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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Menotti Lerro. As an ATD. Liz Read! Talk! 23:35, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

New Manifesto of Arts

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New Manifesto of Arts (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:GNG, and I couldn't find any appropriate WP:SNG. No independent reliable sources appear to exist in English or Italian. What sources do exist consist entirely of press releases, and opinion articles written by Menotti Lerro. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:35, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, thanks for letting me know. In my opinion this article is about an important, innovative and niche topic. I think it worth to keep it and wait for possible relevant developments. The Manifesto has been also published in magazines and monographs and there are critical articles about it in the magazine "Riscontri" and the magazine "Clandestino" (both already inserted in the this article as reliabe reference). If possible I ask you to keep it but of course I will accept your decision. Best wishes.Gingeksace (talk) 18:35, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete - This article on a artist/poet's manifesto is part of a walled-garden of numerous promotional articles surrounding Menotti Lerro and his various projects, all heavily edited by COI editors. The article should be deleted as WP:PROMO, and it does not meet WP:GNG. Much of the sourcing on this article and the walled-garden of articles lead back to primary sources by Lerro and his former teacher/colleague Andrew Mangham, his publisher, book sales sites, press releases, calendar listings, blogs, user-submitted content and the like. If the article is not deleted, some of the content could be merged with the Menotti Lerro article along with the rest of the WP:WALLEDGARDEN consisting of: Cultural Pyramid of Cilento, Empathism, Cilento Poetry Prize, Il Dottor Faust, Donna Giovanna, l'ingannatrice di Salerno, Augusto Orrel: memorie d'orrore e poesia, and 2084: Il potere dell'immortalità nelle città del dolore. For context on this walled garden, see this:[1]. Netherzone (talk) 23:54, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Dear Netherzone, please try to consider that these articles I did are not promotional: they are just the opera of a poet and scholar who spent all his life studying and working to create peaces of literature. I thought it would have been nice after so much work to put it on Wikipedia and I thought It was a more good job to link them as possible (I guess it is what you call Walled-garden). There are monographs about his work from more academic teachers (see Francesco D'Episcopo two volumes and Andrew Mangham; there is a thesis dissertation discussed from University of Palermo, there are several articles in magazines (also very relevant magazines as Nuovi Argomenti, and other books: see Sara Cudia "Menotti Lerro. L'innovazione del mito", Maria Rosaria La Marca "Gli occhi sulla critica". In addition there are first prizes and presentations in places of high culture: National libraries both in Italy and abroad as special guest. I am not sure if all my articles meet the necessary criteria to be on Wikipedia but please it is not necessary to stress words like "promotional" or to search for old proposal to have the work of this author on WP and mix that with my articles. In my opinion, I just think It is pretty nice and honest work of literature, appreciated by critics and people and often innovative. I invite you to be more comprehensive with it. Thanks a lot. Best wishes. Gingeksace (talk) 11:58, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Netherzone Could you please provide a detailed source analysis to substantiate your walled graden claim for the rest of us. Listing the sources and vaguely waving them off as a walled garden doesn't give us enough context to evaluate independence, and given the language barrier of Italian language sources it would be helpful to have it spelled out where the exact conflicts of interest lie for each source. Thanks.4meter4 (talk) 19:07, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello 4meter4! Here is my source analysis below. Please check out the link I posted above as well for the backstory on the walled garden (or if you prefer, "suite of connected articles") For context on this walled garden, see this:[2].}}. BTW, I know we do not know each other, but I want to assure you I'm not a drive-by !voter at AfDs, and I do not "vaguely wave" things off. I'm a serious good-faith participant and have engaged in earnest with the article creator to try to clean things up in this "suite of articles". Best regards,
Source assessment table:
Source Independent? Reliable? Significant coverage? Count source toward GNG?
https://www.infocilento.it/2022/08/02/vii-edizione-del-premio-nazionale-cilento-poesia-a-salento/ No Press release and event listing, clearly marked Comunicato Stampa, which means Press Release Yes town website No it's a press release authored by the artist (note wording "we will also talk about Empathism" a term coined by the artist himself ✘ No
https://riscontri.net/2021/02/22/empatismo-scuola-empatica-movimento-letterario-artistico-filosofico-e-culturale-sorto-in-italia-nel-2020/ No Authored by Menotti Lerro, content is from the Headquarters of Contemporary Center of the Arts ”, its top management. (A Menotti Lerro project), listing the signers of the manifesto authored by Lerro ~ The artist/poet's publisher/magazine is RIscontri, this is book sales promotion. The site states that "If you are an author and wish to promote your work, send your application for “In the library“, our literary report column." No Reiteration of Lerro's work; likely user-generated content, as he is listed as the "Initiator" ✘ No
https://riscontri.net/2021/02/22/la-scuola-empatica-intervista-a-a-menotti-lerro/ No Interview authored by Menotti Lerro No Primary source, the interview is filled with content like "my declarations" have resulted in the manifesto, "I refer in the "New Manifesto", etc. No It's him talking about himself. The short intro does not contain editorial content. ✘ No
https://www.infocilento.it/2020/11/30/in-libreria-lantologia-della-scuola-empatica-movimento-artistico-letterario-con-epicentro-nel-cilento/ ~ Seems to be taken from Press release, illustrated with a page from Lerro's manifesto/movement, containing a list of people who signed his "Manifesto" Yes town website ~ Soem editorial content but a reiteration of various press releases and the content of the manifesto itself and his "Empathic" movement. ~ Partial
https://www.milanotoday.it/eventi/accademia-di-brera-convegno-nuovo-manifesto-sulle-arti-.html No This is an event poster published by Menotti Lerro Yes The source itself a news source, It's an event listing that clearly states that it is a "new poster on Lerro" for an event occurring on a specific date, that includes Menotti Lerro and his sister Lucrezia Lerro and other speakers No Event announcement ✘ No
https://bookriot.com/literary-movements-youve-never-heard-of/ No Paid promotional content: "This content contains affiliate links. When you buy through these links, we may earn an affiliate commission." No Blog? Clickbait, user-generated content, "We create content-driven communities around niche interests that delight fans and celebrate their diversity. Sometimes we are serious and sometimes we’re silly. Some of our contributors are pros. Many of them aren’t." ~ one paragraph in the article ✘ No
https://www.affaritaliani.it/culturaspettacoli/empatia-806174.html No Written by Menotti Lerro, clearly states: L'opinione de Menotti Lerrohttps://www.affaritaliani.it/culturaspettacoli/empatia-806174.html No Self-describe by Lerro as a "new great literary-philosophical movement" No This is Menotti Lerro writing about himself and his manifesto, and "movement" ✘ No
https://www.cilentonotizie.it/dettaglio/48144/la-fondazione-giambattista-vico-aderisce-al-movimento-empatico-di-menotti-lerro/ Yes Town website Yes town website No Press release announcement/ calendar listing for Menotti Lerro's art center ✘ No
https://www.wikipoesia.it/wiki/La_Scuola_Empatica No Wiki site, user submitted/generated content No Basically a wikipedia-like mirror site ? a web host for his manifesto, this is not journalism about him or his manifesto ✘ No
https://www.rivistaclandestino.com/nuovo-manifesto-sulle-arti-di-menotti-lerro-e-antonello-pelliccia/ ~ An event listing by his publisher/distributor announcing the opening of a cafe at Lerro's art center ? Authored by Menotti Lerro No Written by Lerro, his manifesto ✘ No
Error: a source must be specified ? Unknown
https://www.rivistaclandestino.com/scuola-empatica-genesi-e-sviluppo-di-una-nuova-corrente-artistico-letteraria/ ~ Largely taken from Lerro's writings. ? No byline ? uncertain ? Unknown
https://poesia.corriere.it/2019/10/21/domani-a-edimburgo-menotti-lerro-terra-una-lettura-di-sue-poesie-e-presentera-il-nuovo-manifesto-delle-arti-gia-lanciato-in-italia-mesi-fa/ ? unverifiable, behind a paywall ? behind a paywall ? unverifiable, behind a paywall ? Unknown
Lerro, Menotti (2020). La Scuola Empatica. Borgomanero: Ladolfi Publishing No Written by Lerro ? primary source, written by the person who wrote the manifesto ? ? written by the artist/poet himself ✘ No
https://poesia.corriere.it/2021/02/25/i-cento-della-scuola-empatica-nuovo-movimento-per-le-arti-fondato-da-menotti-lerro-un-libro-con-il-manifesto-e-le-testimonianze/ ? unverifiable, behind a paywall ? unverifiable ? behind a paywall ? Unknown
https://cultura.comune.salerno.it/web/eventi.aspx?url=giornate-europee-del-patrimonio-2021-empatismo No Event calendar listing, from press release ? press release calendar listing No event listing ✘ No
https://www.corrieredisalerno.it/103675/turismo/eventi/giornate-europee-del-patrimonio-nel-weekend-a-salerno.html No Event calendar listing ? n/a event listing No event calendar ✘ No
https://www.nuovairpinia.it/2021/09/24/musei-aperti-ad-avellino-e-salerno-sabato-sera-e-domenica/ ~ Event listing for a press conference by Lerro, ? auto_awesome Showing translation for Nuova Irpinia - Il giornale delle zone interne Nuova Irpinia Annuncio Pubblicitario Translate instead Nuova Irpinia - Il giornale delle zone interneNuova Irpinia Annuncio Pubblicitario 82 / 5,000 Translation results star_border Nuova Irpinia - The newspaper of the inland areas Nuova Irpinia Advertisement No Event listing - seems to be an advertisement/event listing at a local church ✘ No
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}.

Netherzone (talk) 21:38, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Netherzone, I do not understand why do you mix old things and discussions with my articles...
(Does this author earned a "stigma" forever because of past situations not related with my articles? That you are more times suggesting to check happened 6/7 years ago and I see those articles were already deleted... (Maybe, indeed, it is not the case to get now that to prove it is all one situation...).
By the way, in the last years the author grow a lot (monographs have been published about him and magazines guest articles about him too) and maybe now we should consider just article by article without mixing everything. I am sure you are in good faith but please consider I am in good faith too. I create articles thinking there were enough requirements (I am not so expert as you to understand it...); Maybe I was wrong and I will accept it, but I just ask you do not talk of "promotional", "payments", "walled-garden" (I even do not know what a walled garden is...). I just create articles thinking there were requirements, thats all. Please just help when possible to save the article, to improve it, or ask for deletion if it is not possible to save it... It is not a problem, but please do not look too far in my simple and honest collaboration to WP.
Thanks a lot. All the best! Gingeksace (talk) 22:30, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Gingeksace if there are reliable sources that are secondary to Lerro and/or Pelliccia, could you please provide them? Prior to nominating this article, I attempted to search for sources about this manifesto, and all I could find in English and Italian were either press releases or opinion articles by Lerro. Those sources do not meet the criteria of our general notability guideline because they are not independent from Lerro and/or Pelliccia. Monographs could be extremely helpful for this, if they were published in a reputable research journal and subject to peer review as part of that process. The magazine guest articles might be helpful, if they were written by subject-matter experts and again are independent from Lerro and/or Pelliccia.
However as things stand right now, I cannot find any such sources. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:09, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sideswipe9th ok Thanks. It's fine.
Anyway, I thought for example they were good example of reliable sources, aren't they?:
They seems to be experts and indipendent from Lerro...
Regards. Gingeksace (talk) 09:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Gingeksace we have had numerous conversations about your COI, and the walled-garden of articles on your talk page, on my talk page and on various article talk pages. You had also agreed that it was best to fold (redirect, selectively merge) several of the articles into the Menotti Lerro article, as seen here:[3]. There are many other examples but I'd rather not post a huge wall-of-text. I'm surprised you have changed your mind about that plan. I've been patiently working with you in good faith and I've spent a lot of time cleaning up some of the promotional wording. I have never disputed Lerro's notability, although it is curious he does not have an article on Italian Wikipedia. IMO, all the articles you have created about Lerro's various projects except perhaps Empathism should be folded into the Menotti Lerro article. Perhaps this metaphor will resonate with you: think of Menotti Lerro as a planet, and the other articles are like moons or satellites orbiting around the planet. It is not necessary to have an article on each of those satellites. Does that make sense? Netherzone (talk) 15:31, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Netherzone, I have not changed my mind. Just trying to understand better the mechanisms... I have only said I am not making any "promotion" and I had not really idea about what a walled garden was... And I have tried to show what in my opinion could be considered reliable (I repeat, just to learn if I am right or not, not to force it...). By the way I have been invited to discuss it therefore I thouth It was good to do it...
As I always said, I accept your decisions: I know you are more expert than me so I trust your judgment (but I like to learn...).
Regards. Gingeksace (talk) 15:55, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Gingekscace, Regarding the sources you have kindly list above, unfortunately none of them are independent coverage. The authors of these citations are all affiliated with Lerro and have all are signed "Empathic Masters" who have joined Lerro's Empathism movement spelled out in Lerro's Manifesto[4].
1) Written by Franco Mussida, a member of the Empathism movement founded by Lerro and a signed member of the Manifesto by Lerro. - Not independent.
2) Blog post - user generated content, written by Ottavio Rossani who is a signed member of the Manifesto as well as a member of Empathism, both of which are Lerro projects. - Not independent.
3) Written by Mauro Afro Borella, a signed member of the Manifesto and Empathism - Not independent.
4.) Blog post Carlo Di Legge's Blog - he's also a signed member of the Manifesto and Empathism. - Not independent.
5.) This was written by Francesco D'Episcopo, who is a signed member of Empathism. - Not Independent.
6.) written by Diana Nese, a signed member of the Manifesto and Empathism. - Not independent. Netherzone (talk) 15:57, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thanks! It is nice for me to understand it for example...
All the best Gingeksace (talk) 15:59, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Gingeksace, I appreciate your patience and willingness to learn. Netherzone (talk) 16:39, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:46, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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