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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. MBisanz talk 00:29, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Red Sox-Rays rivalry

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Red Sox-Rays rivalry (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Contested WP:PROD. The Article highlights a baseball rivalry between the Boston Red Sox and Tampa Bay Rays. Should we keep this? –BuickCenturyDriver 10:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I don't know. You're the one nominating it. Please provide a reason on why you think it should be deleted, or why you believe a discussion is warranted. We're not here to mindread. - Mgm|(talk) 12:21, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. -- the wub "?!" 13:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - If you weren't sure, why did you remove the PROD? And if you're not sure, then it's probably not notable enough. Anyway, I initially PRODed this article, since it's about a rivalry of dubious notability, based on a single season when these two teams were the two best teams in the American League East. It narrates a few episodes but otherwise there's no information about the rivalry itself. --Mosmof (talk) 13:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Any time two teams compete in the same division for the same title and playoff spots, there is significant rivalry. The only issue in this case is the fact that the 2008 season was the first time the Rays were ever in significant playoff contention. The article needs cleanup and referencing, but numerous sources [1] [2] [3] [4] exist. Rklear (talk) 20:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. By that logic, we should have articles on every divisional and localized interleague "rivalry" that exists. Not every rivalry is as notable as Red Sox-Yankees, or Dodgers-Yankees, or Cubs-White Sox to warrant its own article. By virtue of the fact that the Rays interrupted the Yankees-Red Sox dance that dominated the AL East for most of this decade, of course any match with the Rays and either the Red Sox or Yankees will become an intense showdown. Merge useful content into Tampa Bay Rays, Boston Red Sox, 2008 Tampa Bay Rays season, 2008 Boston Red Sox season. KuyaBriBriTalk 20:42, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to this,[5] there were a few interesting incidents between the teams before 2008, but you'd never know that by reading the article in question. It basically serves as a recap of what happened last year, which can be summarized in the teams' season articles. For now, I'm going to say delete. I just don't see how this can be viewed as a real rivalry after just one season, and the article doesn't make a case as it stands. Giants2008 (17-14) 03:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I guess it would help if there was some sort of guideline for determining what is and isn't a notable rivalry. It's obvious there are rivalries, and then rivalries. For example, Rays and Red Sox were undeniably rivals in 2008, and you wouldn't have much trouble finding articles discussing the two teams as rivals. But any reference to rivalry is limited to the 2008 season. If the Rays plummet back to earth, I imagine they will cease to be rivals, whereas the Yankees and Red Sox will most likely remain rivals even if one team is in last place and the other is headed to the World Series. Also, "rivalry" is sort of indiscriminate/undefined - two teams in the same division are, by definition, rivals. But that doesn't mean they're rivals. I have similar concerns about Battle of Ohio (MLB) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Mets-Braves rivalry (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), and Mets–Phillies rivalry (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), and I'm curious to see what arguments are raised for keep or delete. --Mosmof (talk) 05:59, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — neuro(talk) 00:00, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete. They may be in the same the division, but they're over 1000 miles apart and have only really played one notable series. It's not exactly Duke-North Carolina... Hippopotamus (talk) 04:12, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Hippopotamus. The Red Sox and Yankees are one of the most significant rivalries in professional sporting and have a history going back to the beginning of modern baseball, the first time the Red Sox and Rays played each other in the postseason was last year. There might be some ill-will on the part of Red Sox Nation, but common sense says that a single postseason defeat isn't enough for a true rivalry to form. I'm not saying that it isn't brewing, but Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, articles are written on already notable subjects, not ones that might become so someday. -Senseless!... says you, says me 04:22, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep. While WP:NOT#CRYSTAL, it's pretty clear the two teams are going to be rivals this year, too, and it makes little sense to delete an article that is on the borderline of notability when that notability is fairly certain in the near future. The article can be improved by discussing the previous ten years, the Rays signing Wade Boggs, etc. But I can also see an argument for consolidating this and similar articles into American League East Division rivalries, where notability is less of a close question. Incidentally, the Red Sox/Yankees rivalry in the sense Mr. Senseless is talking about only dates back about 30 years: the Red Sox and Yankees were almost never good at the same time until the mid-70s. THF (talk) 08:13, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep- While I understand the need for sports fans to compare every rivalry to Yankees-Red Sox or UNC-Duke, that isn't the standard by which articles are determined to be notable or not at Wikipedia. A topic only need be covered by independent, third party sources. If the rivalry only existed in 2008, perhaps it would make sense to rename/move the article to 2008 Red Sox-Rays Rivalry or something of the sort. There is no reason or precedent that shows that these articles should be treated any differently than any other article in Wikipedia. In my opinion, the strong feelings against this and articles like it are driven more by personally-held sports opinions/emotions than Wikipedia's standards and community-accepted practices. SMSpivey (talk) 06:31, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete This should be covered by Wikinews, not Wikipedia.--Sloane (talk) 20:19, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete for now. As of now the only thing that makes this a rivalry is that they ran very close last season for the AL East and the then in the ALCS. One season doesn't make it a rivalry. BUC (talk) 09:58, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I haven't seen much in the way of policy discussion here, mostly point of view on what constitutes a rivalry. If someone (the nominator himself as a good faith gesture, or Rklear who seems to have taken the time to research this) would take the time to actually add references, this article would fit even the most strict definitions for inclusion (WP:N, WP:V). I think this AfD is premature and the issues would have been best worked out on the article itself and it's talk page. By the way, a good copy edit and redesign of the article wouldn't hurt either. Mstuczynski (talk) 13:00, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'll be making some general improvements to the article as part of WP:ARS. Magnetic Rag (talk) 21:46, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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