Talk:Stamboul Train

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Thriller?

I think the description of this novel as a "thriller" and an "entertainment" is rather misleading. The story has elements of a thriller (political intrigue, crime, arrest, escape), but these are not presented in a thriller narrative. Rather than dominating the story, they are subordinate to the psychological dramas of the diverse characters. Though Greene's much later and rather jaundiced introduction does say it was written to "please", it is hard to know how seriously to take this. It seems hardly designed to have popular appeal. There is no protagonist ("hero") and the ending is bleak and anticlimactic (arguably unresolved). Moreover, four of the main characters are outsiders from the point of view of the British public of the time: a foreign revolutionary, a lesbian, a Jew, and a foreign murderer.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:09, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the description of the novel as a "thriller".--Jack Upland (talk) 08:30, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Greene referred to his works as being either "novels" or "entertainments" up to the mid-1950's. "Novels" being what he thought to be works of literature, and "entertainments" being lighter fare. From The Quiet American on he dropped the distinction, on the advice of his publishers and literary friends -- according to some reports, Greene himself recognized at the time that the distinction was becoming spurious.

== Peter NYC (talk) 04:21, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but so what?--Jack Upland (talk) 05:51, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"in fact, the Oostende-Vienna Orient Express"

Ostende-Wien-Orient-Express: red line plus blue extension no. 4

This isn't the fact at all: the destination is Constantinople or Istanbul (both names are used), and the train is never called "Orient Express" in the British edition. The setting is a train that runs from Ostend via Cologne, Passau, Vienna, Budapest, Subotica and Belgrade to Istanbul, with a "slip-coach" separating after Belgrade to terminate at Athens. I suppose there was such a train, not necessarily called the Orient Express (our article Orient Express doesn't mention any variant beginning at Ostend), but I don't have a timetable from that period! Does anyone know? Andrew Dalby 11:50, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm wrong. I take it back. The text above is just fine, except for a couple of missing hyphens. This was the Ostende-Wien-Orient-Express, which ran from 1925 to 1939. See the German article de:Ostende-Wien-Express -- it was an extension of that service, as shown on the map here. Andrew Dalby 12:34, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Orient Express?

In his 1974 introduction, Greene refers to the "Orient Express". The term is also used in the novel, for example, in Part 2 [2], page 83 of the 1974 edition.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:11, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In my second-hand UK Heinemann edition, the list of books goes up to The Quiet American, and it looks to me to be a reprint of an older edition. (I used to be in the publishing and book selling trade in the UK from 1978 on, so am familiar with the way publishers refer to print runs.) There is no printing date or print run number indicator, which suggests a decade before 1970 at the least for this print run. I found "Orient express" with a lower case "e".

In DE Wiki it says "Seit 1931 führte der Ostende-Wien-Express auch die (alte) zweite Wagenklasse. Zeitweilig wurde der Zug in der Zwischenkriegszeit auch als Ostende-Wien-Orient-Express bezeichnet." So the train was referred to "at times" as "Ostende-Wien-Orient-Express," but no exact dates are given. NL Wiki says that the train was called "Ostende-Wien-Orient-Express" after June 1925, when service resumed after WWI. Greene refers to "second class," which jibes with the dates in NL and DE Wiki.

Eric Ambler's protagonist in Uncommon Danger takes the same train, but I can't find my copy, so can't check the name. In his autobiography, Ambler writes that he studied the railway time tables to get the train times right; unlike Greene he didn't travel on the train at that time.

So why not make it "aboard the luxury Ostende-Wien-Orient-Express" which is a lot more accurate than "Orient Express." The only reason I noticed was because I took the train several times, starting at London Victoria on the "boat train" -- not all the way to Istanbul, regrettably -- when I studied in DE and EU a long time ago. It was called the Oostende-Wien-Express then, the "Oo" standing for Oostende station. Peter NYC (talk) 23:09, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Page 83 of the 1974 edition clearly says "Orient Express" in a letter by Miss Warren.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:51, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It does not matter what German Wiki says, unless it cites a reliable source. Guidance on sourcing states that WP is unacceptable as a point of reference. In any case, that sort of petifogging accuracy is not required in a plot summary. Sweetpool50 (talk) 06:51, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The titles of the American edition of the book and of the film clearly show that people thought it was about the Orient Express.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:21, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't that Theoriefindung, which isn't allowed? Who cares what readers think they know when Greene took great care to describe the train: the "Ostend-Cologne-Vienne(sic)-Belgrade-Istanbul" signs, mentioned several times. Who cares that the cover of the original edition shows the livery of the "Ostend-Wien-Orient-Express".

Where was that 1974 edition published BTW? My mid-50's Heinemann was published and printed -- by Heinemann's usual printers at the time -- in the UK.

== Peter NYC (talk) 21:42, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The 1974 edition was published in Britain by Heinemann and Bodley Head.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:47, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would just point out that "Orient Express" appears to have been in the text quite a long time, and it was plainly incorrect. Nobody worried about the incorrect name of the train in an encyclopedia that according to some contributors must achieve scientific standards, but put in the accurate one -- quel choc, quelle horreur!

Sources for the train in DE Wiki:

Albert Mühl: Internationale Luxuszüge. EK-Verlag, Freiburg im Breisgau 1991, S. 77
Eisenbahndirektion Mainz (Hrsg.): Sammlung der herausgegebenen Amtsblätter vom 8. Juli 1899. 3. Jahrgang, Nr. 29. Bekanntmachung Nr. 304, S. 230.
Amtliches Kursbuch westliches Deutschland. Sommerfahrplan 1950. KBS 250.
Kurswagenverzeichnis zum Kursbuch Gesamtausgabe Sommer 1974. KBS 250.
Markus Meinold: Die Lokomotivführer der Preußischen Staatseisenbahn 1880 – 1914. Hövelhof 2008. ISBN 978-3-937189-40-6, S. 129.

Finally, is it pettifogging to expect that editors removing something get their grammar right?

== Peter NYC (talk) 21:21, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

According to Google Books, "Orient Express" is used in the 1932 edition four times:[1].--Jack Upland (talk) 23:45, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How much fun! To be precise — lets, in an encyclopedia aspiring to scientific standards — "Orient Express" appears three times, and "Orient express" three times as well. First I thought the difference had to do with dialogue or a character's writing (in a letter), but no, it is all mixed, without rhyme or reason. One would have thought a writer as careful as Greene would have used "Orient Express" throughout if he had meant the Orient Express.

He carefully notes the signs "Ostend-Vienne-Belgrade-Istanbul" twice though, once specifically on the restaurant car. He also mentions the "slip coach to Athens" twice.

Now, the Orient Express never went via Ostend, Bruges, Bruxelles and Cologne, cities Greene mentions. And funnily enough, the train we must not name, had a "slip coach to Athens" as the map above shows. How much more fun do you want to have with this?

== Peter NYC (talk) 01:49, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This was one of Greene's early novels, so perhaps some carelessness can be expected. Whether or not it should be called the "Orient Express" is really beside the point. Greene called it the "Orient Express" and so did the American publishers and the film-makers. We say The Hound of the Baskervilles is set on Dartmoor, even though by Doyle's description Baskerville Hall couldn't be Dartmoor. We say that A Midsummer Night's Dream is set in Athens, even though that is patent nonsense. Not to mention The Winter's Tale.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:02, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]