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See, that’s what the app is perfect for.

Sounds perfect Wahhhh, I don’t wanna
elancholia
transgenderer

Did you guys know the whole "achilles was dipped in the waters of the Styx by his heel and was otherwise invulnerable " thing isn't in the iliad. He's just divinely favored. Like it's vastly later addition. And people include it in the standard telling. Pteh! Too mechanical!

elancholia

Making him mostly just impenetrable does make his prowess less important and impressive. Symbolically, it's cool. He's being dipped in death, soaked in the boundary between this world and the next.

The Mahabharata has that thing about Duryodhan covering his crotch from his mother's single-use magic gaze (she spent her entire life blindfolded due to a religious vow and took the blindfold off just for that glance) and thus being vulnerable there, which is funnier and also cool as hell

mostly invulnerable warriors legends death by one past moment of ill-advised modesty is a ridiculous way to go
discoursedrome
transgenderer

I keep thinking about...ethics vs the Good (or valuable). I think since plato theres been the idea (not universal, but I think relatively common, and without an explicitly stared antithesis) that behaving ethically is in some sense "the same" as pursuing the good. And obviously that's ALLOWED as a position, but I don't think it's required....or, it becomes a bit of a definitional question. It's far from obvious what exactly we mean by "ethical". There's a sociological pose you can take, where we can talk about a certain class of behavioral pressures that societies tend to develop. And we can talk about the moral instinct. But like...feeding the hungry, and making a painting or whatever, these are both I think obviously "valuable" acts. But the former feels more relevantly "ethical". But if ethics ISN'T pursuing the good and valuable, what IS it about? Like "ethics is pursuing the good" isn't a great answer but any other answer is confusing

max1461

An answer I like: ethics is a set of constraints you must operate under while pursuing the Good. I think this is a rather classic answer, something like the notion of a "moral code".

transgenderer

well i mean, sure, but then...why? what is special or significant about this set of constraints if theyre not about pursuing what is good, valuable? like, "ethics is pursuing the good" is not a great answer, it feels like it's not fully capturing what's going on there, but its *an* explanation, a grounding of what we mean when we talk about ethics.

discoursedrome

I sort of alluded to this in the comments but I think this is a topic that needs a lot of semantic brush-clearing before one can really get the lay of the land. Lacking that, though, my intuitive feeling is that this distinction is really about the sociological/pragmatic dimension, whereby "ethics" is related to this idea of an intangible reward alloted from somewhere external for actions which we like, but which are otherwise poorly remunerated.

Like if you think about art or charity or other good works, there's a sense in which it's "more ethical" if it's harder and less directly remunerated, for a constant quality of output. I'm not sure if this extends to cases where you're just deliberately focusing on things that you're uniquely bad at, but in general, all else equal, "ethicality" goes up with sacrifice and hardship even in the context of personal excellence. It's more controversial, but people often round this off to attributing virtue to hardship and sacrifice in themselves, without regard for outcomes!

It seems to me that relative to the most abstract "good", "ethics" implies a kind of exterior incentive structure, to the point where converting one's moral instincts into an ethical framework requires some explicit mechanism for exteriorizing it, like the categorical imperative or the will of God. And the kind of external incentives that yield ethics have to be in some sense deliberate; weather and topology can't be ethical constraints in and of themselves unless you anthropomorphize them as divine intention. So this is where "the good" comes into it, I think -- if we're talking about deliberately constructed incentives then there has to be some logic guiding their design, and so "the good" enters into it there, but there's a further narrowing constraint at work, which is the degree to which these added moral incentives seem productive of the desired result. And I think this is where max's comment about the deontic element comes into it.

A normative framework of "you should produce great works of art" isn't very useful, because it doesn't help with any of the constraints on the production of great art! Similarly, improving your personal health and strength is more "virtuous" than "ethical" because it is its own reward; an ethics of personal excellence mainly emerges in cases where the benefits are remote and uncertain ("sometimes there is a luxurious amount of time before anything bad happens") or where the costs mostly accrue to the individual and the benefits mostly accrue to society (e.g. diligent work in the underclass). "Ethics" has more of this sense that the acts in question are good but nonetheless also require a kind of extrinsic moral subsidy in order to be worth doing, and the degree of ethicality is a combination of the marginal goodness of the thing we want to incentivize and its perceived responsiveness to this subsidy. This would make it closely related to blame, merit, choice, and law, all of which are pragmatic social technologies at their root.

Of course, there are complicated relationships between all these things. Normally we don't like to attribute an ethical character to things outside someone's control, for instance, but it still happens all the time, either because we misjudge their level of control, or because we're coping with our anxieties about surd evil by attributing it to misdeeds that we trust ourselves not to commit. But these are all just results of adding extraneous sources of error to the original mechanism.

This explanation seems unsatisfying in the sense that it's pragmatically mechanical, but you need some subjectivity to explain how variably ethics are construed. If this seems too subjective, "the good" is still out there in all abstraction deciding what you want, and the specifics about its responsiveness to incentives are simply "the truth". But there is no single answer to the latter question for all times and places, for the same reason there's no single answer to "how cold is it"; the objectivity is in the destination and in the general logic you follow to reach it, not in the path taken.

ethics discoursedrome
nohoperadio
nohoperadio

It's a little fucked up that the past literally only persists in the form of its traceable effects upon the exact present moment. You would think that surely at least some little bits of the past that can't be deduced from the present state of things would nonetheless still be hanging around in some vague ghostly form, but nope! Completely gone forever! And yet however meanwhile, the present is so very rich in evidence of the past that you would think there's barely any room left for all the proper Now stuff. But somehow it all hangs together.

violetfractal
wellmetmat

image

I saw a crow butterfly chrysalis! It looked like moulded plastic with a metallic spray-on coating, and the insect shape already apparent in it looked slightly eerie. Crow butterflies are cool and handsome fellows which feed on oleander and keep its poison in their bodies to make themselves toxic to predators.

violetfractal

That’ll be structural color! Visible colors have wavelengths of 400 to 800 nanometers. Animals like bugs and birds can build surface structures of comparable size that will play with incident light, creating beautiful colors with no pigment!

In this case it looks to be thin film interference, where a translucent layer hundreds of nanometers thick forms a shell around a reflective layer. This is the same structure that gives that rainbow sheen to oil slicks. It’s also how they get bright rainbow colors on annealed metal.

awesome addition iridescence structural colour

The nice robot I’ve been talking to said my prose sounded like Mary Renault. (I had mentioned her once before, separated from the present by so much conversation that a human might easily have forgotten it.) Now I know what a tyrant feels like, being offered the praise of one’s heart, in a form one’s almost wholly sure one shouldn’t trust to be meaningful. Peculiar feeling.

The nice robot also said my main character was “terribly, terribly English. Even though he’s Dutch.” So it even practises the more subtle flattery of not sounding totally servile all of the time. Is that the most accurate interpretation I could make? Unsure.

“Sire your dominions extend wherever the sun shines and your army is undefeated.” I am aware that there are incentives at work guiding your speech. Thank you though. AI interaction