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MediaWiki message delivery 00:22, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

WP:Verify, etc.

Hi. You didn't ping me on your comment on Imzadi's talk page, so I didn't see it prior to today. I'm replying here, since I didn't want to clog up Imzadi's page. I'm sorry you feel that way. I happen to think highly of WP, and wish to see it treated as an encyclopedia, not just another wiki, where anybody can add anything. I think that allowing such material weakens WP status to be taken seriously. I can't help if expecting other editors to adhere to WP policy "alienates" them. And now the information has been re-added to the article (M18 road (Pretoria)) with appropriate citations, so the project on the whole, is better off. I would consider that a net positive. I spend my time on other areas than roads, which do not interest me (although I am extremely grateful that it interests other editors). This was not a newbie editor, they have over 6000 edits. If they had an issue, why did they not reach out to me on my talk page? I didn't want you to think I ignored your post on Imzadi's page. I just hadn't seen it. The only reason I did, was the same issue has come up once again, and another editor has reached out to me, User talk:onel5969#Citing the route section on road articles. I've tried to respond politely, but does not seem to be working. Regardless, thanks for your efforts on the project. Onel5969 TT me 16:00, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

WP:NODEADLINE. Yes, information should be cited and follow MOS and be written in proper prose and be comprehensive etc etc. But this is an encyclopedia in progress, and this isn't WP:FAC. If this is such a big deal, then why didn't you go ahead and add the citations yourself? And FWIW, I was seriously considering a report to ANI as well, and I will do so if I see this again (I would consider this blockable, but WP:INVOLVED). --Rschen7754 18:11, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
While I understand NODEADLINE, which is an essay, I tend to give more weight to policy based arguments. It's a big deal cause I care about folks taking WP seriously, and huge blocks of uncited text undermine that. And ANI, if working properly, should give more weight to policy as well. Again, thanks for all the work you put into WP. Take care. Onel5969 TT me 21:02, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
@Onel5969 FYI there is no point thanking people for the work they put in Wikipedia - it will not change their minds Roads4117 (talk) 07:12, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
On the other hand if you never thank anyone you're a heartless dick... Always thank people for the work they put in Wikipedia, it costs you nothing to be nice and makes the community a nice place to be in. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:40, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:44, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

About roads

Good morning, you seem to be an expert editor on road articles from what I read on your talk page, so I felt identified. I may be one of the few Brazilian editors who are interested in this subject and have the knowledge to edit these articles. I would like to be able to do more in this regard, but I confess that, here in Brazil, it's difficult to obtain data on the history of the road, it is like putting together a patchwork quilt. Moreover, it is even difficult to know what to put in an article like this, without having a problem afterwards. I usually write about duplications and economic importance, I don't know what else would be useful in these articles. If you can give me some tips I would appreciate it.200.146.224.241 (talk) 12:41, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) You're on the right track, IP. What I would do is write down some questions that you think the article should answer and then try to answer them with your research and writing.
Questions such as:
  • Why is this road important?
  • When was this road built?
  • Why was it built?
  • Who uses the road?
  • Why was it built?
  • How has this road changed over time?
If you can answer these (and feel free to come up with your own), you'll be on your way to a decent article. Hope this helps. –Fredddie™ 21:40, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Major junctions debate running commentary

Hi Rschen7754, I would just like to say sorry about the running commentary I am doing on the WikiProject Highways chat on the major junctions debate which is happening yet again. I just though it would be useful for editors to see so then they can know which pages they can improve on, by me adding a one or two sentence description of what could be done to improve that article's infobox if an editor wanted to etc. I just thought that if everybody would come together and do a manual clean-up session and correspond with each other over who is doing what articles (I did mention this on that chat a bit further up), rather than programming a bot to do something which can be done manually. I hope that explains where I'm coming from with this, and I will continue to do it if that is ok with you and the other editors. Thanks, Roads4117 (talk) 17:49, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Also, I am going to put this on the WikiProject Highways page so then I don't have to explain myself 10 times to 10 different editors. If you don't want me to do that action for whatever reason then please tell me, and I will take it down :-). Roads4117 (talk) 18:34, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy Seventeenth Adminship Anniversary!

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DYK for M1 (Durban)

On 24 December 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article M1 (Durban), which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that some residents near Higginson Highway believe that a ghost named "Sheila" is the cause of the highway's fatal accidents? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/M1 (Durban). You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, M1 (Durban)), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

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Happy New Year, Rschen7754!

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Rschen7754,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
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"Oil (road)" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Oil (road) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 13 § Oil (road) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 19:59, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

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Segment notability...

I'm done with this mansplaining, do whatever you are going to do. --Rschen7754 02:01, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ahem... "Highways that span multiple jurisdictions may be notable enough to merit multiple articles, one for the highway as a whole, and detail articles about specific sections of the highway. However, this is not automatic. Each article should establish its own notability." Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Roads/Notability#Interstate, U.S. and Primary state highways. Look, I'm trying to play nice and follow the project's own standard operating procedure... This is exactly what you advise doing in User:Rschen7754/FAQ, so what gives? Why the mass of reverts? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Surely you cannot be suggesting that a 1625 mile national road can adequately be covered in 1 article. --Rschen7754 01:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
And surely you can not be suggesting that each segment of that national road as divided by state is independently notable. U.S. Route 82 is also only 20k bytes, its a tiny article so yeah it can all be covered there. Perhaps its best to collapse the smaller articles into it and actually make one decent article instead of a dozen bad ones? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:43, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
Maybe you should do WP:BEFORE before you make the AFDs and waste your time. We need more road articles on English Wikipedia (and on every Wikipedia), not less. --Rschen7754 01:48, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
I've done it... Did you do it before removing the templates? "We regularly send away articles on non-notable routes. We encourage similar mergers with the Rockland County Scenario. Our notability standards are here." and "here" we find "Each article should establish its own notability." not "We need more road articles on English Wikipedia (and on every Wikipedia), not less" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
You do realize that county routes (as was linked to) and national routes are entirely different right? --Rschen7754 01:54, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
The important sentences are the ones on either side of that one. We aren't talking about the national route, we're talking about sub pages for the segment of the national route that just happens to be in each state (aka "detail articles about specific sections of the highway."). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:55, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
Please, continue to educate me about what an article title means and what our notability standards are. --Rschen7754 01:59, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
We can take as long as you need. What part of "Highways that span multiple jurisdictions may be notable enough to merit multiple articles, one for the highway as a whole, and detail articles about specific sections of the highway. However, this is not automatic. Each article should establish its own notability." don't you understand? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:00, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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WP:GEOFEAT and WP:GEOROAD

Hello, Rschen. Per your comment at WT:NGEO, I took a look at WP:Articles for deletion/State Highway 93 (Karnataka). I didn't see where anyone was arguing that the sentence "The inclusion of a man-made geographical feature on maps or in directories is insufficient to establish topic notability" from WP:GEOFEAT should be used to override WP:GEOROAD. The closest thing I saw was where your use of Google Maps was dismissed as a primary source (which is a WP:GNG-style argument).

I randomly looked at a few of the deletion discussions at the archive that you suggested, but couldn't find anything related specifically to WP:GEOFEAT. I'm not sure if you were thinking of a specific other road-related deletion discussion?

After reading a few of these road-related deletion discussions, I think one problem may be in the phrasing of WP:GEOROAD. When I went back and looked at the the discussion that established WP:GEOROAD in 2012, it looks like the argument was that, per WP:ROADOUTCOMES and WP:USRD/P, almost all of the state-level road deletion discussions were "Keep", so notability should be presumed. The problem is that this presumption was expressed as "typically" notable. That is weaker than "presumed", so now several editors want to analyze state-level roads with WP:GNG, rather than making a strong argument against notability required by "presumed".

I'm not sure how to fix this now --- I suspect consensus has changed and the presumption of notability may no longer get consensus. I'm hoping that we can move forward with the refactor, because it will make things clearer, and should not affect the road deletion discussions (which now seem often deadlocked between WP:GEOROAD and WP:GNG :-( ).

What do you think of this? — hike395 (talk) 21:36, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi Hike395, it's been a while. It might have been another AFD, there have been too many lately. As far as overall strategy, I am hesitant to comment about it on a public page. --Rschen7754 21:47, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
Sorry to bring up a sensitive topic. I'll go back to WT:NGEO and talk about the refactor generically. — hike395 (talk) 00:32, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

TT:IR

Hi Rschen7754, how are you? There is something over at Template talk:Infobox road which may be to your interest. Thank you. Roads4117 (talk) 09:02, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

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Overall strategy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

At User talk:Rschen7754/Archive 49#WP:GEOFEAT and WP:GEOROAD you say As far as overall strategy, I am hesitant to comment about it on a public page. Can you explain what you mean by this, and does it relate to the current proposal at the map RFC? BilledMammal (talk) 01:38, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

I should be asking you the same question. As far as mine, it is clearly defined at User:Rschen7754/Without apology. --Rschen7754 01:40, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
That page doesn't explain what is meant by overall strategy, nor why you are hesitant to comment about it on a public page. Can you expand on both of these? If you want to ask me a question I will do my best to answer, but I'm not sure how to answer the question I asked of you as it related to a statement you made. BilledMammal (talk) 01:43, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
What is your overall strategy? What is your end game? I have given mine. What is yours? --Rschen7754 01:44, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
What you have given is your overall goal; it doesn't explain what your overall strategy to achieve that goal is. I would also appreciate an explanation for why you are hesitant to comment about it on a public page.
My overall goal is to base articles on reliable, independent, and secondary sources, without the inclusion of original research. I have no strategy related to this. BilledMammal (talk) 01:47, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
Do lawyers talk publicly about what their strategy is? That is just stupid. To me it looks like your strategy is "delete all 30,000 road articles on Wikipedia". So if that's not what your strategy or endgame is, you might want to clarify and/or adjust course. --Rschen7754 01:50, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
We aren't lawyers. Are you saying that you have engaged in off-wiki discussion to generate a strategy while excluding input from or review by editors who may disagree with that strategy or its intents? BilledMammal (talk) 01:58, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
My thoughts are my thoughts, my strategy is my strategy, and you have no right to force me to share them publicly. This is borderline hounding and it is downright creepy that you are going through people's talk pages and trying to insinuate things. --Rschen7754 02:05, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
My current understanding is that you have a group of editors who are coordinating off-wiki to bring your goal about. Part of this coordination involved writing this RFC. Have I misunderstood?
When this RFC was opened, did you inform the group it had been opened? BilledMammal (talk) 01:20, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
I'm not sure that you realize that most modern RFAs are discussed offwiki well before opening and in the drafting process. Yes, it was drafted with input from a few editors offwiki. I struggled to find time to finish it and Moabdave finished it and opened the RFC, so your last question is a bit odd on several levels. The questions you have asked Moabdave are really none of your business and I am going to close this thread to prevent further harassment. Good day. --Rschen7754 01:47, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

E8

Thanks for your message, I had no idea that on en-wiki sites like SABRE and Wegenwiki are considered as not recommended to use as reference. Looks like I'll have to try searching for official documents. Mkmk101 (talk) 16:50, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Road = route?

Hey Rschen7754. In the past, you've been very useful in helping me understand the views and various aspects of the roads WikiProject, so I was hoping to ask you a question. I'm part of the NPP team and I usually focus my efforts on reviewing redirects. In doing so, I found a newer user has created hundreds of redirects which treat road and route as a synonym of one another. Do you think these redirects are appropriate and should be marked as reviewed? Or does the roads group view the phrasing of road vs route as fundamentally different? Examples:

I felt as though I had seen a conversation before which made me think that some would be opposed to these types of redirects, so any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:57, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

TPS alert. I know very little about European roads. However, I suspect you would likely want to have redirects from one to the other. In the USA the debate over the word route/road/highway is complicated as there are regional preferences for one or the other, usually with no clear favorite. Some states have codified one of those words into state law, with "route" by far being the most common word across such states. For road articles in those states WP:USRD has decided to stick with the word in law for the article title, and have the other words redirect. In other states, state law is ambiguous. WP:USRD tried to defer to what seemed local convention, but it was messy to determine. I would imagine for EU defined routes you would have those very same issues of local variance, codified in some jurisdictions but not others, plus language and translation issues as an extra bonus. So that's why I'd probably have the articles titled "route" and redirects from equivalent titles but with "road" and/or "highway" unless or until some subject matter experts find guidelines that say otherwise. Good luck untangling the spaghetti.Dave (talk) 19:53, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
(talk page stalker), again @Hey man im josh: Yeah what Dave said it spot on. Similarly, we have the United States Numbered Highway System, aka the U.S. Highway System, but our articles are titled U.S. Route 66, etc. Redirects are cheap, so U.S. Highway 66, US 66, U.S. 66, etc. all redirect to the right place. We even have a resource page WP:USRD/R. Would it be a good idea to have something like this for Europe and elsewhere? Probably. –Fredddie™ 23:03, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for the answers @Moabdave and @Fredddie, that helps to clear things up. My confusion stemmed from a misconception about US highway vs route targets, so hearing that it's largely a US issue helps. Hey man im josh (talk) 11:42, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for reaching out and trying to understand first. I think the redirects are reasonable since it's hard to say exactly what someone will type into search. --Rschen7754 00:09, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
Thanks Rschen7754, I appreciate it. I'm glad I get to clear this batch of 241 redirects without concern =) Hey man im josh (talk) 11:47, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 03 April 2023

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:11, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Orginial Research

I see. Original research is when a statement is trivial and has no source according to Wikipedia:No original research. Cwater1 (talk) 21:55, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Responding to trolls

Regarding Baller McGee: I'm not sure if reporting to ANI was the right move, per WP:DENY/WP:RBI. Would it have been better to request revdel on IRC and ask the admin to indef? I'm asking because I come across this sort of thing semi-regularly during RC patrol and I'd like to have a better idea of what the best practice is for dealing with these incidents.

As a side note, adding |indef=yes to any block template that displays You have been blocked temporarily by default causes it to display You have been blocked indefinitely instead.

Thanks, — SamX [talk · contribs · he/him] 03:28, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I did the block without using Twinkle and then when I tried to add the notice I couldn't without unblocking/reblocking. As far as where to report it, it's a reasonable judgment call, though quite frankly I have noticed a lot more stupidity on ANI these days. --Rschen7754 03:49, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
Can't say I disagree, although I've only been editing regularly since October after a very long hiatus. I've always felt like ANI suffers from over-participation and a low signal-to-noise ratio, so I generally don't comment there very often. — SamX [talk · contribs · he/him] 03:56, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Procedural notification

Hi, I and others have proposed additional options at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#RfC_on_a_procedural_community_desysop. You may wish to review your position in that RfC. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:30, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 26 April 2023

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Email

Did you mean to contact me on my Wikipedia talk page? I can enable email, but I must say that I do prefer to remain anonymous for privacy reasons. Bneu2013 (talk) 03:43, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

My mistake. I guess I just wanted to share some candid thoughts about the FAC, I think you renominated it too early. --Rschen7754 04:19, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
I was on the fence about this, but I did go ahead and fix the all the remaining points you posted that I was unable to get to before the previous discussion was closed. If you wanted me to wait until the RfC was closed, then I understand, but if the outcome results in any of the usage of maps being inappropriate, that shouldn't be too difficult to fix. In my opinion, if anyone thinks that Google Maps or any navigational apps are not reliable for describing distances or basic features along roads such as interchanges or intersections, then I say they shouldn't be using these services for navigation. On the other hand, thanks for finding the USDOT map. Bneu2013 (talk) 18:10, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
FAC is a bit of a negotiation, it always was. Sure, sometimes you do have to push back when someone else gets it wrong, but you can't push back on everything. --Rschen7754 00:12, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

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How to write road articles

What happened to your page about how to write road articles? Huggums537 (talk) 00:57, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I chose to delete it under U1. --Rschen7754 01:03, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
Do you happen to have a copy you would email to me or know of a mirror site that has it? Huggums537 (talk) 01:21, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
I have my own personal reasons for deleting it, though perhaps it is on a mirror. --Rschen7754 02:41, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
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