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Requested move 19 September 2024

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2024 Lebanon pager explosions → ? – Following up from last RM, the options for this RM will focus on the specific language in the title. Keep the arguments on WP:TITLE policy. We can always propose additional changes to the title in this section. Awesome Aasim 23:48, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove the year

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Support as per nom FloridaMan21 17:10, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changing "Lebanon" to "Hezbollah"

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Extended content
  • Perhaps, but the electronic devices were distributed by Hezbollah to its operatives. The devices were not commercially available. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 23:25, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Two of the killed were children, and 2 were hospital workers, were they also Hizbollah "operatives"?. They might have targeted Hizbollah, but the fact is that they hit innocent people, Huldra (talk) 21:04, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      The children who died were probably children of Hezbollah operatives who played around with their parents' pagers, and the "hospital workers" who died were probably Hezbollah operatives who moonlighted as "hospital workers". But none of that is even remotely relevant. The only thing that is relevant is that the devices were issued by Hezbollah. Nobody who is not affiliated with Hezbollah, or affiliated with people affiliated with Hezbollah, would have had access to those devices. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 02:01, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      What about the people at funerals or supermarkets who happened to be near someone with a pager? Are they "operatives" too?
      RSes have said civil servants and charity workers also received those devices because Hezbollah is a political party as well as a paramilitary group. They're not "moonlighting" as anything.
      And of course other people would have access to those devices. There were 4,000 devices spread across two countries. People leave devices lying around, lose them, put them in cloakrooms, store them in lockers, etc.
      But regardless of all that, a child — even if their parents work for Hezbollah — isn't a valid target and their deaths shouldn't be shrugged off as "oh well, Hezbollah!" Let's not be glib, even accidentally, about the death of kids. Yikes. Lewisguile (talk) 14:31, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      The children were not the target. The target was Hezbollah. It was the parents who put their child in harms way by choosing a dangerous line of work, and then on top of that, they brought their work home with them. Hezbollah is a paramilitary organization with representation in the Lebanese parliament.
      Anybody who freely chooses to associate with Hezbollah is putting themselves, as well as anybody they associate with, in harms way, even if the people who associate with the Hezbollah operatives are not even aware that they are associating with a Hezbollah operatives. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 14:59, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      It was an unlawful boobytrapping of civilian communications devices that contravened all kinds of laws of war, including, not least, targeting devices also used by (non-Hezbollah) medical personnel. The devices also exploded in indiscriminate locations, such as supermarkets. Not surprising that all legal commentators call it A) a war crime, or B) a terrorist attack.[3] Iskandar323 (talk) 16:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Remember that these were communication devices that were purchased by Hezbollah and issued to its operatives. These devices were not available to civillians in any store within Lebanon. To receive one these devices, a person had to have either gotten it from Hezbollah, or, for whatever reason, were given the devices by an operative of Hezbollah. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 16:16, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      That's OR, and you're not a reliable source, but The Nation is. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:38, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      The Nation did not say that the pagers were widely available for the general Lebanese population. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 16:49, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      It said medical workers were killed after the words "but so", contrasting this with "Hezbollah members". A statement that OR alone cannot overwrite. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:50, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      In case it does actually need to be said: someone working for a charity or hospital doesn't deserve to die just because of who funds (or part-funds) that organisation. Taking pagers home isn't supposed to be a risk to your child. Nurses don't deserve to die. Neither do kids. Again, yikes! Lewisguile (talk) 17:24, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Nurses who are Hezbollah operatives during their day job are absolutely legitimate targets, and parents who let their children handle their Hezbollah-issued pagers put the lives of their children at risk. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 17:36, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      So you think booby trapping a device used by a member or supporter of a party and making it explode without caring about who it harms or where the explosion happens is perfectly fine and legal and should be celebrated. We are not supposed to feel bad for the victims even if they were not the intended target cause they chose to be nearby other people so they were asking for it. Hopefully you'll apply the same logic if/when the target is Likud or any other Israeli or American political party. - Ïvana (talk) 19:22, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we're getting a little distracted – WP:NOTFORUM. GhostOfNoMan 22:03, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • You are losing focus here.
      I definitely think that booby trapping devices used by operatives of a paramilitary organization absolutely means that the article name should contain the name of the paramilitary organization whose devices were booby trapped. The fact that this paramilitary organization has representation in the Lebanese parliament or that the operatives of this paramilitary organization moonlight as nurses does not mean that the name of this paramilitary organization should not be in the article's name. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 20:11, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      WP:NOTFORUM. nableezy - 21:53, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Nurses are civilians, so that's a no. It doesn't matter what the political allegiance of medical personnel is; no one gets to murder medical personnel in cold blood and call it lawful. The civilian/combatant distinction doesn't magically evaporate because some countries call a group 'terrorist' – language that has zero bearing in international law. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:47, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Doesn't seem like you understand that just because a Hezbollah operative moonlights as a nurse and puts on a nurse uniform, that does not erase their affiliation to Hezbollah. It is not a contradiction to be a nurse and a Hezbollah operative. And that means that it is appropriate to put Hezbollah in the article's name.
      Only people with affiliations to Hezbollah would have had access to the Hezbollah issued pagers. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 04:23, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      The sources don't obviously support the bald assertion that only Hezbollah members had the devices. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:24, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      The sources all say that the pagers were issued by Hezbollah. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 21:15, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changing "pagers" to "electronics"/"communications"

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Changing "explosions" to "attacks"

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  • Support per my reason in the previous RM. WP:RS classify this as an "attack" including [6] [7] [8] and so we should just mirror what RS does. Awesome Aasim 23:48, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with "attacks" in principle, but I'm a little concerned that, coupled with a Lebanon → Hezbollah change, the title "Hezbollah pager attacks" (or "Hezbollah electronics attacks" etc.) would be misleading – wouldn't a plain reading make it appear Hezbollah were themselves responsible, and not the target? Maybe I'm being overly cautious, but I could easily see such a title causing confusion. GhostOfNoMan 00:20, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    We can use "attacks on ..." or "attacks in ..." if needbe. I do appreciate the concern as we do need to ensure this title is not misleading though. Awesome Aasim 00:37, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    But I think "Lebanon electronics attacks" would be fine and unambiguous.VR (Please ping on reply) 01:14, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    2024 Lebanon electronics attacks would be my preferred title, but I'm not immovable on the 2024 part. Lewisguile (talk) 09:15, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose That title makes it sound like Hezbollah committed an attack, not that they were attacked. Explosions is also more descriptive. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:36, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Opoose Explosions is more specific. Jehochman Talk 01:02, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Explosions seems more vague, because it includes accidents (eg 2020 Beirut explosion), whereas this was not accidental.VR (Please ping on reply) 01:13, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Support Attacks. Jack Upland (talk) 02:18, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support "Explosions" implies it was an accident. "Attack(s)" is clearer. Similarly, articles about bombings do not use "explosions" (eg Oklahoma City bombing). As for the confusion of who was the attacker and who was the target, there are ways around it. There were some ideas to resolve that in the previous RM. Saying "Attacks on/against Lebanon/Hezbollah" should suffice. Arcturus95 (talk) 02:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per above. 'Explosions' implies it could've been an accident; it was mostly definitely an attack and most RS support this. Icantthinkofausernames (talk) 02:13, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Could cause someone to misinterpret Hezbollah/Lebanon (Lebanon is fine to use, check replies) as the perpetrator. Other than that, I support. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 02:15, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @BerryForPerpetuity, based on my understanding of English (it is not my mother tongue), the word "Lebanon" is only a noun (whose adjective is "Lebanese"), whereas "Hezbollah" is both a noun and adjective. So "Lebanon electronics attack" should unambiguously indicate Lebanon as the location of the attack, not the perpetrator.VR (Please ping on reply) 02:29, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Vice regent: You are correct. I've updated my support to clear that up. Thanks, — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 15:06, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Explosions is more specific - "attack" could mean an attack on pager infrastructure or similar. Further, if it's changed to Hezbollah, the title Hezbollah pager (or word) attack would imply they attacked pagers, rather than their pagers exploded. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:09, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Clarifying my comment in relation to the above - I think that this needs to be considered together with the question over what the "items" that exploded/were attacked are called. I cannot support "electronics attack(s)" because that is ambiguous as to whether it was an attack on electronic infrastructure, an attack using electronic weapons, etc. So if it's changed to "electronics" (the shortest word that seems to include the various devices involved) then I still oppose changing to attacks. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 19:09, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I am partial to Lebanon exploding electronics attacks; it is concise, precise, follows policy, and does a good job of explaining what happened and in what location. As others have said, having explosions alone omits the fact that this was a targeted attack, leaving open the possibility that it was instead a series of tragic accidents. And having attacks alone leaves too much open to interpretation: Was Lebanon / Hezbollah attacked or did they attack? And via the use of what kind of electronics warfare? Havradim leaf a message 06:24, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support "attacks", per what I've written below.--JasonMacker (talk) 18:40, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in principle, but care must be taken that the final outcome of this RM does not make it sound like Hezbollah was the one committing the attack. Therefore, the article name should be something like Attacks on Hezbollah's pagers and walkie talkies. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 20:39, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, "explosions" is more exact to describe what happened (pagers exploded) while "pager attack" may imply electronic espionage or disrupting communication. Also "...pagers attack" could imply active ("they attacked") instead of passive ("they got exploded"). MathKnight 21:30, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with you on your second point. That's why I put a note in my !vote with a caution that if using the word "attacks", the word order would have to change (along with needing to add the prepesition "on").
    On your first point, because all the explosions happened at the same time (or within a ½ an hour or so), then it does constitute an attack (or more accurately "attacks" because there were two attacks on two different days). The Mountain of Eden (talk) 21:39, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support; "explosion" could be an accident, "attack" is what it was, Huldra (talk) 23:26, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - an explosion might be unintended, an attack is not. - Ïvana (talk) 23:55, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for this title format - "Lebanon pager attacks" and "Hezbollah pager attacks" make it sound like Lebanon/Hezbollah are the perpetrators. I don't categorically oppose using "attacks" instead of "explosions" but it has to be as part of a title that phrases it in a way that doesn't confuse the perpetrator with the victim of the attack, so something different than any of the variations currently proposed. Levivich (talk) 07:00, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support as these specific "explosions" had a perpetrator, Israel. RS have confirmed Israel to be the perpetrator of this coordinated attack. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:13, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as explosions is more specific. Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 08:41, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support attacks. Explosions is too vague and implies the devices just blew up, e.g., due to manufacturing issues or excessive heat. These were attacks, and RSes support that. This is why I also don't think Hezbollah should be in the title. It should be 2024 Lebanon electronics attacks. Lewisguile (talk) 09:22, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - because I support changing "Lebanon" to "Hezbollah", and 2024 Hezbollah pager attacks could mislead readers to believe the attacks were committed by Hezbollah rather than against Hezbollah.--estar8806 (talk) ★ 17:44, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as attack is what it was. IntrepidContributor (talk) 13:35, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as "explosions" is more specific and exactly what happened. I would support "attack" if it was a weapon that was used. Pager is a harmless device, and its hard to visualize it as a weapon in "pager attacks". It sounds more like a virus attack that software devices are prone to. I do not mind "attack" if the nature of the attack is part of the title, such as "explosion attacks" or "explosive attacks". Jay 💬 15:08, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Feels more correct to include "attacks" in the title—considering that's what it was—particularly to avoid indicating that the devices exploded by themselves in some sort of accident. Aria1561 (talk) 17:00, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Speaks to state of mind of the perpetrator. Likely an WP:NPOV issue. AllPurposeScientistblah 17:51, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    ...you think they accidentally put explosives in thousands of pagers? Or that they did it intentionally but not with the intent to attack anyone? What other state of mind could the perpetrator possibly have had? (And does any RS suggest any state of mind other than attack?) Levivich (talk) 19:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Clear enough that it was deliberate, but explosions is more descriptive and recognisable. 5225C (talk • contributions) 09:10, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Explosions is more descriptive, and "attack" is ambiguous, as said above, you cant tell who is doing the attacking. DaringDonna (talk) 19:25, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support; I agree with the argument that an "explosion" could be accidental, while the term "attack" is more specific. Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:07, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support: The title should be revised from "explosions" to "attacks," as sources consistently identify these incidents as deliberate, coordinated actions, rather than accidental explosions. The term "explosions" suggests unintended events, whereas "attacks" accurately conveys the intentional nature of these acts, with known perpetrators. This aligns with the terminology used for similar events, such as bombings, which are properly labeled to reflect their deliberate nature. Simple. StarkReport (talk) 10:10, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support (weak because of grammar issues) Attacks is more precise term. However, explosions clearly attaches to the device mentioned in the title, while attack is typically mentally attached to an animate actor (e.g., Hezbollah, Lebanon, etc.). The heading should be phrased to clarify that the devices were the agents of the attack, rather than Lebanon or Hezbollah.— rsjaffe 🗣️ 23:53, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Some editors are considering these sections entirely separately - and I think that puts us at risk of having a title that is very unclear/ambiguous. Pager attacks is pretty clear (attack on pagers), electronics explosions is clear (there were electronics that exploded), but electronics attack(s) is ambiguous. Was it an electronic attack (i.e. jamming)? Was it an attack on electronics infrastructure (i.e. cell phone towers or internet infrastructure)? Was it an attack that used electronics as the vector for the attack (this is the closest)? Does anyone have ideas for potential other words (other than explosions or attacks) that may be better? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 23:59, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I can't think of much that isn't too wordy or problematic for other reasons – e.g. explosive electronics attacks introduces more problems than it solves. I don't honestly think electronics (plural) is that likely to cause confusion regarding electronic attacks (singular). A shame that something like 2024 explosive sabotage of Hezbollah communication devices is just so verbose... GhostOfNoMan 22:16, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    (I'm not suggesting that latter title; just an example of how lengthy a title can sometimes grow when the goal is to remove all ambiguity. Or it's just a display of the poverty of my imagination when it comes to naming things...) GhostOfNoMan 22:24, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Per my comment in the previous RM, RS describe the events as an attack. मल्ल (talk) 20:18, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Sources are using "device explosions" and that is what has happened in both cases. Attacks is not wrong but explosions is more specific and equally concise. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 17:46, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The device explosion was the attack, while both are accurate, it would appear that attack is the more common title. Andre🚐 06:38, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Both "attack" and "explosions" are equally accurate descriptors in isolation, but when combined with "Lebanon" or "Hezbollah" in a title, "attack" is more prone to misreading that Lebanon/Hezbollah was the source rather than the target. jnestorius(talk) 11:16, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Including "Israeli sabotage attack"

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Discussion

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Is there a reason there is no RMCD hatnote on the article page? jnestorius(talk) 10:54, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The User:RMCD bot must have broke. @Wbm1058? Fix? Or maybe someone can add the tag manually. Awesome Aasim 11:00, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
?! Edit failed due to a recent RMCD bot edit (0RR) is what I saw on my bot's console. Sorry, imposed a 0RR restriction on the bot to mitigate possible edit warring, and did not anticipate that a new RM would open within four hours of the close of another. If you had waited 24 hours to open the new RM, the bot would have been fine with it. My bot hasn't yet found the intelligence to distinguish between its short-term edits to two different requested moves on the same page. Frankly, the whole world is watching this one; I don't think an article notice is really necessary to draw more participation. – wbm1058 (talk) 13:02, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IMO the hatnote serves not merely to invite editors to participate in the debate, but also to alert non-editors that the current title may not reflect a settled consensus of editors. jnestorius(talk) 15:09, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I raised the bot's edit limit for posting in subject-space from 0RR to 1RR. Hopefully will mitigate this issue in the future. – wbm1058 (talk) 00:17, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have not seen an RFC before that has been divided into multiple sections with separate votes. Is this proper practice? Makeandtoss (talk) 12:25, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not an RFC; this is an RM. Sdkb suggested subsections for each part of the title, so I just did that. I don't find anything unusual about this, it helps a lot with discussion organization for complex and contentious article title discussions. If this was cut and dry then the proposed title would have been speedy moved in the last RM discussion. Awesome Aasim 12:32, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I still haven't seen an RM doing these subdivisions for each word in the move. But anyway, I will participate in the move discussion tomorrow, if no other editor finds this also unconventional other than myself. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:39, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is effectively several move requests wrapped into one and seems like an inevitable WP:TRAINWRECK for that reason.--estar8806 (talk) ★ 17:47, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The trainwreck was the previous move request from Sept 17, which could not reach a consensus, other than the article needs to be renamed. In this format, in which the questions on how to rename is broken down into simple questions, it'll be possible to reach a consensus. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 17:53, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I think the terms of the RM are too broad and we should have done it one title change at a time. E.g., I would have started with a proposed change to 2024 Lebanon pager attack first, then one for electronics, and so on. Alternatively, we should just have asked everyone to give their preferred title and any compromise titles they'd also accept and just gone with that. With multiple discussions each on one or two words in the title, you run the risk of the final title being nonsense like Israeli sabotage attacks Hezbollah devices attacks (to give one example). Lewisguile (talk) 09:01, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's also impossible to know if we should keep the year or remove it without knowing what the rest of the title will be. For example, I support the title Pager and walkie-talkie attacks, so I voted for removing the year. But many other titles are too broad without the year. FunLater (talk) 14:51, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point. And trying to assess consensus
ll be a nightmare. I've tried to re-edit my !votes to clarify which options I'd like in every answer, but not everyone has done that.i
Lewisguile (talk) 15:43, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Courtesy ping

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Can someone get a courtesy ping for this? I think it would be very helpful. I wish there was an automated way for this. Awesome Aasim 00:35, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging editors who commented in the previous WP:RM, but have yet to comment in this WP:RM.
MathKnight, Eastwood Park and strabane, Nice4What, Whizkin, Thuresson, RisingTzar, Makeandtoss, Kowal2701, मल्ल, DaringDonna, David O. Johnson, Mk17b, Borgenland, Pilaz, Spilia4, Hogo-2020, Mhhossein, Nishidani, Oathed, Martinevans123
Apologies if I missed anybody. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 21:05, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the courtesy ping, but I am not sure what I am supposed to do. I do not think the name of the article is that overwhelmingly important, as long as it is neutral and can be found easily by someone looking for it. Also, it looks like the RM is closed anyway. If you cant figure it out, 2024 Lebanon pager explosions seems just fine. DaringDonna (talk) 20:02, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The previous RM closed w/o a consensus. In lieu of the RM that closed, a new RM was opened in which the question of how to rename was broken into smaller questions. If you'd like to participate in the new RM you can. If you don't that's fine. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 02:03, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for clarifying, but I don't see this new "trainwreck" of an RM. Help please so I can add my useless opinion, maybe. DaringDonna (talk) 19:11, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Never mind, I found it. DaringDonna (talk) 19:44, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:V violation

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The background section says "A day after Hamas launched its 7 October 2023 attacks on Israel, Hezbollah joined the conflict in "solidarity with the Palestinians" by firing on Shebaa Farms, Safed, Nahariya, and other Israeli positions."

This looks unverifiable. On October 8, Hezbollah didn't fire on Israel but on Israeli-occupied Golan Heights[13][14] and Israeli-occuped Shebaa Farms[15]. In response, Israel fired back, killing several Hezbollah members, and only then did Hezbollah fire into Israel[16].

The source currently in the article, says "Further, as time went on, both Israel and Hezbollah started attacking areas in the other side’s territory further from the border and larger cities. Hezbollah attacked Safed and Nahariya, and the IDF attacked as far as Baalback, which is 100 kilometers into Lebanese territory."

Given this is a WP:V violation, and the article is on the main page, I will remove this immediately.VR (Please ping on reply) 02:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine with me. I noticed similar wording had been changed on one of the related pages already, so I think there's consensus elsewhere on WP for what you say. Lewisguile (talk) 07:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Galamore Please see links above for the timeframe of events on 8 October and thereafter. I believe the confusion in your last edit was due to the Times of Israel article, which says "Since 8 October" and then gives an overview of the whole conflict since that date, rather than specifically detailing the initial attacks by Hezbollah on Israeli forces in the occupied territories.
So the order of events seems to be Hamas attacks on Israel > Hezbollah attacks on Shebaa Farms and Golan Heights > response from Israel into Lebanon > response from Hezbollah into Israel, and then it carries on as described.
My view is that describing the first two events (Hamas attack, attacks on occupied territories) and then saying "Since then..." adequately covers this entire sequence of events, since it doesn't require us to detail every exchange but does confirm that both Israel and Hezbollah attacked across the border, with civilians hurt and killed. If we specifically mention that Lebanon attacked civilian areas, then I think we also have to say that Israel did too, and we have to get the order right.
I think the wording as I've tweaked it is now accurate without needing to go into that much detail, but I'm happy to discuss further if you have additional queries or suggestions. Lewisguile (talk) 09:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't see your removal of the text, so I wonder if you've made it on a different page? Your comment is worth copying to the talk pages of the related articles anyway (e.g., September 2024 Lebanon strikes). Here's the amended text, as I've left it:
"On 8 October 2023, a day after Hamas launched its 7 October 2023 attacks on Israel and Israel began its bombing of Gaza, Hezbollah joined the conflict in "solidarity with the Palestinians",[1][2] initially firing on Israeli military outposts in Shebaa Farms and the Golan Heights — both territories under Israeli occupation."[1]
[1]: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/9/hezbollah-fires-on-israel-after-several-members-killed-in-shelling
[2]: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/10/violence-escalates-between-israel-and-lebanons-hezbollah-amid-gaza-assault
Let me know what you think. Lewisguile (talk) 09:28, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that such a wording would be not a WP:V violation. But I think better wording needs to be found, and we are talking about that at Talk:September_2024_Lebanon_strikes#More_background_issues.VR (Please ping on reply) 11:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is way too detailed. This should be a summary of how the war developed between Israel and Hezbollah. Hamas attacked, a day later Hezbollah joined with attacks against Israel, and it developed to a long cross-border conflict until the recent escalation. That's it Galamore (talk) 12:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"a day later Hezbollah joined with attacks against Israel" That's misleading, as we're trying to tell you. The October 8 firing was not "against Israel" but against Israeli military positions inside occupied Syria/Lebanon. Secondly, before Hezbollah attacked, Israel had killed hundreds in Gaza (see this discussion) through its bombing.VR (Please ping on reply) 15:53, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is getting into slippery slope territory because the conflict goes so far back that editors who want to POV push will argue that one side or the other started it.
What's the point of the background section? Why is it even necessary to have, outside of a link to Israel-Hezbollah conflict? Kcmastrpc (talk) 16:20, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dropping the background section altogether could be the way to go. @Vice regent what would you add/change from my suggested wording above? If you've got a preferred solution, I'd be happy to hear it. Or be bold and make that change now, to save time, and then we can discuss it here afterwards. Lewisguile (talk) 07:20, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Another option is to use the following as per my latest edit to the Hezbollah HQ strikes article:
"A day after Hamas launched its 7 October 2023 attacks on Israel and Israel began bombing Gaza, Hezbollah joined the conflict, claiming solidarity with Palestine. Since then, Hezbollah and Israel have been involved in cross-border military exchanges that have displaced entire communities in Israel and Lebanon, with significant damage to buildings and land along the border." Refs as per 2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike#Background. Lewisguile (talk) 07:33, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll propose in the section below (#Proposed background versions). Lets leave this section for the glaring WP:V violation that should never happen again, no matter what other acceptable versions we agree upon.VR (Please ping on reply) 10:41, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed background versions

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Lewisguile, I think the current version is fine:

On 8 October 2023, a day after Hamas launched its 7 October 2023 attacks on Israel and Israel began its bombing of Gaza, Hezbollah joined the conflict in "solidarity with the Palestinians",[41][42] initially firing on Israeli military outposts in Shebaa Farms[42] and the Golan Heights[43][44] — both territories under Israeli occupation.[42] Since then, Hezbollah and Israel have been involved in cross-border military exchanges that have displaced entire communities in Israel and Lebanon, with significant damage to buildings and land along the border. Over 96,000 people in Israel[45] and over 111,000 in Lebanon have been displaced.[46] As of 24 August 2024, there were 564 confirmed deaths in Lebanon, including 133 civilians.[46] Israel and Hezbollah have maintained their attacks at a level that causes harm without escalating into a full-scale war.[47] Hezbollah has said it will not stop attacking Israel until Israel ceases its attacks in Gaza,[48] where more than 40,000 Palestinians have been killed.[49][50]

Consider how a piece in the Globe and Mail covers the background on the pager attacks:

The current fighting began after the Hamas-led attack on southern Israel on Oct. 7. Hamas demanded Hezbollah join the fray, but the Lebanese militia demurred, insisting it would limit itself to continuing efforts to drive Israel out of some border towns claimed by Lebanon, most notably Shebaa Farms. But Hezbollah increased cross-border rocket attacks, albeit mostly within the mutually accepted parameters of “routine” border violence within a mile on either side aimed at military targets. Hezbollah vows to continue until the Gaza war ends.

Only thing I'd add is also the Israeli death toll from Hezbollah firing.VR (Please ping on reply) 10:41, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why use an opinion article from a minor Canadian newspaper when we have a much more prominent and high-quality sources, scuh as The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/29/world/middleeast/iran-hezbollah-israel-nasrallah.html) and Foreign Affairs? (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/israel-and-hezbollah-are-escalating-toward-catastrophe) Galamore (talk) 11:41, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the recent edits on the Nasrallah assassination article, creating this:

Shortly after Hamas's 7 October 2023 attacks on Israel, Hezbollah started launched rockets at northern Israel, claiming solidarity with the "Palestinian resistance", and aiming to burden Israel, which was preparing its response to Hamas in Gaza, by creating a conflict on two fronts. Over time, Iran activated its broader network of militant groups, referred to as the "axis of resistance," opening multiple fronts against Israel. This move aimed to create regional chaos and pressure both the U.S. and Israel into negotiating a ceasefire with Hamas. Since then, Hezbollah and Israel have been involved in cross-border military exchanges that have displaced entire communities in Israel and Lebanon, with significant damage to buildings and land along the border. From 7 October 2023 to 20 September 2024, there were 10,200 cross border attacks, of which Israel launched 8,300.

is the best we can find and aligned with what how the top sources present the beginning of the war in the context of the September 2024 escalation. Galamore (talk) 11:46, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Galamore, one of the major sources for that edit is an op-ed, so the parts taken from that shouldn't be included in Wikivoice. Those parts probably belong in the Analysis section. That edit also retains prior wording that doesn't make sense now other clauses have been removed (e.g., Hezbollah joined the war the day after). Thankfully, I have already made some adjustments over on that page.
The first bit of text in Background is as follows:
"The day after Hamas's 7 October 2023 attacks on Israel, Hezbollah joined the conflict with Israel, claiming solidarity with the "Palestinian resistance". Nasrallah said Hezbollah aimed to "strain Israel’s resources" by forcing it to fight on two fronts. Since then, Hezbollah and Israel have been involved in cross-border military exchanges that have displaced entire communities in Israel and Lebanon, with significant damage to buildings and land along the border. From 7 October 2023 to 20 September 2024, there were 10,200 cross border attacks, of which Israel launched 8,300."
This removes any objectionable material about the order of events, or what counts as territory of which country, but still includes the aims as described by Nesrallah (the most important addition, I feel), and includes most of what was there before.
In addition, I moved the op-ed assessment of events to Analysis, where it now says:
"Writing in The New York Times, Farnaz Fassihi said the assassination of Nasrallah eliminated a key figure from Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei's inner circle, as Iran had spent forty years developing Hezbollah as a frontline defense against Israel. Fassihi said that Iran had, over time, activated a broader network of militant groups, including Hezbollah, to open multiple fronts against Israel, aiming to create regional chaos and pressure both the U.S. and Israel into negotiating a ceasefire with Hamas."
This covers the other matters. I think that we probably don't need to rehash all the details about Iran and Hamas here, when it's covered better in other places (e.g., Israel–Hamas war and Hezbollah–Israel conflict).
My hope is that this can make the most number of people happy without anything overly contentious or likely to trigger an edit war. We could adapt it for use here, too, if there's consensus that there are problems with the current version.Lewisguile (talk) 12:49, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Lewisguile this seems to be an okay compromise, though it is unclear what "joined the conflict with Israel" means (many sources say they initiated attacks against Israel), but maybe that's clear enough without getting to more and more debates? Galamore (talk) 13:40, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I considered more detailed wording there, but it always gets into an argument or edit war. When I have tried to reflect the series of events as described in the timeline on Wikipedia, others have edited that or reverted it. I think it's best to leave it as it is and not go into too much detail. Lewisguile (talk) 15:06, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Galamore your version is extremely POV in that it only presents the conflict from Israel's perspective, leaving out both Lebanese and Palestinian POVs.
@Lewisguile, we really need to mention that Hezbollah's goals have been to stop Israel's killings in Gaza. Sources that have mentioned this:
  • Hezbollah says its attacks aim to support the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, where nearly 18,000 people – most of them women and children – have been killed by Israel in two months. Al Jazeera Dec 2023
  • in a BBC interview, Hezbollah's deputy leader warned Hezbollah would escalate because "because Israel is increasing its aggression against civilians and killing more women and children."[17]
  • "Hezbollah’s leader, Hassan Nasrallah, has stressed the armed group is ready, but not eager, for war. He says if there is a ceasefire agreed in Gaza, Hezbollah will cease fire too, immediately" BBC
  • "If there is a ceasefire in Gaza, we will stop without any discussion," Hezbollah's deputy leader, Sheikh Naim Kassem, said in an interview with The Associated Press at the group's political office in Beirut's southern suburbs.NPR
VR (Please ping on reply) 01:54, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Vice regent, that is covered later in the same paragraph (mostly); I just didn't paste it here because it remains untouched from an earlier edit. The whole paragraph says:
"On 8 October 2023, a day after Hamas launched its 7 October 2023 attacks on Israel and Israel began its bombing of Gaza, Hezbollah joined the conflict in "solidarity with the Palestinians", initially firing on Israeli military outposts in Shebaa Farms and the Golan Heights — both territories under Israeli occupation. Since then, Hezbollah and Israel have been involved in cross-border military exchanges that have displaced entire communities in Israel and Lebanon, with significant damage to buildings and land along the border. Over 96,000 people in Israel and over 111,000 in Lebanon have been displaced. As of 24 August 2024, there were 564 confirmed deaths in Lebanon, including 133 civilians. Israel and Hezbollah have maintained their attacks at a level that causes harm without escalating into a full-scale war. Hezbollah has said it will not stop attacking Israel until Israel ceases its attacks in Gaza, where more than 40,000 Palestinians have been killed."
Personally, I think that's a decent compromise. Lewisguile (talk) 07:32, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another take, based on some of the sources and versions given above:

Shortly after the onset of the Israel-Hamas war in October 2023, Hezbollah joined the conflict, which quickly evolved into regular cross-border military exchanges impacting northern Israel, southern Lebanon and the Golan Heights. Pointing out the killing of women and children in Gaza, Hezbollah said it aimed to pressure Israel by forcing it to fight on two fronts. Hezbollah offered an immediate ceasefire, should a ceasefire also happen in Gaza. From 7 October 2023 to 20 September 2024, Hezbollah has launched 1,900 cross border attacks, and Israel has launched another 8,300. The fighting has displaced entire communities in Israel and Lebanon, with significant damage to civilian infrastructure.

VR (Please ping on reply) 02:03, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is better:
"Shortly after the onset of the Israel-Hamas war in October 2023, Hezbollah joined the conflict, citing solidarity with Palestinians, which quickly escalated into regular cross-border military exchanges impacting northern Israel, southern Lebanon and the Golan Heights. Hezbollah said it aimed to pressure Israel by forcing it to fight on two fronts. Hezbollah has offered an immediate ceasefire should a ceasefire also happen in Gaza, where 40,000 Palestinians have been killed. From 7 October 2023 to 20 September 2024, Hezbollah has launched 1,900 cross border attacks, and Israel has launched another 8,300. The fighting has displaced entire communities in Israel and Lebanon, with significant damage to civilian infrastructure."
"Point out..." feels a bit shoehorned in and it's working overtime to make a point which suddenly feels very conspicuous. I also tweaked a few words (e.g., "escalated" feels better than "evolved"). Lewisguile (talk) 07:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Lewisguile for working with me on this. Ok, so to tweak your version:

Shortly after the onset of the Israel-Hamas war in October 2023, Hezbollah joined the conflict, citing solidarity with Palestinians, which quickly escalated into regular cross-border military exchanges impacting northern Israel, southern Lebanon and the Golan Heights. Hezbollah said it aimed to pressure Israel by forcing it to fight on two fronts. Hezbollah has offered an immediate ceasefire should a ceasefire also happen in Gaza, where 40,000 Palestinians have been killed, majority being women and children. From 7 October 2023 to 20 September 2024, Hezbollah has launched 1,900 cross border attacks, and Israel has launched another 8,300. The fighting killed 564 in Lebanon (including 133 civilians) and 52 in Israel (including 27 civilians), displaced entire communities in Israel and Lebanon, with significant damage to civilian infrastructure.

I added the composition of the Palestinian casualties, but also, very importantly, mentioned the casualties in both Lebanon and Israel. And can we use this same version on the 2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike and September 2024 Lebanon strikes? VR (Please ping on reply) 13:20, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Vice regent I would be happy with that. I'd suggest swapping "majority being" for "mostly", since that flows better in the sentence. But that's a nitpick. Lewisguile (talk) 13:40, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great! And we agree we should just use the same first background paragraph for all three articles? That'll save us discussions on the other two pages.VR (Please ping on reply) 15:45, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makes sense to me. Lewisguile (talk) 15:57, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed it at this article[18].VR (Please ping on reply) 10:18, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Two edit requests

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An IP has made a polite edit request on my user talk page that I think merits consideration:

  • 1. We should add (per The Guardian) that it was the circuit board of the pagers, that was infected with the explosive PETN, not the battery.
  • 2. We should add that Hezbollah's military wing used since 2008 for its communications its fiber optic network (per This is Beirut).

VR (Please ping on reply) 01:12, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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