Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Slavic diaspora

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. The general consensus is that this article not only currently fails NPOV (which is not a valid reason for deletion), but that the nature of the subject makes that problem fundamentally unfixable (which is). The only "keep" argument does nothing to refute this. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 06:55, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Slavic diaspora

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WP:OR WP:UNSOURCED WP:CROSSCAT of language family (Slavic languages) and geography (countries where the majority of the population is a native speaker of a language which belongs to the Slavic langue family). These are then linked to an arbitrary group of nationality-based diaspora articles, ethnicity-based diaspora articles, and diaspora articles which are a mix of nationality and ethnicity. For the sake of argument, I will assume that "ethnic Belarusian" etc. means "a native speaker of Belarusian", and therefore a native speaker of a Slavic language. Under that interpretation, all nationality-based articles shouldn't be in this DP, because that includes all people with Belarusian nationality, regardless of what their native language is. E.g. Lithuanians in Belarus who move to, say, Karakalpakstan, are part of the nationality-based "Belarusian diaspora", but not the ethnicity-based "Belarusian diaspora". But even if we purge it all and only keep the purely ethnicity-based diaspora articles, there is a long series of precedents which have confirmed that language family is a WP:NONDEFINING WP:CROSSCAT.

Follow-up to long series of precedents, including but not limited to the deletion (or merging/renaming) of:

Some related ongoing discussions:

Category:Serb diaspora (nominated for merging)
Category:Slavic-American society (nominated for upmerging)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Slavic cultures (nominated for deletion)

Examination whether each article is nationality-based, ethnicity-based, or a mix

Slavic diaspora may refer to any of the following diasporas of Slavs:

Belarusian diaspora: The Belarusian diaspora refers to emigrants from the territory of Belarus as well as to their descendants.
- Conclusion: Nationality-based.
Bosnian diaspora: The Bosnian diaspora consists of Bosnian emigrants of all ethnicities and their descendants. Bosnians clarifies: As a common demonym, the term Bosnians refers to all inhabitants/citizens of the country, regardless of any ethnic, cultural or religious affiliation.
- Conclusion: Nationality-based.
Bosniak diaspora: redirects to Bosniaks, which are a South Slavic ethnic group
- Conclusion: Ethnicity-based.
Bulgarian diaspora: Map of the Bulgarian diaspora in the world (includes people with Bulgarian ancestry or citizenship).
- Conclusion: Both, so it includes non-ethnic Bulgarians.
Croatian diaspora: The Croatian diaspora (...) consists of communities of ethnic Croats and/or Croatian citizens living outside Croatia.
- Conclusion: Both, so it includes non-ethnic Croats.
Czech diaspora The Czech diaspora refers to both historical and present emigration from the Czech Republic, as well as from the former Czechoslovakia and the Czech lands (including Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia).
- Conclusion: Nationality-based.
Macedonian diaspora: Macedonian diaspora in the world (includes people with Macedonian ancestry or citizenship).
- Conclusion: Both, so it includes non-ethnic Macedonians.
Polish diaspora: The Polish diaspora comprises Poles and people of Polish heritage or origin who live outside Poland.
- Conclusion: Both, so it includes non-ethnic Poles.
Russian diaspora: The Russian diaspora is the global community of ethnic Russians.
- Conclusion: Ethnicity-based.
Serbian diaspora: Serbian diaspora refers to Serbian emigrant communities in the diaspora. The existence of a numerous diaspora of Serbian nationals is mainly a consequence of either economic or political (coercion or expulsion) reasons.
- Conclusion: Nationality-based.
Serb diaspora Serb diaspora (Serbian: Српска дијаспора/Srpska dijaspora) refers to the diaspora communities of ethnic Serbs. It is not to be confused with the Serbian diaspora, which refers to migrants, regardless of ethnicity, from Serbia.
- Conclusion: Ethnicity-based.
Ukrainian diaspora The Ukrainian diaspora comprises Ukrainians and their descendants who live outside Ukraine around the world, especially those who maintain some kind of connection to the land of their ancestors and maintain their feeling of Ukrainian national identity within their own local community. A bit unclear, mixed, but mostly ethnicity-based. On the other hand, Ukrainian diaspora#Spain notes: According to official Spanish statistics, there are 112,728 Ukrainians in Spain as of late 2019, being the 11th biggest foreign nationality found in Spain. So this is about nationality again. Meanwhile, the article contains the phrase "ethnicity" 6 times and "nationality" 5 times, both mostly in the references.
- Conclusion: So this is another mix of ethnicity-based and nationality-based diaspora.

Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:55, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see how one can infer it from the link to the article Ukrainians, but the quoted lead text from Ukrainian diaspora actually does not mention ethnicity at all. It merely says “Ukrainians”, a term that my dictionary doesn’t define by ethnicity either: “a native or inhabitant of Ukraine, or a person of Ukrainian descent.” —Michael Z. 14:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Language, Ethnic groups, and Europe. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:55, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, North Macedonia, Poland, Russia, Serbia, and Ukraine. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:18, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete In addition to the arguments above all Slavs except some Poles or Belarusians are technically 'Slavic diaspora' as they are 'scattered across regions which are separate from [their] geographic place of origin'. --Nk (talk) 06:28, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not opposing, but the rationale is not sound, because it relies on artificially narrow definitions based on ethnicity, a concept introduced by the nomination and not inherently defining of the subjects or the article.

For example, my dictionary says diaspora is the dispersion of a people from their homeland, and does not restrict it applying to an ethnicity. Similarly, for example, Ukrainian diaspora refers to “Ukrainians and their descendants,” further explaining that that is “those who maintain some kind of connection to the land of their ancestors and maintain their feeling of Ukrainian national identity within their own local community.” In fact, many national communities are not solely or even primarily based on ethnicity. The definition above is a very good one, because it seems to remain consistently applicable during a period when many sources have stated that Ukraine has significantly and rapidly changed from a nation based on ethnic nationalism to a more unified civic one that includes a number of ethnic, linguistic, cultural and religious groups (including Ukrainian and Russian speakers, Crimean Tatars, Jews, &c).

I thought it worth discussing because many Wikipedia discussions focus unreasonable on unduly atomizing ethnicity and nationality and therefore fail to reflect RS’s on related subjects.

This article is not a disambiguation page as it purports to be, because there is no clash of article titles. It is more like a category listing. Diasporas appear to be categorized geographically, as in Category:European diasporas, but there’s no reason they couldn’t also be categorized by language groups, as this is a common way to characterize and group peoples, countries, and states. —Michael Z. 14:24, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with all those observations, actually. Ukrainians can be defined in an ethnic and in a civic way, and each individual may have a different emphasis; it depends on who you ask. But I think the civic approach is most applicable in the 21st century, as there is a strong and widespread sense of civic virtue, and inclusion of diversity (as mentioned Ukrainian and Russian speakers, Crimean Tatars, Jews, &c which is all true), in Ukrainian society and those who fled or migrated abroad. Contemporary Ukrainian culture is not so much based on ethnocentric ideas such as the Ukrainian language, let alone on being "Slavic" (or being "Eastern Slavic" or "Eastern Orthodox" or clinging to Cyrillic etc. as an unchanging undeniable part of one's identity, as it is in Bulgaria, for example), for that matter), as it is about striving to be a sovereign society that chooses its own way, and develop in its own manner within the wider European and global context. Therefore, reductionist linguistic groupings of the Ukrainians and their diaspora as "Slavic" do not really do justice to the complex and nuanced situation as it can be objectively observed, nor to the way it is subjectively experienced and expressed. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:26, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All true. But Slavic, as in Slavic peoples, refers to a particular set of national groups. There’s no reason to define the category narrowly as “Slavic-language-speaking diaspora,” which would be a less likely interpretation to me. My dictionary has a main definition, meaning of or relating to the language family branch in C&EE, and a subsense, meaning relating to or denoting the peoples who speak a Slavic language. It is quite normal to interpret Slavic as meaning how it’s intended in this article title.

[Still not arguing to keep, just talking about the semantics.] —Michael Z. 15:06, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I think the confusion might come from how you use the term "national groups" (in an anthropolical / sociological sense?) while I use the term "nationality" in a legal sense.

Let me try to illustrate this with an example. (I hope this will be realistic, and not insensitive, because this is stuff that has been happening, and people should be aware). Suppose that a Crimean Tatar woman with Ukrainian nationality, born and raised in Crimea, with Crimean Tatar as her first language, Russian as her second, Ukrainian as her third, gets a job in Simferopol (mostly speaking Russian at work and in society), but has to flee to Kyiv in March 2014 when she rebuilds her life (e.g. she gets a new job, wherein Ukrainian becomes increasingly important for communication at work and in society), and then has to flee to Poland in February 2022, where she has to start all over again in Warsaw, hoping to return to Kyiv (and if possible Crimea) some day in the future.

Now, if we were to define "Ukrainian" very narrowly in ethnolinguistic terms, she would not be counted as part of the "Ukrainian diaspora", and thus the "Slavic diasporas", just because Ukrainian is not her first language (nor is Russian, for that matter). However, if we define "Ukrainian" in broad, civic, nationality-based terms, then of course she is a Ukrainian. Whether her first language is part of this or that language family doesn't really matter; it has no bearing on her career (WP:OCEGRS). Having Ukrainian nationality, however, has been WP:DEFINING for her whole life (probably more than Crimean Tatar as her first language, let alone Russian as second and Ukrainian as third). I don't know if we should consider this hypothetical woman part of "Ukrainians" as a "national group" the way you are describing it, but I would regard her as neither an "ethnic Ukrainian" nor as a "Slavic" person, but she certainly is a Ukrainian national, part of the Ukrainian diaspora in Poland. Good day, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:28, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I see no good reason to delete, nor for the deletions of the other categories and articles, what a terrible trend.★Trekker (talk) 19:31, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's essentially saying you do not accept community consensus, and that core Wikipedia policies such as WP:OR WP:UNSOURCED WP:CROSSCAT are "no good reasons", while not citing any policy or guideline in favour of a keep. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 03:14, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete the closing admin should be aware this is a dab page and basically its a NPOV slav nationalist thing claiming a single racial identity for a set of nationality based articles where the affected peoples reflect the same cross sections of ethnicities and language groups found across the FSU. As a dab this in inherently NPOV and must be removed. Spartaz ^Humbug! 06:44, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.