Lily, Severus, and the Marauders are in their final years at Hogwarts, as the Wizarding World is thrown into chaos. Severus walks a dark path, one that will put his friendship with Lily to the test. James, Sirius, and Peter risk everything to help Remus, while Lily struggles to find her place in a world that is increasingly hostile towards Muggleborns.

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DECEMBER, 1975 - COKEWORTH, EAST MIDLANDS
“We used to have a lot of fun when we were kids, didn’t we?”
“Yeah, we did.”
They walk towards Lily’s house in silence, the unspoken knowledge that things have changed hanging between them.
“When did things get so hard?” says Lily finally.
“I don’t know. I s'pose we got older, didn’t we? It always gets hard as you get older.”
“That’s true. I can’t help but miss those days, you know?”
“I miss it too,” says Sev softly. “It was simpler then.”
“Ah, c'mere you.“
She grasps his arm, pulling them close together as they walk.
“Cokeworth never really changes though, does it?” says Lily.
“No, not really. Still a stinking pisshole.”

part one (complete) / part two (complete) / part three (complete) / part four (in progress)

ok like i said. this snetunia fic has turned out…. sweeter than I thought it would and it’s actually been a surprise to me. Idk he eats her out and then she makes him a sandwich. They’re genuinely sad to say goodbye to each other at the end of their summer of love. Idk I love my weird fucked up children

I’ll be honest right now, I’m pretty tired of the “Madonna-Whore Complex” being trotted out as a buzzword in discussions about Lily. I don’t mean this as an attack (and certainly not on that anon) because I think like any buzzword it’s just been repeated to the point where people clearly do not understand what it means anymore. Which isn’t anyone’s fault but I just want to be clear about this.

Lily is not portrayed as a sexually untouchable or chaste character. In fact, her own sexual desires are pretty important in terms of her character, as they lead her to start dating James. The author clearly had them in mind when writing SWM, and has heavily implied as much in later interviews. Beyond that, Lily is textually perceived as an object of sexual desire by two male characters. One of whom quite obviously has sex with her lol.

I get the idea that Lily is ‘untouchable’ to Snape, and also it’s worth considering that the narrator is literally her son who is not going to sexualise his mother lmao. But again, Lily’s sexual attraction towards James is an important aspect of her character. And that sexual attraction, as well as James’s, is realised, a fact which does not take away from the moral goodness of the character, nor is it judged by the narrative. Snape’s possible perception of Lily as a 'pure’ and 'chaste’ untouchable Madonna (which I do see him as having to some extent, but that’s his own fault) is not the reality of her character, nor is it meant to be.

Like I said, the 'Madonna-Whore complex’ does not refer to some women being good and others being bad. It’s about tying a woman’s sexuality to her moral purity or lack thereof, wherein 'impure’ women are sexual objects and 'pure’ women are de-sexed. Writing a woman, a mother even, as a good person is not automatically setting her up as a Madonna. If Lily is the Madonna, who is the 'Whore’ intended to be viewed as hypersexual to Lily’s supposed chastity?

I can see the argument that Lily as a mother and wife is 'pure’ (though I think in reality this has much more to do with Harry’s perception of her than anything.) But there are also mothers/wives who are morally corrupt, which is sort of a big point in terms of comparing the different mothers portrayed in HP. There are criticisms that come to mind when talking about how mothers and wives are portrayed in HP, but I just don’t think the Madonna-Whore complex is a wholly accurate criticism to make in this instance.

It’s absolutely important to criticise HP (or any work) through a feminist lens. But it’s also important to have a good understanding of the terminology you’re using to do so. Imo it’s easy to reach for this concept because it sounds like something bad (and it is) but is it actually applicable here? Is it specifically applicable to Lily as a character? Personally, I don’t think so.

As I said, needing to view Lily as morally corrupt in order to understand her sexual attraction to James is actually much more closely aligned with the Madonna-Whore complex. It’s not inherently bad to write a morally corrupt female character as a sexual being either. But tbh the idea that fans of Lily (many of whom have written pages and pages about Lily having sex or sexual desire lmfao) are reproducing the Madonna-Whore complex, simply for portraying her as a good person, is pretty ludicrous when you stop and think about it.

male characters being allowed to be brooding, complex, complicated, and able to lean more into their darker tendencies

I agree with this, although I think the thing is there’s no reason why a character who is kind and selfless should not also be complex and have moments of darkness. In fact, they absolutely should. ‘Brooding’ is obviously a trait that only applies to certain characters- James, while obviously morally grey, does not strike me as a broody character. Lily being broody can totally fit within her canon characterisation, there’s no reason why not.

HP is a series which does have prominent morally grey or evil female characters– Bellatrix, Narcissa, Petunia, Umbridge are good examples. While Bellatrix and Umbridge are more or less completely evil, Petunia and Narcissa are presented with a great deal of moral complexity. And, I think, empathy– to me there’s empathy in the way Tuney is written in Snape’s memories, there is consideration for their motivations, which are complex. I’m not convinced any of these characters fit at all neatly into the 'madonna/whore dichotomy’– maybe Bellatrix, at a stretch, but I think she (and Umbridge) are both complex and well-written. Like if what you’re saying is some women are written as good and others as bad, that’s kind of true of all characters ever and is known as the 'good and evil dichotomy’ lol.

The Madonna-Whore complex is specifically about how men (or anyone) perceive 'impure’ women as sexual beings and 'pure’ women as chaste and untouchable. It does not refer to some women being good and some women being evil. I personally cannot see in HP that this is the case. The male narrator does not lust after Umbridge or Pansy Parkinson or even really Bellatrix (who I do think is portrayed as sexual but that’s not an inherently bad thing.) Probably the female characters who are most sexualised are Fleur, Ginny, Cho, probably Bellatrix, and tbh Lily herself– the object of sexual desire of two men, who has sexual attraction towards a male character.

HP is a kids’ series, but the moment which most heavily implies sexuality is when Ginny takes Harry to her room with (as is implied) the intention of having sex with him. Ginny is a character who is good. Personally it’s my belief that this term is being misused by fandom when what they really mean is that some women are good and some women are not so good. lol.

Like sorry haha, I just can’t see this thing people say about the female characters in HP being terribly written. I simply do not think that they are. Hermione is an incredibly well-written character, imo. Undoubtedly there is sexism in HP as there is in most things, because jkr was raised in a patriarchy like the rest of us. But it’s not inherently sexist to write a female character as good any more than it is for a female character to be evil. As I’ve established above, HP has a variety of both, and the more prominent female characters, good or evil or in between, are given a lot of complexity.

Personally I think it’s more important for all characters to be well written and complex, no matter their morality. To give 'good’ characters less complexity would be an actively inferior choice in terms of character writing. Buffy Summers is a 'righteous’ character and is explicitly set up as a morality guide for the rest of the cast, and yet she is by far the most complex character in the series with the most time and care dedicated to her development (to the point where the development of other characters is frequently used as a parallel to represent what Buffy’s going through.)

The character work on Buffy is known for being incredibly good, and while obviously there is sexism in the series rip, I don’t think it’s inherently sexist or bad writing for a female character to be the 'best’ person in a group of men (in fact I feel like this is not an uncommon scenario irl lmao.) It matters a lot more, to me at least, that the female character is given consideration and complexity.

I get why it would make you uncomfortable and I get what you’re saying, but I think the issue isn’t that Lily is a good person lol, I think the issue (either way) is that her motivations aren’t given anything near the consideration that those of male characters are given. And tbh, while I get what you’re saying about subverting tropes, it is not AT ALL a subversion of sexist tropes to write a female character as a gold digger or a social climber, in fact that’s playing straight into them. (not that this is what you’re doing haha, I just had to point this out.) Like lets be so for real right now, writing Lily as a shallow cold ice queen who selfishly goes for the hot popular rich guy rather than her poor downtrodden friend pulls from every sexist trope in the book.

Anyway ty for your thoughts! I do still believe it’s possible to write a darker version of Lily well as long as her motivations are given due care and consideration. You can absolutely write a female character who is a social climber, or even one who marries for money, in a way that’s thoughtful and empathetic and interesting. But I don’t think it’s fair to pretend that this is better than a female character who doesn’t do that. (again, not what you were doing, but I think it’s worth considering.)

I agree, I think they’re pretty vanilla! Which doesn’t make it bad or boring! I think they were very in tune with each other and shared a lot of attraction, intensity, passion, genuine intimacy– which are things I personally think make sex great rather than trying more extreme things just for the sake of trying them. (nothing wrong with trying them, but I don’t think it’s necessary for sex to be interesting and fulfilling, and it’s not going to be for everyone.)

So basically I think it was a lot of fun for jily, they were both attentive and loving and passionate, but I don’t think they’d try anything really out there lol. Like what they have works so well, why would they need to bust out the whips and chains. In contrast to vertunia’s everyday boringness, jily’s lives were already pretty dangerous so sex would have been a good way to feel safe and connect with each other (and also maybe work off excess adrenaline lol.)

omg you’re right! Taming of the shrew vibes for sure

asfjhkgh FIRST of all, if I’m the one with the authority to answer this question, I’d like to return it. 😭 lol I’ll answer anyway because I bear my burdens bravely.

Ok, here’s the thing– I think Vernon would absolutely be an underwhelming partner, at least by default lol. Probably a lot of grunting, as someone said to me on discord. HOWEVER-

I think Petunia has a dominant streak lol. I can see her as one of those housewives who likes to get a bit freaky in private haha. So, while they’re definitely not doing anything THAT outrageous, I think Petunia would be pretty assertive about what she wants and that Vernon would enjoy meekly following her instructions in bed. kshfksdhg I really did not want this mental image in my head, but oh well. Obviously they act out pretty typical wife and husband dynamics in their lives, but there are a few moments that spring to mind where Vernon is somewhat submissive towards Petunia, like you said he’s actually a supportive husband to her. And I think that would their dynamic in the bedroom lmfao. I think basically it’s Petunia being bossy and Vernon’s just happy to be there. lol

So weirdly– it’s not sex that I’d want to have or picture or in fact ever think about again, but I do think they have a fulfilling sexual dynamic. For them. And tbh it makes sense with the fact that they’re so conservative and uptight, because this is the one private moment where they can cut loose and nobody’s judging them. (Except me.)

I’m not making a separate playlist for snetunia beyond the one I’ve already made but here are my snetunia coded songs that I’ve been listening to while writing this (that are wildly different lol)

I only fucked you as a joke - Childbirth. LOL sorry

Different drum - Stone Poneys and Linda Ronstadt

Little death - the Beths

Locked out - Daddy Issues

Babies - Pulp

Cornerstone - Arctic Monkeys (truly a snily snetunia vibe)

Babies are a lie - Pip Blom

That kind of girl - All Dogs

On my own - Hinds

I mean I think that’s great haha! I’m all for exploring a darker, messier Lily. And tbh I think all humans are morally grey to some extent, so I’d find it equally unrealistic if Lily was written as a saintly being who could do no wrong. I wouldn’t describe her as ‘morally pure’ LMAO, because quite simply I don’t think that exists in human beings. Not to get existentialist, but we aren’t born with an inherent moral nature or destiny, rather we are free to make our own choices and decide who we will become. Humans are fallible, so every single person at some point will make mistakes.

When I say I think Lily was a good person, I definitely don’t mean she was morally pure! I’ve said this many times loll, but I think even I, Lily defender of all time, have written her as less than perfect. For instance, I had her not immediately understand when she found out Remus was a werewolf– until someone explained it to her, she struggled with the idea that Remus was a monster, because that’s what she had learnt in the wizarding world and had simply never given it much thought. It certainly doesn’t make her evil, it makes her flawed, realistically I think– but ultimately she’s willing to learn from her mistakes and try to be better.

And to me it’s just more interesting and worthwhile to approach all characters as complex humans rather than points on a moral alignment chart, so for me personally Lily never feels out of place within the cast of characters. There have been moments where James acts with more integrity than her, moments where Lily is weak, and (obviously lol) vice versa– because all humans are capable of acting with integrity and all humans are capable of weakness. So it’s all just a bunch of people trying to figure out their own morality haha, including Lily.

But anyway, as you say– the issue isn’t at all that someone wants to write a dark!Lily or explore the idea of a Lily who is harsher or meaner or more selfish or more fucked up than she’s portrayed in canon. Tbh I like the idea of a fic exploring a more problematique Lily. The issue for me is people acting like it’s explicitly canon that Lily is a selfish bitch who is a gold-digger and social climber, especially when it’s clear they haven’t spared a drop of empathy in thinking about her character.

And, I’ll be honest, even that is not a huge issue haha– for instance, if I see a random recommended post (which I did the other day lol) saying Lily must have been a selfish person because she dated a bully etc, I’m usually not going to reblog it and start arguing. Like it’s whatever, people are allowed to have opinions that I disagree with. The only reason I’ve been arguing this at all is because people have addressed me directly– either in my inbox or by reblogging my posts lol. Which is fine! In a general sense anyway haha– as long as people aren’t rude I don’t at all mind discussing things and seeing different perspectives. I’m generally confident in my own opinions and I think I can back them up, so it’s not a threat to me if someone disagrees with them haha (not just about HP characters but in life shdjdkghhjh)