User talk:Bula Hailan

Welcome

Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki-editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

• Entry layout (EL) is a detailed policy on Wiktionary's page formatting; all entries must conform to it. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing same-language entry, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
• Check out Language considerations to find out more about how to edit for a particular language.
• Our Criteria for Inclusion (CFI) defines exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary; the most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
• If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
• If you have any questions, bring them to Wiktionary:Information desk or ask me on my talk page.
• Whenever commenting on any discussion page, please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) which automatically produces your username and timestamp.
• You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage to indicate your self-assessed knowledge of languages.

Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! --Apisite (talk) 09:51, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Happy New Year

I would like to thank you for your work on Manchu so far. Happy New Year! RcAlex36 (talk) 05:56, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! And happy new year to you too! Bula Hailan (talk) 06:02, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Manchu verbs

Are you familiar with Manchu verbs? I envision a Manchu conjugation table for verbs like the one we have for Japanese verbs.RcAlex36 (talk) 06:48, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I am still learning the Manchu language atm, but I would definitely like to help with that. I happen to have a Manchu course book written in Japanese that contains a comparison between Manchu and Japanese verb conjugations, and I feel that the two language are pretty similar in terms of verbal inflectional categories. I am thinking of working on the current template for Japanese verbs, changing some parameters and then use it for Manchu. But I actually don't know much about templates and programming in general, and I am not sure where to start at first. Maybe I can write something in plain language (or generate a conjugation table for a Manchu verb) in a sandbox or anything like that, and see if anyone knows how to turn that into a wiki template? It seems to me that Manchu verb conjugation is basically playing with suffixes, so generating a single table won't be difficult. The only problem may be vowel harmony, where vowels in the suffix change depending on the phonology of the stem, so we may need to create multiple templates to fully cover all the possible cases. Bula Hailan (talk) 13:11, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Twelve Nights in Manchu

How could the words "The Twelve Nights" be translated into Manchu? --Apisite (talk) 04:16, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

@Apisite: I think the translation should be juwan juwe dobori, because dobori here denotes an inanimate object. In such case, it is not followed by any plural suffixes. Some examples include nadan inggeni (seven days) and ninggun moo (six trees). Another famous example is juwan juwe gargan (the twelve earthly branches). Bula Hailan (talk) 04:34, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Manchu clan names

I can't seem to find attestations for clan names like ᡤᡡᠸᠠᠯᡤᡳᠶᠠ (瓜爾佳) and ᡧᡠᠮᡠᡵᡠ (舒穆祿) in Manchu. Any idea where they can be found? RcAlex36 (talk) 18:04, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: There is a book called 御製八旗滿洲氏族通譜. It is a compilation of genealogy books of many Manchu clans, including both clans that you mentioned. Chapters 1 to 4 are about 瓜爾佳氏, and Chapter 6 is about 舒穆祿氏. You can look up 八旗滿洲氏族通譜 on Chinese Wikipedia. On the page there seems to be links to both Chinese and Manchu versions of the book. I am not sure if the links still work though.

Bula Hailan (talk) 18:33, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

齊齊哈爾

Is the Manchu word for Qiqihar ᠴᡳᠴᡳᡥᠠᡵ (cicihar) or ᠴᡳᠴᡳᡤᠠᡵ (cicigar)? Chinese Wikipedia lists the latter. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:48, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: On A comprehensive Manchu-Chinese dictionary, both spellings are presented, and ᠴᡳᠴᡳᡤᠠᡵ (cicigar) is considered by the dictionary an alternative spelling of ᠴᡳᠴᡳᡥᠠᡵ (cicihar). This seems to be a common feature of Manchu phonology, e.g. ᡳᠯᡥᠠ (ilha) and ᡳᠯᡤᠠ (ilga). Bula Hailan (talk) 02:50, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Oirat word for 烏里雅蘇臺

Hi, I'm trying to figure out what the Oirat word for 烏里雅蘇臺 in the second column on the lower half of the page on the left (under 托忒字) is (in Clear Script). The second half seems to be ᡇᡐᠠᡅ, but I'm not sure about the first half. Could you please advise? Thanks a lot! RcAlex36 (talk) 13:47, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Not sure about it but maybe ᡇ‍ᠯ‍ᠠ‍ᡖ‍ᠰ (ulaws)? The last one of the first part looks weird to me, but I guess it has to be s. Bula Hailan (talk) 16:29, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Place names

Hi, please note that place names are subject to WT:CFI, so don't create entries for place names that are scarcely attested. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:53, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Thanks for letting me know! I will be more careful next time. Bula Hailan (talk) 15:55, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Jurchen

Is there a way to tell whether a Manchu word is derived from Jurchen? And is there a book that details the historical development of Jurchen to Manchu? RcAlex36 (talk) 05:14, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: My knowledge in Manchu etymology is limited, but I can think of some books and articles that talk about the Jurchen language. I recommend the works by 金啓孮 (for example, 《女真文辭典》 [index of this dictionary], 《女真文大辭典》, 《女真語滿洲通古斯諸語比較辭典》 (this one may be helpful) and 《女真語言文字研究》). Also, 愛新覺羅·烏拉熙春 published some articles on the relationship between Jurchen and Manchu. You may be able to find some of them on the journal 滿語研究. Hope this helps! Bula Hailan (talk) 17:04, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Bug in Module:bo-translit

Right now, for Tibetan འགས་པ ('gas pa), it auto-generates the incorrect Wylie transliteration 'ags pa, when the correct form should be 'gas pa. I've posted a discussion at Wiktionary:Grease pit/2021/May#Bug_in_Tibetan_transliteration. I don't know if you are familiar enough with Tibetan, but if you are would you mind taking a look at what's wrong with Module:bo-translit? RcAlex36 (talk) 02:50, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: It seems the module identifies འ as the 基字 (rather than 前加字), but Wylie transliteration shows that ག is the 基字. What’s making the situation harder is that, in Tibetan orthography, ག can be both 基字 (ga) and 第一後加字 (-g). It seems it is not easy in such cases to (automatically) determine which letter is the 基字. @RcAlex36 Bula Hailan (talk) 03:02, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Wait, are 'ags pa and 'gas pa written the same in the Tibetan script? THL’s Online Tibetan Transliteration Converter suggests so. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:40, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I think the answer is yes. The Tibetan script is actually 'a-ga-sa pa. But in each word the vowel can only be attached to one consonant. So the first word could either be 'a-g-s or '-ga-s. Bula Hailan (talk) 03:46, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: and the consonant to which the vowel is attached is called 基字. So I think the problem here is that the module couldn't tell which consonant is the 基字. Bula Hailan (talk) 03:50, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

So 'ags is a legal syllable? Because THL’s Online Tibetan Transliteration Converter says it's a dubious syllable if you check the "Leave" box. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:57, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

So if འགས་པ can theoretically be 'ags pa, is it the case that 'ags is just an illegal syllable in Tibetan? RcAlex36 (talk) 04:05, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: See this link Tibetan Grammar - Formation of the Tibetan Syllable. At Finding the root letter, 8.c, it says: There are only nine possible combinations that have this potential of ambiguity. Not all all of them exist and non of them occurs with both options as main entry in the Great Tibetan-Chinese Dictionary. Fortunaly འགས་པ is one of them ("With second as root letter"). I guess if we add those nine special cases to the module it will just work correctly. Bula Hailan (talk) 04:27, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Since I don't know Lua, would you mind changing the code directly? The special cases are { "བགས", "bags"}, { "དབས", "dbas"}, { "དགས", "dgas" }, { "དམས", "dmas"}, { "འགས", "'gas" }, { "མངས", "mangs"}. RcAlex36 (talk) 05:45, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: No problem, I will see if I can fix the code by mimicking the usage. Bula Hailan (talk)

@Bula Hailan: Did you manage to figure out how the code works? RcAlex36 (talk) 03:14, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36:  Done. All test passed. It seems that you only provided 4 special cases? I will check them later. Bula Hailan (talk) 03:46, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Oh, only four of them need to be taken care of. Then it's all  Done!. Bula Hailan (talk) 03:49, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! I changed the string.match function to == since the former detects the presence of a substring instead of checking whether the two strings exact match. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:05, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Usage example at 冷酷

If the usage example sounds awkward to you, just remove it. It was added by an IP from Taiwan and I'll let you as a native speaker decide. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:20, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

布魯克巴

Happy Dragon Boat Festival!

布魯克巴 should be borrowed from Manchu. Any idea what the Manchu word is? RcAlex36 (talk) 18:10, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Also @LibCae. RcAlex36 (talk) 18:45, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Happy Dragon Boat Festival! In this article How Europe heard about Bhutan, 布魯克巴 is spelled Broukpa (Brukpa). My gut tells me this word should not be from Manchu if the phonetic transcription is accurate, because in Manchu there is no initial consonant cluster. Is it possible that Brukpa is from Tibetan or Dzongkha? -pa sounds like a typical Tibetan suffix. Bula Hailan (talk) 00:50, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

འབྲུག་པ ('brug pa) 49.180.81.131 01:57, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: @Bula Hailan: Consonant clusters are allowed in the accurate Manchu-Mongol transliteration of Tibetan. Besides in the rules ᠪᠠ does match པ (see 欽定同文韻統, etc.). Loan words of land Mongolian/Tibetan origin were almost never directly borrowed during Qing. I’m not sure but I may have seen the term’s Manchu form written. I’ll try to to find an attested spelling. Alternatively in 職貢圖 there’s a variant ᠪᡠᠯᡠᡴᠪᠠ / 補嚕克巴. LibCae (talk) 02:17, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

鳳凰

(also @Frigoris) A user put in the usage notes section of 鳳凰 "while phoenix is either transliterated as 菲尼克斯 (Fēiníkèsī) (Fēiníkèsī) or translated literally as 不死鳥／不死鸟 (bùsǐniǎo), the latter is more common when referring to the mythical creature". Could you please verify that this is true (i.e. the phoenix is western mythology is more often called 不死鳥 than 鳳凰, and that phoenix is transliterated as 菲尼克斯? RcAlex36 (talk) 14:28, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36, any suggestion about what to look into? What does "western" mean, Greek? Middle Eastern? Indian? --Frigoris (talk) 14:40, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

@Frigoris: Say Greek. But in common Chinese usage, when referring to the mythical non-Chinese phoenix, is 鳳凰 or 不死鳥 more commonly used? It appears that 鳳凰 is associated with 涅槃 and 浴火重生 in the modern Chinese language, which are traits of the phoenix in Greek mythology, suggesting 鳳凰 can also refer to the non-Chinese (Greek) phoenix, at least in common usage. RcAlex36 (talk) 14:50, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

also @沈澄心 RcAlex36 (talk) 15:28, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I personally think that 不死鳥 is more commonly used to refer to the non-Chinese phoenix. The reason that we say 鳳凰涅槃 in Chinese is probably because 4-character terms sound more literary. 不死鳥涅槃 is redundant and awkward. Bula Hailan (talk) 05:05, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

What about 菲尼克斯? Is 菲尼克斯 also used in the normal context (i.e. when referring to a mythical phoenix, not the name Phoenix)? RcAlex36 (talk) 10:55, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I think I’ve only seen 菲尼克斯 been used to transliterate the place name Poenix (like the US city). But on the disambiguation page of 菲尼克斯 on Chinese wikipedia, the sense “傳說生物” is provided. Bula Hailan (talk) 16:15, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

賣廣告

also @沈澄心 請問一下「賣廣告」是港台用語嗎？大陸是不是一般都說「做廣告」？RcAlex36 (talk) 14:58, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I think in the Mainland we usually say 打廣告. Bula Hailan (talk) 15:01, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

@TongcyDai How do you say "to advertise" in Taiwan Mandarin? 做廣告, 打廣告 or 賣廣告? RcAlex36 (talk) 15:04, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36 I believe that 打廣告 is the most frequently-used term for this sense.--TongcyDai (talk) 02:55, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: 大陸一般不說「賣廣告」，至少普通話裡不這麼說。廣州話裡可能有這種說法（[1], [2], [3] 0:23, [4] 1:03）. --沈澄心✉ 15:42, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

@沈澄心: 對，香港粵語裡基本都說「賣廣告」，香港的報紙也是寫「賣廣告」。RcAlex36 (talk) 16:03, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

"{{der3|vi}}" vs. "{{vi-der}}"

Hello. I noticed that you revised one instance of my usage of "{{der3|vi}}" to "{{vi-der}}". Is there a particular benefit in using the latter? I find it redundant, as it adds an extra "(Derived terms):" heading. I'm curious if there's something I'm not considering.

ColePeltier93 (talk) 10:08, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@ColePeltier93: Hi. I can't seem to find out which edit you are referring to. I also think that adding an extra "derived terms" is somewhat redundant. I feel that vi-der should rather be used under the "see also" heading where both derived terms and semantically related terms are listed. There are a lot of entries where "derived terms" appears twice so I just follow the existing usages. But feel free to keep your editing style. Cheers. Bula Hailan (talk) 14:34, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@Bula Hailan: No worries, then. Cheers.

ColePeltier93 (talk) 04:04, 17 August 2021 (UTC)