Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nouthetic Counseling

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Between keep and merge: arguments for merging appear to be more editing-related in nature, and therefore can be pursued in the future on the talk page if desired. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 05:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nouthetic Counseling

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Contested proposed deletion, not mine. This would appear to me to be a neologism of limited use, only two authors are cited and none of them appear to use the term as the primary means to identify what they are doing. ("Biblical" and "Christian counselling" appear to be the more obvious words mentioned in the article itself.)

This may also be a POV-pushing and sectarian content fork of the main article pastoral counselling, although that stub could use some expansion. This article seems to imply that the proponents' way is Biblical (and, of course, that other approaches to pastoral counselling are not Biblical.)

This came up at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Evangelical Renewal Therapy, and so I am nominating it for consistency's sake. Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 00:31, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions.
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Spirituality-related deletion discussions.
keep if there are aactually degrees in it, we need an article. DGG ( talk ) 02:31, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~Speedy~~ Strong keep. Notice that there is even a National Association of Nouthetic Counselors. This is a significant perspective in the area - far from being a content fork, it's a recognised approach to counselling, to be distinguished from what is usually called "Christian counselling". We could rename the article biblical counseling, but "nouthetic counseling" doesn't really fall under WP:NEO - it's simply what it is usually called. St Anselm (talk) 02:47, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
keep It is one of many notable Christian Counseling modalities which should be included in the Wikipedia. Prsaucer1958 (talk) 02:57, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and redirect to Christian counseling - The Christian counseling article can deal with this and similar subtopics. Addressing this subtopic there will help avoid POV. (Pastoral counseling could also work, but I think that article potentially is more broad than Chirsitian counseling.) Novaseminary (talk) 03:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment but very often Nouthetic counseling is used, not as a subset of "Christian counseling," but as an alternative to "Christian counseling". Christian counseling, as its article states, "draws upon psychology and Christian teaching." Nouthetic counseling, on the other hand, wants to use the Bible alone. Which means that the first sentence of this article as it currently stands ("Nouthetic Counseling is a form of Christian counseling") is misleading. St Anselm (talk) 03:53, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. It is misleading; "nouthetic" counselling is in one sense a sort of Christian counselling, but its proponents draw a distinction between their approach and others. This is one reason why I tend to think that these several approaches would be better served by a single article, where their differences would appear in higher contrast. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 14:06, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - My vote is not a terribly strong one, but it does seem that the person who the article claims coined the phrase viewed it as a form of Christian counseling. Here is a book he wrote. The Christian counseling article is unsourced anyway. And even if there are variants, it doesn't mean that each should have a separate article. Novaseminary (talk) 04:04, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and redirect per Novaseminary. SnottyWong talk 01:40, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, 1,120 google book results from 1970 onwards does not make a WP:NEO. --John Vandenberg ^(chat) 02:49, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - But why not merge into Christian counseling? The person who coined the phrase wrote a book titled: The Christian Counselor's Manual: The Practice of Nouthetic Counseling. To me this implies that at least one person significantly associated with the concept viewed it as a subset or synonym of Christian counseling. Per Smerdis of Tlön, even if it is one of several approaches, I think context would be improved by addressing them all in one article. Novaseminary (talk) 02:58, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response - Actually, it's because in the last 30 years the terminology has developed, and Christian counseling is now used to refer to the theory and practice of people such as Larry Crabb. Admittedly, several his books have the phrase "biblical counseling" in their titles. Which is why it's good to keep "Nouthetic" in this article name. St Anselm (talk) 03:41, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.