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Former good article nominee1943 Gibraltar Liberator AL523 crash was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 15, 2013Good article nomineeNot listed
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on January 8, 2013.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the 1943 death of the Polish government in exile leader, general Władysław Sikorski, led to a number of conspiracy theories?
On this day...Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on July 4, 2014, July 4, 2018, and July 4, 2023.

Weird construction of the number of fatalities

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Article says, "While 11 was the official count of those who perished, the exact number of passengers was not known. In addition, there were six crew members on the flight"

If there were ~11 passengers and 6 crew then ~17 died. If there were 6 crew and 11 confirmed deaths then the disputed passenger count would be ~5. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.138.223.87 (talk) 05:18, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:1943 Gibraltar B-24 crash/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) 16:24, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Lead isn't an adequate summary of the whole article, I'd look to tip your hat at every major section.
  • "led to the death" resulted in the death. And I would suggest you state it resulted in the death of X people, including General ....
  • "general Władysław Sikorski and several other passengers. General Władysław Sikorski " firstly, be consistent with the capitalisation of General/general when you use it here, secondly, no need to repeat his rank/first name in the lead.
  • "the Prime Minister of the Polish government in exile" is there a link for Prime Minister? also "government-in-exile" should be hyphenated.
  • "While this catastrophe"... that's too much of a point of view. Neutralise the language.
  • From the lead "The 1943 Gibraltar B-24 crash led" it would be better to not force yourself to repeat the article title, instead write nice prose and say that on 4 July 1943, a Polish Army B-24 Liberator crashed upon takeoff from Gilbratar....
  • Non-English language references need to state (in Polish) or whatever language they're in.
  • Ref 1 seems to be missing a )
  • I'm a little confused why there's a forked article to "Sikorski's death conspiracies" (which isn't a great title unless you know exactly who this particular Sikorski is)... I'd consider merging that article into this one.
  • For a non-expert, it's confusing why it's called a B-24 crash in the article heading and template, but throughout the aircraft is referred to as a Liberator.
  • "other passengers perished" -> "were killed".
  • "Fatalities included: passengers:" strange formatting. Perhaps "Fatalities amongst the passengers included:"
  • "Victor Cazalet" the only fatality not referenced.
  • "Apart from the pilot Eduard Prchal (the only survivor of the crash) all the other five crew members died" not great, perhaps "Of the passengers and six crew, only the pilot Eudaurd Prchal survived"
  • " and might have " -> may.
  • "which is still being investigated by the Polish Institute of National Remembrance.[15][16][17] The investigation is ongoing As of 2012.[18]" merge these, and don't capitalise As mid-sentence.
  • Be selective with the images, that gallery isn't particularly useful. If you merged the conspiracy article to this one, you could place these appropriately.
  • There seems to be more info about the flight itself at Military history of Gibraltar during World War II than in this article.

I'm quite concerned over the spread of the information which should all be in this article but seems to be across (at least) three articles. There's some work to be done here so I'm going to fail it for the moment, but I'm happy to discuss the way forward, and am content to work with the nominator to work out the best solution. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:37, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Most issues addressed, with the exception of lead, merger, and gallery. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:38, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Merge

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was no consensus. There seems to be a slight preference for merging, but not enough to make a decisive call in that direction - especially with the discussion having been stale for nearly three months. A fresh discussion might produce a more decisive result. ... The Bushranger One ping only 00:32, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I propose that various articles or sections of articles are merged into this as there appears to be some unnecessary forking and duplication going on. Specifically, information from:

should be merged here. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:43, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Agree it clearly needs to be pulled together, the Military history of Gibraltar during World War II could be reduced to a much smaller summary, perhaps also consider changing the name to use the more common Liberator rather than the American B-24 designation. MilborneOne (talk) 09:00, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It should be listed a B-24 Liberator, just google the string and you'll see that's how it's referenced. Ajh1492 (talk) 08:07, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's not about counting votes (although four people are in favour of a merge, vs two against) it's about assessing consensus and paying heed to guidelines such as avoiding unnecessary forks. As for merging non-GA material, that's utterly irrelevant. Seems that the split was designed to create more GAs! The Rambling Man (talk) 10:10, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Personally speaking, I think some of the grammar in the conspiracy article is rather clumsy, but being just being a higher quality article should not be considered some absolute protection against merge if merge is shown to be the right action according to policy and consensus. GraemeLeggett (talk) 10:40, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I find it Hard to believe it passed GA when concerns had already been raised over its suitability as a standalone article. It needs reassessment. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:23, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The aircraft was an RAF one so it did not have the 'B-24' designation - 1943 Gibraltar Liberator crash might be more appropriate — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.147.13 (talk) 15:01, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Claims of Sabotage

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In December 2017 the book "To Live Well is to Hide Well"[32] explains the crash as completely 'deliberate sabotage' with proof and not as found by the IPN. Under orders with the OW JZ, Polish Military man Bronislaw Urbanski, a member of the OW ZJ 'Lizard Union' before it merged with the NSZ. Later Bronislaw became the ‘King Assassin’ for the Polish Government in Exile with orders located in England using various pseudonyms. He also was under the directions of Zbigniew Szubanski in Unit 993/W of the A.K. The book is based on Bronislaw's true life story and his detailed confessions. The book describes in detail why, who and exactly how this was done in Gibraltar without any detection to this very day. The method used to down the plane so quickly and leave no evidence has been verified by Garth Barnard Investigator and Producer of 'Sikorski's Last Flight' with WW2 Air Crash Investigators in 2017.

It is based on one source and there is no indication how reliable it is. 194.157.77.194 (talk) 07:45, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The book is a self-published work, mostly available in an electronic version. The information here has been added by an account that verges on the single purpose - User:Youngbruno - adding family information on the Urbanskis, and Bronisław Urbański in particular. A fairly long and detailed examination of the sources and aims of this editor was here, before it was deleted from the user's talk page. This book has had no scholarly reviews that I can find, nor any mention in reputable third party sources and fails WP:RS. The same material has been copied and pasted on several good articles without proper attribution or sourcing, and is especially dubious as it presents what is clearly disputable material as absolute fact. I will take this out of these articles, pending further discussion as per WP:BRD. 82.39.49.182 (talk) 22:47, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
RAF Gibraltar is a British military base where access was severely restricted at the time to authorised personnel only, the only people with access to Sikorski's aircraft would have been a few RAF personnel at RAF Gibraltar and the aircraft's occupants themselves. Franco's pro-Nazi Spain was only a few thousand yards away and the British weren't stupid enough to allow 'any Tom, Dick, or Harry' to wander around an RAF Station during time of war. Such people were likely to be shot-on-sight.

Adding that '...the British weren't stupid enough to allow 'any Tom, Dick, or Harry' to wander......' that is unless you were one of General Sikorski's 12 x bodyguards and were sent by the British from the Polish Government in Exile situated in London!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.205.223 (talk) 05:18, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This book has been revised and has many expert and scholary reviews. 

Bronislaw Urbanski 02:53, 17 January 2021 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Youngbruno (talk • contribs)
There's no evidence of sabotage. An overloaded aircraft at excessive take-off weight tried to take off from a runway of insufficient length, never gained flying speed and duly stalled into the sea. The only evidence of 'jammed elevators' came from the surviving co-pilot, who said he put the nose down to try and gain speed and then couldn't pull back on the stick again. But clearly the elevators were working a few seconds earlier when the captain 'rotated' nose-up to bring the aircraft off the runway, and again when one or both pilots nosed down to increase the airspeed. Oddly, the inquiry seems to have overlooked the fact that there were two pilots. The captain, who did not survive, may well have been maintaining fore-pressure on the stick (in obedience to the general rule, 'Never sacrifice airspeed for altitude in an emergency'), which would explain why the co-pilot couldn't pull back. It may be that the captain realised that, given the lack of flying speed, the only course was to make a controlled ditching, and the co-pilot's back-pressure prevented this and caused the fatal belly-flop, which the co-pilot would unsurprisingly be shy of admitting. See Air France Flight 447 for a well-known recent example of pilot and co-pilot 'jamming the controls' with different inputs in a panic, and then stalling into the sea. Khamba Tendal (talk) 17:28, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Incidentally, I'm not clear as to why the junior pilot, Flying Officer Prchal, is always listed as the command pilot, considering that the senior pilot, Squadron Leader Stanley Herring, DSO DFM, was in the other seat. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/21606 The article itself suggests that Fg Off Prchal was in fact performing the second pilot's duties, and Sqn Ldr Herring had a lot more multi-engine experience. Perhaps Sqn Ldr Herring allowed Prchal to take the left-hand seat for that flight (Sikorski supposedly wishing to be flown by the Czecn pilot for political reasons) and it proved to be a bad idea. It remains likely that there were no 'jammed controls', as they certainly weren't jammed a few seconds earlier when the aircraft rotated off the runway. It probably stalled due to insufficient flying speed for its weight (and the notoriously bad flight characteristics of the Liberator if its c.g. wasn't just so, the aircraft being controlled mainly with the elevator trim wheel) and Prchal thought the controls were 'jammed' because Herring was pushing forward on the yoke to try and ditch the thing properly while the less experienced Prchal was hopelessly trying to pull back in a panic to gain height, which was never going to happen. Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:37, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

List of passengers

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Re: [1]. Given the controversy and conspiracy theory (or theories, Władysław Sikorski's death controversy), the list of all passengers is informative to our readers. It is also referenced. An essay on style should not overrule prior consensus and result in censoring of referenced and relevant information from the article. In either case, only Lock and Pinder don't have an article; the others have it (on pl wikipedia). But Lock and Pinder are not nobodies; they are discussed in literature on this crash (ex. in a footnote here [2] - sorry, Polish, and snippet view). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:58, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with including non notable passengers. Six of the eleven listed passengers don't have articles about them. Don't really see how including an unknown courier helps understanding the articles subject. We have a long standing consensus to include only persons with a WP article in aircraft accident/incident articles. - Samf4u (talk) 14:11, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
First, only two passengers seem non-notable, I've noted and linked the articles of others on other languages. And given the existence of the cited controversy, this is an atypical case. Lock and Pinder are mentioned in books, etc. and not just one or two. They may not be notable in themselves, but they are names some readers may want to know about. Ex. the snippet I mentioned notes that they have been accused, by author of one of the most prominent conspiracy theories, of being UK secret agents who blew the plane up... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:16, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
They don't have articles, a good solid reason they don't can be two things- WP:BLP1E and WP:NOTMEMORIAL. This is the crash article. You can put all their names in the conspiracy article to your heart's content as long as it is reliably sourced....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 16:41, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Lists of dead passengers who do not have biographies on Wikipedia don't belong in aircraft crash articles. It adds nothing to understanding the subject for readers and falls afoul of WP:NOTMEMORIAL. - Ahunt (talk) 17:44, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So the passengers who are significant are listed, but the others are mentioned only in terms of what they were. Eg writing something like "accompanying the general were two adjutants". GraemeLeggett (talk) 18:39, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
From what I can see, the other passengers who were listed in the section have articles on Polish Wikipedia. To me, that's a clear indication of notability. I don't see a reason why it should be a problem having their names with short bio snippets listed in the article's appropriate section. - Darwinek (talk) 19:01, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And the Consensus has been when a article is required for some aviation accident article., that it be at English wikipedia. Here is an example[3]....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 19:41, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A single diff to an edit is not a proof of consensus. All individuals which have articles on Polish Wikipedia can be presumed to be notable on English and should be treated as such. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:12, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure you can make that leap, perhaps create English article for them and see if they stand up. That said I am not sure that Jan Gralewski is actually noteworthy enough for an article. Also nothing wrong and perhaps more suitable to list them in Władysław Sikorski's death controversy. MilborneOne (talk) 18:03, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Except that most readers would think to find them here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:45, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Question

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Instead of the prevarication, let's just look for a local consensus. Should individuals who don't have articles on en.wiki be listed in the "List of passengers"? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:06, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge with Władysław Sikorski's death controversy

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
To not merge on the grounds of no consensus for the merge with multiple objections on the grounds of independent notability of the controversy. Klbrain (talk) 11:46, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Much of the content overlaps. The controversy belongs in the article about the crash (or vice versa). Sandstein 13:55, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support merge on the grounds of overlap, or even frank duplication. The same event discussing the same idea. For example, 1943 Gibraltar Liberator AL523 crash#Conspiracy theories discusses precisely the sorts of material other commentators here are concerned about loosing. Klbrain (talk) 20:39, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Obvious WP:CFORK. —Brigade Piron (talk) 13:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Notified Wikiprojects WP:MILHIST and WP:DEATH for more input. starship.paint (talk) 13:22, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lifejacket

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"Jerzy Zięborak thinks that Prchal lied on purpose about the Mae West lifejacket." This is the only mention in the article of a lifejacket. What did Prchal say about it, and why does Zieborak think he lied? 71.235.184.247 (talk) 11:36, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Book and theory

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I removed this from Władysław Sikorski for WP:OTHERSTUFF and WP:PROMO. There may be something salvageable from it and vmt to Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus for the suggestion that if so it belongs here. The removed material is below. Regards to all, Springnuts (talk) 21:43, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply] 

In August 2020 Canadian Aeronautical expert and mechanic Chris Wroblewski combined with WW2 Air Crash Investigator - Britain's Garth Barnard (who produced 'Sikorski's Last Flight') [1] used scientific aeronautical analysis results produced a series of physical Trials  [2] based upon a model of Sikorski's plane (AL523). The Trials proved that the method outlined in the book by author Peter Urbanski 'To Live Well is to Hide Well' [3] was the sole reason for the plane's crash.
I@Springnuts: left the following message on the author's talk page (they have added this content several times now and been reverted every single time): Per WP:BRD, since your additions have been removed several times, please start a discussion on talk explaining why they are relevant. IMHO they don't belong there, but at 1943 Gibraltar Liberator AL523 crash. But you should at minimum source it to the book, not youtube video, and list the relevant page ranges of the book. However, the book appearas to be self-published (Amazon Kindle self-publishing), so it fails WP:SPS. Please see Talk:1943_Gibraltar_Liberator_AL523_crash#Book_and_theory and I recommend you reply there. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:41, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Book that supports my book which remains unchallenged published for 5 years is "To Live Is to Hide Well", 2017 revised 2023.
HOWEVER expert WW2 Air Crash Investigator- Garth Barnard and Canadian Chris Wroblewski have produced the "proffessionally published" book called "Sabotage!" published by Grub Street Publications in England release date Nov. 2023. They state in their professional promotional blurb this....
"
Despite AL523 being heavy and possibly overloaded, this was not the contributing cause of the crash. The pilot had competently taken off and cleared the runway. The sole reason for the aircraft’s fall to earth was simply a cotton rag used by Polish saboteur Bronislaw Urbanski to obstruct elevator travel. He and he alone was responsible for one of the most shocking events of WWII."
This is what my book states and proves andvis NOT THEORY like you purport. I have provennit. 203.221.20.154 (talk) 11:06, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ WWII Air Crash Detectives S01E02, retrieved 2022-11-11
  2. ^ Consolidated Liberator AL 523 - The Sabotage of Sikorski's plane by Chris Wroblewski, retrieved 2022-11-11
  3. ^ Urbanski, Peter. To Live Well is to Hide Well: The Real James Bond.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 July 2023

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Please note FABRICATION and the man DIED before the IPN (Polish) Official investigation 2009. It is wrong and absurd to put someones comments that died before the official investigation that said it was still ongoing. The author who wrote this is trying to change history that it was an accident.

See and please delete reference to him. Do YOUR RESEARCH HE DIED BEFORE THE OFFICIAL COMMENTS OF THE POLISH GOVERNMENT

......However, as Roman Wapiński noted in his biographical entry on Sikorski in the Polish Biographical Dictionary in 1997, no conclusive evidence of any wrongdoing had been found, and Sikorski's official cause of death was listed as an accident.[1]..... Bronislaw Urbanski 01:11, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Recoil (talk) 15:24, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi I am the son and author of the man (team) that sabotaged Wladyslaw Sikorskis plane back in 1943.
I have written a book and it has not been be faulted in 5 years of print around the world. So it is self published. Its factual.
My father wanted the world to know when he died, but to wait 35 years later to stop the embarrassment of or to our family.
Now, I am dying of heart failure.
My book 'To Live Well is to Hide Well' 2017 but revised 2023 explains it all, please actually read it, it has references, photos and proof of precisely how it was performed, not theory, listing all those involved and even why.
FURTHERMORE it NOW has been verified by Experts, like Garth Barnard, Britain's WW2 Air Crash Investigator and Aviation (Canadian) Chris Wroblewski both have just published their book 'Sabotage!' by Grub Street Publications 2023. Their release date is November this year. So, perhaps leave any alterations and changes until the world is presented their book if you do not believe my book.
It will be embarrassing for Wikipedia once they publish their book as it clearly states 'ONE' person was responsible for the crash and they have already named him all around the world in their publicity campaign.
Remember, their publishing company solves alot of flight and aviation related problems. facts.

The biggest problem Wikipedia faces is = blind faith as Poland will refuse the truth as they do not wish to hear that a Polish Intelligence officer took out their leader. They want to blame the Russians as I would want to. What to you do Wikipedia, tell the truth or lie now and create fake stories to soothe Polish people? I would tell the truth.

My suggestion is either add my original comments why it happened, or wait until the book is released shortly and the news.
Peter Bronislaw Urbanski 22:19, 8 August 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Youngbruno (talk • contribs)

Change in "Accident"

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Zofia's name is written twice. 37.30.12.111 (talk) 08:56, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed, thank you. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:23, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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