk) 23:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is going to only concern music. MySpace has made it easy for artists, espically indy artists and bands, to create their own space to promote themselves. In the case of a band it is possible that every member of that band has their own MySpace. These can all be "official" pages. It is also very common for a manager, publicity firm or record label to also create, and maintain, an "official" website that may also be a MySpace page. The overall question here seems to be "Why link to more than one official site?" and what I have already said should be enough to explain that but in case it isn't here in only one scenario. A site maintained by the subject will allow someone to have an "inside" perspective on some issues. Some artists do daily tour blogs on their MySpace for example. An official site run by a manager, publicity firm or record label does not exist to "tell all", but rather to solely promote their client. When the "client" is no longer active for them (dropped from the label, new manger, new publicists) the site may never be updated past first postings of a bio, promo photos, record release information or tour dates. And even when the artists it active the day to day information is filtered and posted, sometimes, when it is something major. (i.e - "Due to reasons beyond their control the band has canceled the remainder of their tour"). A subject maintained "official" site would more than likely have details not available elsewhere. Soundvisions1 (talk) 15:18, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A Myspace for an indivdual band member would never be linked from the band's article. Likewise a manager's Myspace about the band would also never be linked. The guideline is clear on this, only the official site of the entity and not Myspaces simply about the entity. In other words, the Myspace pages of every Pepsi employee should never be linked from the Pepsi article. If a guitarist of a band has his own article, then his Myspace can be linked from his article, not the band's. 2005 (talk) 23:03, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
2005 said A Myspace for an indivdual band member would never be linked from the band's article - have you looked at the music related articles on Wikipedia of late? Also the comment of a manager's Myspace about the band would also never be linked is not true, unless you are misreading what I meant. An artists management can create or maintain "official" websites, this includes ones on Myspace. As my first statement on this issue was "This is going to only concern music" the Pepsi comment is not going to be discussed. Soundvisions1 (talk) 02:23, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Would never be linked if following the guideline. Obviously there are tons of articles with spammy or otherwise inappropriate links. Then you mixed up two concepts: if a Myspace is an official one for a band, obviously it makes no difference who made it, a manager or somebody teenage nephew. Also, the guideline applies equally for Pepsi and bands. there is no difference whatsoever. 2005 (talk) 03:45, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
User:2005 is basically right: if the subject of the article is an organization, then you wouldn't normally consider a website by one individual person to be the "official" organizational website, and WP:EL authorizes multiple official websites only when they're the official websites for the subject of the article. For example, the CEO of Marriott Hotel has a blog, and he discusses the business in his blog, but that still shouldn't be considered an official website for the company for our purposes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It makes a great deal of difference who writes an official site. Some are legally responsible for their statements, some are not. Some have professional reputations to maintain that would be damaged by misstatements, others do not. Some sites have have some form of feedback or peer review, others are slick marketing sites where public feedback is impossible, (there may not even be a "Contact Us" button). I.e., some official sites have a legal responsibility to tell the truth, others are run by those who can be expected to conceal, equivocate, lie, and self-aggrandize. Insider gossip about the latest recording sessions or concert dates belongs on a fan site, not in an encyclopedia. We give bands the benefit of the doubt for one external link -- we wave the rules -- but that can't be done indefinitely. That doesn't open the door to linking to more than one external official site. Every artist thinks everything about their career is important. They cannot be relied on to be the gatekeepers of verifiable fact, and certainly their marketing agents cannot be. One official link suffices, except perhaps in exceptional situations such as the band changing name or the band having a dispute with the official page owners. Otherwise, we will be providing a platform for commericalism, self-promotion and unverifiable information. Piano non troppo (talk) 19:27, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
None of that makes the slightest bit of difference. Official sites can have inaccurate, promotional, one-sided, delusional opinion whatever. An official site still should be linked. 2005 (talk) 23:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just my two cents thrown into this discussion, if that's alright. One site can (and probably should) be linked to the External Links, if appropriate to the page. I have no problem with this idea. However, linking to an official site does not give license to link to multiple "official" sites. We need to remember that Wikipedia is not about self-aggrandizement or advertising. Nor is it about cultivating a linkfarm, as Orange Mike already correctly mentioned. These are well-established, time-honored policies that will not be changing any time soon. J Readings (talk) 06:57, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We've answered this question a dozen times. YES, multiple links to different official websites are permitted under limited circumstances. I've added a short description of the advice that we keep giving (over and over and over) on this page. It's a footnote, mostly because I don't want to encourage extra links, but also because I don't want to clutter up ELYES with this description. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Jossi was right to revert WhatamIdoing's edit. There's no consensus for adding multiple links to different "official" websites. Indeed, the opposite seems to be the case...and rightfully so. Sorry, but it's true. J Readings (talk) 03:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense. Obviously there is very strong consensus that multiple official sites can be used. The guideline now allows this. WhatamIdoing"s text was more limiting than the current text. So let's not try and turn this into something ludicrous. Thousands of articles can and should have multiple official sites linked. That's the consensus. So sorry, you are running against an enormous consensus to the contrary. If you want to change that, good luck. 2005 (talk) 03:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry right back at you. And if you'd like further participation from those outside of the small choir of 2 or 3 people who seem to agree with you, then it probably makes sense to tone down the rhetoric and use of words like "nonsense" and "ludicrous." It makes little sense to talk to other people like that and expect participation and consensus-building. J Readings (talk) 09:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You made a condescending statement that is false on its face. Next time, tone down your rhetoric before coming to a discussion where you are both unfamiliar with discussions, and intend to ignore common practice. A thought out stating of your position is all that is needed. 2005 (talk) 12:07, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me, but the only person being condescending here is unfortunately you. I was being quite polite in offering an opinion (unless of course you now choose to continue reading my thoughts for me in bad faith -- please stop that -- and assuming what I have and have not read -- stop that too, please). Simply disagreeing with a comment does not give you license to be rude, 2005. Regards, J Readings (talk) 12:18, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You could have just said you were sorry for making the dismissive comment. Please keep your comments on only the topic please. 2005 (talk) 12:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would advise you to do the same, 2005. And once again, I did not make a "dismissive" comment. Simply a statement of fact: Jossi is correct in that there is no current consensus for any edits. Attacking me personally is unnecessary. Regards, J Readings (talk) 12:36, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I did not attack you personally. Please stop this. You made a false statement that I stated was nonsense. My opinion of your statement, not you. I am allowed to have my opinions, even if you don't like them. Now please do not persist in this personal junk. 2005 (talk) 12:48, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Now it's "personal junk" on top of "nonsense." The hyperbole does not end. Unbelievable. J Readings (talk) 12:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, what I added was taken directly from this talk page, which is where consensus is measured. See for example the conversations here, here, and here, all of which explicitly address this issue and all of which conclude that under some circumstances, the inclusion of more than one (non-redundant, English language, official) website is clearly appropriate. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WhatamIdoing, thanks for the links. I have read these conversations carefully. You are -- let me be generous here -- simply mistaken if you think these dialogues offer a "clear" conclusion of consensus in favor of multiple "official" sites being linked. First, in this dialogue alone (to say nothing of the others where multiple editors offer their doubts and objections, but don't respond further, implying that they are neither convinced nor satisfied), we have Themfromspace and Orange Mike stating that they don't think Myspace and other social networking sites should be linked if there is already an official site. We have Piano non troppo stating that social networking sites are not in the same league as an "official" corporate sites and should be avoided. We have Jossi reverting your edits because he doesn't see consensus on this talk page (implying that he is not convinced yet either). Then there are 4 or 5 other editors (myself included) on the original Stephanie Adams page who agree that "an official page" is sufficient. So, with all due respect, it's difficult to claim that there is somehow a consensus when I keep reading a lot of replies or postings from 3 editors stating otherwise. I don't mean any of this as an insult. I'm simply stating a fact. Consensus does not mean a handful of editors repeating their personal preferences. J Readings (talk) 09:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The consensus of discussion, and the editing of thousands of articles plainly establishes that multiple official sites make sense when they are appropriate. You can't just ignore that. Your quoting the opinions of other editors in regards to opposing a specific second (or third) official site is not addressing the issue. Those individuals could be right that in the specific circumstances a second or third official site is not the best choice. The guideline leaves open the possibility that in some cases more than one makes sense; in other cases, only one makes sense. Sometimes people disagree where the line should be drawn, but the overwhelming consensus is very clear: multiple official sites are fine sometimes, but people disagree how often "sometimes" should be. The guideline is thus vague because of divergent views on where to draw the line. 2005 (talk) 12:07, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Once again

I've decided to start this discussion over, for (I hope) the last time. There are, in limited instances, times when linking to more than one official website is perfectly appropriate. Here are some examples:

  1. When the organization uses separate websites for separate purposes. See for example Wal-Mart: This Good Article lists three official websites: One where you can buy stuff, one for the corporate headquarters, and one for their public relations division. Does anyone think that just one of these would be sufficient? If we arbitrarily limited this article to a single external link, do you think we would all agree on which one to include?
  2. When the organization is a subsidiary. See for example The Economist and National Westminster Bank. These Good Articles link to both the specific publication and the specific bank websites, and also to the corporate entity that owns them. Does anyone think that it is always right to exclude one or the other official website? Which would you exclude?
  3. When the organization is enormous. See for example European Union. This Good Article links to half a dozen official EU entities. Do you think that linking to the most important of the EU's entities is wrong? (Note that "unnecessary" is different from "wrong".)
  4. When the person has different roles. See for example most incumbent politicians' pages. Is the official website the biography on the government website, or is the official website the one run by their re-election campaign? Which of the two official websites would you choose at the Featured Article Barack Obama#Official_sites?

I could probably go on, but I think you get the picture here.

This has, as I note above, been addressed repeatedly on this page, and always with the same outcome. There are situations in which arbitrarily limiting the number of links to official websites to one would be silly. What we want to do is to avoid legislating silliness (i.e., one official website no matter what reality looks like) while also avoiding abuse (e.g., two dozen links to domain names registered by the company that all happen to redirect back to the same actual website).

If you are still fully convinced that Wikipedia would be harmed by having two or three "official" websites linked at any or all of the articles I give as examples above (and any others that we come up with during this discussion), then please explain, in appropriate detail, what your objections are to each and every one of them. Note that I've numbered them for your convenience in picking apart these (trivially located and easily supplemented) examples. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:36, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki should allow important, valid, verifiable, unbiased information, even if it's from a cereal box. It's obvious that those contributing to this discussion have given sincere thought to their own processes of evaluation. A cereal box, in special circumstances, may have essential information. But something is missing, and that is what use that the general editing public will make of Wiki guidelines that are too blurred, too specialized. And what use they will make of them without them being aware of the underlying Wiki context.
Not long ago, two editors challenged my removing a MySpace link. They came here to resolve the dispute, and what they were told (in their perception) was that multiple external links to official sites are just fine. One editor to the article in question was an anonymous IP, who had only made modifications to one rock group article. The other had a dozen or so Wiki changes, largely additions to articles about popular culture. What they both came away with was an impression that MySpace external links, even multiple external links, are perfectly acceptable, that the guidelines really aren't hard-and-fast, and that they should do whatever they feel is appropriate. This isn't a constructive message to send novice editors, because many aren't looking for "Intro to Wiki Source Guidelines 101", they simply want to add their opinions, and leave. Piano non troppo (talk) 09:54, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that two inexperienced editors were confused is no excuse for demanding that multiple official sites never be allowed. Which "official" site would you delete at Barack Obama? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:44, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia has some screwy ideas, one of which is editors can ignore guidelines if they want to. In fact, "guidelines really aren't hard-and-fast" and editors can "do whatever they feel is appropriate". Personally I think that's just no way to run a railroad, but that is the policy here. At the same time, you want rigid guidelines that spell things out in an uncompromising way, while editor Jossi removed some text because it was too specific, too creepy. This just illustrates that different editors have different opinions on how to do things. Guidelines are not here to force 40% of the editors to do things how 44% of the other editors want them to. Guidelines are not here to ram one way of doing things down other people's throats. They are here to give a clear indication of the broadest consensus of the encyclopedia, which in this case is clearly that official sites are different than other sites, and that in some cases more than one official site makes sense, and that in some cases only one official site makes sense, and in some cases more than one but not all oficial sites should be linked. Personally I hate Myspace, but thousands of editors think official myspaces make good links, while virtually all other myspace pages do not. One more link is nothing to burst into flames over. 2005 (talk) 22:49, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This may be a bit of a project, but it would be a great idea to have Wiki guideline pages that were Simple English, and which focused on a few guidelines -- rather than perplexing new, or marginally interested, or maliciously motivated editors with a bewildering nest of guidelines and qualifications. (Doesn't it sometimes take several minutes to find a guideline that you're sure exists, on a Wiki page you're sure you've bookmarked?) Unnecessary external links are often more of a bother, as Editor 2005 suggests, than anything. But the challenge facing new editors is almost insuperable, for example, regarding how to create a good copyright justification for an image. Someone coming just to add images, quotes and external links to their favorite rock band may be in for a hard time.
A factor that is bothering about the MySpace links is that the sites may well contain material violating copyright. There are plenty of people who don't understand basic copyright laws, others who do, but disagree with the laws, and still others who simply don't care whether they're breaking the law. But as one sees from WP:LINKVIO ("Linking to copyrighted works"), Wiki editors simply can't turn a blind eye to copyright abuse on external links. Piano non troppo (talk) 11:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and this again is why Myspace links are normally not permitted by the guideline. However, an official band myspace should not be violating their own copyright, and as the guideline says, the restrictions on linking section even trumps the official sites aspect, meaning if an official myspace violates someone else's copyright, it can't be linked. 2005 (talk) 11:46, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Final call

It appears that none of the editors here have any actual desire to ban every single instance of multiple official websites. Can we now go back and add that explanatory (and appropriately restrictive) text to the guideline again? The proposed footnote was:

If the organization, person or other entity has more than one official website (for example, a corporate website and a consumer website), then more than one website may be linked. In this instance, all selected links must meet all of the following criteria:

  • The websites must not be redundant in content.
  • The smallest reasonable number of websites is linked.
  • The selected websites must not prominently link to each other.
  • The websites must be in English.

This question has been asked here repeatedly, and IMO it is appropriate to provide this advice without making each individual editor dig through the archives or asking the question again. And for all those editors that are still fixated on lousy MySpace webpages for garage bands, please note that this is not the only possibly instance for multiple "official" websites. In fact, since many minor bands only have a MySpace-type website, and their articles are generally low-traffic, the existence of such websites is probably the least important instance. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:47, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think The selected websites must not prominently link to each other is good. It's okay if the sites link to each other, but they shouldn't be something like this where at the top of the page the basic navigation of each site in the family of sites is the same. I don't have a great wording suggestion off the top of my head though... so unless someone can word a line that addresses this I'd just drop that sentence. 2005 (talk) 07:35, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the instance that I think we all want to avoid is the official website that is basically a soft-redirect to the other official website ("See our new website at www.slightlydifferenturl.com!"). I'd be happy to hear anyone's ideas for wording this.
I'd also wondered whether we should specifically mention that WP:ELNEVER still applies. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:27, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mark of the Year is at WP:FLC now. It has multiple links to YouTube videos of the different marks (spectacular catches in Australian Football League games). The question is whether these links are allowed, but their copyrtight status is unclear. Could someone who knows more about Australian copyright please take a look at the article and provide feedback on the video links at Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Mark of the Year? Thanks in advance, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:50, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

External links don't go in the body of an article. These are references or nothing at all, so you should ask at WP:V or WP:RS. 2005 (talk) 03:55, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks, I will ask there. I am a reviewer, not the main author. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:21, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An issue has arisen about External Links that are already used as references. The article in question is University of Chester, where many more External Links than are currently present used to be present, and were re-inserted by an editor on two occasions. I asked about a relevant project's position on WT:UNI#Adding external links to sites already used in references, but this seems to have sperked off some disagreement about the relevant parts of WP:EL. It would help if some input by editors of good experience with dealing with the content of WP:EL could be made there.

My reading of the guidelines is that if an external link has already been used as a reference, there is no need to include it in the External Links section of the article, and, indeed, the guidelines suggest that one should avoid this. In the main external link in question, the website has been used in a number of refereneces (to different subpages) and it also appears as the official website of the institution in the InfoBox. It can easily also be added as a reference to its main page in the body of the article if this would help resolve the matter. The editor who argues in favour of the external links in the University of Chester article is arguing that WP:IAR allows him to re-add the links, and that wikipedia is being stupid since "Any rule that states that an external links section should not contain an external link to whatever the article is about is inherently stupid." (see discussion on User talk:Ddstretch##University of Chester.) Many thanks.  DDStretch  (talk) 14:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In general links should not be duplicated. But if it is the official site it should be. The guideline mandates official sites should be linked, regardless of restraints that apply to other non-official links. 2005 (talk) 23:05, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This issue arose in Humane Society of the United States. The official website is cited and linked in the references section 18 times and linked directly from the infobox. I can't for the life of me see the purpose of linking to it a twentieth time in an EL section but someone else does so some wider discussion would be nice. Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 15:40, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

2005 is correct above. Whether a site is used as a reference is really not directly relevant to whether it should be included in the External links section. The inclusion of the link in an infobox also does not necessarily meant the link should not be included in the EL section. Many users (myself included) pretty much ignore the infobox most of the time. If I'm looking for a link to the website of an article's subject, the first place I look is in the External links section. The very last thing I'd want to do is comb through the list of references to identify the official site. So my opinion is that a little redundancy is helpful (so long as the EL section otherwise hews to this guideline). older ≠ wiser 15:57, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I get what you are saying but am then confused by the guideline where it states in section 7.2 references & citations
"Sites that have been used as sources in the creation of an article should be cited in the article, and linked as references, either in-line or in a references section. Links to these source sites are not "external links" for the purposes of this guideline, and should not be placed in an external links section."
Am I misreading this passage or does the guideline contradict itself? Also, my common sense says 19 links to the same website should be enough and readers are not better served by adding a 20th. L0b0t (talk) 17:18, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What are you thinking is a contradiction? I would never add a 20th link if it was not the official site, but the official site should lead the external links section, if there is one. As noted by the guideline, official sites are different than others. 2005 (talk) 22:27, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also, in a quick search through the (poorly organized) references, none of them appear to be links to (just) www.hsus.org. They all go to specific pages on the website. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:54, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This appears to have been lost in a move, with no specific discussion that I have found:

All items used as sources in the article must be listed in the "Notes" or "References" sections, and are usually not included in "Further reading" or "External links". However, if an item used as a reference covers the topic beyond the scope of the article, and has significant usefulness beyond verification of the article, you may want to include it here as well. This also makes it easier for users to identify all the major recommended resources on a topic. The Wikipedia guideline for external links that are not used as sources can be found in Wikipedia:External links.

The above would seem to run contrary to WP:EL#References and citation and also to what is now WP:FURTHER. PSWG1920 (talk) 22:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not reading it as contradictory, but rather just unclear. I think WP:EL#References and citation is just trying to make the distinction between what are considered external links and what are links to sources. --Ronz (talk) 22:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps so. Unless someone can point to where the removal of the above wording was discussed previously, it should probably be considered now. As far as I can tell it was simply lost in the move of WP:FURTHER from one guideline to another. PSWG1920 (talk) 22:35, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't lost in a move. It was deleted as redundant. It is also a content fork. The Citing Sources guideline should only include text (if any) about external links that comes from this guideline. Whatever that guideline (or any other guideline) said about the external links section is irrelevant. 2005 (talk) 23:20, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

EL to sites requiring registration

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but I did spend some time searching the archives without finding an answer.

The article Rebreather had an external link to a forum on rebreathers (actually it pointed to the domain, but that's not the issue). The forum allows you to view a few pages before requiring registration. The content of the forum seems to meet ELYES.4 and ELMAYBE.4 (from what I've been able to see) and looks like it would add value in being an external link. Nevertheless, although it doesn't require immediate registration, it forces you into it after a while. Now, while I suspect that it fails ELNO.6 so shouldn't be included, I would appreciate other opinions on the suitability of such links (i.e. free, but "delayed-forced" registration). Thanks in advance for any guidance. --RexxS (talk) 02:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Forums are generally not allowed, elno 10. A membership forum seems very unlikely to ever be linked if it isn't an offical site. That's tw huge strikes against it. 2005 (talk) 02:50, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Adding relevant stv interviews

I made an external link from the Daniel O'Donnell page to an article and video interview which we created. The interview is fairly broad, but includes Daniel's account of his early days in Glasgow.

The link was removed (by a bot, i believe). How do I put this and similar articles up for linking? Should we run them past a forum first?Freshnews (talk) 14:08, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, technically, editors aren't supposed to add links to their own websites/other works. So what you should do it leave a note on the discussion page of the specific article, and explain why you think this would be a great link, and encourage someone else to add it for you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

References and ELs with "[" or "]" in title

User Zombie433 added a link to the article Benedikt Höwedes, but it doesn't work properly because the link has "[" and "]" in it. I have also expierienced this when adding a reference to Toni Kroos (see reference #4). Is there a way to make these links work? Thanks in advance. Hubschrauber729 (talk) 19:19, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The square brackets need to be URL encoded, so that [ is %5B and ] is %5D. --Para (talk) 19:34, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think you can encase the "[" and "]" section in <nowiki></nowiki> tags, which should cause the text within the nowiki tags to be formatted as written... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:35, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I used the %5B and %5D instead of the brackets and it works fine now. Thanks for the quick responses! Hubschrauber729 (talk) 23:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing discussion from WT:Layout

We've had some relevant discussions at WT:Layout#Proposal concerning Wikimedia site links; people are welcome to copy arguments over here, or start out fresh. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 16:55, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reversion

I notice that there was a reversion of WAID's addition on Dec 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:External_links&diff=255339240&oldid=255337829). I don't see anything in the discussion that suggests that people didn't want any part of that, although some were put off by the idea of having more than one link if one of the links was to a social networking site. Would that be a sufficient tweak to make everyone happy? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:12, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I that that if you look at #Final call above, that there's no real objection to restoring it as it stood. There may be a few times when linking to a second 'official' website that happens to be hosted by a social networking service is in the best interest of the encyclopedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:25, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I can support your suggested wording, but if we still get friction, I'd like to point out that anyone who owns a myspace page could prominently display a link to the other site we're thinking of including if they want to, and we could give a description at the EL link, "crazygoodband's official myspace page, including a link to meancorporateoverlords". Then the second link becomes their problem rather than ours. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:10, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And even though it's redundant, answering a question from above, I do think we should link to the ELNEVER section just to remind people that this isn't "anything goes". - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:12, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_Poetry#http:.2F.2Fwww.shmoop.com.2F

I have copied the following discussion here on the advice of User:Bonadea. Please comment; thanks! Lithoderm 20:39, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.shmoop.com/

I know that numerous individual conversations have take place regarding "Shmoop", both on user talk pages and on article talk pages (see Talk:Jane Eyre#New External Link and Talk:Mending Wall#Shmoop link). Shmoop claims that it is for "High-schoolers raised in the IRC age", or something to that effect. As a recent high school graduate, I despise cloying condescension, which is exactly how Shmoop feels: one of the reason that WP is great is that we don't dumb things down- we assume that people come here to learn. Each article on Shmoop consists of a summary of the material (which is usually not as comprehensive as the wikipedia version-- definitely not the "further research" that ELs are intended to provide) and then, the main basis of my objection, the "Why should I care?" section. Of course, my objection is mainly on policy grounds-- they do not add anything to the content of the article, and the link-adders are not here to add anything to the encyclopedia other than shmoop links. Whatever one's assessment of Shmoop may be, their stereotype of people of my age group is an agenda, and they are here to push it- nothing more. The main point is that external links are there to enhance content and provide scholarly context-- not to dumb it down. I would like to obtain consensus one way or the other in this thread. One point in User:Barriodude's favor is that he has not re-added the links without discussion. I leave you with some excerpts from Shmoop's analysis[1] of London, 1802:




Lithoderm 16:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm... well, I'm not sure this project is the spot to build a Wikipedia-wide consensus. I'm not sure where to go on something like that, but I'm sure there's a spot. Anyone know better? --Midnightdreary (talk) 17:03, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I noticed a link to this being added to the Ode on a Grecian Urn article, but I am not really sure how we can decide on something like this and didn't feel compelled to take it off because it was under external links and was not obvious. As a matter of policy, allowing these links to stay would only open the door to other age-based sites putting their link underneath, and I can only imagine that you would end up with a tedious discussion about making sure all age groups are represented. If the reader comes to wp, I can only imagine they do it to get an encyclopedia article and not an age-appropriate reader guide, but I also fail to see how our project has much of a say in the matter as a whole even if we agree to systematically remove the links from articles without clear policy to back those actions up. Mrathel (talk) 18:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think Lithoderm is absolutely right about shmoop.com, but a WP-wide consensus is probably best discussed in Wikipedia talk:External links. (The site appears to be very US-centric which means that adding links to it would be problematic with regard to WP:GLOBAL. That's in addition to the points brought up above, of course.) --Bonadea (talk) 19:07, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

End of copied discussion--Lithoderm 20:44, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For reference, here's the link summary of where it's currently used:

--- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There were many more, but I reverted them... Lithoderm 21:22, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the EL from To Kill a Mockingbird primarily because it offers no more insight and is written no better than what is already in the article. In fact, I'm sure it is trying to write for a specific audience of high schoolers forced to read material they find abysmally insipid, but the style in which the review is written for TKaM is informal to the extent it borders on contempt for the novel. The setting is finalist for the Most Boring Town in America, contrary to reviews and criticism that puts emphasis on the nature of the setting. It brushes over the characters' opinions of Atticus: The kids feel kind of dissatisfied with boring old Dad, who can’t do any of the cool things (like playing football or training ninjas) that the other fathers do. Training ninjas? Seriously? I hope not. --Moni3 (talk) 21:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The links that are being spammed should just be removed on sight. WP:WPSPAM would be the place for how to deal with the numerous link drops that add nothing to articles. In general these seem like lame links so they should be removed, but in abstract a link for a page might not be pathetic and could be reviewed on a case by case basis... but when someone is just driving by and dropping links in an article, just remove them immediately. 2005 (talk) 23:10, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely. Clear spam. The editor in question admits working for the company, and, as far as I can tell, every single last edit made by the person is either spam or a clear WP:COI-violation, or both. His only edits that weren't adding external links to his site were writing about the CEO of his/her company. DreamGuy (talk) 23:40, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, All. Thank you for the healthy and civil discussion. We love hearing feedback from people who are as passionate about these subjects as we are. Also, note that we constantly re-edit our content. Our editorial team will review all of your feedback on specific passages and we invite you to keep the feedback coming. Oh, and caveat emptor - I don't write for Shmoop, I work on partnerships and community management... so any typos in the following shouldn't reflect on the quality of Shmoop's writing. :-)

I'd like to address a number of points that you've raised.

First, some Background about Shmoop:

  • Shmoop is created by people who love these subjects.
  • Most of our writers are Ph.D. and Masters students from Stanford and Berkeley.
  • Many of those writers (including the author of our TKaM module) teach these topics to undergrads at Stanford and Berkeley. Some of our writers have taught at the high school level for decades.
  • Shmoop has a panel of educators who advise us on curriculum and product development (all are Google Certified Teachers, many are Apple Distinguished Educators, one started the Google for Education program, one is on the board of NCTE - National Council of Teachers of English)
  • Shmoop's mission is to make learning fun and relevant for students in the digital age. We are much different from SparkNotes, which is reductive, focuses on summaries more than analysis, and discourages original thought. We're trying to show students the passion and relevance in these topics. So, yes, we use a very conversational tone to make these ideas as accessible as possible to students.
  • Shmoop offers schools and teachers free supplementary learning materials that take advantage of the Web. In an era of shrinking school budgets and crazily expensive textbooks, we think this is a worthy cause.
  • WP readers who visit Shmoop spend over 7 minutes on our site, on average. This data suggests suggest that this is a relevant and valued EL.

1. The last two commentors on this thread didn't quite get the full story. I posted links (months ago) and learned about the COI issues. Point taken. I backed off entirely. A number of our fans (teachers and librarians with no connection to our company) took it upon themselves to add the links that have popped up over the last month. No COI.

2. lithoderm stated that his primary objection is to Shmoop's "Why Should I Care?" section. Ironically, earlier today Deborah J. Stipek, the Dean of the Stanford School of Education said that "Why Should I Care?" is her favorite section of our content, because we help students see how literature and history are relevant - inspiring, even - to their daily lives. "Why Should I Care?" is, admittedly, lighter fare than our meatier analysis of themes, quotes, literary devices, plot structures, etc. This "appetizer" helps grab students' interest. We want to help students connect to and love these topics. The vast majority of feedback on "Why Should I Care?" (from students, teachers, and librarians) is positive. See quotes below

3. lithoderm raises a completely fair question: "what does Shmoop add to the WP article?" We have between 75-125 pages (if in a Word doc) worth of content for our modules. In addition to summaries, theme analysis, character analysis, quote analysis, we cover some areas generally not covered in the WP article. We go deep into plot analysis (is it a Hero Myth? If so, how do the stages of Hero Myth map to the plot? How would you break down this plot as a 3-Act play, like they do in film school?). We go into detail on character timelines and "character clues" (tools of characterization tools, e.g. speaking style, style of dress, interesting traits, etc.) We have a trivia section ("brain snacks"). We have a timeline of dates and key events in our history modules. We have a "Best of the Web" section (which is more robust in our history modules) that helps students and teachers find video, audio, photos, great websites, movies, and historical documents. We have Study Questions in our lit and poetry modules that pose 30+ tough questions, broken down by theme (some teachers have told us they use these to spur class discussion and a few have even assigned one of our questions as an essay topic). So, there's quite a bit of analysis and information in our modules (by the sheer length, alone) that is not covered in a WP article.

4. I've checked up on a number of our fans' edits... they added quite a bit of content to WP along with their Shmoop edits. They often added other ELs that they lifted from Shmoop's "Best of the Web" section. So, we've lent our own content and research to the betterment of WP. I'll also let you in on some as-of-yet-unannounced info... Shmoop will make a portion of its content available under Creative Commons licenses.

5. A number of lithoderm's reverts were based on Shmoop being "non-encyclopedic." Is there a definition of "non-encyclopedic" on WP and is this an actual requirement for an EL? If so, I'd like to understand the standard so we can strive to satisfy the requirement. Does SparkNotes meet this requirement?

6. Is Shmoop age specific? Happily, I can say "no." Teachers use Shmoop to enhance their lesson plans, find multimedia to present in class, and to insprire topics for class discussion and essays. We hear from adults in Book Clubs who use Shmoop Study Questions and theme analysis to spur discussion. We cover titles in literature ranging in difficulty from The Call of the Wild to French existentialism. We receive positive feedback from students well into their undergraduate years.

7. The tone of our writing. I totally understand that it may not be for everyone and I can assure you that our editorial team values the feedback. Our goal is to make these topics come to life and feel relevant to students. In our survey of Shmoop users, 91% said that they like the tone of our writing. 66% said that they "completely agree" with that statement. I've included a number of quotes from teachers and students below. Many of them specifically mention that they like the tone of our writing. Our writing philosophy is: package smart and complex ideas in a fun and accessible style.

Thanks again (and sorry for the missive... obviously, I'm passionate about making our case). I welcome more feedback (including emails to me - brady at shmoop).

Quotes from teachers, librarians, and students who use Shmoop.








Barriodude (talk) 02:12, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The links I just removed were very poor -- short/low content and unsigned. In general such pages would never be appropriate for external links. But this is not really the place to talk about your website. We have a guideline for external links that is up to editors to interpret. In general your website clearly fails the criteria for external links, but in some cases it might qualify. That's all that can be really said about that without going through a zillion pages individually. 2005 (talk) 02:28, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I don't understand your comment. Which links? The last edit in your history was May 2008. And I have a hard time believing that the content is short (Shmoop has 75-125 Word doc pages worth of content on each module). Thanks Barriodude (talk) 02:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What are you talking about? I have thirty edits today alone. Anyway, the content is anonymous. The brevity, triteness and non-encyclopedicness is just piling on. You should look for another way to promote your website. 2005 (talk) 02:46, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can someone give me a summary of what the question is here? It's too much. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:14, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the question is "Are links to shmoop.com likely to be generally acceptable on Wikipedia?" The question of "Should the owner/employee/agent of a particular website be spamming their links everywhere?" is already settled. (The answer is "No!" for anyone that missed it.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for any repetition; edit conflict. Whether Shmoop links should be included in Wikipedia articles; whether they should be banned outright or examined on a case to case basis- whether User:Barriodude's actions constitute a conflict of interest, etc, etc. I would remind you of the first criteria on WP:ELNO: "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article." Lithoderm 03:51, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I posted a couple of the now-controversial Shmoop links awhile back, one in Tenskwatawa and another I don't remember where. I added those links because I thought the two Shmoop pages I linked to -- one on Tecumseh & Tenskwatawa and another on the US & the Holocaust -- were quite rich substantively and added a useful resource for Wiki users, with quality content and analysis they wouldn't get either in the Wiki entry itself or on another external link. In fact, it was the desire to share those Shmoop pages that actually made me want to stop being only a passive Wikipedia user and edit a page for the first time. I don't know anything about the poetry pages that started this dustup, but I certainly didn't see anything objectionable in the tone or content of the Shmoop pages I linked to. So I sort of object to someone just going through all of Wikipedia and universally erasing anything and everything having to do with that website without even reading it. That said, I didn't want to just revert the links back in because I am a newbie here and it seems there are other issues going on here that I don't totally follow. But long story short, I'm not sure that it's fair at all to make the blanket assumption that everything on Shmoop is garbage and anyone who linked to anything on the site is a spammer. I think Wikipedia was made better by my links and I'd think it would be better to judge all these Shmoop links on a case-by-case basis rather than just wiping them all clean off Wikipedia. Nate5446 (talk) 06:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Read the above. Don't just make up stuff. Links that aren't spammed are judged on a case by case basis. External links should follow this guideline. We aren't here to decide about every page on that website, and we don't have exhaustive conversations about every one of the tens of thousands of websites that have links here. In general though, we desire links to expert content, and Schmoop has anonymous articles, which means they don't meet the criteria of this guideline. 2005 (talk) 06:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What are you accusing me of making up exactly? Why are you attacking me? My apologies if the links I added were not acceptable, although -- as I said -- I think they were of better quality than several of the links already on those pages. Are you saying that there is a blanket rule that no external links should ever be made to any site with unsigned articles? If so, my apologies for breaking that rule; I didn't know it existed because such links seem relatively common in actual usage. Nate5446 (talk) 06:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Attacking you? What does this even have to do with you? This is the talk page for the external links guideline. And yes, anonymous articles seldom merit links. 2005 (talk) 08:18, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a written guideline stating that EL should (or must) have a byline? I haven't seen one. Shmoop is written by Stanford and Berkeley Ph.D. and Masters students. It's credible. If byline is a requirement for EL, I could easily find you thousands of EL that don't meet this standard. Barriodude (talk) 19:51, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't read most of the above, so have missed most of the points made on both sides of this discussion. But, on the most recent comment made ... be aware that other stuff exists is generally not viewed as a viable argument on Wikipedia. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:57, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Point taken. I still don't see a guideline stating that content on EL sites must have a byline. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Barriodude (talk • contribs) 20:02, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Read WP:EL, that is this guideline. You can't be a "recognized expert" when anonymous. 2005 (talk) 23:30, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so I'll try to recap a bit, since the above conversation is so lengthy. I think I've addressed every question/criticism that has come up. I'm happy to continue the conversation and I encourage more feedback. Here's a summary:

  • Shmoop users posted Shmoop links in EL on many WP articles over the past month
  • Many of those edits included other edits to the articles (in a number of cases, they copied content from Shmoop to enhance the WP article)
  • No COI (links that I posted months ago were removed)
  • lithoderm and 2005 reverted all of those 60+ links over a 2 day period
  • I asked our users to hold off on any reverts or edit warring so we could have a civil discussion here.
  • Shmoop articles have 75-125 pages worth of analysis and information. Clearly, they add some info beyond what is available in the WP article. (Shmoop is written by Stanford and Berkeley Ph.D. and Masters students)
  • On average, users from WP who visited Shmoop spent >7 minutes on our site reading our content. This data suggests that WP readers found this EL very useful.

Barriodude (talk) 20:18, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The number of pages, or the authors of the articles, are of secondary importance if the content of the articles isn't relevant or valuable. I admit that I haven't spent more than 45 minutes or so browsing the site, but I failed to find anything that added relevant information to the Wikipedia articles the site was linked from. The condescending language in almost every Shmoop.com article I looked at was quite flagrant. PhD students are not guaranteed to produce good content - I know this for a fact, being one myself.
In addition, there is a very heavy US slant to all the Shmoop.com articles. This is at best problematic; at worst it adds bias to the Wikipedia articles. --Bonadea (talk) 20:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a thought. Suggest a few WP articles that used to have Shmoop links. I'll have our writers offer up their opinions on new/original info in our coverage that go beyond the WP articles. It would be painful for all involved to do this on a case-by-case basis, but it would be a good test, since this seems to be the key question regarding Shmoop. Also, note that Shmoop offers a free essay outline tool for all of our literature articles. That tool is unique to Shmoop and certainly a valuable and relevant resource that is not available on WP or other sites. Thanks. Barriodude (talk) 21:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, we are not here to help you promote your website. Read the guideline. If you want to hope other editors add links from the Wikipedia to your site, then follow the guideline. But don't add such links yourself. The bottom line though is the type of site you have built does not have expert written, verifiable content. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not the type of thing that is a link for an encyclopedia. 2005 (talk) 23:30, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This will hopefully be my final statement regarding Shmoop. A: It does not matter what your testimonials have been, or how many Shmoop users want these links on Wikipedia- Wikipedia is not a democracy. B. Reliable, established sources. As you admit, Shmoop is fairly new. Your very offer to change the content shows that it is not stable, and its tone is far from scholarly. So Shmoop is new, and its content can fluctuate- that leads us to C. Spam. You may not be trying to sell something, but obviously you believe your project has value, and if we take your word for it, other people do too. Regardless, Wikipedia is not the place to spread the word about your new project. Whether you, your colleagues, or readers add links to Shmoop, it still constitutes a conflict of interest because they were inherently biased toward Shmoop- they made up their mind to add the link before even looking at the Wikipedia article; obviously there was no thought as to whether it enhanced Wikipedia content- leave that to editors who do things other than add external links to a single organization. Still, about your promise to add further material to Shmoop- what I interpret "Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article" is a related topic which may not be encyclopedic, but is still of scholarly interest- CH'AN BUDDHISM AND THE PROPHETIC POEMS OF WILLIAM BLAKE, for instance, is linked from William Blake. Because the apparent mission of Shmoop is to create a textbook/study guide for a targeted audience, and in Shmoop's view the teenaged audience requires a simplification of the material, you limit the scope of scholarly inquiry in an attempt to connect with your audience. This is done instead of providing an unorthodox scholarly perspective that would broaden the interested reader's understanding of the topic. And about your audience, D. Wikipedia is not a textbook. We go out of our way to present all scholarly views on a topic of note; we do not go out of our way to accommodate our readership through simplification and condescension, which is the main purpose for adding the Shmoop links. In sum, there is no reason to include Shmoop links, nor will there be in the future, especially when the only editors who are eager to add them are outside entities or edit solely to link to Shmoop. As I said, I hope that this is my last statement on this topic, as I hope to go back to contributing actual content. I will remove any Shmoop links that I see added to William Blake related articles; wiki-wide, I'll let others decide... Lithoderm 23:32, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I've seen worse. Actually, I can say more than that -- I fact-checked one or two of their articles about things i am very familiar with, and also asked a genuine academic expert to review one of the articles in her subject. Despite the deliberately immature writing, this is in my opinion a highly respectable site indeed. In my opinion as a librarian, i would recommend it to anyone at the high school level, and possibly beginning college level also. After giving the appropriate cautions about copying and citing; it compares pretty well when measured against some conventional sources of this sort--except for two things: first, almost nothing is actually sourced, or attributed to a named author. second, the entire body of content needs translation into English.
My expert, working with the Pride and Prejudice article, found a few things she would have interpreted differently--which is inevitable--no two experts will see a work like that the same way exactly. Except for the nausea induced by the repetitive cute language, thought very highly of it, & was fascinated by the breath of coverage and the excellent choice of links. In terms of actual content, it was judged much more comprehensive than our coverage of the topic, & free from serious error. It was noted that much of it, such as the discussion of plot, was clearly prepared specifically to be suitable for the current methods of teaching this material at a basic level.
I checked a few to see if I could identify authorship. The authors of at least some portions seem to be basically retired faculty--i wonder if they realize the way their work has been rewritten. The material is very highly edited by the staff to produce the unique and deplorable tone. (The cant phrases Lithoderm complains of are repeated in most articles, word for word. The effect is bad enough on a single article. By the third or so, it is incredible.)
But I think Lithoderm is judging on the wrong criteria. What matters is content. Their coverage of literature and start on a coverage of history is very valuable. I see no comment above that refers to this, so i assume he must have thought it acceptable. Bondera correctly noticed a US bias at present. I'm not sure what part he checked and found no better than to Wikipedia coverage, but some portions will normally be stronger than others,
Style is another matter. Every complaint of Lithoderm's is correct. We wouldn't accept the style here, but it's not a standard for other sites. In a sense, its refreshing to see a major project that is even worse written than our's. Personally, I think it a terrible blunder of the publishers. Talking down that way leads to contempt, not acceptance from students, and is likely to lead to rejection by teachers. They do have one advantage for teaching purposes: any plagiarism from it will be instantly recognizable.
They unfortunately do not give their own authorities, so they can not be used as authority in Wikipedia articles at this point, but they can be used as an appropriate external link. WP is not a textbook, and if it were it would still not write in this fashion, but it is perfectly appropriate to link to textbook-level material in our articles. I'd say that indeed it is necessary to do so, at various academic levels. I totally reject the negative judgements above. I would very strongly advise their addition to all of the relevant articles by the people who know, and on the basis of my own judgement as an academic librarian, I would be prepared to revert any removal of the links or attempted blacklisting.
The best course to take going forward is to have an article on it. We should be able to find published reviews, even now. It is of course necessary to distinguish published reviews from blurbs. DGG (talk) 03:56, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose I can grudgingly accept Shmoop external links, but questions have been raised about the accuracy of its content (particularly at Talk:Mending Wall#Shmoop link). It was only used as a reference in one article that I removed it from.
However, I still have strong reservations about the motives of those who are adding the links- their only contributions are adding shmoop links and arguing for the inclusion of shmoop links. They all seem to be in direct contact with Barriodude or are "shmoop users"- it's very suspicious, and my comments about COI not only applying to Barriodude above are still accurate. I do not mind links to sparknotes or cliffnotes because those are well known and generally respected study guides- they've been around for a while, and have a reputation for accuracy. They also lack the problems of style that have been noted with Shmoop. It bothers me that these editors are here expressly for the purpose of adding links to their new "passion project" (which opened on September 20th of this year)- links to sparknotes or cliffnotes are not necessarily added by enthusiastic new users or people directly affiliated with the site... Ah well. Lithoderm 17:24, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They should be accepted if they are a good link for an article. That would seem to be very unlikely most of the time. Maybe over on Simple Wikipedia, which is for people who have problems with adult language and reading levels, but not for a more serious encyclopedia like we are. And there is EXTREMELY clear indication of spamming going along. Any account that's only here to add those links should be reverted, warned and eventually blocked per WP:COI and WP:SPAM rules. DreamGuy (talk) 17:34, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree completely that they should not have been added the way they were. When I see people doing that, if the links seem at all usable, I tell them to stop & let people who work on the article regularly consider the links. If they do not stop, I've blocked them to prevent additional links, and then they often do cooperate. I think this user has been sufficiently warned and says above that he will now let people do it right. As for the appropriate WP, these links are high school or Freshman college level in the US, and that's appropriate for us, not simple. They possibly could go into simple too, for selected titles likely to be relevant there. The only parts of them I would be comfortable using as sources, not external links, are any sections which are actually signed and where the author can be identified as an expert. At the moment, such sections seem quite rare. As for accuracy, yes, their Mending Wall article had a very clear prominent error & I can not imagine any expert having written that part. We will now have the opportunity to test them. They're an online resource. How soon will they correct it? In my experience, quite a number of otherwise reputable places do not bother, and apparently think of it as print, & fix it next time they redo the site in 2 or 3 years. Let's see about them DGG (talk) 18:04, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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