Talk:Kenneth McLaren

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This article was nominated for deletion on 2 February 2010. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Biography: Military

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Military history: British / European

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Sources

Who said what when

He was exceptionally young looking,[citation needed]considered by BP to pass for a boy of fourteen when he first set eyes on him in 1880, when McLaren was nineteen. The two became fast friends, their relationship being one of the most important friendships in the Baden-Powell's life.[3][4]

This is a bit vague, according to who was he exceptionally young looking? It is written as if absolute fact? Also , is it a quote that bp said that he could pass for a boy of 14? if it is who did he say it to? Also , attribution is needed , things are presented as if indisputable facts, according to who or what is their relationship the one of the most important relationship in bp's life? Off2riorob (talk) 22:47, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Major

The citation says he was a captain in 1890 but there is a claim that he was promoted to major, when did he leave the army and when was he promoted to major? Captain MacLaren had been seriously wounded outside Mafeking, March 31, 1900. Off2riorob (talk) 22:58, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A Major Ken McLaren was manager of the Hurlingham Polo team, resigning in 1909.[1] Was it the same guy? We don't know. pablo_hablo. 23:30, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is likely, as he played polo in India with the army. If we can find that he is, it should be added to the article. If an obituary exists it will be difficult to find for someone of this period. --Bduke (Discussion) 23:44, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The London Gazette spells his name as Maclaren see [2]Kernel Saunters (talk) 23:41, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, which led me to a citation to his being seconded to Baker Russell. However - still no notability ... pablo_hablo. 23:46, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And a polo-expert Major Maclaren speaks here - still don't know if it's the same bloke though. pablo_hablo. 23:50, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That would make him 49 years old and in the English polo team? All very vague, Off2riorob (talk) 23:57, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Small point but it says he was manager, not a player. --Bduke (Discussion) 00:47, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[Military career] Kernel Saunters (talk) 00:11, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it would be a better use of time if we looked for sources that establish notability as opposed to the hobbies and past-times of a so far not-notable person? 206.169.172.212 (talk) 00:16, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That was me looking for information about the guy and demonstrating what I had found (ie not much apart from a person with the same name holding position as polo manager at a notable club). You can judge for yourself what a 'better use of your time' would be. Please feel free to get on with it rather than disparaging other's efforts. pablo_hablo. 14:18, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That anglo boar war site is good but I can't find a major K McLaren there ? Off2riorob (talk) 00:33, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just fixed the link. It ends saying "Major MacLaren retired 8 November 1905". Clearly the same person. we need to fix the different names uses. "Mac" and "Mc" are often both used.

Thanks I will have a look, if it is the same person when did he become a major? Off2riorob (talk) 01:01, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If they are the same person then this comment from the article and the content from the site ate in opposition...

From the website..He married (1st) Leila Evelyn (who died in 1904), and they had one daughter, and (secondly) Ethel Mary Wilson, in 1910. Major MacLaren retired 8 November 1905.[Military career]

From our article..Despite Baden-Powell's advice, McLaren divorced his wife of 30 years to marry a woman who (in Baden-Powell's opinion) was below his station.Jeal, Tim (1989). Baden-Powell. London Off2riorob (talk) 01:06, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion it looks like different people. Off2riorob (talk) 01:12, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We have a small point in the article wrong. Here are some sources: Jeal pg 75. (late 1898) "McLaren had married Leila Evelyn Landon". Jeal 77. Wife died in November 1904. 1910 he married Ethyl Mary Wilson. Then take ref 3 where several points fit. "Captain MacLaren had been seriously wounded outside Mafeking, March 31, 1900" is clearly our man. So the error is only that he divorced his wife. I will fix that and restore the alternative name. --Bduke (Discussion) 01:23, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If he was born in 1860 and his wife of 30 years died in 1904 he got married when he was 14. I think your desire for them to be the same person is affecting you to be quick to judgment, imo it is still very unclear, are you saying that Jeal had his facts wrong? I also think there is some misrepresentation of sources.Off2riorob (talk) 01:30, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jeal did not get his facts wrong. I did not add "divorced his wife of 30 years". It was in before my first edit to this article in late January. It is not supported by Jeal, even though that was the source. It was just wrong. I do not know why. It is fixed now. The paragraph I have just edited is supported by Jeal. Also, are you also saying there was a different man "seriously wounded outside Mafeking, March 31, 1900"? --Bduke (Discussion) 01:44, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Off2riorob, I see that you have reverted my removal of your "fact" tag. I think you should remove it, as I have demonstrated clearly that they are the same man. The coincidences between the army sources and Jeal are far too many to be coincidence - his wifes, their names and marriage dates, his army career, regiment, service record, seriously wounded outside Mafeking in 1900. It just goes on. While the AFD continues, this tag gives people reason to suppose that there is something wrong with all the sources that describe him as MacLaren. This in unfortunate and looks like you are playing the system. I am sure you do want to give that impression, so please remove it. --Bduke (Discussion) 02:23, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Would you please humor me and outline your clear demonstration / proof that they are the same man? I'm not trying to be contrary but if there's one that Biographers and military records have in common it is a desire to at least get names right. A difference in last names however similar could be significant. Nefariousski (talk) 02:30, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"...military records have in common it is a desire to at least get names right" There speaks someone with little experience of searching British military records... The desire may be there, but that is often as far as it goes. DiverScout (talk) 18:49, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I will humor you. Jeal uses the name "McLaren". First the content of ref 3 in the article as it stands now: "Captain Kenneth MacLaren, 13th Hussars, who it will be remembered was for a time adjutant of the regiment, was in July 1899 acting as A.D.C. to General Sir Baker Russell. He was then ordered to South Africa, as Colonel R. S. S. Baden-Powell had applied for his services. Captain MacLaren had been seriously wounded outside Mafeking, March 31, 1900." I think all of that is compatible with references from Jeal, but certainly "Colonel R. S. S. Baden-Powell had applied for his services. Captain MacLaren had been seriously wounded outside Mafeking, March 31, 1900." is and is very specific. Baden-Powell did not ask for two officers, Kenneth Mclaren and Kenneth MacLaren, who then both got wounded at the same place and time. Then this link here that also calls him MacLaren is full of stuff that fits what Jeal says. These include his School, his regiment, much of his service record. More specifically is this: "He married (1st) Leila Evelyn (who died in 1904), and they had one daughter, and (secondly) Ethel Mary Wilson, in 1910". Everything there fits with Jeal. He has all the information of the marriages and the death of his first wife. I have studied Jeal carefully and have it in front of me. The material is in chapter 3 from page 75 on. I see nothing in Jeal that does not match the content of the army sources that call him "Maclaren". Is this enough? The "fact" tag for the two names needs to be removed anyway, but in the AfD as it gives people the wrong impression that the non-Scouting sources are questionable. --Bduke (Discussion) 02:54, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I still am not satisfied, at the end of the day, falsehoods were in the article and weakly cited claims are being asserted for this and that and I am as yet not satisfied that all is correct.Off2riorob (talk) 16:55, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you really believe that Baden-Powell did ask for two officers, Kenneth Mclaren and Kenneth MacLaren, who then both got wounded at the same place and time? This is clearly in sources that use the two names, as is full details of his wifes. If you can not check Jeal, then you should assume good faith and back down. You could try of course to get a copy of Jeal, but time is running out. That "Fact" tag is prejudicing the AfD by throwing doubt on sources. --Bduke (Discussion) 20:27, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to have to agree that due diligence researching the whole McLaren / MacLaren issue has been done. If the fact tag you put on the article is based solely on the McLaren / MacLaren confusion then it's fair to assume that it should now be removed. If there's further reason please help us understand. I'm not excusing the article's past falsehoods and current nature and I'm still in favor of at the very least deleting, doing more research and recreating if further sources about McLaren's life can be found that establish clear notability outside of his friendships with notable people. Nefariousski (talk) 23:36, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You state that falsehoods were in the article. Were is past tense. Please could you list your current concerns and reasons and perhaps we can have a proper look at them. I'm afraid, though, that you will probably have to accept third-party sources unless you can provide means by which we can pop back in time and check. Mind you, time travel would be primary research... ;) At the moment it looks a little bit to me like you are just being disruptive on a few articles relating to one that has gone through AfD, which I am sure is not the impression you actually want to give. DiverScout (talk) 18:49, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest I had taken this article of my watch-list, my disruptiveness as you claim was the desire to have a strongly cited correct worthwhile article that was brought on by the falsehoods that I discovered in the article and the assumptions presented as fact and not attributed, then the article was speedily being added to and then suddenly the guy had two similar names...I simply wanted to say, hey, hold on...I am fine with it now, the article appears to be having worthwhile content added to it instead of what it was when we arrived, so its all good, please try to assume that I as you want the best for the article, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 04:06, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for clearing that up. I'm glad that your concerns about this article have been addressed. DiverScout (talk) 07:45, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jeal

I think editors are using different versions of Jeal's Baden-Powell— there are four English editions, and all differ.

The content about McLaren becoming the manager for the Boy Scout association is on page 388 of the 2001 edition.

Jeal, Tim (2001), Baden-Powell, Yale University Press, ISBN 0-300-09103-6

---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 20:25, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And the Hutchinson 1989 edition, with the resignation on page 398. It is all about the battle with Pearson for rights of the book and the magazine.

Jeal, Tim (1989), Baden-Powell, Hutchinson, ISBN 0-09-170670-X

--Bduke (Discussion) 21:21, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

His role at Mafeking

It would be interesting to expand that coverage. This book seems to have most detail, but it may be a little hard to find. There's a more rencent book on that siege, but it seems more POV [3] (he is covered in a number of pages there too, according to the index which is viewable on Amazon). Pcap ping 11:12, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]