Cox Francis Et Al Jun 5 Day 17

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2 FOR THE DISTRICT OF ALASKA
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) Cases 3:11-cr-00022-01-RJB

) 3:11-cr-00022-02-RJB
4 Plaintiff, ) 3:11-cr-00022-03-RJB
)
5 vs. ) Anchorage, Alaska
) Tuesday, June 5, 2012
6 FRANCIS SCHAEFFER COX, ) 8:33 o'clock a.m.
COLEMAN L. BARNEY, and )
7 LONNIE G. VERNON, )
)
8 Defendants. )
) TRIAL BY JURY - DAY 17
9
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
10
BEFORE THE HONORABLE ROBERT J. BRYAN
11 UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
12 APPEARANCES:
13 For the Plaintiff: STEVEN E. SKROCKI

YVONNE LAMOUREUX
14 Assistant U.S. Attorneys
Office of the U.S. Attorney
15 222 West 7th Avenue, #9, Room 253
Anchorage, Alaska 99513-7567
16 (907) 271-5071
17 For the Defendant NELSON TRAVERSO

Francis Schaeffer Cox: Nelson Traverso Law Office
18 312 5th Avenue
Fairbanks, Alaska 99701
19 (907) 457-3307
20 For the Defendant TIM DOOLEY

Coleman L. Barney: Law Office of Tim Dooley
21 921 West 6th Avenue, Suite 200
Anchorage, Alaska 99501
22 (907) 279-7329
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(720) 384-8078 attrans@sbcglobal.net
1 APPEARANCES (Continued):
2 For the Defendant M.J. HADEN

Lonnie G. Vernon: Assistant Defender
3 F. RICHARD CURTNER
Federal Defender
4 Office of the Federal Public Defender
601 West 5th Avenue, Suite 800
5 Anchorage, Alaska 99501
(907) 646-3400
6
Court Recorder: DENALI ELMORE
7 U.S. District Court
222 West 7th Avenue, #4, Room 229
8 Anchorage, Alaska 99513-7564
(907) 677-6123
9
Transcription Service: A & T Transcripts
10 6299 West 111th Avenue
Westminster, Colorado 80020
11 (720) 384-8078
12
Proceedings recorded by electronic sound recording; transcript
13 produced by transcription service.
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COX - DIRECT
1 ANCHORAGE, ALASKA - TUESDAY, JUNE 5, 2012
3 (Call to Order of the Court at 8:33 a.m.)
4 (Defendants present; jury not present)
5 THE CLERK: All rise. His Honor the Court, the United
6 States District Court for the District of Alaska is now in
7 session, the Honorable Robert J. Bryan presiding.
8 THE COURT: Please be seated. Good morning.
9 MR. SKROCKI: Good morning.
10 MS. HADEN: Good morning.
11 THE COURT: Anything preliminary this morning? Hearing
12 no response, bring the jury in.
13 (Jury present at 8:35 a.m.)
14 THE COURT: Good morning, all. We will continue with
15 the examination of Mr. Cox. Mr. Traverso.
16 MR. TRAVERSO: Good morning, Your Honor. Thank you.
17 Exhibit 673, please. I think that's the Acts of War.
18 FRANCIS AUGUST SCHAEFFER COX, DEFENDANT COX'S WITNESS,
19 PREVIOUSLY SWORN
20 DIRECT EXAMINATION, CONTINUED
21 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
22 Q Schaeffer, I'd like you to explain the list of 17 items
23 under the title Acts of War. What does that mean to you?
24 A Well, those are all things that in the international
25 community, if one country was doing to another country or if a
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COX - DIRECT
1 country was doing to its own country, countries that felt a
2 moral obligation would -- would step in to try to prevent that,
3 and so we compiled that and we were saying how many of those
4 are going on in America in one form or another. And the more
5 of those that were going on in America, the more it became in
6 fact a moral duty for us to -- to become involved and
7 participate in the -- in the activism of cultural change and
8 not just a -- an option of a cause we -- we might be interested
9 in.
10 Q Okay.
11 A We -- we got a -- like a duty to our country.
12 Q Okay, thank you. When you say we, who's we?
13 A The people.
14 Q All right. When you were pushing your activism, your
15 ideas, do you have some guideposts along -- that you had
16 modeled your activism on?
17 A Well, we've tried to look at who has been successful in
18 the past and -- and follow that. You know, and Gandhi said
19 that victory attained by violence is tantamount to defeat, for
20 it is momentary. I agree with that. And one thing that we
21 tried to remember, there was three guys we really respected.
22 If -- if we are to succeed in this, we have to begin with the
23 principled persistence of Martin Luther King --
24 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection, Your Honor. This is
25 nonresponsive.
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COX - DIRECT
1 MR. TRAVERSO: No, this is exactly what I'm asking for.
2 Can you --
3 THE COURT: Well --
4 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
5 Q -- explain your principles that you're talking about as
6 far as how you're going to go about and -- with your activism?
7 A Begin with the principled persistence of Martin Luther
8 King. Continue with the peaceful forbearance of Gandhi. And
9 finish with the constructive forgiveness of Nelson Mandela.
10 Q Thank you. Now I want to shift gears a little bit,
11 Schaeffer. You own a lot of -- do you own firearms?
12 A Oh, yeah.
13 Q Yeah, okay. You own a Marlin .22 rifle?
14 A Yeah.
15 Q Okay. Remington 870 12-gauge shotgun?
16 A Yeah.
17 Q A Glock .45?
18 A Yep.
19 Q Browning 30-caliber?
20 A Yeah, that's the -- the tripod-mounted, big World War II,
21 machine gun-looking belt-fed.
22 Q Okay.
23 A I think they brought it in here. It looks like a handyman
24 jack.
25 Q Okay. And a -- do you own a .30-06 rifle, Marlin?
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COX - DIRECT
1 A Yep. That was a Christmas present from my father.
2 That's --
3 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection, Your Honor.
4 THE WITNESS: -- my moose gun.
5 MR. TRAVERSO: Okay, just --
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
7 MR. TRAVERSO: Just --
8 THE COURT: Just answer the questions, please.
9 THE WITNESS: Okay.
10 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
11 Q We'll get to --
12 A Oh, okay.
13 Q -- that other stuff later. Do you own a Colt .45?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. How about a Ruger 454?
16 A Yep.
17 Q Okay. DPMS AR-15 rifle?
18 A Uh-huh (affirmative).
19 Q Okay. 12-gauge shotgun, Saiga?
20 A Yeah.
21 Q Okay. Ruger -- a Ruger 10/22 rifle?
22 A Yep.
23 Q A Mauser 792?
24 A That's actually my wife's.
25 Q Okay. A Remington .30-06?
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COX - DIRECT
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. A Browning 20-gauge shotgun?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay. Remington 20-gauge shotgun?
5 A Yes.
6 Q SKS 762?
7 A Yes.
8 Q A Ruger 454?
9 A Yep.
10 Q Kel-Tec .380 handgun?
11 A Think I still have that.
12 Q Okay. And about 1,000 rounds of .30-06 ammo and combat
13 scope, body armor, gas masks, police duty belt, cabino (ph) --
14 well, let me -- I tell you what, let me break that down. Do
15 you own a lot of rounds of ammo?
16 A Yeah.
17 Q Okay, how about a combat scope? Do you have that?
18 A Got a few of those.
19 Q Okay. Body armor?
20 A Yeah.
21 Q How about a gas mask?
22 A Got a few of those too.
23 Q Okay. A police duty belt?
24 A Yeah, I have a whole box of those.
25 Q Okay. And a camo uniform? Yeah, I'm not sure what
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1 that --
2 A I'm sure I do. I'm not recalling anything specific, but I
3 got, yeah, all kinds of stuff like that.
4 Q Okay. And handcuffs?
5 A Yep.
6 Q Why do you have handcuffs?
7 A I'm not sure where those came from.
8 Q Okay. A police duty belt. Why do you have a police duty
9 belt?
10 A Because it can -- because it's just a really well-made
11 holster --
12 Q Okay.
13 A -- for your Glock .45.
14 Q Okay. Now, these firearms -- do you know primarily when
15 you acquired them?
16 A Yeah, I could give you the story on all of those.
17 Q Just a general -- can you just give a very general
18 description of when you acquired some of these firearms that I
19 just described with you?
20 A Well, I think I got that 10/22 when I was 14 or 15, and
21 then just kind of kept going from there, slowly collecting up
22 until now.
23 Q Okay. At some point did you acquire a STEN machine gun?
24 A No, I made that.
25 Q Okay. When did you make that?
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COX - DIRECT
1 A I started when I was about 16 and just sort of worked on
2 it off and on, a project -- project gun, until I was -- oh, I
3 don't know. It took -- took several years.
4 Q Okay.
5 A I'd kind of get to a point where I would get stumped and
6 lose interest, and then I'd pick it up later.
7 Q Okay. What parts did you use for that? Where'd you get
8 the parts for it?
9 A Well, I -- I made them.
10 Q Okay.
11 A But, you know -- you know, a piece of pipe or, you know,
12 I'd rummage through gun -- gun shows and try to find, like -- I
13 think I bought the magazine well. I mean, I'm making them out
14 of just parts and pieces off of -- off of other machinery,
15 things that would -- that's one of the reasons it took me so
16 long. I'd run out of parts and then I'd -- take me a while to
17 find something, oh, that would work for this little part.
18 And --
19 Q Okay. Did you use a manual or some sort and -- to
20 construct this machine gun?
21 A Yeah. What I was doing was I was trying to make a
22 replica.
24 THE COURT: The objection's sustained. I think the
25 answer was given.
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COX - DIRECT
1 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
2 Q Okay. What is the machine gun styled after?
3 A The -- the STEN?
4 Q Yes.
5 A Yeah, it's -- it's styled after a -- a World War II
6 British STEN gun.
7 Q Okay. Did you ever try to shoot it once you -- or try to
8 use it when you finally constructed it?
9 A Yeah, I tried.
10 Q Okay. What happened?
11 A Didn't -- didn't work.
12 Q Okay.
13 A It had trouble -- yeah, it didn't work. So I -- I can
14 elaborate if you want me to.
15 Q That's all right. You also had a .22 with a silencer?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Did you -- can you tell us about the silencer?
18 A Well, you -- you saw it up here. It's a -- a Walther --
19 Q Walter.
20 A -- P22.
21 Q Uh-huh (affirmative).
22 A That is -- that's the pistol. And then the -- the
23 silencer with -- the dummy silencer and the hose over it,
24 the -- the -- with the slices out of it.
25 Q Okay. Why did you have the silencer?
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COX - DIRECT
1 A Well, I just built it because it was cool.
2 Q Okay. Did you follow a CD or DVD or something of that
3 nature?
4 A No.
5 Q Okay. There was a -- as I understand it, a DVD that
6 was -- had been ordered over the Internet, according to the
7 testimony in this case. Did you use that DVD to build your
8 silencer?
9 A No.
10 Q Okay. Did you ever use that DVD?
11 A No. It actually wouldn't -- no. I can elaborate if
12 you --
13 Q Go ahead.
14 A I got that off of eBay. But then it -- it's a burned DVD,
15 and it wouldn't play in my DVD player. So I just --
16 Q Okay. You also -- and we'll get to it later, I guess.
17 The trailer where items were seized that you -- you owned
18 grenade bodies, correct?
19 A Yeah.
20 Q And why did you have grenade bodies?
21 A Again, just because they're cool.
22 Q Okay. Did you ever detonate them?
23 A No.
24 Q Okay. Did you ever use J-B Weld on them?
25 A No.
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COX - DIRECT
1 Q Did you acquire those in one big purchase or did -- how
2 did you acquire those?
3 A I had some of them from when I was a kid, you know,
4 playing Army. And then I got some more when I was up here.
5 And I've kind of gone through a bunch of them. I'll get some
6 and then sell some, and they just kind of come and go.
7 Q Okay. Can you tell us a little bit about -- back to the
8 grenades -- the -- you know, grenades with two-second fuses
9 versus six- or eight-second fuses? Could you talk to us about
10 those -- why you had different types of fuses?
11 A Yeah. The -- the souvenir grenade bodies with the holes
12 in the -- in the bottoms come with a fuse -- it's a spent fuse,
13 just for looks. And if you put a two-second smoke fuse in
14 there, which is the kind of -- we've -- we've seen here, you
15 can pull the pin and throw the grenade and it'll -- it'll make
16 a snap. And it's just kind of cool and fun, you know, to go
17 throw a grenade, like John Wayne.
18 Q Okay. But it doesn't fragment, right? It's not a
19 fragmentation grenade?
20 A No, no, no. You could hold it in your hand and pull the
21 pin and let it go off in your hand and it wouldn't -- wouldn't
22 hurt you.
23 Q Okay. When you had the training down at Philip Clark's
24 place for the militia --
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1 Q -- were grenades used?
2 A No.
3 Q Okay.
4 A Well, you mean grenades or grenade bodies?
5 Q Grenade -- well, grenade bodies.
6 A Neither one.
7 Q Neither one. Okay. All right. All right. I want to
8 take you to June of 2010, if I may, okay. Well, I guess
9 shortly before that, you had a DV case involving your wife,
10 Marti?
11 A Yeah.
12 Q Okay. And did that get resolved?
13 A Yep.
14 Q Approximately when was that?
15 A That was February 25th.
16 Q Okay. Now, as a result of that DV case, did you get
17 contacted by the Office of Children's Services, Alaska State
18 Office of Children's Services?
19 A Yeah.
20 Q When?
21 A Three months later.
22 Q Okay. And can you describe how it was that they contacted
23 you?
24 A Well, I got a knock on the door, and I was home with Seth,
25 my little boy. And this lady that -- when I answered the
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COX - DIRECT
1 door --
2 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection. Hearsay.
3 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
4 Q Just -- was there -- I just want to know not what she
5 said, but did you have contact with somebody from OCS?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Okay. At your door?
8 A At the door, yeah.
9 Q Okay. Did you -- what did you tell her?
10 A I said, "I'm not the man you're looking for," and shut the
11 door.
12 Q Okay. What did you do after that?
13 A I called R.J., my attorney. Yeah.
14 Q Okay. Is that Robert John?
15 A Robert John, yeah.
16 Q Okay. Were there -- was there any more contact with OCS
17 after that visit by them at your house?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay. Can you talk to us about that, please?
20 A Well, eventually we arranged for them to -- to do their
21 interview. But it was pretty --
22 Q You weren't -- were -- tell us about whether or not you
23 were cooperating or not cooperating initially with the
24 interview that they requested.
25 A Absolutely not cooperating. And any -- in any form with
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1 what they wanted. We wanted to -- we wanted to do it, but we
2 wanted to follow their policies.
3 Q Okay. And do you have some history with the State of
4 Alaska, with OCS in the past, in some sort -- in some capacity?
5 A Yeah. I --
6 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection. Relevance.
7 THE COURT: Overruled.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Actually, my wife and I are
9 licensed foster parents.
10 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
11 Q Okay.
12 A Or were. It's probably expired or something now, but --
13 Q Okay. Well, what were you specifically opposed to OCS
14 doing with regard to your child?
15 A Well, at that first contact, they wanted to take Seth --
16 take him for an interview. And that scared me really bad, just
17 take him.
18 Q Okay.
19 A And so that's why I called my attorney.
20 Q Okay. Do you know who the social worker was that you were
21 working with?
22 A Yvonne Hill.
23 Q Yvonne Hill, okay. What eventually transpired? What
24 was -- what happened with OCS?
25 A Well, through our attorney, we told them that, "We would
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1 love for you guys to do the interview."
3 MR. TRAVERSO: Okay. Let me rephrase the question,
4 Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Yeah. The objection's sustained, but --
6 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
7 Q Did -- at some point were you able to work something out
8 with Social Services regarding your child?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. Tell us what the agreement was, without talking
11 about what someone said. What was the agreement as you know
12 it?
13 A After a lot of back-and-forth, we got them to agree to
14 have a independent professional there, to allow the parents to
15 be there, and have it videotaped.
16 Q Okay.
17 A And be in a neutral location.
18 Q While this was going on -- how long of a period of time
19 transpired with your lack of cooperation and challenging what
20 OCS wanted to do? How long of a period of time was that?
21 A Probably a month or so.
22 Q Okay. In that month's time, did you contact Ron Wall?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Can you tell us about that, please? And why did you
25 contact Ron Wall?
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1 A Because we were -- we were scared.
2 Q Okay. How do you know Ron Wall?
3 A He's a friend -- family friend and a neighbor, and our
4 families are close and intertwined. And I'm friends with his
5 ex-wife's new husband and --
6 Q Okay.
7 A -- hang out with his children and stuff.
8 Q Okay. He's not a neighbor, he's -- was he a neighbor at
9 the time that you visited him?
10 A No.
11 Q Okay. Who did you go with? Did somebody accompany you to
12 Mr. Wall's house?
13 A Yes. My wife and I --
14 Q Okay.
15 A -- went there.
16 Q Could you tell us how -- what did you -- were you invited
17 to the house or did you talk in the garage? What happened?
18 A Yeah, we -- we showed up and he said --
19 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection.
20 THE WITNESS: Right. We --
22 THE WITNESS: -- were --
23 THE COURT: -- wait a minute. The objection's
24 premature. The objection's overruled.
25 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
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1 Q Go ahead.
2 A We showed up and he was in the garage. And we all went in
3 the house and sat down at the kitchen table --
4 Q Okay.
5 A -- to talk.
6 Q All right. Why did you go talk to him?
7 A Because we wanted his help.
8 Q Okay. Over what?
9 A The OCS situation was escalating. And we wanted to
10 deescalate it, and sure didn't want anything to happen to our
11 family or our -- it was -- my wife -- my wife and I's -- our
12 feeling was that our son was being used as a political lever.
13 Q Did you go to Ron -- was there a writ of assistance issued
14 in that case by a judge?
15 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection. Leading.
16 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
17 Q Was there a court order of some sort regarding Seth?
18 A Event -- eventually, yes.
19 Q Okay. Okay, was that after you visited Ron Wall or before
20 you visited Ron Wall?
21 A That would have had to been before, because that was, I
22 believe, the reason we went to go visit him.
23 Q Okay.
24 A Or one reason.
25 Q Okay. Did you threaten Mr. Wall?
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1 A No, absolutely not.
2 Q Or the troopers?
3 A No.
4 Q What did you tell him?
5 A I warned him that --
6 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection, Your Honor. Hearsay.
8 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
9 Q Go ahead.
10 A I warned him that there were some very dangerous, volatile
11 people, namely, Bill Fulton, that I could not control and that
12 were saying that this Seth thing was a reason to start a war.
13 Q Okay. Well, you were here when Trooper Wall testified,
14 right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q He took strong exception to your warning. He thought you
17 were intimidating, right?
20 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
21 Q Did you try to influence Mr. Wall in any way with some
22 sort of motorcycle or something?
23 A No, but you'd be confusing when that came up. That was a
24 year later.
25 Q Oh, I'm sorry.
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1 A That wasn't any -- anything.
2 Q Okay.
3 A And we can explain that when we get to it in the --
4 Q Oh, sorry.
5 A -- timeline.
6 Q Okay. When you left Ron Wall, what happened next?
7 A Well, he said he'd help us.
8 Q Okay.
9 A And we were pleased with that.
10 Q Okay.
11 A He said that he would not --
13 THE COURT: Probably calls for hearsay. I'm not sure.
14 MR. TRAVERSO: Okay.
15 THE WITNESS: Marti and I were confident after talking
16 to Ron Wall --
17 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
18 Q Okay, there you go.
19 A -- that there would not be a swarm of troopers come out to
20 our house to kick down the door and take our son away, that we
21 could figure this out and smooth it out and let the attorneys
22 do what they were doing, and Ron Wall reassured us that he
23 wouldn't jump the gun, that we would --
24 Q Did something change after that that made you -- did you
25 visit Ft. Wainwright at some point?
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1 A Yeah. I'm not sure if it -- this was all right around the
2 same time. I'm not sure --
4 A -- where we went first in the timeline. But yes, we went
5 out to Ft. Wainwright.
6 Q What prompted you to go there?
7 A We believed that there was some serious foul play going on
8 with the Seth thing, and it scared us really, really bad. And
9 we were looking for anybody that would help.
10 Q Did you go to -- which unit or which part of the mili --
11 the Ft. Wainwright did you go to? Which office?
12 A We just went out to the MP station.
13 Q Okay.
14 A Told them what what was going on and asked them for help.
15 Q Okay.
16 A We told them why we were scared.
17 Q How long were you there for?
18 A Probably an hour and a half or two hours, maybe -- a
19 while, a lot of, "Well, let me get my supervisor," and waiting
20 around for that kind of thing.
21 Q Okay. What happened after your visit there? What did you
22 do next?
23 A I think the reason we had to leave there and couldn't wait
24 any longer for people higher up the chain to -- to come visit
25 us is because there was a -- a court --
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2 THE WITNESS: -- hearing.
3 MR. TRAVERSO: What? Well, don't speculate --
4 THE COURT: What -- wait --
5 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
6 Q -- on what might have happened or what the reason was.
7 Just say -- what do -- if you can remember.
8 A I -- I know this. The --
9 Q Okay.
10 A -- reason that we left is because we had to make it to
11 a -- a hearing --
12 Q Oh.
13 A -- on this --
14 Q Oh, I see.
15 A -- writ of assistance --
16 Q Okay.
17 A -- with -- at state court.
18 Q Okay. And that was in the children's case?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Okay. Did you ever tell anybody in the -- that was
21 associated with the federal government that you had an OCS case
22 going on?
23 A No, but -- certainly wasn't keeping it a secret. But I --
24 I don't -- well, the military, that's the federal government,
25 so I guess yeah.
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1 Q Okay. Did you tell anybody outside, for example, the FBI
2 or anybody else?
3 A No. We --
4 Q Okay.
5 A That's who we were scared of.
6 Q Okay. Why were you scared of the FBI?
7 A Well, because OCS showed up to our house and said, "We
8 want to take your son." And we said, "Well, let's just do the
9 interview by your policies." And they said, "No."
11 THE WITNESS: And then --
12 MS. LAMOUREUX: This is all hearsay.
13 THE COURT: Yeah. The objection's sustained. The jury
14 should disregard the reference to what OCS did or said, rather.
15 THE WITNESS: We were unable to get OCS to conduct the
16 interview according to their usual policies.
17 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
18 Q Okay.
19 A And then we got some phone calls that very much concerned
20 us.
21 Q Okay. And at some point did you get a call from Steve
22 Gibson?
24 MR. TRAVERSO: I'll rephrase the question.
25 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
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1 Q Did you get a call from the military post, from an MP?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Was there some sort of concern, or what was the call
4 about?
5 A I think he sent us a Facebook message and said --
7 MR. TRAVERSO: It's operative fact, Your Honor, of why
8 he did what he did and when he did it. Goes to his -- well --
9 THE COURT: The objection's sustained.
10 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
11 Q Okay. Based on -- did you get -- you got a call from an
12 MP. Correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay. Based on the call from the MP, what did you do?
15 A We had a meeting with him.
16 Q Okay. And what was your concern?
17 A My wife and I relayed to him that we were worried and
18 scared about this OCS thing and that we had gotten -- that we
19 were worried and scared about this OCS thing and that we were
20 aware of FBI or U.S. marshals asking questions about us around
21 town. And so the feds being involved and OCS not willing to
22 follow their policies was very, very scary for us. And we
23 asked him, "What can we do?"
24 Q Okay. When we -- was he there on a social visit with you?
25 A I don't think he was official -- official duty.
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1 Q Okay. Did --
2 A We were -- he was just wearing regular clothes and we were
3 just meeting in a -- sat at a picnic table near his house.
5 speculation.
6 MR. TRAVERSO: Well --
8 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
9 Q The -- when he was communicating with you, what was -- was
10 there -- what was your response to his --
12 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
13 Q What was your response?
14 A My -- my feeling and my state of mind after talking to him
15 was that there --
16 MS. LAMOUREUX: Nonresponsive.
18 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
19 Q Go ahead.
20 A There were U.S. marshals that were trying to get me and my
21 wife into a shootout, to fix the Schaeffer Cox problem.
22 Q Okay.
23 A And using our son to do it.
24 Q Did Mr. -- did the M -- did Mr. Gibson ever advise you one
25 way or the other?
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
26
COX - DIRECT
1 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection. Hearsay. Calls for
2 hearsay.
3 MR. TRAVERSO: I'm not asking for what he said. I'm
4 just asking if he was advised by him.
6 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
7 Q Can answer the question.
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. Did you follow his advice?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay. What did you do?
12 A We -- we kept working with our attorney --
13 Q Okay.
14 A -- showed up for all of our hearings, and got the
15 independent psychologist that he recommended involved in the
16 case.
17 Q Okay.
18 A And we -- we moved out of our house too.
19 Q Okay. You moved out of your house?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay. Where'd you move to?
22 A We were couch-surfing all around town.
23 Q Okay. Did you ever visit Ron Wall again?
24 A No, not after that.
25 Q Okay. Did you ever try to --
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
27
COX - DIRECT
1 A At -- at least not in relation to that. I probably saw
2 him more, but not on that.
3 Q Okay.
4 A I don't want to --
5 Q All right.
6 A I -- I'm not sure, though.
7 Q Not regarding the OCS matter?
8 A I see Ron a lot, so --
9 Q Okay. It wasn't regarding OC --
10 A But not -- not like --
11 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection, Your Honor. Is there a
12 question here?
13 THE COURT: Yeah. Let's go by --
15 THE COURT: -- question and answer now. What's the
16 question?
17 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
18 Q Did you have any further contact with Ron Wall regarding
19 the OCS matter?
20 A Not regarding the -- the OCS matter.
21 Q All right. Thank you. Well, after you moved out, what
22 were you trying to do at that point? Were you still -- I mean,
23 what was going on through your mind at that point?
24 A We just wanted to -- to get the interview done and out of
25 the way. We --
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
28
COX - DIRECT
1 Q Did it get done?
2 A We figured it could -- it would go well, yeah. We went in
3 front of Judge MacDonald with our attorney, and I pretty
4 much --
5 Q Okay.
6 A -- spilled my guts.
7 Q Okay.
8 A And we --
9 Q And --
10 A -- worked it out with the Alaska assistant attorney
11 general and the OCS worker.
12 Q Okay.
13 A And we told -- my wife and I just told them what our
14 concerns were. And they worked with us, and we set up the
15 interview, and it went great. And we got a --
17 THE WITNESS: -- glowing report.
19 THE COURT: I think we're beyond the question now.
20 What's --
21 MR. TRAVERSO: Now --
22 THE COURT: -- the question?
23 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
24 Q -- after that got resolved, did anything else happen to
25 you?
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
29
COX - DIRECT
1 A Can you be a little more --
2 Q Related -- was there --
3 A -- a little more specific?
4 Q -- anything else that happened to you regarding OCS or
5 anything like that, or was that finished?
6 A No, that's the last -- it --
7 Q Okay.
8 A We just go the report and that was it.
9 Q Okay. In June of 2010 as well, did you get contacted
10 regarding a meeting at Pike's Landing?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. Who called the meeting?
13 A Bill -- Bill Fulton.
14 Q Okay. Without getting to what he said to you, what was
15 the purpose of the meeting?
16 A I didn't -- I never really figured out what the purpose of
17 the meeting was. I --
18 Q Okay.
19 A It just -- just seemed weird. That's why I brought Les
20 and --
21 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection. Nonresponsive.
22 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
23 Q Okay. We'll get to that later. Just a step at a time.
24 Did you go there with somebody?
25 A Yes.
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
30
COX - DIRECT
1 Q And who was that?
2 A Les Zerbe and I.
3 Q Okay.
4 A And then Jeremy Baker showed up a little later.
5 Q Okay. And who was present at Pike's Landing?
6 A Bill and his sidekick.
7 Q Okay. Do you know his name -- nickname or --
8 A Jesus.
9 Q Jesus, okay. Was there something being asked of you to
10 do? Without saying what someone said, was there something that
11 somebody wanted you to do?
12 A Yeah.
13 Q What did -- what was that?
14 A Lead a big, violent outburst.
15 Q Why?
16 A I -- I didn't think there was a reason. I don't -- I
17 don't know. It was -- I was -- I was pretty quiet at that
18 meeting. I just sort of listened and --
20 THE WITNESS: -- asked questions.
25 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
31
COX - DIRECT
1 Q You were pretty what?
2 A I was pretty quiet.
5 THE COURT: What's the next question?
6 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
7 Q What was the whole -- I mean, what was the conclusion of
8 this meeting? I mean, what were you supposed to do afterwards?
9 Was there something that was being asked of you to do?
10 MS. LAMOUREUX: Asked and answered.
12 THE WITNESS: No. I -- I wasn't -- I wasn't asked to
13 do anything -- to do anything.
14 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
15 Q Okay. Did you at any point during June of 2010 or any
16 other time come up with some -- what we call warrants for --
18 MR. TRAVERSO: The -- I just need.
19 THE COURT: Oh, he may answer.
20 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
21 Q You can answer.
22 A No, I -- no --
23 Q Okay.
24 A -- I did not.
25 Q After the Pike's Landing meeting, was there another event
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
32
COX - DIRECT
1 that occurred shortly after that that you were invited to go
2 to?
3 A Yes.
4 Q What was that?
5 A The Blondie's meeting.
6 Q Okay. And does Blondie's have another name?
7 A Yeah. Far North Tactical.
8 Q Okay. What was going on at Blondie's at the -- was
9 this -- when was that? The next day?
10 A Yeah, that was the following night.
11 Q Okay. What was going on at Blondie's's?
12 A Was a big powwow --
13 Q Okay.
14 A -- that all of my -- all the people I know and respect.
15 Q Okay. Was this a previously scheduled meeting?
16 A No, I didn't know about it.
17 Q Okay. Who contacted you?
18 A It was either Bill or Aaron.
19 Q Okay.
20 A Or might have been both.
21 Q Okay. What time was the meeting?
22 A In the evening. I don't remember, but end of the day.
23 Q Did you go there?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Who'd you go with?
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
33
COX - DIRECT
1 A I -- I called Les and told him to go down there, and --
2 and then I showed up a little later. We didn't arrive
3 together, but we went -- we were there together.
4 Q Okay.
5 A Well, and everybody else that was there, I went --
6 Q Okay.
7 A -- with them.
8 Q What did you understand was -- during the daytime, what
9 was going on at Blondie's?
10 A There had been a -- a fundraiser, like a -- like a grand
11 opening or something.
12 Q Okay. So in the evening, there was a meeting called?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And what was the purpose of the meeting as you understood
15 it?
16 A Again, I was just confused, so I didn't understand the
17 purpose of the meeting.
18 Q Okay.
19 A I --
20 Q All right. Was there somebody yelling -- talking to you
21 or telling you what to do, or what?
22 A Yeah. Bill did most of the talking at that meeting too.
23 Q Okay. Did the subject of killing judges come up?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Did you initiate that?
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
34
COX - DIRECT
1 A No.
2 Q Did you have a plan to kill judges?
5 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
6 Q Did you have some sort of plan to --
7 A No, that's -- that was why they were mad at me.
8 Q Okay. Who was mad at you?
9 A Bill Fulton -- yeah, I shouldn't say they. Just he.
10 Q Okay.
11 A No, actually, I should say they.
12 Q Okay.
13 A Because everybody else was put out and saying, "What are
14 you thinking?"
15 Q Well, what is your understanding of why they were angry at
16 you? What was your under --
18 MR. TRAVERSO: What was --
19 MS. LAMOUREUX: Speculation.
20 MR. TRAVERSO: What was your understanding?
21 THE COURT: You may answer.
22 THE WITNESS: My understanding of why they were angry
23 at me is because they were under the impression that I had a
24 plan to act out violently.
25 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
35
COX - DIRECT
1 Q Okay.
2 A And they disapproved of that and thought I was crazy.
3 Q Okay.
4 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection. Move to strike that last
5 part of the answer.
6 THE COURT: Oh, the answer may stand.
7 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
8 Q Well, what did you do? What -- did anything happen at
9 this meeting where this was going on?
10 A Yes.
11 Q What else happened?
12 A Well, I -- I reassured them that that's not me. I'm not
13 that way.
14 Q Okay. And did you observe something happen?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did things get heated?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Okay.
21 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
22 Q Okay. What happened? What did you observe?
23 A Bill Fulton attacked Les Zerbe with a knife about this
24 long.
25 MS. LAMOUREUX: Can the record reflect how long
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
36
COX - DIRECT
1 Schaeffer Cox indicated, Mr. Traverso?
2 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
3 Q How about -- how long was the knife that you observed?
4 A It was a -- it was a fixed-blade knife, I would say about
5 six inches or so --
6 Q Okay.
7 A -- above his -- above his hand.
8 Q Okay. Did anybody get hurt?
9 A Not physically.
10 Q Okay. What happened --
11 A That -- that I know of.
12 Q What did you observe happen with -- after that?
13 A Well, Les kept hiding out in the corner.
14 Q Okay.
15 A And I just kind of kept my mouth shut.
16 Q Okay.
17 A Because I didn't want it to happen to me.
18 Q Okay. Did you stay there or did you leave?
19 A We left as soon as we could.
20 Q Okay. All right. Did you have a firearm with you?
21 A I can't remember, but I almost always do.
22 Q Okay. Did you pull it out?
23 A No.
24 Q Okay. Did you threaten anybody?
25 A No.
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
37
COX - DIRECT
1 Q Okay. What did you decide to do based on the events that
2 transpired at Blondie's?
3 A Stay far, far away from Bill and his ilk.
4 Q Okay. All right. Do you know Bill Rensel and --
5 A Oh, I turned Bill in.
6 Q Okay. Okay. Did you know Bill Rensel and Maria Rensel?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. And how do you know them?
9 A Family, friends, like-minded people, worked on campaigns
10 together. They run the IACC clear -- we're working towards the
11 same goals.
12 Q Okay. Did you call any other law enforcement officers at
13 all after this June of -- this incident that happened at
14 Blondie's?
15 A I'm sure I did. I try to keep in regular contact with --
16 Q Okay.
17 A -- them.
18 Q Okay. Why do you do that?
19 A Same reason you keep in regular contact with your opponent
20 in a -- in a political campaign.
21 Q Okay.
22 A You disagree, but you need to be in touch.
23 Q Now, in August of 2010, there was a -- as I understand,
24 some sort of a --
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
38
COX - DIRECT
1 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
2 Q In August of 2010, was there some event that took place
3 for the militia?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. And what was the nature of that event?
6 A A commissioning ceremony and a barbecue.
7 Q Okay. And where was that -- take place?
8 A Coleman Barney's house.
9 Q Okay. After the events of Blondie's, did you seek some
10 sort of advice from somebody?
12 THE COURT: Well, that question is leading in form.
13 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
14 Q Okay. Did you try to get any help after that incident at
15 Blondie's?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay. What did you do?
18 A Well, I had established a really good relationship --
21 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
22 Q Okay. What did you do? We'll get to that later. What
23 did you do?
24 A I talked to Steve Cooper, who's the federal prosecutor in
25 Fairbanks.
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
39
COX - DIRECT
1 Q Okay. How do you know Steve?
2 A We're friends.
3 Q Okay. How long have you known him before that contact?
4 A I met him -- our first meeting was in 2008, I believe.
5 Q What transpired when you contacted Mr. Cooper?
6 A At that first meeting?
7 Q Yeah.
8 A Well, I just heard good things about him, and I wanted
9 to --
11 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
12 Q Okay. What transpired in the first meeting? Don't talk
13 about what other people said.
14 A We -- we talked in a --
15 Q Okay.
16 A -- diner for --
17 Q Okay.
18 A -- about six hours.
19 Q Okay. All right.
20 A Had lunch and dinner.
21 Q Okay. Well, at some point after that incident involving
22 Mr. Fulton, did you contact Mr. Cooper again?
23 A Yes, I did.
24 Q Okay. And did you seek his counsel, basically?
25 A Ye --
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
40
COX - DIRECT
3 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
4 Q Okay. Why did you contact Mr. Cooper?
5 A Mr. Cooper was a mentor to me and I wanted his advice.
6 Q Okay. Thank you. Not what he said, but what did you tell
7 him?
8 A At which meeting? We've had a lot of meetings.
9 Q Well, at the last meeting that you had with him after the
10 Bill Fulton matter.
11 A Well, the last meeting that was after the Bill Fulton
12 matter had to do with the Bill Fulton matter. And I told him
13 that --
16 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
17 Q Go ahead.
18 A I told him that there were people out there in the militia
19 movement that were dangerous, bad folks, and I didn't know if I
20 could have enough influence to keep them from --
22 THE WITNESS: -- doing bad things.
23 MS. LAMOUREUX: This is nonresponsive and hearsay.
24 MR. TRAVERSO: He's talking about what he said.
25 THE COURT: What he said is not hearsay.
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
41
COX - DIRECT
1 MS. LAMOUREUX: It's an out-of-court admission, Your
2 Honor. It's a prior consistent -- I don't know, it -- there's
3 no rule that allows it.
4 THE COURT: The rules of evidence are basically rules
5 of exclusion. The objection's overruled.
6 THE WITNESS: I expressed my grave concern with -- with
7 those type of guys, those tough guys.
8 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
9 Q Okay. All right. Now, after the -- well, back to the --
10 in August of 2010 at the commissioning, was this? What was
11 going at on Coleman Barney's residence for 8 p.m.?
12 A Just a barbecue, people who are interested in finding out
13 what it's about, what the -- what APM was about, or that are
14 interested in joining up or -- or just want to come to a
15 barbecue. It's kind of a social get-together, and people who
16 want to join up can join up there.
17 Q Okay. Did you meet a man there by the name of J.R. Olson?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay. And tell us about the commissioning process. How
20 does that work?
21 A Well, we pretty much say, "This is what we believe, this
22 is what we stand for. And if you stand for that too, then join
23 up. And if you don't, then we're not who you're looking for."
24 Q Okay. So is it a open or closed commissioning? Other
25 words, do -- are there certain --
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
42
COX - DIRECT
1 A Yes. Yes --
2 Q -- do you have to be screened?
5 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
6 Q Do you have to be -- well, how does someone get admitted
7 to the Alaska Peacemakers Militia?
8 A Just take the oath and agree with the principles. We
9 don't do background checks or --
10 Q Okay.
11 A -- or, you know, people don't have to be any -- fit any
12 special criteria. We've got all kinds of people in there.
13 Q Okay. Did anything -- did -- after the August event, when
14 was -- were you speaking out, doing speeches at radio stations?
15 A Yes, that was pretty -- pretty routine for me.
16 Q Okay. How often would you do that?
17 A Few times a week --
18 Q Okay.
19 A -- probably on average. Sometimes more, sometimes less.
20 Q Did you do anything at KJNP?
22 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
23 Q Okay. What -- can you name some of the places that you
24 spoke at?
25 A KJNP.
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
43
COX - DIRECT
1 Q Okay. And how often did you speak there?
2 A Well, they've got a Saturday Morning program called Over
3 the Coffee Cup that is every Saturday, and I hit that most
4 Saturdays.
5 Q Okay.
6 A And then they have a TV show in the evenings, and I, you
7 know, a few times a year would hit that, maybe three or four.
8 Q Okay. In November of 2010 -- I think November 23rd --
9 there was a -- an engagement there that you were going to speak
10 at. Is that right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. What -- can you tell us about what the nature of
13 that was supposed to be? What was the purpose of going over
14 there that particular day?
15 A Well, we were talking about -- talking -- talking about
16 what we were doing.
18 A And we had some -- some ongoing concerns even though the
19 Seth issue had been -- the OCS issue had been --
21 THE WITNESS: -- resolved.
23 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
24 Q Okay. Let me break it down, okay? Don't --
25 A Yeah.
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
44
COX - DIRECT
1 Q Just -- do you know what the subject matter was going to
2 be about as far as your speaking engagement at KJNP?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay. What was it?
5 A We were going to be talking about the grassroots activism,
6 cultural change, things we were doing.
7 Q Okay.
8 A But we all are also very concerned about people who
9 thought that violence was the answer.
10 Q Okay.
11 A First step instead of a last resort.
12 Q Okay. At some point, Mr. Cox, did you send people out
13 there with guns and hornet's nests and things of that nature?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What happened? Why did --
16 A Nothing.
17 Q -- you do that?
18 A Why did we do that?
19 Q Yes.
20 A Because I was instilled with a very real fear that if I
21 kept trying to pull a Gandhi, Bill Fulton would kill me, blame
22 it on the feds, and start a big war.
23 Q How would he blame that -- I don't understand. Blame it
24 on the feds? Blame you for killing?
25 A I didn't ask him how he was going to do that.
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
45
COX - DIRECT
1 Q Okay.
2 A I -- he had me at "kill me."
3 Q Okay.
4 A I -- with that.
5 Q Was there -- did you instruct the security de -- was it a
6 security detail or what kind of men were these that came out
7 there with you?
8 A It was -- it was the militia guys.
9 Q Okay. Was there a meeting before they went out there?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And were you present at the meeting?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Okay. And did you give the men any instruction about
14 KJNP?
15 A Yes.
16 Q What did you tell them?
17 A I went over a game plan and the principles of how we
18 should conduct ourselves, and that's what was on the
19 whiteboard.
20 Q And were -- did you give some instructions regarding how
21 to deal with someone who came over to KJNP, people who were not
22 guests at the actual station?
23 A Yes.
24 Q What kind of instruction did you give them?
25 A Well, depends on who it was and -- and what they were
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
46
COX - DIRECT
1 doing.
2 Q Excuse me?
3 A It -- it would depend on who they were and what they --
4 what they wanted.
5 Q Go ahead. I'm sorry. Let me ask you the next question.
6 Did you have specific instructions on this that were
7 transferred over to some piece of paper or board or anything of
8 that nature?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. And were -- what were your instructions regarding
11 use of force?
12 A It had to be progressive and it had to be -- it had to
13 correlate to the force that was being used against you. And
14 it -- you could not be the initiator or the escalator.
15 Q Okay. Was there any shoot first, talk later, kind of
16 policy?
17 A Not from us.
18 Q Okay. All right. Were there -- what time of the day was
19 this? Was this a night --
20 A Yes.
21 Q -- or a day? At night?
22 A It was night.
23 Q Okay. And what are the lighting conditions there at that
24 time?
25 A It was dark.
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
47
COX - DIRECT
1 Q Okay. Did -- were you aware whether or not that was
2 changed as far as for the security detail?
3 A Yeah. When I -- when -- when Marti and I showed up for
4 the -- for the interview, there was lights lighting up the
5 parking lot.
6 Q Okay. Did anything happen at KJNP outside of you -- your
7 speaking engagement?
8 A No. No incident, no --
9 Q Okay.
10 A -- problems, no troubles.
11 Q Okay. Were you wearing a -- any body armor?
12 A Yeah. I wore a bulletproof vest 24/7.
13 Q Okay.
14 A But nothing extra or special for that occasion.
15 Q Why did you wear body armor 24/7?
16 A Because I was afraid of Bill.
17 Q Okay.
18 A And I didn't want to wind up like Joe Vogler either,
19 because I was kind of afraid of the feds too.
20 Q Okay. I want to jump a little bit to your contacts with
21 TSA. Okay. Can you talk to me -- can you talk to us, please,
22 about what happens when you go to the airport?
23 A Oh, yeah, it's a circus. I could -- I could --
24 Q I don't want you to talk --
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
48
COX - DIRECT
1 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
2 Q I don't want you to talk -- you know, talk about what they
3 said. I just want you to explain what was your approach? Were
4 you there to threaten anybody or anything of the sort?
5 A No. No.
6 Q Okay.
7 A No.
8 Q Could you tell us why it is that you had some sort of
9 encounter there at TSA?
10 A Well, any time that I have time, I try to make a big to-do
11 going through security. If I'm in a hurry, I won't. But if
12 I -- if I have the time, I make a big -- a big -- a big --
13 Q To-do.
14 A Taboo, yeah, big show, big hassle.
15 Q Regarding what?
16 A Well, when I get up to the baggage claim, they say, "Is
17 this your bag?" And I say, "Yes." And they say, "We -- can we
18 look in it?" And I say, "Well, only if you do it the legal
19 way." Getting kind funny, and it just kind of -- it goes from
20 there.
21 Q Okay. Why -- well, has it been a confrontation that has
22 arisen out of that when you do that?
23 A Well, no, I wouldn't say that I'm confrontational. It's
24 just a -- a shenanigan. If they're going to violate the
25 Constitution and hassle everybody, I'm going to hassle them
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
49
COX - DIRECT
1 right back about that they should be following the
2 Constitution. It's a -- it's an educational fandango, for
3 whatever screener is unlucky enough to get Schaeffer Cox.
4 Q Okay. Did you ever have TSA employees on a hit list?
5 A No.
6 Q Okay. Do you know Michael Anderson?
7 A Yes.
8 Q How do you know Michael Anderson?
9 A Just the same circles of constitutionally-minded
10 grassroots activists --
11 Q Okay.
12 A -- in Fairbanks.
13 Q Okay. When you're with -- how often did you see Michael?
14 A Not really that often.
15 Q Did he belong to the Interior Alaska Conservative
16 Coalition?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And you belonged to that too?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And the Rensels?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And was there -- can you name some other people, perhaps?
23 A Dave Giessel, Rick Zickma (ph). I know there's thousands
24 of people.
25 Q Okay. Did you ever form some sort of a plan to kill
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
50
COX - DIRECT
1 someone by the name of Stedler?
2 A No, Tom -- no.
3 Q Okay.
4 A Tom Stedler?
5 Q Yes.
6 A No.
7 Q Okay. How you -- do you know Tom Stedler?
8 A Yes, I do.
9 Q How do you know him?
10 A He's part of the Interior Alaska Conservative Coalition.
11 Q Okay. And how about Trina Beauchamp?
12 A She is a dear, dear family friend.
13 Q Okay. How long have you known her?
14 A Since a few years after we moved to Alaska. I don't know.
15 Six, seven years.
16 Q Okay. Did you tell Michael Anderson to put some names on
17 a diagram regarding federal employees?
18 A No. If you're referring to the exhibit that --
19 Q Yes.
20 A -- the notepad with the -- no, I did not --
21 Q Okay.
22 A -- tell him to do that.
23 Q Okay. Tell us about how much time you've spent with Mr.
24 Anderson. Are you good friends, close --
25 A Well, we're -- we're very -- we're pretty like-minded, so
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
51
COX - DIRECT
1 that kind of makes you good friends right off the bat without
2 having to spend a lot of time together.
4 A But we've seen each other at events and in -- in passing,
5 but we -- we don't go fishing together or anything like that.
6 Q Okay.
7 A We probably see each other every month or two for a few
8 hours.
9 Q Okay.
10 A And occasional phone calls.
11 Q There was some testimony in this case about a list. Did
12 you tell somebody to write a list of -- a target list of people
13 to get killed?
14 A No.
15 Q Okay. Have you asked Michael Anderson to do something for
16 you?
17 A Yes.
18 Q What was it?
19 A Get -- I called Mike and asked him to get Trooper Burke
20 Barrick's home address --
21 Q Yes.
22 A -- so that I could go visit him --
23 Q Okay.
24 A -- regarding the OCS thing. Because Burke Barrett's the
25 head of the Fairbanks trooper --
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
52
COX - DIRECT
2 THE COURT: Beyond the question.
3 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
4 Q Okay, I'll --
5 A Okay.
6 Q You know, just answer it it in part, then I will --
7 A All right.
8 Q -- answer you such -- ask you (indiscernible) --
9 A I'm -- I'm trying to get the rhythm here.
10 Q Okay. Why did you want the address of Trooper Barrick?
11 A Because I wanted -- because I know he was in charge of
12 the -- of the Fairbanks troopers. And if --
13 Q Okay.
14 A I wanted --
15 Q Just stop right --
16 A -- his help.
17 Q Okay. Why not just go through the trooper station where
18 he's at?
19 A Because this was really important and deeply personal,
20 with our son.
21 Q Okay. And did you know Trooper Barrick?
22 A Only as Schaeffer Cox, the grassroots activist. And we
23 had kind of a friendly, professional relationship in that
24 regard, as an opponent to the -- some of the conduct of the
25 troopers. And -- because I would keep in touch with him. But
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1 I didn't have a -- a -- a personal -- a personal relationship
2 or family relationship or anything like that.
3 Q Okay. At some point did you have contact with Trooper
4 Barrick over a -- over some other incident in North Pole?
5 A Yeah, that was quite a bit later --
6 Q Oh, okay.
7 A -- actually. Yeah.
8 Q All right. Well, what was that about?
9 A Well, there was this grumpy old guy that lived out on
10 Chena Hot Springs Road that was giving the troopers some
11 trouble.
12 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection. Relevance.
13 MR. TRAVERSO: This is going to go to his nature of his
14 relationship with Mr. Barrick, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: The objection's overruled.
16 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
17 Q Go ahead.
18 A This grumpy old guy named Brad Baker that lived out on
19 Chena Hot Springs Road, and --
20 Q Just keep it short.
21 A Yeah. He got in a scuff in an -- somebody that was in his
22 shed or something. But, anyway, long story short, the troopers
23 wind up there at his house and he won't come out. And he calls
24 me and says, "I'm afraid these troopers are going to" -- that's
25 hearsay, sorry. I --
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1 Q You were contacted by --
2 A I was contacted.
3 Q Okay.
4 A And --
5 Q Was this (indiscernible)?
6 A I was contacted by Brad Baker.
7 Q Okay.
8 A He called me. And then I was contacted by Burke Barrick.
9 Q Okay.
10 A And so I went out there and met the two troopers that were
11 trying to get him to calm down.
12 Q Okay.
13 A And I -- Brad would listen to me, but not --
14 Q Okay.
15 A -- the troopers. And so I got Brad to calm down and come
16 out and talk to the troopers, and got things defused.
17 Q Okay. Well, let's then go back in time. We were
18 discussing Trooper Barrick at an earlier time.
20 Q Can -- did you ever go see Trooper Barrick at his home?
21 A Well, I was going to --
22 Q Okay.
23 A -- but then I was like, you know, I don't really know him
24 that well, I'd rather, if I'm going and asking for help, go
25 talk to somebody who -- who knows us and who we got a prior
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COX - DIRECT
1 relationship with. So I called him right back and said,
2 "Actually, can you get me -- where does Ron Wall live these
3 days?"
4 Q Okay. You knew where he lived -- but you knew where Ron
5 Wall lived before, because you said he was a neighbor, correct?
6 A Uh-huh (affirmative). Yeah. He lived across the street
7 from my parents when I still lived at home. And then he moved,
8 and I did -- didn't know where he moved to.
9 Q Okay.
10 A I knew it was in town, but I --
11 Q Okay.
12 A -- didn't know where.
13 Q Okay. Did you contact Trooper Wall?
14 A Yep, that's -- that's the meeting where Marti and I went
15 out to talk to him.
16 Q Where did you go? Oh, to his house.
17 A To his house, yeah.
18 Q Okay. Did you ever go to the trooper station and talk to
19 Ron Wall?
20 A Oh, yeah, we -- I've been to the trooper station to talk
21 to Ron Wall and Burke Barrick all -- many times.
22 Q Okay. Regarding Seth, or did you talk to him about --
23 A No, just keeping open channels of communication. I knew
24 they didn't like me or what I was doing, but you can do that in
25 America.
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2 MR. TRAVERSO: Okay. Okay.
3 MS. LAMOUREUX: And speculative.
5 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
6 Q You met J.R. Olson in August of 2010. Correct?
7 A Yep.
8 Q Okay. How much contact did you have with Mr. Olson from
9 August of 2010 to -- till February 4th of 2010? I -- I'm
10 sorry, February 4th of 2011.
11 A Of -- very little. He might have come by the house once.
12 But a lot of people stop by my house. Very little. Minimal.
13 I still didn't really know him.
14 Q Okay. During that interim period of time between August
15 2010 and February 4th or any other time period, for that
16 matter, did you ever ask Michael Anderson to do surveillance of
17 people that you were talking about?
18 A No.
19 Q Okay. Okay. Did you do surveillance of Ron Wall's house?
20 A No.
21 Q Okay. All right. Do you recall an incident where a man
22 that you know was -- called you regarding his -- he was stopped
23 on Nenana -- on the Nenana Highway in Fairbanks?
24 A Yeah.
25 Q Or, I'm sorry, go -- on the way to Nenana?
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1 A Yeah. I --
2 Q Yes.
3 A -- I know the incident you're referring to.
4 Q Okay. Did you speak to Malik Jones as an attorney? Did
5 you --
6 A Can you -- can you --
7 Q -- when -- did you get --
8 A -- break this apart --
9 Q -- on the phone -- when --
10 A -- can you break that question into two parts?
11 Q Did you talk to Malik Jones any time that evening?
12 A I -- I don't really remember it, but I've seen him as
13 discovery that I did. And I -- I kind of remember that, yeah.
14 Q Okay. Why did you get a call from the party on the --
16 MR. TRAVERSO: I'm asking why he got a call.
17 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
18 Q Did you get a call from when the troopers stopped this
19 man?
20 A Yeah. Dave Rohner --
21 Q Okay.
22 A -- called me.
23 Q Okay. And what'd you do?
24 A I asked him, "What's up?" And it was apparent that he
25 had --
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1 Q Some sort of --
2 A -- bad -- some problem with his tags.
3 Q Okay.
4 A And that he was getting arrested.
5 Q Okay. And did he ask for some assistance from you?
6 A Yeah, he wanted me to bail -- to bail him out.
7 Q Okay.
8 A (Indiscernible).
9 Q Did you bail him out?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay. Did you talk to him on the phone as representing
12 yourself as being an attorney?
13 A No. I hate attorneys.
14 Q Well, did you talk -- did you -- you bailed him out in
15 Fairbanks. Right?
16 A Yeah.
17 Q Okay. All right. Did you know Malik Jones from any point
18 in your life at all? I mean, did you have -- had you had any
19 encounter with him other than the Dave Rohner phone call?
20 A Well, I -- I thought I knew Malik Jones, until he walked
21 in here and was a black guy.
22 Q Okay.
23 A I thought I'd met him at -- when he dropped off Dave
24 Rohner. I thought I talked to Malik Jones. But appar -- it
25 was a different --
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1 Q Well, who --
2 A -- different guy.
3 Q Who was it that you thought was Malik Jones when you went
4 to the jail?
5 A The guy that -- the -- because I drove down to the jail to
6 bail Dave Rohner out, and then here comes the trooper with Dave
7 Rohner in the back, and when he dropped him off at the jail and
8 came back out, he talked to me for -- you know --
9 Q He was not African-American?
10 A -- a few minutes. No.
11 Q Okay.
12 A I thought that was Malik Jones, though.
13 Q Okay.
14 A I didn't ask his name. I just assumed --
15 Q All right.
16 A -- wrongly.
17 Q How -- when you -- going to February 4th, 2011, what was
18 the -- did you have a visit from J.R. Olson?
19 A Yes.
20 Q What was that about? Do you know?
21 A Well, they were getting ready to go down to this militia
22 conference in Anchorage. And --
23 Q Just stop right there. What militia conference was going
24 on? I mean, who was sponsoring that?
25 A A guy named Dave Luntz (ph), who I've never met.
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1 Q Okay. And these are militias from around the state?
2 A Yeah.
3 Q Okay. And were you invited?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Were you going to go?
6 A No.
7 Q You weren't going to go, ever?
8 A I thought about it. I really wanted to go see Norm Olson.
9 But I did not want to see Bill Fulton.
10 Q Okay. At some point you meet up with J.R. Where does
11 he -- where do you meet up with him at?
12 A They came by my house before they drove down there. I --
13 I told them, "You need to come -- if you guys are going, you
14 need to come talk to me before you guys go down there."
15 Q Okay. What was going on on February 4th that prompted
16 Homer to come by there? Anything other than the militia
17 conference?
18 A Oh, why did the meeting have to be at my house?
19 Q Yeah.
20 A Well, my wife and I had -- had just delivered our little
21 baby girl.
22 Q Okay. Did you talk to -- was there anybody else with Mr.
23 Olson?
24 A Yeah. Lonnie was with him.
25 Q Okay. All right. Did you make some requests of Mr. Olson
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1 while they were down there to get C4 and pineapple bodies and
2 things of that nature?
3 A No, I didn't ask for C4. I did want him to get as many of
4 the pineapple bodies as -- as they could find, the one that
5 actually -- actually look like the pineapples, like the ones in
6 the movies.
7 Q Okay. How long was your meeting with J.R. in -- at your
8 house?
9 A I don't know. Probably an hour or so.
10 Q Okay. Were you afraid of J.R. for any reason or anything
11 like that?
12 A No, I was -- I was never afraid of J.R.
13 Q Okay.
14 A At all.
15 Q All right. And how long -- how do you know Lonnie Vernon?
16 A Same. Just from the grassroots liberty activism.
17 Q Okay. Had you done anything socially between August of
18 2010 and February 4th with J.R. Olson?
19 A With J.R.?
20 Q Yeah.
21 A Socially?
22 Q Yes, socially.
23 A He might have come by the house or something, listened in
24 on some conference calls, that kind of thing. But it --
25 Q Okay.
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1 A -- wasn't like leisure, fun stuff. It was --
2 Q Okay.
3 A I -- I guess that is kind of a hobby, I guess, for us,
4 when you're into that.
5 Q Did he have some sort of a rank or something in the
6 militia?
7 A Well, he was just brand-new. He was a -- a private. But
8 I bumped him up to sergeant to go down to this meeting, just so
9 he wouldn't be a, you know, buck private down there.
10 Q Okay. Talk to us about the ranking system that you used
11 in the militia.
12 A Well, you start out as a private. And as you bring in
13 more guys under you, you move up in rank. And the more guys
14 you've brought in under -- under you, the higher you get in
15 rank. And then the leadership is people whose rank is, you
16 know, major and above.
17 Q Okay. Do the militias -- did the militia have what's been
18 described as weapons caches?
19 A No.
20 Q Okay. Did you have --
21 A Well, it depends on what you're -- how -- you've got to
22 define your term.
23 Q Okay.
24 A Does some guns in the closet constitute a weapons cache
25 at --
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2 THE WITNESS: -- your house?
4 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
5 Q Okay, no, no. Just let me ask the questions --
6 A Okay. When we went through that list of guns that you had
7 earlier --
9 Q -- or firearms --
11 Q -- where did you store those?
12 A In a gun safe.
13 Q Okay. Where did -- did you store any of those firearms at
14 the shed in North Pole?
15 A Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16 Q Okay.
17 A Typically in a gun safe. But I had moved them all out to
18 the -- to the shed --
19 Q Okay.
20 A -- earlier --
21 Q Okay.
22 A -- that year.
23 Q Did you -- you owned some property in North Pole?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Okay. And -- but the shed you used personally?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. How often did you go out to the shed?
3 A Well, probably two or three times a month.
4 Q Okay. Did you go there by yourself or with other people?
5 A Both.
6 Q Okay. What kind of items were in the shed?
7 A Like business tools, lawn -- lawn care and landscaping,
8 stuff like that.
9 Q Okay.
10 A You know, because --
11 Q Did you have a -- something -- did you have firearms in
12 there?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay. More than that which we have discussed or less than
15 that than we've -- that we've discussed?
16 A Less -- less than that what we discussed.
17 Q Okay. Were there any live grenades?
18 A No.
19 Q Specifically, eight grenades?
20 A No.
21 Q Have you ever had a live grenade?
22 A Nope, never.
23 Q Okay. Has your militia ever detonated a live grenade?
24 A Nope.
25 MR. TRAVERSO: If I could have a moment, Your Honor.
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COX - DIRECT
1 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
2 Q Did you -- when you were meeting with Lonnie Vernon and
3 J.R. Olson on February 4th, did you request the purchase that
4 he -- that somebody try to get you some C4?
5 A No, I've never requested C4.
6 Q Okay. What were the -- did you ask for -- what were your
7 instructions regarding the militia convention on February 5th
8 as to Lonnie Vernon and J.R. Olson?
9 A Well, my instructions were very, very explicit. I can
10 tell you what they are, but it might help to --
11 Q Yeah.
12 A -- if we've got that audio, if I could refresh my memory.
13 Q Okay.
14 A Do you want to do that --
15 Q Well, we'll hold off --
16 A -- or do you want me to do the best I can?
17 Q We'll hold off, we'll do it -- okay, we'll deal with that
18 in a little bit here. As to pineapple grenades, what did you
19 say about pineapple grenades?
20 A I said, "Get as many of the pineapples, pineapple -- you
21 know, the bodies -- as you can. If you find -- if you -- if
22 there's any -- anybody's got some down there, buy them, bring
23 them back."
24 Q Why?
25 A Because those are the ones that are in the movies. Those
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COX - DIRECT
1 are the ones that are iconic. Those are the ones that would
2 be -- think the FBI described them as "John Wayne grenades"
3 when they were up here.
4 Q Okay. But were you going to use them for some militia
5 activities or for any other reason, or just for yourself?
6 A Well, you can always sell them at a gun show for more than
7 you got them, because people are always looking for those. So
8 that's one reason, and we were planning to -- hadn't -- hadn't
9 gotten around to it yet, but thought that a grenade toss would
10 be a fun activity to do with the -- with the training fuses.
11 Q Okay.
12 A That -- that's why we wanted the eight-seconds.
13 Q Okay. When you go to gun shows, have you bought grenade
14 bodies or pineapple grenades?
15 A Uh-huh (affirmative). Oh, not --
16 Q I'm sorry.
17 A This is a ongoing --
18 Q I --
19 A -- problem of not dis --
20 Q I'm sorry. Didn't mean to say that. Have you ever
21 acquired pineapple grenades previously? Pineapple -- how have
22 you acquired grenade bodies, period?
23 A Army surplus store two-for-a-dollar bin, or gun shows
24 or --
25 Q All right.
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1 A -- just --
2 Q Okay. When Mr. Olson came by and Mr. Vernon, you stated
3 earlier that you had given them some instructions?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. But you had asked me to refresh your recollection
6 as to those instructions?
7 A Yeah, that would --
8 Q Okay.
9 A That would probably be helpful.
10 MR. TRAVERSO: Might be helpful to have a break now,
11 Your Honor, that -- set up and play that recording.
12 THE COURT: Yeah. It's about that time anyway. We'll
13 take about 15 minutes, folks.
14 THE CLERK: All rise. This matter is in recess for 15
15 minutes.
16 (Court recessed at 9:56 a.m., until 10:20 a.m.)
17 (Jury not present)
18 THE CLERK: All rise. His Honor the Court, this United
19 States District Court is again in session.
20 THE COURT: Please be seated. Let me say a couple of
21 things in regard to evidence. If you start a question with the
22 word "Did," you probably will be asking a leading question. If
23 you start a question of "What," "When", "Where," "Why," or
24 "How," it probably won't be leading. And that's just a good
25 guideline to avoid objections.
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1 Ms. Lamoureux, you looked at me like I didn't know what
2 I was talking about, and I guess I looked at you as though I
3 didn't think you knew what you were talking about, in regard to
4 your hearsay objection. I want to give you a chance to educate
5 me if I'm wrong. When a witness is on the stand and he says.
6 "At a time in the past, I said this or I said that," when he's
7 testifying that, I don't take that as hearsay. And I think you
8 do.
9 MS. LAMOUREUX: I do, Your Honor. My understanding is
10 it's still -- it's an out-of-court statement offered for the
11 truth of the matter asserted. It's not a question -- it's
12 about what he said. It's basically a prior consistent
13 statement. And there's no -- it's not a party admission -- a
14 party opponent admission, so I -- that's why I'm having a hard
15 time understanding why it is --
17 MS. LAMOUREUX: -- allowed. It's just a way of getting
18 in a lot of false exculpatory statements, because --
19 THE COURT: Some of that would come under 801(d)(2) --
20 wait a minute -- (d)(1) as consistent with the declarant's
21 testimony and is offered to rebut an express or implied charge
22 against the declarant of recent fabrication or in -- improper
23 influence or motive. Some of the questioned statements I think
24 would come under that category. And the other thing is, under
25 the hearsay definition, is a statement other than one made by
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1 the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing. And so
2 he is testifying now as to what he said at a different time,
3 but he's -- it's a statement made by the declarant while
4 testifying at the trial. And so that is the basic reason why I
5 think that's not hearsay. And in the scheme of the world, I
6 don't think it matters a whole lot anyway, but maybe it does.
7 All right, bring the jury in and -- if I'm wrong, I
8 appreciate being educated.
9 MR. SKROCKI: We'll take a look at it at noon and -- I
10 share her views, so we'll look at it later.
11 THE COURT: I also wanted to say, a lot of this is not
12 offered for the truth also. It -- some of what we're talking
13 about is offered for the fact it was said rather than for the
14 truth of what was said at a different time, which is a
15 distinction you have to make at any alleged hearsay objection.
16 (Jury present at 10:25 a.m.)
17 THE COURT: Okay, you may continue.
18 MR. TRAVERSO: Your Honor, we're offering --
19 THE CLERK: Your microphone, please.
20 MR. TRAVERSO: We're offering Exhibit 7, Francis
21 Schaeffer Cox Exhibit 7, offered to refresh the recollection of
22 Mr. Cox as to the instructions he gave on February 4th to Mr.
23 Vernon and Mr. J.R. Olson. And it's -- I have a transcript of
24 that proceeding -- of that audio.
25 MS. LAMOUREUX: Oh. No objection.
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1 MR. TRAVERSO: Okay, thank you. And at this time we'd
2 like to have a moment to --
3 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
4 MS. HADEN: I'm sorry. Is this something that he's
5 going to play in front of the jury to refresh the witness'
6 recollection?
7 MR. TRAVERSO: Yes.
8 MS. HADEN: I don't think that's proper, Your Honor. I
9 think the witness gets to listen to it, but I don't see how the
10 jury gets to listen to it.
11 THE COURT: Oh, it depends on the purpose that they
12 offer it.
13 MR. TRAVERSO: The exhibit also pertains to statements
14 that Mr. Cox made to both of them regarding staying away from
15 Mr. Fulton.
16 THE COURT: Well, if you're offering it for all
17 purposes, that's one thing. If you're --
18 MR. TRAVERSO: Yeah.
19 THE COURT: -- offering it to refresh recollection, Ms.
20 Haden is right.
21 MR. TRAVERSO: Well, he gave multiple instructions as
22 to what to do when he (indiscernible), so that's why.
24 MR. TRAVERSO: And you can't segment that.
25 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. If you're
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1 offering it for all purposes, that's one analysis.
3 THE COURT: If you're offering it only to refresh
4 recollection, Ms. Haden's objection is appropriate.
5 MR. TRAVERSO: Okay. I'm offering it for all purposes
6 as to all --
7 THE COURT: All right.
8 MR. TRAVERSO: -- the things that you said.
9 THE COURT: All right. Are there objections?
10 MS. LAMOUREUX: No objection.
11 MR. DOOLEY: No objection.
12 MS. HADEN: No objection.
13 THE COURT: All right. FSC-7 --
14 MR. TRAVERSO: FSC-7, correct.
15 THE COURT: -- may be admitted.
16 (Defendant Cox's Exhibit FSC-7 admitted)
17 MR. TRAVERSO: Yes. And that would be indexed at
18 number 31, Your Honor, on the binder.
19 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what page did you say?
20 MR. TRAVERSO: If you go to index 31.
22 MR. TRAVERSO: You'll see that that -- there's a short
23 transcript of that particular audio. I could work off my
24 computer, so --
25 10:29:19
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1 (Audio played)
2 MS. LAMOUREUX: It's not matching up. Nothing -- it's
3 not matching up in the transcript.
4 10:29:31
5 MR. TRAVERSO: 5(a), 5(b)?
6 MR. DOOLEY: I'm doing 5(a), 5(b).
7 MR. TRAVERSO: You're at 31?
8 MS. LAMOUREUX: Uh-huh (affirmative).
9 THE COURT: That's -- that doesn't track with what you
10 gave me.
11 MR. TRAVERSO: I apologize. It's at -- I apologize to
12 all the parties. It's the index at number 30.
13 THE COURT: All right, start again.
14 MR. DOOLEY: Still 5(a), 5(b)?
15 MR. TRAVERSO: Yes.
16 MS. LAMOUREUX: And it's still Exhibit 7?
17 MR. TRAVERSO: Index 30.
18 MS. LAMOUREUX: Okay.
19 10:30:32
20 (Audio played)
21 10:34:53
22 MR. TRAVERSO: Okay, thank you.
23 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
24 Q Do you recall giving him multiple instructions that day?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q And discussing to stay away from Bill Fulton?
2 A I think I was just about to get into that in depth --
3 Q Okay.
4 A -- on that audio.
5 Q Okay. But do you remember what you said about that, about
6 Mr. Fulton?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. Now, the convention occurred down there, and at
9 some point did you hear back from Mr. Olson or Mr. Vernon?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay. Who did you hear back from?
12 A J.R. Olson.
13 Q Okay. And do you remember when that was?
14 A Yeah, it was the -- it was the day after they got back, or
15 might have been the day the -- the -- the day they got back.
16 It was -- it was Super Bowl Sunday, which I think was February
17 6th.
18 Q Okay. And before you had that meeting on February 6th,
19 what happened -- was there a conference call during the militia
20 conference that you had with Lonnie or J.R.?
21 A Yeah. They called me a few times while they were down
22 there.
23 Q Oh, okay. All right. Well, on February --
24 A And -- and I called them.
25 Q Okay. On February 6th, who came to you -- did someone
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1 meet with you?
2 A Yeah. J.R.
3 Q Where?
4 A He came to the friend's house where we were at the Super
5 Bowl party.
6 Q Okay. What was the reason for him being there?
7 A To give me the report of -- of what went on down there,
8 report back.
9 Q Okay. What, if anything, did he say about it?
12 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
13 Q What, if anything, did you talk to him about?
14 A Well, I asked him what went on and to give me a full
15 report, which he did. And it was my understanding after
16 receiving his full report that Bill Fulton was rekindling this,
17 "It's time to start a war" --
18 Q Okay.
19 A -- in a very specific way.
20 Q Okay. Did the words -- did you hear anything provocative
21 at all during that meeting?
22 A Which meeting are you talking about?
23 Q With Mr. Olson.
24 A Yes. I was -- I was very scared after that meeting.
25 Q Did the word -- did you -- excuse me. What, if anything,
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1 was your plan, if any, regarding a 2-4-1?
2 A That was the first time that I had heard that. There was
3 a few things that happened at that -- at that meeting with
4 regard to that. Do you want me to --
5 Q Yeah. Just --
6 A -- tell you --
7 Q What --
8 A -- what I -- what -- what was in my mind when I came
9 away --
10 Q Yes.
11 A -- from that meeting?
12 Q Yes.
13 A It was my understanding that Bill Fulton wanted to kick
14 off a fight and use my court date that was coming up --
15 actually, it was a trial date for this -- for the B
16 misdemeanor --
17 Q Which we'll talk about in a minute.
18 A Yep. On --
19 Q Okay.
20 A -- the 24th.
21 Q Okay.
22 A So just about a week out. Use that as a -- a catalyst and
23 a reason to kick off the fight. It was my impression that J.R.
24 Olson had in fact talked with Bill down there against my
25 advice, and not only talked with Bill, but been converted to
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1 his way of thinking, and that gave me concern. And it was my
2 understanding that the -- there had been some ultimatums with
3 regard to me made down there that were relayed to me, and that
4 there needed to be a 2-4-1 plan, and my response to that was
5 that that's not good, that nothing would come from that. And
6 we argued in circles for a very long time --
7 Q Okay.
8 A -- about that. And I finally stopped arguing with Mr.
9 Olson and said, "You're not going to take my word for it. You
10 come to this next command staff meeting, I'll put it on the
11 table, you'll see what everybody else has to say about it, and
12 you'll see that I am not the only one that feels this way."
13 Because he and I were in disagreement about whether or not APM
14 would support something like that.
15 Q Okay.
16 A I assured him that --
17 Q Okay.
18 A -- that we would not.
19 Q All right.
20 A And we -- we could not --
21 Q Had the militia --
22 A I --
23 Q -- ever texted, emailed, or discussed 2-4-1 other than
24 that interaction you had on 2/6, on February 6th -- had the
25 militia ever communicated to anyone about a 2-4-1 plan?
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1 A No. 2/6 was the first time that I had ever heard of that.
2 Q Was there a poster of some sort --
3 A Yes.
4 Q -- that you had designated as something to kill judges
5 with or go after certain public officials with?
6 A No. No.
7 Q Okay. Could you please describe for us what this poster
8 was?
9 A We -- once I -- it was a -- it was a political satire with
10 the Disney Robin Hood characters. And there was a Wanted
11 poster, reward poster for me as Robin Hood, the Fox. And Burke
12 Barrick as the Honorable Sheriff of Nottingham and the
13 prosecutor as the Snake, Hiss, and the Judge as Prince John.
14 Q Okay.
15 A It was a -- political cartoons.
16 Q Okay.
17 A But that came much later. That was not anything to do
18 with -- with the 6th. That was much -- much later.
19 MR. TRAVERSO: Have you guys seen Coleman Barney's
20 Exhibit 5? You have any objections to it?
21 MS. LAMOUREUX: Yes, we do.
22 MR. TRAVERSO: Oh, okay. I'll let Coleman Barney deal
23 with that. All right.
24 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
25 Q All right. So there was no attack with this -- there was
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1 no -- who put these post -- where did these posters go? Where
2 did you send those posters? Schaeffer, pay attention. Where
3 did you --
4 A Oh --
5 Q -- put the posters?
6 A Oh, we were going to put them up just around town for a
7 joke. But we never got around to it.
8 Q Oh, okay. All right. Now let's talk about the -- you
9 were just touching briefly on the misdemeanor case. What
10 misdemeanor case are you referring to?
11 A The weapons --
12 Q Miscon --
13 A -- misconduct --
14 Q Okay.
15 A -- failure -- not -- not informing the -- allegedly not
16 informing the police officer that I had a -- a pistol
17 immediately upon --
18 Q Okay.
19 A -- contact.
20 Q In -- can you explain, if you will, how that happened, how
21 you got charged?
22 A Well, I was at a Liberty Bell call and I was standing
23 outside this house, listening to what was being said, and I was
24 just writing with a notepad. And somebody came up behind me
25 and grabbed my notepad. And then I -- I didn't know who it
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1 was, and I looked down and saw the trooper stripey pants or --
2 actually, it was Fairbanks Police. But I saw it -- I saw that
3 it was his, you know, bottom part of his uniform. And I said,
4 "Hey, what -- what's go -- going on?" And -- and he he had his
5 hands on me. And I said, "I have a -- a .380 in my pocket."
6 You know, I did say that. And then he said, "Okay, do" -- or
7 he didn't freak out or anything like that. But he took my
8 notepad and I never got that back. And then he put me in
9 handcuffs. And I said, "Am I -- am I under arrest?" And he
10 said, "Yes." I said, "Well, what for?" And he said, "I don't
11 know. I got to go look up some laws."
12 Q Oh, okay.
13 A And then I --
14 Q Eventually, though, you did get charged?
15 A Yeah. Yeah, I got --
16 Q Okay.
17 A -- I got charged with weapons misconduct in the fifth
18 degree --
19 Q Okay.
20 A -- which is a B -- B misdemeanor and --
21 Q Okay.
22 A -- I just --
23 Q Now, did you, with regard to this case, use that as a
24 vehicle for some effort on your part?
25 A Yeah.
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3 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
4 Q Okay, what was -- when you -- did you hire an attorney
5 with regard to your misdemeanor?
6 A No, it wasn't a serious enough charge to warrant hiring an
7 attorney, and we wanted to use that -- that case as a platform
8 and a -- a venue and an opportunity and a soapbox to raise from
9 legal questions, you know, in a court that we'd been dying to
10 raise.
11 Q Okay.
12 A Ask some questions we were wanting to ask.
13 Q Okay. Was this regarding firearms possession and things
14 of that nature?
15 A No, it didn't really have anything to do with -- with --
16 Q Okay.
17 A -- firearms.
18 Q Okay. What was the nature of your challenge with regard
19 to that?
20 A We wanted to make jurisdictional challenges to the Alaska
21 Court system and hash out the difference in a common-law
22 jurisdiction or equity jurisdiction or -- or admiralty or -- or
23 statutory -- you know, hash these all out and --
24 Q Okay. Stop right there. Let's take one thing at a time
25 here.
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1 A Okay.
2 Q What is the common law that you keep referring to?
3 A That was the form of law and the theory of law that was
4 adopted by the founding fathers.
5 Q Okay. And was there -- did -- as part of your
6 participation with some of the movements, the organizations
7 that you were -- did -- was there something called a common-law
8 court?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. What was that about?
11 A That was an attempt to recreate as close as we could a
12 court as the founding fathers had them set up in the late
13 1700s.
14 Q Okay.
15 A Hands-on history.
16 Q All right. Now, where would you conduct these common-law
17 court proceedings?
18 A Denny's.
19 Q Okay. All right. What kind of documentation did you file
20 regarding your misconduct involving weapons?
21 A Oh, man. Tons.
23 A We filed all kinds of requests for information and denials
24 of jurisdiction, and that all -- that also is -- is a request
25 for information. Just because you're denying jurisdiction
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1 doesn't necessarily mean --
3 MR. TRAVERSO: Okay, just --
5 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
6 Q Just keep your answer limited.
7 A Oh.
8 Q Don't get into the theories of and such. And I just want
9 to know --
10 A Yeah, okay.
11 Q -- what kind of paperwork you filed. And you challenged
12 jurisdiction?
13 A Yep.
14 Q Okay. At some point did you -- who was the judge that was
15 assigned to your case?
16 A I think I had seven different ones. It went --
17 Q Do you remember the first?
18 A It went Kauvar, and then it went -- I think Paul Lyle, and
19 then Hammers, and then eventually it wound up with -- McConahy
20 was the -- was the judge that was the friendliest to what we
21 were doing, and I think it stayed on him. He -- he wound up
22 keeping that -- that case. He was the one we were going to
23 go -- get to go argue all these zany points in front of.
24 Q Do you remember going to a proceeding in front of Judge
25 Kauvar?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q And do you remember reading a document to her?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay. And do you remember saying something about --
7 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
8 Q What do you remember saying to the court at that time?
9 A Well, I remember making the jurisdictional challenges that
10 we wanted to make, because there was -- I remember that. I
11 remember a lot of us that wanted to unravel that and figure
12 that out. And then we -- there was also -- see, I was caught
13 in a rock and a hard --
14 Q Just kind of explain.
15 A Yeah. I made comments challenging that. And then I
16 expressed my fears over the people that thought that that was
17 not the way to go, that we should just shoot first, ask
18 questions later, just start a fight and being, you know,
19 belligerent, it -- you know, and starting violence was -- was
20 the answer. And I don't -- so I -- I'm saying, "Hey, there's
21 these guys out here like this, that think like this, and then
22 there's us, who wants to sort out our differences and talk.
23 And this is crazy, but we want to -- we want to sort out our
24 differences and talk."
25 Q Okay. Was there some -- did you use any words like "kill"
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1 or anything like that when you were talking to the judge?
2 A Yes. I said there are people -- I told Jane Kauvar --
3 that's the judge -- in open court, "There are people that would
4 rather kill you in your bed at night than argue with you in
5 your court during the day."
6 Q And was that a threat --
7 A No, the --
8 Q -- by you?
9 A -- that was Bill Fulton, the same guy that was going to
10 kill me if I didn't get on board with his plans to go kill
11 judges in the night in their bed.
12 Q Okay.
13 A The same guy I turned in.
14 Q After that particular proceeding in front of Judge Kauvar,
15 did you appear in front of -- oh, in front of Judge Hammers,
16 or --
17 A Yeah.
18 Q -- at a calendar call?
19 A Yeah, there was a calendar call.
20 Q Well, actually, let's step back to Judge Kauvar's hearing.
21 Did you have a security detail with you?
22 A If we did, it was dinky and informal.
23 Q Okay.
24 A We did not -- I don't -- I don't -- I don't think so.
25 Q Okay.
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1 A Oh, maybe. I don't know. I've been to so many, I get
2 them mixed up, you know.
3 Q Okay. When you went to --
4 A I -- I could be wrong there. I'd have to -- like --
5 because I know there was a security detail when we went to the
6 court, but I think that was -- I -- I can't remember.
7 Q Okay.
8 A Been there so many times. But I know we did at one.
9 Q Do you remember having a calendar call or a status hear --
10 I guess it was a calendar call, which is a status hearing, in
11 Fairbanks with Judge Hammers regarding your misconduct
12 involving weapons case?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And that was after you had the proceeding with Judge
15 Kauvar on that case?
18 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
19 Q Did you have a proceeding with Judge Hammer -- did you
20 have another judge in another case -- did you have another
21 proceeding involving the misconduct involving weapons case?
22 A Yes.
23 Q After the Judge Kauvar hearing?
24 A We had a proceeding with Judge Hammers. It was just a
25 calendar call, that -- nothing happens at a calendar call. And
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1 that was, yeah, after Jane Kauvar.
2 Q Okay. At that hearing --
3 A Judge -- Judge Jane Kauvar.
4 Q At that hearing with Judge Hammers, did you have a
5 security detail with you?
6 A That may have been the one.
7 Q Okay.
8 A May have, but I can't -- I can't say for sure. I'd have
9 to know when -- what the date was on that.
10 Q Okay. Do you remember if you had any interactions with
11 judge -- not judge -- Trooper Schoenberg?
12 A Yeah. After the -- after the calendar call --
13 Q Yes.
14 A -- we were talking with Tim, who -- who came here and
15 testified in his trooper uniform. We were talking to him
16 afterward, and he'd always been super-nice and would listen and
17 see what we had. And so, you know, we were talking to anybody
18 who'd listen. And talked to him for probably 15, 20 minutes.
19 Q Okay. What did you talk to him about?
20 A I think mainly that conversation centered around not
21 jurisdictional problems but structural problems with the Alaska
22 Court System as an entity.
23 Q Okay. And what problems are you speaking of or what
24 problems are you referring to with regard to Alaska Court
25 System?
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1 A Well, we researched them when we were looking into
2 jurisdictional stuff, and we found that they -- that the Alaska
3 Court System had a business license, Alaska business license,
4 and a Dun's report on Dun and Bradstreet, which is a -- a
5 commercial credit reporting agency that lists all their profit-
6 and-loss statements and stuff like that. And we suspected that
7 there was some white-collar financial crimes going on with --
8 with diverting bail money and things like that to -- from the
9 judiciary, which is the third branch of government, to the
10 Alaska Court System.
12 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
13 Q Just keep it very limited, okay.
14 A And that's what we were talking about.
15 Q All right. Now, after you had that proceeding with Judge
16 Hammers, you interacted with Trooper Schoenberg, right?
18 Q Was that right outside the courtroom, or where was that?
19 A Yeah, that was down in the lobby.
20 Q Okay. Did you threaten Trooper Schoenberg?
21 A No.
22 Q Did you make any statements about anything regarding
23 force?
24 A Yeah, I think I made the -- we were talking about
25 jurisdiction and the rule of force versus the rule of law, and
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1 giving reasons versus just bulldozing people. And we were
2 talking about how if you -- if the Alaska Court System
3 hadn't -- had -- wasn't willing to talk about where their
4 jurisdiction comes from, then they're just operating by force.
5 And then we'd got to talking about force versus force, and I
6 made the comment, referring to the people versus the
7 government, that "We've got you outmanned and outgunned, and we
8 could probably have everybody dead in -- in one night. But
9 what would -- what good would that do?"
10 Q Okay. Why did you say that?
11 A It was just a -- a communication technique. You -- you
12 say something that's kind of shocking and knocks people off
13 balance, and then you pull them out of their comfort zone into
14 a new sphere of -- of thought.
15 Q All right. And --
16 A Just kind of --
17 Q -- was --
18 A -- breaking the mold.
19 Q Were you angry with Trooper Schoenberg?
20 A No, I -- I like him. He's a good guy.
21 Q Yeah. Were -- was -- did it appear that Trooper
22 Schoenberg was angry with you?
23 A No. He laughed and agreed with me that we didn't need to
24 fight, and he gave me a hug.
25 Q Okay. Did you after that proceeding continue to have more
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1 court proceedings regarding your case?
2 A When was that one? Oh, I can't ask you questions. It
3 was -- there might -- I don't know if there was another one
4 between then and the one that was scheduled for February 14th.
5 I just can't remember. I can't remember.
6 Q You -- was there another judge assigned to your case?
7 A Hammers was just doing calendar call. I don't think he
8 was --
9 Q Okay. Oh, that's -- okay.
10 A -- assigned to the case. I think it --
11 Q Well --
12 A -- was still in McConahy's --
13 Q -- did you make an appearance --
14 A -- hands.
15 Q -- in court again at a later time?
16 A Yes. Yes, I did. In front of -- actually, I don't know
17 if that was an appearance. I just went down to see McConahy
18 and -- and court was coming up in a couple days. And I went
19 down to tell him that I -- I was -- I wasn't going to be -- I
20 was not -- I was going to be a no-show for trial.
21 Q Okay. Why were you going to be a no-show? Do you
22 understand that --
23 A Yes.
25 A Because that's a crime. Failure to appear is a crime.
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1 Q Why --
2 A I was going to be a no-show because I had been convinced
3 that Bill Fulton was going to slit my throat, like he almost
4 slit Les's throat, if I got in the way of his -- of this plan
5 that he was -- was pushing. And I -- I wanted to go down there
6 and raise questions and have -- ask a bunch of questions and
7 hopefully get some answers in court. I did not want to start
8 a -- a fight. And I was afraid that if -- if I got railroaded,
9 that if I got railroaded at court or that if I got arrested or
10 that if I kept being an obstruction to the violence, that I
11 would be killed so that he would get me out of the way. And I
12 had also been convinced and it had been relayed to me that if I
13 got arrested or railroaded, that they were going to do this
14 violent stuff with or without me.
15 Q Okay. You filed a lot of paperwork that apparently has
16 been provided in this case against the court system. Was that
17 in response to that misdemeanor or was it response to something
18 else?
19 A I filed a lot of paperwork related to everything. But,
20 yeah, in --
21 Q Okay.
22 A -- response to that misdemeanor.
23 Q Okay.
24 A That's what we were hoping -- hoping to be able to go over
25 on the 14th, if -- if that's what you're asking.
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1 Q Okay.
2 A February 14th.
3 Q Did it come to your -- do you remember if at some point
4 after you didn't show up to court, that there -- a warrant had
5 been issued?
6 A Yeah. I figured there would be a -- a bench warrant for
7 failure to appear, and that in fact did happen.
8 Q Okay. Were you arrested on the warrant?
9 A No.
10 Q Okay. Now, we're speaking about --
11 A Actually, that might be technically incorrect. I think
12 that that warrant might have been satisfied on the -- March
13 10th, when all of our houses got raided and stuff.
14 Q No, no.
15 A But it wasn't over that, it was --
16 Q Okay.
17 A I think that was incidental to all the big -- this big
18 stuff.
19 Q No, I -- I'm speaking of -- regarding your misdemeanor
20 case for not showing up. There was a warrant issued in that
21 case. You were never served with that warrant, correct?
22 A Nothing happened on that warrant until I was in jail on --
23 on this stuff.
24 Q All right. Were you -- where were you living at the time
25 that you were not showing up to court?
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1 A We --
2 Q Well, at least in the beginning.
3 A In the beginning?
4 Q Yes.
5 A Oh. Marti and I moved out of our house and were leaving
6 the country on the 13th, the day before. And we went out to
7 Karen and Lonnie's house in Salcha, about 40 miles out of town,
8 and were going to keep -- keep running from there.
9 Q Okay. Did you have any meetings when you were -- when
10 that warrant was issued to attack any employees, either federal
11 or state?
12 A What?
13 Q Did you have -- did you make up any plans to attack state
14 or federal employees with other militia members?
15 A No.
16 Q Okay.
17 A We -- that's what's -- well, you'll have to ask me --
18 Q Yeah.
19 A -- later --
20 Q Was the --
21 A -- or about the 12th.
22 Q -- misconduct involving weapons -- you said you were using
23 it as a vehicle. Was that a vehicle that you wanted to use to
24 start something with state employees or federal employees?
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2 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
3 Q Did you threaten anybody as a result of the misdemeanor
4 case?
5 A No.
6 Q Okay. Were there any militia meetings regarding your
7 misdemeanor case?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. Where were they?
10 A We had one on the 12th at Ken Thesing's bus. That's the
11 one I had scheduled on the 6th with J.R.
12 Q Okay. And what was the purpose of that meeting?
13 A To talk about what we were going to do and what we weren't
14 going to do with regard to that, with all these culminating
15 dynamics.
16 Q Okay. Did the subject of 2-4-1 come up?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Okay. And did everybody have a chance to speak their mind
19 about it?
20 A I made sure that everybody got heard --
21 Q Okay.
22 A -- on their views on 2-4-1.
23 Q Well, why did 2-4-1 get introduced into that meeting?
24 A Because if it's out there and it's a horrible idea, it
25 needs to be addressed.
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1 Q Okay.
2 A Not just ignored.
3 Q Okay. Did you bring up 2-4-1 at that meeting?
4 A Yep.
5 Q Okay. Why did you bring it up?
6 A Because I had been asked to.
7 Q Okay. By whom?
8 A J.R. Olson.
9 Q Okay. And what did you discuss at this meeting about 2-4-
10 1, specifically?
11 A Well, my position was that we needed to do a Gandhi, not a
12 Rambo. Ken -- well, I probably shouldn't talk about their
13 position. But my position was that we needed to do a Gandhi,
14 not a Rambo, and that it's -- it's bad to force people to
15 change by violence and it's good to convince people to change
16 by reason.
17 Q Okay. What did you ask the other members to do or tell
18 the other members in the militia to do at the end? What
19 word -- did you use a phrase or a description of what you --
20 A In --
21 Q -- wanted them to do?
22 A In -- in regard to 2-4-1 --
23 Q Yes.
24 A -- or -- yeah, in regard to 2-4-1, mine was -- my
25 alternative position was bluff, pray, and train.
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1 Q Okay.
2 A And don't risk showing up at court with Bill out there.
3 Q Now, during that meeting -- or at the conclusion, I guess,
4 at that meeting, was there some discussion about Twitter?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. Can you tell us what that was about?
7 A Well, if I had a warrant out for my arrest now and I was
8 going to be running, then I wanted to be able to get in touch
9 with them if I got -- if I got arrested, so they could come
10 bail me out.
11 Q Okay.
12 A Or just do more civil disobedience stuff. But I had no
13 plans to get arrested.
14 Q Okay. Was there a plan to -- if you were captured, to use
15 Twitter to inform everybody in the militia --
16 A No.
17 Q -- so that some action could be taken by the militia
18 against those who arrested you?
19 A No.
20 Q Okay. Was the phrase -- was 2-4-1 the only thing that was
21 discussed at that meeting?
22 A No. It was a long meeting.
23 Q Okay. All right. Was -- did you ever use "5-4-1"?
24 A No. No, that would -- that was suggested by someone else.
25 Q Okay. Who suggested that?
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1 A J.R. Olson.
2 Q This meeting occurred on February 12th at Ken Thesing's
3 bus?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. And who showed up to that meeting?
6 A Me, Coleman Barney, Ken Thesing, and J.R. Olson.
7 Q Okay. You said earlier that you were planning on leaving.
8 You were at Lonnie Vernon's residence?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. What -- did that change?
11 A Yes. The plan to leave?
12 Q Yes.
13 A No, that never changed. That --
14 Q Okay.
15 A -- was our sole objective.
16 Q Okay.
17 A My -- my -- when I say we, that's me and Marti --
18 Q Okay.
19 A -- and our children.
20 Q All right. On -- the meeting occurred on February 12th.
21 Correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q 2011?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Okay. And --
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1 A The meeting at Ken's bus.
2 Q Okay. And as of February 14th, where were you living?
3 A Karen and Lonnie's house.
4 Q Okay. And how long did you stay at Karen and Lonnie's
5 house?
6 A Just -- just a few days.
7 Q Okay. Did you have any contact with J.R. Olson?
8 A Yeah. He came out there the night of the 14th. So the
9 first day that I had the failure to appear and was on the run,
10 he -- he showed up out there.
11 Q And did he -- do you know what the purpose of him showing
12 up there was?
13 MS. LAMOUREUX: Calls for speculation.
14 MR. TRAVERSO: I'll rephrase the question.
15 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
16 Q What did you talk to Mr. Olson about?
17 A Well, I had sent him and Coleman down to see what happened
18 at -- at court and give me a report. So he gave me a -- a sum-
19 up of what happened. He did not know that -- nobody knew that
20 I was going to -- that we were out at the -- out at the
21 Vernons', so just happenstance he was out there. And I made it
22 clear that I -- we -- we were fleeing the country.
23 Q Okay.
24 A And the -- we discussed, "Well, you should make a plan, or
25 we should hide you out in a cabin, or we should get you all
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1 armed up for a shootout." And so I was addressing --
2 addressing those.
3 Q Okay. Well, what was the game plan?
4 A I kept coming back to, don't do a Rambo, do a Gandhi.
5 Q Okay.
6 A I am not going to do a shootout. And I continued to argue
7 that -- you know, there was -- there was talk, "Well, should
8 you just go down there and try to work this out and get this
9 misdemeanor resolved?" But my position that I kept conveying
10 was that, I can't. I have a -- I have a -- a moral obligation
11 to not risk getting arrested or going down there to court,
12 because I know that that's going to set Bill Fulton off and
13 he's going to hurt people. And I've already turned him in and
14 the cops aren't taking me serious on turning in Bill Fulton.
15 And if I just said, well, that's on him, and went down there
16 and got railroaded, knowing that's going to set him off, then
17 I'm acting with reckless disregard for human life. Even though
18 I disagree with those people in their -- my intellectual
19 points, I can't -- I can't be that flippant with their well-
20 being --
21 Q Okay.
22 A -- if I'm the trigger point.
23 Q All right. How long did you stay at Mr. Vernon's
24 residence?
25 A Just a few days.
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1 Q Okay.
2 A Till the 19th.
3 Q Till the 19th, okay. And during that seven-day stretch --
4 I guess five-day stretch, excuse me -- did you have some sort
5 of fallout with Mr. Vernon?
6 A No. We -- not during that five-day stretch.
7 Q Okay.
8 A Lonnie blew up at me and was pretty -- pretty mad at me on
9 the 19th at a meeting at Coleman's house, early morning of --
10 of the 19th.
11 Q Okay. As a result of that blowup, what did you do?
12 A I believe that --
13 Q Oh.
14 A -- that blowup was what was dictating our -- our plans or
15 our conduct. So, I mean --
16 Q Okay.
17 A -- as a result of that -- him blowing up at me, I gave him
18 a hug and told him I love him and it's okay.
19 Q Okay.
20 A That was the result of the -- the blowup, but we -- we did
21 some other things. But it was not any result of the blowup.
22 Q Okay. Did you stay at the Vernon residence?
23 A We moved to the Barney residence.
24 Q Okay. And when did you do that?
25 A On the 19th.
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1 Q Okay. The same day that the argument ensued --
2 A Yes.
3 Q -- between you and Mr. Vernon?
4 A Not an argument.
5 Q Okay. Just a --
6 A I did not -- I didn't argue with --
7 Q Okay.
8 A -- Lonnie. He was a -- just venting.
9 Q Venting, okay. On February 19th, you stayed at Mr.
10 Barney's residence. How long have you known Coleman Barney?
11 A A few years.
12 Q Okay. And is --
13 A Probably 2008 or 2009.
14 Q Is Coleman also involved in the Peacemakers Militia?
15 A Yes. He's a major and he is on the command staff. And
16 they -- a key leader.
17 Q Okay. At this time when you were, you know, involved with
18 your court proceedings and you were staying at the Barney
19 residence, was there anything else going on with Liberty Bell
20 or Second Amendment Task Force?
21 A No.
22 Q Okay.
23 A I was -- I had to just absolutely not do anything with
24 that, or --
25 Q Okay.
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1 A -- or any of that. And that was what -- that's what the
2 meeting on the 9 -- on the 19th wound up being about.
3 Q Okay.
4 A It was kind of a redo of the -- of the 12th, but a little
5 more urgent.
6 Q Okay. When you were at Barney's residence, did you have
7 any interactions with -- or contact with J.R. Olson?
8 A Yeah. He was there at that -- that first meeting on the
9 19th. And what was your question? Was it after that, or was
10 it on -- were you asking about interactions on the 19th?
11 Q On the 19th, yeah.
12 A On the 19th.
13 Q Yeah. Did he show up at some point?
14 A Yeah. We all showed up early in the morning. And --
15 Q For what?
16 A For this meeting that supposedly I had called. But I -- I
17 didn't call it.
18 Q Who called the meeting?
19 A I found out after the fact that J.R. had called it and --
20 Q Okay.
21 A -- got everybody to -- to come there.
22 Q Okay. And who is everybody?
23 A There was me; Ken Thesing, who's also a major and on the
24 command staff; Coleman Barney; and then Karen and Lonnie and
25 J.R. They're not on the command staff, but they were there.
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1 Q Did J.R. talk to you at that meeting?
2 A Yep.
3 Q And did you give any instructions to J.R.?
4 A I'm sure I did.
5 Q Okay.
6 A Oh, yes, I gave him some -- some instructions.
7 Q Okay. Do you remember what you said to him?
8 A This was a long meeting. I -- I don't know if you and I
9 are thinking of the same thing, but I -- I told him that --
10 because he was still pushing for this 2-4-1 thing, and we can't
11 live like this, and we've all got to just -- you know, it's
12 time to start providing -- he was just spouting Bill-isms. And
13 I kept saying no, we -- we can't do that, and that I need to
14 get out of the country and -- and get out of here with my
15 family, and I can't risk precipitating violence. If these guys
16 are making me the trigger point and the catalyst and if you did
17 this 2-4-1 stuff, no fruit would come from it.
18 Q Okay. That was approximately seven days after the
19 February 12th meeting, right?
20 A Yep.
21 Q Now, did you give any instructions to J.R. Olson on the
22 14th, which is two days in between the two different points?
23 A Yeah. I asked him to take some stuff back to my house, a
24 checkbook and some cash and my phone -- and give some things to
25 my friend, Joe Nichols, who I was going to -- I was going to
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1 give him my house.
3 A We were just -- we were just abandoning everything --
4 everything we owned.
5 Q Okay. What kind of things were you trying to get taken
6 care of at your home? What kind of --
7 A Well --
8 Q -- things that you asked J.R. to take care of?
9 A I was -- I asked J.R. to pay the bills and get, you know,
10 all of these bills taken care of. And I had a -- a garbage
11 truck that was pretty valuable that I want -- that I wanted him
12 to see if it was ready to sell, all up to snuff. And I wanted
13 him to pick up a -- a few personal items from the house and
14 bring them out to us, some stuff that -- that we wanted to take
15 with us when we left. I wanted him to get in touch with --
16 actually, it might have been somebody else I wanted to get in
17 touch with, Les Zerbe, about selling the house and paying off
18 the bills and sending me the remainder of the money.
19 Q Okay.
20 A It might have actually -- it mght have been Coleman that I
21 was -- that was looking at doing that. But just settling my --
22 I mean, basically when I got that choice of, if I show up,
23 these guys are going to do violence, I had to drop off the
24 planet and it was like I died. So I needed to settle my
25 estate. And send me the dif -- send me my equity --
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1 Q Okay.
2 A -- to start over in some other country.
3 Q What happened on -- on February 19th, you stayed there.
4 Did you have some discussion with somebody about trying to get
5 out of town on a truck, a trailer truck?
6 A Yeah. Marti and I were going to either go through Canada
7 or catch the ferry or catch an air taxi so we didn't get
8 arrested. That was our main thing.
9 Q Okay.
10 A And J.R. Olson offered a -- a -- that he had a friend who
11 was a -- a truck driver that could drive us through the border,
12 and there wouldn't be any danger of us -- of -- of me getting
13 arrested. He could sneak -- sneak us into Canada, and we
14 figured once we were in Canada we could, you know, be pretty
15 mobile from there. And so he -- he arranged that, and I -- I
16 liked -- I liked that idea.
17 Q At some point did you -- what did you do about the stuff
18 in the -- the items that were in the shed?
19 A Well, the -- the --
20 Q In your property in North Pole?
21 A At -- at Bradway?
22 Q Yes.
23 A Well, I went and cleaned that out. The trucker wasn't
24 going to -- according to -- there was no trucker. But -- to
25 find out. But J.R. said the trucker -- or I was led to
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1 believe -- I'm sorry. I was led to believe that the trucker
2 was going to be there day after tomorrow, or, like, just in a
3 few days or three days. And so I went around and gathered up
4 anything that I would want to take out with me, any valuable
5 stuff, and the stuff in the shed was among those things I
6 gathered up to take out with me.
7 Q Okay.
8 A Or at least not just leaving lying in the shed.
9 Q Did you take eight live grenades from the shed?
10 A No. There's never been eight live -- that's --
11 Q Okay.
12 A No, there's -- those don't exist.
13 Q Okay. When you moved your stuff, where did you move it
14 to? The items from the shed.
15 A From the shed?
16 Q Yes.
17 A To Coleman's house. We put them in the -- in the white
18 trailer, his work trailer.
19 Q Okay. What else did you have in the trailer?
20 A We snuck up to our house, I think on, like -- I don't
21 know, the 21st, 22nd, a couple of days after the 19th, once we
22 found out about this trucker going to haul us out. We -- Marti
23 and I went up to the house and we got, you know, just our --
24 our precious things, you know -- we got pictures of our kids
25 and we got Marti's wedding dress. And we couldn't really take
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1 anything. But we got the things that were -- that had memories
2 attached to them.
3 Q Okay.
4 A And I got -- I got my tools too, so I could make a living.
5 I got all my tree-climbing gear and my chainsaws, so -- because
6 I can go anywhere in the world and be an arborist and, you
7 know, make a living.
8 Q Okay. Did a discussion -- was there any discussion with
9 J.R. about a list?
10 A Oh, yeah. On several occasions. Many, many, many
11 occasions. He loved the list. We -- the first time the --
12 MS. LAMOUREUX: Your Honor, the government would
13 restrict, request an instruction that the witness not provide
14 so much conjecture with his answers.
15 THE COURT: Well, let's go by question and answer here.
16 So what's the question to the witness?
17 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
18 Q What -- did you have any discussions with J.R. Olson about
19 a list?
20 A Yeah. The -- a -- a list first came up on the February
21 12th meeting. Or maybe not, I don't know. February 12th, that
22 my -- when did that come up. I was talking about going to
23 these -- law enforcement and reaching out to them and trying to
24 build relationships with them that would be a deterrent for
25 them doing, you know, bad things to people --
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2 A -- to us. And I mentioned that Mike Anderson had a list
3 with everybody on it.
4 Q What do you mean --
5 A And when I -- when I say everybody, I mean, like,
6 everybody. Like, everybody -- probably everybody in this room.
7 Q Okay. What is -- how is it that Michael Anderson would
8 have such a thing? I mean, why would he have such a thing?
9 Did you instruct him to concoct, to create this thing?
10 A No. He told me about how you can look up anybody based
11 off the Department of Natural Resources and, like, cross-
12 referencing with property --
15 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
16 Q Okay. What was your understanding of what this list was
17 about or this composite thing? What -- was that something that
18 you kept and used every time you had a chance?
19 A Oh, no.
20 Q Okay.
21 A My understanding was that it was a Department of Natural
22 Resources database. It cross-referenced with property tax --
23 (indiscernible) it cross-referenced a bunch of -- of public
24 information to get anybody's either contact information or
25 address and -- and things like that.
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1 Q Okay.
2 A He -- he knew how to look people up.
3 Q Okay.
4 A But I -- it was -- it was not --
6 beyond --
7 MR. TRAVERSO: Well, let's just --
9 MR. TRAVERSO: That's fine.
10 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
11 Q Did you give instructions at some point to Mr. Olson about
12 where somebody lived and -- who was in law enforcement?
13 A Yeah. On the 12th we talked about if I got arrested, we
14 needed to go and reach out to these same guys like we did when
15 we were having problems with Seth. And I gave him Ron Wall and
16 Burke Barrick's name and -- and general location where they
17 lived, but I didn't -- by that time I had lost their address.
18 Q Okay. Back to the shed again, or to -- actually, you're
19 at Coleman's residence now. The stuff -- you had --
21 Q -- moved the items from the shed over there. Did you
22 own -- did you have Tannerite?
23 A Yeah, I had a -- a -- a case of Tannerite.
24 Q J-B Weld?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q Where did you keep those items?
2 A Well, I'm not sure where the Tannerite came from. It was
3 probably in the closet where I keep all my shooting supplies.
4 And the J-B Weld was in my red Craftsman toolbox in the drawer
5 where I keep owner's manuals and tape and glue.
6 Q Well, where was the red Craftsman?
7 A That was at my house.
8 Q Now --
9 A And then I moved it to the -- I got it and moved it to the
10 white trailer.
11 Q Okay.
12 A Oh, that's right. We took the white trailer to the
13 house --
14 Q Okay.
15 A -- to pick up all the stuff, and loaded it into -- that
16 what we did.
17 Q All right.
18 A To my house, from Coleman's to my house and loaded
19 everything in there.
20 Q The J-B Weld was in the drawer of that toolbox?
21 A Yes.
24 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
25 Q Okay. Where was the J-B Beld [sic]?
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1 A It was in the --
2 Q Again, I'm sorry, I didn't quite hear your answer before.
3 A Oh, I'm -- I'm sorry. Yeah, the -- I'll repeat my answer.
4 The -- the J-B Weld was in my red Craftsman toolbox --
5 Q Okay.
6 A -- in one of the big drawers on the bottom --
7 Q Okay.
8 A -- where I keep the owner's manuals, tape, and glue.
9 Q Okay. Do you have -- you own launchers?
10 A Yeah.
11 Q Why do you own launchers? What did you use them for?
12 A For launching stuff.
13 Q Give us a context.
14 A The 37-millimeter launchers can launch gas and pepper
15 spray, which is just an irritant. They can also shoot the
16 hornet's nests, which we've heard about here. And they can
17 also shoot flares. And I've actually never shot one, but I was
18 going to -- one thing I wanted to see if I could make it work
19 for was in my arborist business, making a line thrower that
20 would shoot a spool of Spectra line up -- up over a tree, so
21 you can pull your big rope up in there. But that wasn't --
22 that wasn't, like, the only reason that we had those, in fact,
23 probably not even the main reason. But that was something I
24 was going to see if I could get them to -- get it to work for
25 that, if that --
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1 Q Okay.
2 A -- save a lot of time.
3 Q Do you -- did you own a sailboat?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Did you use a launcher with regard to your sailboat?
6 A Yeah, it's a -- it would be a very good item for -- on a
7 sailboat. But you can't fly with the canisters, so --
8 Q Okay.
9 A To get them down there.
10 Q When you were talking about launchers, was there some sort
11 of social event that you were going to use the launcher for,
12 some big event through some news media organization?
13 A Actually, it was to the --
14 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection. These questions --
15 MR. TRAVERSO: I'll rephrase that.
16 MS. LAMOUREUX: -- are all leading.
17 MR. TRAVERSO: I'll rephrase it.
18 THE COURT: Well, they certainly are.
19 MR. TRAVERSO: Can you --
20 THE COURT: Mr. Traverso, I've --
21 MR. TRAVERSO: All right, I'll rephrase it.
22 THE COURT: -- told you about this.
23 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
24 Q What -- did you have -- was there some event that the
25 launcher was going to be used for, social event?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. What was it for?
3 A We were going to have a grenade golf night at the
4 Fairbanks Country Club. And we had arranged that with them for
5 us to go out and do the course, but instead of hitting balls we
6 were going to be shooting chalk rounds or something.
7 Q Okay. Did that happen?
8 A No, we never got around -- got around to that either.
9 Q Oh, okay. Did you go -- ever -- okay, you mentioned that
10 you had some contact with Michael Anderson. Did -- at some
11 point did you and J.R. Olson go to Michael Anderson's house?
12 A Yes.
13 Q For what purpose?
14 A Well, I just wanted to see him because I was leaving.
15 It's kind of funny how that -- how that happened and the
16 situation that led up to that.
17 Q Okay.
18 A I didn't know we were going to go there till it was too
19 late.
22 THE COURT: Wait for his question.
23 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
24 Q Just keep it to the -- until the next question, okay?
25 What was your understanding of why you were -- why did you go
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1 there?
2 A We had gone over to try to go to Rob Carr's gun shop to
3 get the C93.
4 Q Discuss that with us. What was the -- what -- why did you
5 have to go there?
6 A Because I'd given that C90 -- I traded that C93 to J.R.
7 Olson.
8 Q Okay.
9 A So we went there to -- to look for that. Rob Carr wasn't
10 there. And when we drove out of there, J.R. Olson just headed
11 down the highway --
12 Q Okay.
13 A -- and said, "Hey, I thought we'd go out and see Mike
14 Anderson."
15 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection. Move to strike. Hearsay.
16 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
17 Q Okay. Just keep your answers to --
18 A Okay.
19 Q -- limited to -- you know --
20 THE COURT: No, the motion to strike is denied.
21 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
22 Q All right. Did you ultimately make it to Michael
23 Anderson's residence?
24 A Yeah. We drove all the way out there.
25 Q Okay. And did you visit with him?
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1 A No. He wasn't home.
2 Q Okay. When you -- were -- finally can shift gears a
3 little bit and go back in time a little bit. Do you remember
4 ever going to ATF about your STEN -- about -- well, excuse me.
5 Did you ever go to -- visit ATF at the Federal Courthouse?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q Why did you go there?
8 A Well, we went down there, again, just in keeping with our
9 style, which is go talk to people, we -- I think we took that
10 declaration that we read here. We took that down and we were
11 passing that out and shaking hands and meeting people. And we
12 were also talking about federal firearms restrictions and had
13 some questions about that.
14 Q Okay. And was there any discussion regarding firearms
15 that you had?
16 A Yes. I asked him how -- how thorough of an answer do you
17 want?
18 Q Well, just keep it to what you understood from the meeting
19 and not what someone else said.
20 A Yeah. Yeah, I asked him about the --
22 complete hearsay.
23 THE COURT: Sounds like it's calling for hearsay
24 ultimately.
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1 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
2 Q What was your understanding about whether -- can you --
3 did you understand that you could make -- did you understand
4 anything about homemade weapons, whether you could have them or
5 have to register? Do you know anything about that?
6 A My understanding, after talking to the ATF, was that one
7 of the elements that has to be fulfilled for there to be
8 federal regulation is it has -- of -- of a firearm is that it
9 has to be traveling in interstate commerce or have --
10 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection, Your Honor. This is not a
11 defense. Government briefed this in its trial brief.
12 MR. TRAVERSO: What?
13 (Whispered conversation)
14 MR. TRAVERSO: Is that an objection?
15 MS. LAMOUREUX: It's an objection. Yes.
16 MR. TRAVERSO: Goes to mens rea, Your Honor.
17 MS. LAMOUREUX: There is no --
18 MR. TRAVERSO: Well, not mens rea, but it --
19 MS. LAMOUREUX: We can maybe talk --
20 MR. TRAVERSO: -- goes to --
21 MS. LAMOUREUX: -- about this outside --
22 MR. TRAVERSO: It goes --
23 MS. LAMOUREUX: -- the presence of the jury.
24 THE COURT: Yeah, probably so. Let's go into something
25 else.
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2 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
3 Q When you left ATF -- well, excuse me, I'm sorry. Not when
4 you left ATF, but -- about how many offices do you think you
5 visited that -- in the course of this -- having this
6 declaration signed?
7 A Well, I think we went to both senators and our congressman
8 and the FBI and the ATF, and pretty much -- we went to the --
9 the U.S. Attorney's Office, talked to every -- every office we
10 could find.
11 Q Okay. Okay. If I could have a moment.
12 THE CLERK: Microphone, please.
13 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
14 Q At some point was your phone -- your phone was seized by
15 the government. Remember?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay. And on your phone there were -- could you tell --
18 describe for us some of the things that you put on your iPhone?
19 A Oh, everything. There was a lot of stuff on my iPhone.
20 All of --
21 Q Okay.
22 A -- my contacts, a lot of stuff in my -- in my notes.
23 Songs that we'd -- we'd written, poetry, contact lists, to-do
24 lists. It -- pretty -- pretty thorough drafts of letters that
25 I'd sent to people. Yeah, everything.
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1 Q Okay.
2 A Text messages, pictures. Everything you'd have on an
3 iPhone.
5 Q You had a -- there were some exported notes from your
6 iPhone, and if I could approach the witness, Your Honor?
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 MR. TRAVERSO: Thank you. Handing you --
9 THE CLERK: You need to pick up the lapel mic. Thank
10 you.
11 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
12 Q Looking at page 8 there, what does that describe?
13 MS. LAMOUREUX: And the record probably should reflect
14 you're looking at Exhibit 794
15 MR. TRAVERSO: 794, okay.
16 MS. LAMOUREUX: And I think it's actually page 9 of the
17 exhibit.
18 MR. TRAVERSO: No, I have --
19 MS. LAMOUREUX: Even thought it's page 8 on that --
20 MR. TRAVERSO: It's page 8 on this.
21 MS. LAMOUREUX: Right. But it's still page 9 of the
22 exhibit.
24 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
25 Q On page 9 of the government's exhibit but page 8 of
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1 this -- the papers that you have in front of you, do you
2 remember what you had written on that day?
3 A Yeah, most of it. Yes --
4 Q Okay.
5 A -- these are ideas, things we were going to do, stuff that
6 either different people are doing or that we were all doing
7 with regard to the militia or kind of the act -- the movement.
8 Q Would you kind of read some of those things, please?
9 A Yeah. Starts out, it says, "Ideas to do. APM pins." We
10 were going to make little, like, lapel pins for Alaska
11 Peacemakers; people could wear those. "Golden Days," that was
12 the Golden Days parade up in Fairbanks. We were going to --
13 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection, Your Honor. Was the
14 question to explain every single item on the list?
15 THE COURT: I don't think so.
16 MR. TRAVERSO: Okay. Could you --
17 THE COURT: Was asked to read it.
18 THE WITNESS: I'll --
19 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
20 Q -- explain what -- there was -- you had made all these
21 entries on what day? Do you remember?
22 A Looks like it was over a long period of time.
23 Q Okay. And it was regarding APM activities?
24 A Well, not just APM, but -- yeah, APM and the whole
25 movement as a whole.
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1 Q Okay. There's a -- I believe a -- some words called "Hit
2 List" on there. Right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay. What's that about?
5 A That references on all these other pages all the songs on
6 there.
7 Q Okay.
8 A We were going to record an album of --
9 Q Okay.
10 A -- freedom songs and call it Hit List.
11 Q Okay. What were militia tax bills?
12 A Oh, that was going to be -- we were going to try to come
13 up with a budget of what we needed for training events and --
14 and stuff like that and send that to -- to all of our members.
15 But the other thing that we were going to -- that we were going
16 to do is we were going to send out a mass mailing of post --
18 MR. TRAVERSO: Okay, just keep --
19 MS. LAMOUREUX: Is this tax bills?
20 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
21 Q Just keep it right -- refer --
22 A Okay.
23 Q -- your answer reference to the question, okay?
24 A That is referencing that.
25 Q Okay. All right. Well --
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1 A Because --
2 THE COURT: What's the question of the witness now?
3 MR. TRAVERSO: I'm going to move on, Your Honor.
4 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
5 Q As to -- well, I'll rephrase it. The militia tax bill,
6 tell -- if you can explain that succinctly.
7 A We were going to send out postcards to --
8 Q Postcards.
9 A -- everybody in Fairbanks, asking for donations --
10 Q Okay.
11 A -- to the militia.
12 Q All right. And what about -- there's a entry here called
13 "Equinox Station." What's that?
14 A The -- the Equinox is a marathon --
15 Q Right.
16 A -- in Fairbanks and --
18 A -- we did first-aid stations and -- and water stations out
19 on the really hard parts of that marathon, the militia did.
20 Q There's also an entry of "Trooper Protests." What's that?
21 A We were going to have a -- like a sign wave, trooper
22 protest, down by the trooper office, protesting some of their
23 practices.
24 Q Okay. And what's "Pirate Radio"?
25 A We -- well, it wouldn't actually be pirate -- any
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1 illegal -- but that's what they -- what they call it. You can
2 have an FM transmitter, and if it's under a certain amount of
3 power it's not regulated. And we were going to set up a bunch
4 of these all around town and broadcast freedom type stuff,
5 just, you know, reading the federalist papers and -- and old,
6 you know, speeches from the founding fathers and educational
7 type stuff, just get it blasting on the airwaves in Fairbanks
8 all the time.
9 Q Okay. On March 1st, did you have an opportunity to go to
10 some cabins in Ester?
11 A Ye --
12 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection. These are leading
13 questions.
14 MR. TRAVERSO: Okay, I'll rephrase it.
15 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
16 Q At some point, did you go to Ester while you were living
17 at the Coleman Barney residence?
18 A Yes. We --
19 Q What was the purpose of going out there?
20 A We went to Ester to work on some cabins that Coleman owned
21 that were under construction. He was just finishing them up.
22 Q Okay. And were you -- what time did you guys go out
23 there?
24 A Mid-day.
25 Q Okay. Was it just you and Coleman?
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1 A Yeah.
2 Q Okay. Did anybody later on join you there?
3 A Yeah, J.R. Olson showed up.
4 Q Okay. And did you talk to J.R. Olson?
6 Q About what?
7 A About -- about he -- how he could get grenades.
8 Q Fragmentation grenades?
9 A We -- I don't know if he was explicit, but he -- they
10 were -- they were -- I think they were real grenades.
11 Q Okay.
12 A At least that was my impression.
13 Q Okay.
14 A I don't know that he was explicit on that, but my
15 impression was that they were, like, honest-to-goodness, like
16 really-blow-up grenades.
17 Q Okay. Was there money discussed?
18 A Yeah. I thought that was pretty cool. I thought, oh,
19 wow, that's cool. And I asked how much they were. And he said
20 $100 apiece. And, ooh, that was a huge -- I -- I didn't --
21 that's pretty spendy for two seconds of fun, and --
22 Q Okay. What do you mean, two seconds of fun?
23 A Well, if it's fun to throw a -- dummy grenades with a
24 practice fuse, it'd probably be a lot more fun to throw a real
25 grenade. But at 100 bucks and without having any kind of
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1 training, it's something that I would be intrigued by but
2 not -- I'm not going to mess with that without some --
3 without --
4 Q Okay.
5 A -- with -- with no knowledge of how to do that safe.
6 Q All right. Did you arrange with Mr. Olson to acquire
7 these grenades?
8 A No. He said he was going to -- he was getting some from
9 him, like he was telling us, "Hey, I'm getting some for me and
10 you can get some -- some too." But he made the offer, but --
12 THE WITNESS: -- we didn't --
13 MS. LAMOUREUX: This is all hearsay --
15 MS. LAMOUREUX: -- what J.R. said.
16 THE COURT: Some of it is.
17 MR. TRAVERSO: In --
18 THE COURT: The objection's sustained.
19 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
20 Q In reference to the grenades, did you make an arrangement
21 to acquire them at some later date?
22 A No. I never --
23 Q Okay.
24 A -- made arrangements for me to have or require --
25 Q Okay.
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1 A -- or anybody else, for me --
2 Q Okay.
3 A I never made any arrangements for real --
4 Q Okay.
5 A -- grenades. And --
6 Q And --
7 A -- I wouldn't.
8 Q And did you see if -- did Coleman make any arrangements
9 with J.R. Olson about grenades?
10 A No.
11 Q Okay.
12 A I don't -- I don't even know if Coleman was there.
13 Q What were you working on at the cabin? What were you
14 doing?
15 A I think I was sanding trim.
16 Q Okay. Was --
17 A Maybe I was painting it.
18 Q Okay.
19 A Finish carpentry.
20 Q Okay. These were cabins that had not been completed or
21 they were being refurbished, or what?
24 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
25 Q What -- the cabins that you were at, why were you working
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1 in them?
2 A They were in the final stages of construction.
3 Q All right. Do you know someone by the name of Jimmy
4 Johnson?
5 A No.
6 Q Okay. Do you know someone by the name of Nanette Curtis?
7 A No. I -- she came here and -- and testified.
8 Q Okay.
9 A But I don't know her.
10 Q Did you -- do you remember any interaction with Ms.
11 Curtis?
12 A I don't know if I'm remembering this or if it's just the
13 power of suggestion. When -- because when she first got on the
14 stand, I was like, who is this lady? She --
16 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
17 Q Okay. Okay. Just can't get into --
18 A Okay.
19 Q -- a lot of the -- you just --
20 A Okay.
21 Q -- have to ask your -- just answer the question. Do you
22 know Nanette Curtis, and if you remember having any kind of
23 meeting with her.
24 A Well, that's -- that's what I'm saying. I don't know if
25 I'm remembering or if it's just the power of suggestion. She
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1 seemed -- because, like, I don't have any specific
2 recollection, but she seemed credible to me, so --
3 Q Okay.
4 A -- I guess that did happen.
5 Q Okay. Did you have a -- have her name -- did you want to
6 kill her or do something to her?
7 A No.
8 Q Did you give her name to somebody?
9 A No, I did not -- I didn't give her name to anybody, I
10 didn't want -- I didn't want to kill anybody, let -- let alone
11 a -- a --
15 MR. TRAVERSO: Just --
17 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
18 Q Just answer the question.
19 A Yeah. No.
20 Q Don't get into extra stuff --
21 A Yeah.
22 Q -- okay?
23 A Okay, I'm trying.
24 Q Now, when you were living at Coleman's residence, how many
25 times did you talk to J.R. Olson, if you can recall, about the
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1 trucker?
2 A Oh. Every time I saw him.
3 Q Okay.
4 A I would say I talked to him about that trucker probably --
5 MS. LAMOUREUX: I think it's been answered.
6 THE WITNESS: -- 25 times.
8 THE COURT: The answer may stand.
9 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
10 Q You guys had some sort of a nickname for this driver,
11 right?
12 A Yeah. Han Solo.
13 Q What -- Han Solo, okay. Did you have a departure date set
14 in mind?
15 A Many, many times.
16 Q Okay. What were you waiting for?
17 A For the trucker to show up.
18 Q Okay.
19 A He was supposed to be there in three days, and --
20 Q Okay.
21 A -- at first.
22 Q Okay. And did that change again?
23 A Yeah. There was a string of excuses. He had to go take
24 another load, so it's going to be another two days. And
25 then --
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1 Q Okay.
2 A -- he had mechanical problems, so it's going to be, you
3 know, another couple days. And --
4 Q Okay.
5 A -- now he's behind -- overlogged on his hours, so it's
6 going to be more -- you know, three days more. That put him
7 behind schedule, so now he's got to go up to the North Slope.
8 Q Okay.
9 A It dragged on probably a dozen excuses like that, that
10 kept him always a day or two out.
11 Q Okay.
12 A And then we got raided.
13 Q Okay. Talk to -- let's talk about March 10th. You
14 remember that day?
16 Q Okay. Do you remember being picked up or meeting up with
17 J.R. Olson and Coleman Barney that day?
18 A Yeah. March 10th was the day that the -- the trucker had
19 finally arrived. And so Coleman and I drove into town with the
20 trailer full of our -- our household goods to load it up with
21 the trucker, and we met J.R., for him to take us over to
22 introduce us to this -- to this trucker.
23 Q Okay. Was there any other reason why you were going to
24 meet up with J.R. Olson and this trucker? Was there some
25 discussion of -- text messaging about good, goodies, or
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1 something like that?
3 MR. TRAVERSO: Okay, I'll rephrase it.
4 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
5 Q Was there any other reason why you were going to go over
6 to meet up with this trucker, other than the fact that you were
7 going to try to see if your stuff could fit in?
8 A Well, there was other things going on, but not in -- my
9 understanding was that the only reason for going over there was
10 to meet the trucker. But it also -- these events of the
11 trucker arriving and Bill Fulton selling -- or -- or offering
12 the -- the silencers at -- with the matched set and grenades
13 for -- to -- to J.R. was at the same -- same time. I didn't --
14 Q What --
15 A I didn't learn that until I was already in J.R.'s truck,
16 driving to the trucker.
17 Q Eventually you are in a truck with Coleman Barney? Is
18 that correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q At -- on March 10th?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Yes. And did something occur that you can recall
23 regarding the three of you? Mr. Olson, yourself, and Coleman.
24 A Yeah. Coleman and I met J.R. at Fred Meyer West in
25 Fairbanks and were going to ride with him to go meet the
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1 trucker. And we got in his truck and I said, oh -- "Well, you
2 know, what's -- what's up, what's next?" And I was informed
3 that the -- the goodies were here, "but it's not what you were
4 interested in," and we continued driving over towards the
5 trucker while J.R. tried to sell us on the -- on the items.
6 Q Okay. How were you dressed for that interaction with
7 Coleman Barney and Mr. Olson?
8 A Just normal clothes, minus my hat.
9 Q Okay.
10 A I mean, I always wear my hat, but I didn't want to be
11 recognized. And I was -- I was wearing my coat with my hood up
12 and sunglasses and just Carhartts and a -- and a Marmot
13 windshirt.
14 Q Okay. Did you --
15 A I'm sure I was wearing my bulletproof vest too, because I
16 always wear that.
17 Q Okay. Did you send a text message to J.R. Olson about
18 canned goods?
19 A Yeah, canned goods and produce.
20 Q Okay. What did you mean by that?
21 A That meant -- well, ironically enough, we were picking up
22 canned goods from my house. But that -- that text message was
23 the -- referencing the "cans," the silencers, and "produce"
24 meaning pineapple grenades.
25 Q Okay. Well, when you're -- when you were there in the
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1 truck, did -- was something handed to you?
2 A Yeah. He handed me a live -- like, I don't know if it was
3 really real, but I thought it was a really real grenade.
4 Q Okay. And how did you -- before handing those items, did
5 you do anything?
6 A Yes.
7 Q What did you do?
8 A On the way over there, I told him that I did not want what
9 he was trying to sell us, and that he -- it -- he was going to
10 take those back, give them to Bill, give them back to Bill.
11 And then when we got to the place where the trucker was, I --
12 he's like, "Oh, well, look at these, you'll -- they're really
13 sexy, you'll like them. I think you'll change your mind." And
14 I handed -- when he got out of the truck, I handed Coleman a
15 pair of gloves. And I said, "Put these on if you're going to
16 handle those and look at them, because if they go back to Bill,
17 well, yeah."
19 A Implying that I don't want to touch anything and get my
20 fingerprints on anything that then is going to be in the
21 possession of Bill Fulton.
22 Q Okay. If we can just step back a little bit to the
23 trailer, the items in the trailer. Did you have smokeless
24 powder in the trailer?
25 A In the trailer, yes.
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COX - DIRECT
1 Q Okay.
2 A The white -- the white trailer? Yeah.
3 Q Yeah. What did you use smokeless powder for?
4 A Reloading.
5 Q Okay. And --
6 A Reloading ammu -- and just in case nobody knows what
7 that -- reloading ammunition --
8 Q Okay.
9 A -- like bullets.
10 Q You had -- when you were going to court, you always had
11 a -- you had some sort of -- you mentioned earlier that there
12 was some sort of security group or what -- how often did you
13 have a security group with you?
14 A Oh, definitely not always. Just kind of if there was only
15 a -- if there was a big, high-profile thing or something that
16 we were a little bit worried about. We'd -- we'd have a
17 security detail any time we thought there was a -- a chance of
18 us having a -- any kind of confrontation with the two groups
19 that we were worried about --
20 Q Okay.
21 A -- the two people we considered a threat.
22 Q There were some, what we call bangers, seized from the
23 trailer. Who do those belong to?
24 A Oh, the Wildlife Control bangers?
25 Q Yes, the Wildlife --
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1 A The -- that's what -- that's what they're called.
2 Q Yeah.
3 A Those are mine.
4 Q Okay.
5 A I -- I think -- I don't know, that's what we were going to
6 load up for the -- for the grenade golf. That's also what I
7 would use -- the -- the yellow plastic ones with the cardboard
8 insert --
9 Q Yeah.
10 A -- that's also what I would have to use to try to make a
11 line thrower for my business.
12 Q Okay. You had hornet's next canisters too?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay. All right. Were those yours or somebody else's?
15 A Those were mine.
16 Q Okay. What did you use those for?
17 A Well, if somebody's coming to hurt you or kill you and you
18 have to stop them, if you shoot them with that, you'll change
19 their mind. And instead of shooting them with your gun, you
20 have to kill them. It's a way to deter somebody when you don't
21 want to -- you don't want to hurt them bad. You just want
22 to -- you just want to make them stop what they're doing. But
23 you --
24 Q Okay.
25 A -- don't want to -- you don't want to kill somebody or --
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1 or injure them.
2 Q Okay. When you bought --
3 A We -- we used those -- I -- I think; I mean, I -- I said
4 to -- used those out at -- at KJNP --
5 Q Okay.
6 A -- for that security detail.
7 Q Okay.
8 THE COURT: It's about time for the lunch break here,
9 folks. We'll reconvene at 1:30. You all may be excused.
10 (Jury not present at 12:01 p.m.)
11 MS. LAMOUREUX: Your Honor, may I raise something?
12 THE COURT: Yeah. You can step down, Mr. Cox.
13 MS. LAMOUREUX: It -- it's a little late for this, but
14 Mr. Traverso continues to feed answers to Mr. Cox through
15 leading questions and then rephrases the question. And it's
16 been going on for hours. And I hope that --
17 THE COURT: That is --
18 MS. LAMOUREUX: -- in fact the afternoon session --
19 THE COURT: -- a very fair objection, Mr. Traverso.
20 MR. TRAVERSO: All right. Okay.
21 THE COURT: I told you --
22 MR. TRAVERSO: Well, part of the problem --
23 THE COURT: I told you about how not to ask leading
24 questions, and you can't properly ask a leading question and
25 then rephrase it without the same effect. And --
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1 MR. TRAVERSO: All right.
2 THE COURT: -- you know, a leading question is a
3 question that suggests the answer. And when you do that,
4 you're suggesting the answer. So even though the actual
5 question might not be leading in form, you're leading the
6 witness.
8 THE COURT: So we'll have no more of it.
10 THE COURT: Now you want to talk about this interstate
11 commerce ATF -- unknown ATF -- somebody maybe saying something?
12 MS. LAMOUREUX: It's actually not an unknown ATF. They
13 had subpoenaed that agent and then canceled the subpoena for
14 that agent. The fact of the matter is, the proof of the crime
15 of this issue does not -- an element of the crime is not
16 interstate commerce. So any -- first of all, a
17 misunderstanding of the law is not a defense. A
18 misunderstanding of an element of a law that's not even at
19 issue in this case is clearly not a defense. All of that --
20 it's irrelevant to this case and the jury shouldn't hear it.
21 MR. TRAVERSO: Well, I don't think he got a chance to
22 explain that entrapment by estoppel doesn't mean you talk about
23 that you had intent or anything like that.
24 THE COURT: Wait. Wait a minute --
25 MR. TRAVERSO: What it talks about --
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1 THE COURT: I think she'll tell you to use the mic.
2 MR. TRAVERSO: The entrapment by estoppel is that he
3 was acting upon what a public -- a government official talked
4 to him about, and he acted upon that. That in -- and that
5 reliance on that is what the issue is, not whether it's
6 interstate commerce. Maybe in his mind it was mistaken, but
7 that's not what I was trying to submit.
8 I was trying to get after the -- ask the question about
9 whether he had any knowledge of -- first of all, I wanted to
10 know about whether or not -- the next question was going to be
11 whether or not he could have homemade firearms that did not
12 have to be registered. And the next -- the -- what he was
13 instructed was -- is that "As long as they don't cross state
14 lines, you're okay; because what we're after is people who have
15 felony convictions, and we don't want them to have firearms,
16 whether they're homemade or not."
17 And this was all kind of mixed in with his other effort
18 there for the Firearms Freedom Act. But this was not for him
19 to just say, "Well, I -- I'm going to have these weapons, and,
20 sir, if -- you know, if they don't travel interstate commerce
21 or anything like" -- he didn't ex -- that didn't get expounded.
22 All he was -- was talking about whether or not homemade devices
23 were treated differently.
24 MS. LAMOUREUX: Mr. Traverso's argument that Mr. Cox
25 somehow acted upon this alleged misinformation from an ATF
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1 agent is disingenuous. There's already been testimony that Mr.
2 Cox made this weapon when he was 16 years old. I don't think
3 that they're alleging that this conversation happened when Mr.
4 Cox was 16 years old. And then he continued to possess it and
5 did not register it. He was aware of those requirements well
6 before he went to speak with the ATF agent. And all of this is
7 irrelevant to this case.
9 MS. LAMOUREUX: Yeah, Your Honor, the evidence is also
10 that he obviously knew that he had the automatic weapon and
11 that he wasn't supposed to have it. He earlier had had Mr.
12 Anderson move weapons from his home when he was arrested --
13 THE COURT: Yeah.
14 MS. LAMOUREUX: -- and then later on, Joe Nichols --
15 there's conversations about Joe Nichols moving the auto from
16 his home.
17 MR. TRAVERSO: That was pursuant to a court order. And
18 he did that through an attorney.
19 MS. LAMOUREUX: But not the Joe Nichols part. That
20 part came later.
21 THE COURT: Well, it seems to me there's a more
22 fundamental issue here. It is one thing to not allow the
23 testimony -- hearsay of what some unknown AT -- or maybe it's a
24 known ATF agent -- said. And when you ask that question and
25 then follow it up with "What was your state of mind after that
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1 meeting," you're -- it's basically a way to get the hearsay in.
2 And sometimes we allow that, other times not.
3 It seems to me this is a clear attempt to get in
4 evidence that is excludable as hearsay through the device of
5 getting the witness to say that he acted after that meeting in
6 a particular way. This is not just his state of mind, but it
7 seems to me it's much more than that and is an indirect way to
8 call for hearsay under the circumstances presented here.
9 And as pointed out, it's not relevant to the issues
10 that we have in this case, in any event. The objection to that
11 material is sustained. Okay, 1:30.
12 THE CLERK: All rise. This matter is in recess until
13 1:30.
14 (Court recessed at 12:08 p.m., until 1:34 p.m.)
18 THE COURT: Please be seated. You had a matter, Mr.
19 Traverso?
20 MR. TRAVERSO: Yes, Your Honor. There's a -- there was
21 a --
22 THE CLERK: Your microphone, please.
23 MR. TRAVERSO: There's a poster that was referred to in
24 the government's direct. It's a Wanted poster that allegedly
25 Mr. Cox used that to generate some direction -- generate
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1 direction to a target list of judges. We have a poster that
2 is -- been referred to by Mr. Cox and we'd like to -- that he
3 made that we'd like to present as an exhibit. And I understand
4 the government's opposed to us doing it.
5 MS. LAMOUREUX: We don't think that -- first, there's
6 no foundation as to this poster. We received it from Mr.
7 Dooley a couple nights ago, and it's something that's been
8 recreated in the recent days.
9 MR. DOOLEY: Objection. That is not true.
10 MS. LAMOUREUX: I guess I don't -- we don't know where
11 it came from, but --
12 THE COURT: Well, like any exhibit, it depends on the
13 foundation laid for it.
14 MR. TRAVERSO: Sure. But I'd like -- we're going to
15 have to put it on the screen so that Mr. Cox can testify about
16 it.
17 MR. DOOLEY: I can put it on the screen --
18 THE COURT: Well, you're can hand him the --
19 MS. LAMOUREUX: The government would object to that,
20 yeah.
21 THE COURT: You can hand it to him and lay the
22 foundation.
23 MR. TRAVERSO: What I'm saying is I don't have a
24 printed copy of it --
25 THE COURT: Oh.
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1 MR. TRAVERSO: -- but --
2 MR. DOOLEY: I do.
4 MR. DOOLEY: I have it on the screen, if anybody's
5 curious.
6 THE COURT: Well, put it on the -- yeah, it's there.
7 The jury --
9 THE COURT: -- can't see that.
11 THE COURT: So --
12 MR. TRAVERSO: Can I ask him -- okay, I'm sorry.
13 THE COURT: So let's get the jury in. You can lay the
14 foundation and --
16 THE COURT: -- offer it if there's a foundation. All
17 right, bring the jury, please.
18 THE CLERK: Mr. Traverso, will you pull your microphone
19 closer, please?
21 THE CLERK: Thank you.
22 MR. TRAVERSO: I'm sorry, Madam Clerk.
23 THE CLERK: We'll just get that out of the way now, so
24 we don't have to deal with it rest of the afternoon.
25 MR. TRAVERSO: All right. All right. All right.
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COX - DIRECT
1 THE CLERK: Thank you.
2 MR. TRAVERSO: My apology.
3 THE CLERK: Thanks.
4 (Jury present at 1:37 p.m.)
5 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Traverso, you may continue.
7 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
8 Q Earlier today -- well, shortly before noon, I asked you
9 questions about a poster.
10 A Yes.
11 Q It's a Wanted poster?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Okay. What, if anything, do you know about this Wanted
14 poster?
15 A We created this before I --
16 Q Who's -- who created it?
17 A Me and Marti.
18 Q Okay. And --
19 A Marti and I.
20 Q -- when did you create it?
21 A When we were at the Barneys' home, waiting on the trucker.
22 Q Okay. What month would that be?
23 A February.
24 Q What year?
25 A Of 2011.
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COX - DIRECT
1 Q Okay. And what does the Wanted poster -- what is it
2 supposed to be about?
3 A It's a -- it's a Wanted poster for me. It's political
4 cartoons. It was kind of a farewell to Fairbanks, leave
5 behind, you know, because we were never coming back.
6 Q Okay.
7 A Or at least in the foreseeable future.
8 Q Okay. Does the picture of the -- does the picture that
9 you have in front of you accurately represent what you know to
10 be the Wanted poster that you created with your wife Marti?
11 A Yes.
12 MR. TRAVERSO: I'd ask that this be moved as an exhibit
13 for FSC, Your Honor -- right -- Mr. Cox.
14 THE COURT: What -- what's the number, please?
15 MR. TRAVERSO: That would be Number 9.
16 MS. LAMOUREUX: It has a different sticker on it.
17 MR. TRAVERSO: Well, I have a different sticker on it,
18 but we'll take care of that.
19 MS. LAMOUREUX: And where did this item come from?
21 MR. TRAVERSO: He made it. I mean --
22 THE COURT: -- ask the witness.
23 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
24 Q Where did it come from?
25 A It's on our Macbook computer.
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COX - VOIR DIRE
1 Q Okay.
2 A I think it was on the Macbook -- it was -- we made it on a
3 computer.
4 MR. TRAVERSO: I'd like to ask some questions, assuming
5 there's no objection.
6 VOIR DIRE
7 BY MS. LAMOUREUX:
8 Q What date was this made?
9 MR. TRAVERSO: He said in February of 2011.
10 MR. SKROCKI: She's asking him.
11 MR. TRAVERSO: Oh.
12 A Sometime after the 19th and before the 10th -- the --
13 after the 19th of February and before the 10th of March.
14 Q And it came off your Macbook that was seized at Coleman
15 Barney's house?
16 A I'm -- I'm assuming. I'm not remembering just exactly
17 which one we made it on, but that's what -- that would be my --
18 that's what's most likely.
19 MS. LAMOUREUX: No objection.
21 THE COURT: All right. FS -- Exhibit FSC-9 may be
22 admitted.
23 (Defendant Cox's Exhibit FSC-9 admitted)
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COX - DIRECT
1 THE COURT: Want to get the lights too, and we'll --
2 thanks, Denali.
3 THE CLERK: Uh-huh (affirmative).
4 DIRECT EXAMINATION, CONTINUED
5 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
6 Q Can you see the poster in front of you?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay.
9 A Yes.
10 Q Can you tell us what this poster's about, please?
11 A Well, it's -- it's just -- it's a joke that mimics the
12 circumstances of our departure from Fairbanks and the liberty
13 crusade.
14 Q Well, it says $7,500 reward on top.
15 A Oh, that's what the bail was.
16 Q For?
17 A For me on the failure to appear. That's where we got that
18 number.
19 Q There's some pictures on the bottom, and can you tell us
20 what those depict?
21 A Those are characters from the cartoon. And we were going
22 to put Arne Soldwedel's face there in the -- in the Snake.
23 That's the prosecutor. And we were going to put the judge,
24 McConahy, on Prince John. And we were going to put either --
25 I -- yeah, Burke Barrick for the Sheriff.
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COX - DIRECT
1 Q Okay. Okay. That's fine, thank you. When you talk about
2 leaving Alaska, what were your plans?
3 A To spend our time, dedicate our -- our energy and our
4 focus on our children. We -- we -- we'd put a lot of time and
5 a lot of our effort and energy into, you know, the cause of
6 liberty. That was pretty intensive in --
9 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
10 Q Just keep it -- what were your plans? To leave? Would --
11 what was your plan? Just talk -- tell us about that.
12 A Immediate plan?
13 Q Yes.
14 A Was to get out of the country and find another country and
15 live there till our children old enough to --
16 Q Okay.
17 A -- be on their own or until things changed.
18 Q Okay. In a meeting on February -- I think it was February
19 19th, among the militia members that you were talking to,
20 was -- did you -- let me ask it this way. Did you express what
21 your desire was as far as your departure? I'll rephra -- never
22 mind, I'm sorry. You were planning on leaving. Correct?
23 A Yes, we were --
24 Q Okay.
25 A -- planning on leaving.
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COX - DIRECT
1 Q All right. How long were you planning to leave for?
2 A For -- for the foreseeable future. We didn't have any
3 plans to return unless things drastically changed in this
4 country. And if things just stayed the same, we were going to
5 stay out -- you know, stay gone until our -- our children were
6 grown. We didn't want to -- the reason -- are you asking why I
7 was -- why I was leaving?
8 Q No, I'm asking what were your plans as far as leaving the
9 state? I mean, were you going to come back --
10 A With --
11 Q -- or you were not going to come back?
12 A We were not going to come back. We were -- we'd talked
13 about going to Israel, although that's pretty tumultuous. We
14 talked about --
16 BY MR. TRAVERSO:
17 Q Don't get into editorial comments about other things,
18 okay? I know you --
19 A Okay.
20 Q -- want to talk about that stuff, but don't. Okay?
21 When --
22 A We were going to go find a place where Bill Fulton and the
23 feds would not bother us while we dedicated ourselves to
24 raising our children.
25 Q Okay. No further questions.
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COX - CROSS
2 MR. DOOLEY: Could we have the light, Madam Clerk?
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. DOOLEY:
5 Q There was testimony from the government that there were
6 searches done on your computers at Coleman Barney's home.
7 A That's --
8 Q In your recollection of that --
9 A That's correct.
10 Q And there were searches of Coleman Barney's computers that
11 were in Coleman Barney's home. Do you recall that?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Who was doing those searches for names?
14 A The -- oh, the -- the Google searches?
15 Q Right.
16 A Believe that was me and Marti, looking for pictures to
17 fill in this poster.
18 Q Well, you're looking for pictures or are you planning to
19 murder Sheriff Barrick?
20 A Looking for pictures.
21 Q Looking for pictures or planning to murder Judge McConahy?
22 A Just pictures.
23 Q Looking pictures or planning to murder Arne Soldwedel?
24 A Just looking for pictures.
25 Q And I'll get my distraction out of here. The stuff in the
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COX - CROSS
1 trailer, the grenade shells belonged to you?
2 A Yes.
3 Q They did not belong to Coleman Barney?
4 A No.
5 Q Did Coleman Barney have anything to do with them once
6 they're in the trailer, that you know of?
7 A Not that I know of.
8 Q The Alliant gunpowder and the Hodgdon smokeless powder,
9 was that yours?
10 A Yep, that was mine.
11 Q Do you know if Coleman Barney had anything to do with that
12 powder while it was in the trailer?
13 A He did not.
14 Q While we're on the powder, how old was the Alliant
15 gunpowder?
16 A Real old. I got that right after I moved to Alaska in
17 2000 or shortly thereafter. It was real old.
18 Q How about the Hodgdon powder? How --
19 A Both of them were real old.
20 Q Where were they typically stored by you?
21 A I have stored them in a shed outside, at a different place
22 where we lived. I'd also stored them on a -- on a pallet in
23 a -- in some drums at another place that we lived. I had also
24 stored it in my garage for a while. And I know that those were
25 in the toolbox in the back of my truck for a while.
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1 Q Your garage, is it heated or unheated?
2 A Sort of heated. It -- we keep it at about -- just above
3 freezing.
4 Q And the shed and the other places you stored these things,
5 are they heated or unheated?
6 A Unheated.
7 Q Where did you store the grenade shells? Same places or
8 different places?
9 A Imagine those would have been in the -- in the clo -- in a
10 closet at my house where I keep a bunch of rotating gun show
11 knick-knacks, just a -- like a hall closet of stuff I'm buying
12 and selling. And it just is always kind of revolving.
13 Q The Silly Putty stuff or J-B Weld, was that yours or was
14 it Coleman Barney's?
15 A Well, I don't know where the J-B Weld that was on the --
16 in the picture --
18 THE WITNESS: -- came --
20 BY MR. DOOLEY:
21 Q The J-B Weld in the trailer, was that yours or was it
22 Coleman Barney's?
23 A If it came out of the red toolbox, it was mine. If they
24 found it somewhere else in the trailer and put it there for the
25 picture, it could be his.
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1 Q Okay.
2 A I don't -- is that -- that sufficient?
3 Q Did you have any other reloading material in the trailer?
4 A Yes, I had primers and think there might have been a bag
5 of projectiles too, the actual bullet, the metal that -- the
6 lead.
7 Q There was a launcher and some empty bird bangers found in
8 Coleman Barney's home. Were they yours?
9 A Those were mine, yeah.
10 Q There was a blue spoon and I think a fuse found in Coleman
11 Barney's home. Was that yours?
12 A A blue spoon?
13 Q For -- like a practice grenade.
14 A Oh. Probably. I can't say for sure. There's a good
15 chance.
16 Q Okay. The launchers. Did you ever use any of the
17 launchers at all?
18 A No, I actually have never fired one.
19 Q Did you watch anybody fire any of your launchers?
20 A No.
21 Q The launchers in the trailer, were they yours?
22 A Yes.
23 Q The hornet's nests in the trailer and other devices that
24 could be fired by the launcher, were they yours?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q Thank you. No further questions.
2 THE COURT: Ms. Haden.
3 MS. HADEN: No questions of this witness.
4 THE COURT: Ms. Lamoureux.
5 BY MS. LAMOUREUX:
6 Q You've given a number of public speeches. Right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And a lot of them referenced your belief that there was
9 this federal assassination team out to get you. Isn't that
10 true?
11 A I don't know if I would say a lot of them referenced.
12 That -- that was something that I was pretty open about.
13 Q You talked about that --
14 A Yes.
15 Q -- on more than one occasion?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Mr. Traverso asked you some questions about the
18 Continental Congress. Do you remember when you spoke at the
19 Continental Congress and you were interviewed at the
20 Continental Congress?
21 A Yes, but I don't remember what I said.
22 Q And that --
23 A You know, it happened a lot.
24 Q That was back in November of 2009?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q Let me go ahead and just show you the first bit and see if
2 you recognize it, from 917. For the record, this is identified
3 as Government Exhibit 917. Do you see the photo on your screen
4 there?
5 A Yes, I do.
6 Q And that's you in that --
7 A Yes, that's me.
8 MS. LAMOUREUX: Okay, the government offers Exhibit
9 917.
10 MR. TRAVERSO: You were talking about speeches,
11 correct?
12 MS. LAMOUREUX: Uh-huh (affirmative).
13 MR. TRAVERSO: Is this a speech?
14 MS. LAMOUREUX: It's an interview.
15 MR. TRAVERSO: Well, I don't understand -- if you're
16 asking about speeches, what does this have to do with anything?
17 I don't see what the relevance is. If it's -- she's going to
18 ask about speeches -- I thought that's what she was referring
19 to.
20 BY MS. LAMOUREUX:
21 Q You're aware that this was aired publicly?
22 A No, but it's probably fine.
23 Q Those are your words when you're talking to the reporter.
24 Right?
25 A I don't know, I haven't heard it. I mean, I would assume.
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1 I don't think -- unless you changed it. I wouldn't think you'd
2 do that.
3 MS. LAMOUREUX: We can play it outside the presence of
4 the jury, if you like, first.
5 MR. TRAVERSO: I'll withdraw the objection. Go ahead.
6 MR. DOOLEY: No objection.
7 MS. HADEN: I would like a limiting instruction. I
8 don't know that these are words that are attributable to Mr.
9 Vernon.
10 THE COURT: Okay, there being no other objection,
11 Exhibit 917 may be admitted. But again, ladies and gentlemen,
12 it's offered only against Mr. Cox and you should not consider
13 it for any other purpose or as evidence against any other
14 defendant.
15 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 917 admitted)
16 MS. LAMOUREUX: If we could have the lights, Madam
17 Clerk. And the headset -- okay, great.
18 01:57:05
19 (Video played)
20 01:58:07
22 Q You said that everybody has to be responsible for their
23 own actions. Right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And that was before your speeches in Montana, the one that
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1 we listened to yesterday, for example. Right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Let's go ahead and move to what we have identified as
4 Government Exhibit 918. And again, we'll just -- it's from the
5 Continental Congress. We'll bring up the first screen shot so
6 you can identify, see if you recognize yourself in that video.
7 And is that you there?
8 A Yeah. Looks like the same interview.
9 MS. LAMOUREUX: The government offers Exhibit 918.
10 MR. TRAVERSO: No objection.
11 MR. DOOLEY: No objection, except for Ms. Haden's
12 suggested limitation.
13 MS. HADEN: Yeah. Same objection.
14 MS. LAMOUREUX: That's fine, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: All right. 918 may be admitted, but is
16 also admitted only as to the case against Mr. Cox, and you
17 should not consider it for any other purpose or against any
18 other defendant.
20 01:59:13
21 (Video played)
22 02:00:24
24 Q And that was back in 2009. Right?
25 A Yeah, I think that was November 2009.
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1 Q You talked about talking on various stations, KJNP, for
2 example. Right?
3 A Yeah.
4 Q You also called in to the American Underground Network and
5 talked there. Right?
6 A Most -- most likely.
7 MS. LAMOUREUX: We've identified Exhibit 926, some
8 clips from that. Perhaps we can play the first clip outside
9 the presence of the the jury, so that Mr. Cox can confirm that
10 that is his voice.
11 THE COURT: Well, I don't want to keep the jury going
12 in and out here.
13 MR. TRAVERSO: And I don't have an objection, Your
14 Honor, to playing the -- whatever clip it is that they want to
15 play on the American Underground Network.
16 MS. HADEN: I'm sorry, I can't hear Mr. Traverso.
17 MR. TRAVERSO: I don't have any objection to them
18 playing the American Underground Network Radio clip.
19 MR. DOOLEY: Well, then no objection except for a
20 limitation.
21 MS. HADEN: Same here.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MS. LAMOUREUX: There are 11 clips from that American
24 Underground Network recording, and we'd like to pass out the
25 transcript binders, Your Honor.
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1 THE COURT: This -- well, is this all part of 926?
2 MS. LAMOUREUX: It's all part of 926.
3 THE COURT: And it has not been identified by a
4 witness. Is counsel satisfied with the identification by
5 counsel?
6 MR. TRAVERSO: If it's the American Underground Network
7 Radio clips, I don't have an objection to it.
8 MS. LAMOUREUX: They've previously been provided the
9 transcripts of this recording.
10 MR. DOOLEY: I have no objection, except for a
11 limitation.
12 THE COURT: Ms. Haden?
13 MS. HADEN: Yes, limited instruction, please.
14 THE COURT: All right. Okay, 926 may also be admitted,
15 again, against Mr. Cox only, and should not be considered by
16 the jury against any other defendant or for any other purpose.
18 MS. LAMOUREUX: Madam Clerk, could we have the lights
19 when you have a chance?
20 MS. HADEN: I just have one thing before we start
21 playing. I don't think we established the time period for this
22 particular clip.
24 Q Does January 6th, 2011 sound right to you?
25 A I do so many TV and radio shows, I could not tell you when
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1 this happened. But it sounds like me.
2 Q Do you want an opportunity to read that and see if that
3 gives you a sense --
4 A Yes --
5 Q -- of the time frame, if it was before or after a certain
6 event in your life?
7 A Sure. Yeah, I can read that. I could probably narrow
8 this down to sometime in 2010.
9 Q Could it be early 2011 too?
10 A I suppose it could be, yeah. It could be early 2011. Do
11 you know when it's from? I guess I can't ask questions.
12 Sorry, Your Honor.
13 MS. LAMOUREUX: Is there an objection, or --
14 MS. HADEN: No.
15 MS. LAMOUREUX: Okay. All right, let's go ahead and
16 play 926, the first clip.
17 02:05:43
18 (Audio played)
19 02:07:46
21 Q You talked about the respect you get because you have them
22 outmanned and outgunned. Isn't that what you said?
23 A Yes, that's what I said.
24 Q That's the same "outmanned and outgunned" comment that you
25 made to Trooper Schoenberg. Right? That's what you said to
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1 Trooper Schoenberg, you had them --
2 A I may -- I --
3 Q -- outmanned and outgunned?
4 A Yeah, I made the same comment. Yeah.
5 Q Go to the next clip.
6 02:08:20
7 (Audio played)
8 02:08:52
9 Q Let's go to the next clip.
10 02:08:55
11 (Audio played)
12 02:09:16
13 Q You said you had federal agents try to kill you that
14 summer?
15 A Yes.
16 Q That's referring to the summer of 2010?
17 A Yes.
19 02:09:30
20 (Audio played)
21 02:12:00
22 Q On the first page of that clip, on page 13 there, you said
23 that they didn't have a lick of evidence.
24 A Yeah.
25 Q That's not true, is it?
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1 A No, that's true. Well, I -- what's evidence?
2 Q Photos.
3 A Yeah, there's a photo.
4 Q Photos of Marti?
5 A Yes. If you're going to reference those, can we see them?
6 Or, well, I -- you know, I would like to -- to see that before
7 I comment on it.
8 Q OCS wanted to interview your child. Right?
9 A Yes.
11 Q It wasn't because DEA was behind this, was it?
12 A I believe it was.
13 Q It wasn't because your child was in -- was present?
14 A I don't believe that was the reason.
15 Q What about Marti's recorded statement? That's evidence,
16 isn't it?
17 A I can't speak to that.
18 Q Well, you got her to recant her statement, didn't you?
19 MR. TRAVERSO: Objection, Your Honor. That -- --
20 there's no -- that's an accusation. That's --
21 MS. LAMOUREUX: Credibility.
22 MR. TRAVERSO: Objection.
23 THE COURT: The objection's overruled.
24 THE WITNESS: I didn't get my wife to do anything.
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1 Q Let's go to the next clip, 926-05, page 17.
2 02:14:03
3 (Audio played)
4 02:14:58
5 Q At the beginning part of that clip, you're talking about
6 your arrest by the Fairbanks Police Department. Right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q That's the arrest in mid-March 2010, right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q You said it was a breaking and entering just to get you to
11 show up? Isn't that what you said?
12 A That's what I was, yeah, implying.
13 Q And you're talking about the Fairbanks Police Department
14 doing a breaking and entering?
15 A Yes.
16 Q You were responding to a Liberty Bell call that night.
17 Right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And it actually -- law enforcement was responding to a 911
20 call. Right?
21 A I don't know that.
22 Q You know that, don't you?
23 A That house doesn't have a landline, so I don't believe
24 that there was a 911 call.
25 Q But you know from the law enforcement officer that they
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1 were responding to a 911 call, don't you?
2 A I didn't believe what he told me.
3 Q And law enforcement was in the process of getting a search
4 warrant because of a drug operation in the house. Right?
5 A No.
6 Q You were told that, weren't you?
7 A That's what I was taking notes on, is them telling the
8 homeowner that they weren't going to get a warrant, they were
9 just coming in anyway.
10 Q Did you say you were taking notes? Is that what you've
11 just said?
13 Q You approached the house, didn't you?
14 A Uh-huh (affirmative). Yes.
15 Q And you knocked on the door. Right?
16 A I don't remember. I think I -- I think the door may have
17 been open.
18 Q You were knocking on the door, weren't you?
19 A I said I don't -- I don't remember. The door may have
20 been open.
21 Q And then when you were approached by the law enforcement
22 officer, you didn't tell him that you had a loaded weapon in
23 your pocket, did you?
24 A I did tell him.
25 Q So if we listen to the recording of that, we're going to
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1 hear you tell him that before you're patted down by him?
2 A Yeah, I -- I told him within a matter of seconds of
3 contact.
4 Q And you were trying to get in the house when law
5 enforcement was already there. Right?
6 A No, I was just taking notes.
7 Q Law enforcement was already there, right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And your story is you were just taking notes?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Do you remember your conversation with Sergeant Yamamoto
12 that night?
13 A No. I know I talked to him.
14 Q I don't want to get too far ahead, but at one point, Mr.
15 Traverso asked you --
16 A Sergeant Yamamoto, that's the arresting officer --
17 Q I'm not finished --
18 A -- right?
19 Q -- with my question.
20 A I -- okay.
21 Q Mr. Traverso was asking you about that night at KJNP in
22 November of 2010. Do you remember the questions that Mr.
23 Traverso asked you today?
24 A Not all of them. But I remember being asked.
25 Q He asked you why you were wearing body armor that night.
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1 Do you remember Mr. Traverso asking you that question?
2 A I don't remember Traverso asking me why I was wearing body
3 armor.
4 Q Well, then you probably don't remember that you said you
5 were wearing it because of your fear of Bill Fulton and the
6 feds. Do you remember that?
7 A Oh. Yes. Yes.
8 Q Okay. Do you remember -- well, I'm going to stop with the
9 "do you remembers." You told Sergeant Yamamoto the night you
10 were arrested in mid-March 2010 that you were wearing body
11 armor because you're Jewish. Isn't that what you told Sergeant
12 Yamamoto?
13 A That may have been part of it. But -- well, that's --
14 Q Let's go to our next clip, 926-06.
15 02:19:14
16 (Audio played)
17 02:20:40
18 Q You said that OCS said, "We're here to take Seth Cox."
19 That's what you said?
20 A Yes.
21 Q They just wanted to interview him. Right?
22 A That's not what she said.
23 Q That's what the court paperwork was about, following your
24 refusal to let them interview him. Right?
25 A We wanted them to interview with him. We just wanted them
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1 to follow their policies.
2 Q You just wanted to be left alone. Isn't that right?
3 A It -- yeah, that's why we wanted to get the interview done
4 and out of the way.
5 Q You refused to have your son interviewed by OCS. Isn't
6 that true?
7 A No.
8 Q That's why OCS needed to file paperwork to be able to
9 interview your son. Right?
10 A Our son was interviewed by OCS.
11 Q Again, you're saying that it was the DEA that was pushing
12 this, it wasn't your conviction related to the domestic
13 violence. Right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q So Wendy Williams was just misspeaking when she was here?
16 MR. DOOLEY: Objection.
18 MS. LAMOUREUX: Let's go to the next clip.
19 02:22:07
20 (Audio played)
21 02:26:32
23 Q If we turn back to the first page of that clip on page 22,
24 the beginning of the clip you're describing a situation where
25 you're driving around and you have Kevlar and grenade launchers
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1 in the back seat. Did you hear that part?
2 A Yes.
3 Q So you had grenade launchers in your back seat. Right?
4 A That's what I said.
5 Q But you've never shot one off?
6 A No, never fired one.
7 Q Just drive around with them in your back seat?
8 A Yeah.
9 Q Then you talk about a situation, going on base, and you
10 say that he told you that you and your wife could have
11 political asylum on post. That's what you said, right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q That didn't happen either, did it?
14 A That did happen. I talked to Colonel Jones, and he said
15 that we could come on post, and if the feds came on, we would
16 have -- the -- that the MPs would make sure that there wasn't
17 any big showdown.
18 Q That there would be no showdown, meaning what?
19 A A showdown, that any -- any kind of conflict that we were
20 trying to avoid.
21 Q So that doesn't sound like asylum, does it?
22 A It does when you're the object of the showdown.
23 Q Well, actually, the military doesn't have any authority to
24 issue -- grant asylum to anybody, does it?
25 A I don't know if they have the -- the authority, but that's
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1 what they said and that's what I believe that they would have
2 done for us.
3 Q So if we were to call Colonel Jones, that's what he's
4 going to say?
5 A I think he'd say that.
6 Q If we go to the next page in the transcript. Do you
7 remember this section here where you're talking about -- back
8 to the OCS case. And you said that the whole reason for them
9 coming and taking away your son is a picture of your son on
10 Facebook playing with ammunition belts like it's choo-choo
11 trains.
12 A Yes.
13 Q Well, so what is it? Why is OCS coming to interview your
14 son?
15 A Well, I believe they were using that as a -- a -- as a
16 catalyst to spark a confrontation and at the same time having
17 Bill Fulton push us. But they did mention ammunition in the
18 application for the writ of assistance, but I didn't believe
19 that was a legitimate reason or concern.
20 Q Wait, wait, wait. So now you're linking OCS with Bill
21 Fulton?
22 A I'm not villainizing OCS. I think they were being used --
23 I think they were a tool.
24 Q I just -- I missed the link that you were making there
25 between OCS and Bill Fulton. You said Bill Fulton in there.
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1 A Joseph Bottini took this case, my case, my terrorism case,
2 and right after he took the case, Bill Fulton showed up and OCS
3 showed up. So I kind of think he might be the link.
4 Q There's a new name. Okay. Now, the picture on Facebook,
5 you call -- it's a -- with a 223 SAW belt?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Can you tell the jury what a SAW belt is?
8 A It's a -- I think it's nine feet. It's a long string of
9 223 ammunition put together in a belt, in links.
10 Q And what's it stand for?
11 A SAW? I think that's Squad Automatic Weapon.
12 Q So now you're not here talking about your domestic
13 violence conviction at all? Now you're -- right? You don't
14 talk about your conviction here at all?
15 A In this -- in this transcript?
16 Q In this recording, in this clip we just played.
17 A I don't know. We're only listening to pieces of it, so I
18 can't answer that.
19 Q I'm only asking you about the clip we just played.
20 A In the -- in the limited clip you just played, I did not
21 mention it.
23 02:31:07
24 (Audio played)
25 02:33:28
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1 Q On the first page of that transcript there, you reference
2 people who are afraid of what the militia would do to them.
3 A Which page number?
4 Q Page 27, first paragraph. We just played the clip. Do
5 you remember that?
6 A Yes.
7 Q You were proud of having people afraid of what the militia
8 would do to them. Right?
9 A It doesn't say that.
10 Q My question to you is you were proud of having people
11 afraid of what the militia would do to them?
12 A I don't believe in making people scared.
13 Q You were using your militia to intimidate people, weren't
14 you?
15 A APM is not intimidating.
16 Q You were using people to intimidate -- you were using the
17 militia to intimidate people, weren't you?
18 A No.
19 Q And then you said, "Grow a pair and start a militia."
20 A Yes.
21 Q Sort of like grow a pair and stand up to something, right?
22 A That's not what --
23 Q That's not what you were saying there?
24 A Are you -- what are you -- what are you implying? You'll
25 have to be more specific with your question.
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1 Q We'll go to the next clip, 926-09.
2 02:34:57
3 (Audio played)
4 02:37:21
5 Q During this clip, you're talking about a state court
6 hearing that you had. Right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And that's a hearing before Judge McConahy. Is that
9 right?
10 A I think in this transcript I said "Mike," and I think that
11 would be Michael MacDonald. But it was a state judge, anyway.
12 I can't say for sure. But --
13 Q Okay, so that's who the "Mike" is a reference to at the
14 bottom of that page?
15 A I think so.
16 Q "But you know what, Mike, I don't -- from one father to
17 another father, I don't want to put my influence to the test
18 while the lives of you and your children are on the line."
19 A Yes, that's what I said.
21 02:38:15
22 (Audio played)
23 02:38:53
24 Q So here, you're talking about sending units of your
25 militia out to another citizen's house. Right?
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1 A Now I'm talking about Brad Baker, the guy I talked about
2 earlier, if you remember --
3 Q So yes, your quest -- your answer is "Yes"? You were
4 talking about sending out units of your militia to a citizen's
5 house?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And you're the one who's issuing the orders. Right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q You -- it was a Liberty Bell call, wasn't it?
10 A Yes.
11 Q But you decided to send out your militia?
12 A Yeah, I thought that Brad Baker was probably the problem,
13 and --
14 Q So the Liberty Bell -- let's go back to the Liberty Bell.
15 Yesterday -- I can't remember now -- earlier -- the jury heard
16 you describe the Liberty Bell as, "So if you mess with one of
17 us, you mess with all of us." Right? That's what the Liberty
18 Bell is?
19 A I don't think that -- I think that's a deceptive
20 characterization, if you leave it in just that concept --
21 Q Okay.
22 A -- that --
23 Q Let's play Exhibit 916-01.
24 MS. LAMOUREUX: And it's going to be video. Madam
25 Clerk, if we could have the lights.
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1 02:40:36
2 (Video played)
3 02:40:47
4 BY MS. LAMOUREUX:
5 Q Okay. "If you mess with one of us, you mess with all of
6 us." Right?
7 A I felt like you're -- implied violence there. That is
8 public -- public scrutiny. So in that regard, yes.
9 MS. LAMOUREUX: Well, if we could have the lights
10 again, Madam Clerk. Thanks.
12 Q You considered it your own private check on law
13 enforcement, right?
14 A A watchdog. But -- no, not my own private -- no, I would
15 not agree with your statement.
16 Q Well, we just heard the clip from the American Underground
17 Network where you've described how you sent out units to
18 respond. Right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And the Liberty Bell -- I mean, it -- people are supposed
21 to call you with questions, right? The Liberty Bell card has
22 your number listed on it?
23 A It's got my number, but when you call the Liberty Bell,
24 whoever's taking a turn carrying that around is who answers.
25 Q Yesterday you described it as some sort of automatic phone
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1 tree, but that's not how it actually works, right?
2 A That is how it actually works.
3 Q Well, we just heard this clip from the American
4 Underground Network where you described how you just sent units
5 in. Right?
6 A Well, that was a special situation, because in my -- in my
7 assessment, Brad Baker was the one causing the problem, and the
8 cops were doing okay. And I didn't want to send a bunch of
9 people out for the -- for Brad Baker when he was the problem.
10 And he got arrested that night and I helped him -- him get --
11 helped get him arrested.
12 Q And this is -- I mean, this is what got you into trouble
13 with Fairbanks Police Department in mid-March 2010. Right?
14 A I suppose, yes. Yes.
15 Q And anyways, when you talk about the units, that's not
16 true anyways, right? You don't have units?
17 A We have units.
18 Q In the militia?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Are they one-man units?
21 A No.
22 Q Let's go to the next clip, 926-11.
23 02:43:05
24 (Audio played)
25 02:44:10
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1 Q This isn't the first time we've heard you say that power
2 comes out of the barrel of a gun. Right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q We saw that newspaper article, for example, right, where
5 you were quoted, saying power comes out of the barrel of a gun?
6 A I never say power comes out of the barrel of a gun unless
7 I'm juxtaposing it with authority.
8 Q My question was, we saw it in the newspaper article.
9 Right?
10 A I don't -- I don't remember that. We probably did, but --
11 Q Okay, let's look at Exhibit 807.
12 THE COURT: Excuse me, counsel. We've had a number of
13 clips here and you've had transcripts. I want to remind you
14 again that the transcripts are not the evidence. The recording
15 is the evidence. And I've given you that instruction before
16 and just wanted to remind you of it again in regard to these
17 clips. What number do you refer --
18 MS. LAMOUREUX: 807. It's a document there.
20 Q There you go. "Authority comes from being congruent from
21 natural law, God's law. Power comes from the barrel of a gun."
22 That right there.
23 A Yeah. Correct.
24 Q See that in the bottom page, yeah.
25 A They were -- they were together. That's how I usually say
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1 that.
2 Q Uh-huh (affirmative). So authority would be like you
3 being commander of the APM. Right? That's authority?
4 A No.
5 Q Oh, okay. You were the commander of the APM, right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And you gave a lot of speeches where you talked about this
8 3,500-man force. Right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q I think yesterday you may have referred to them as your
11 checks and balances? Is that right?
12 A I -- I remember something like that.
13 Q But they're under your command? Right?
14 A But they only follow orders congruent with their
15 conscience.
16 Q My question was they're under your command. Right?
17 A Partially.
18 Q And you decide when people get to move up in the ranks.
19 Right?
20 A No.
21 Q Well, you decided when Mr. Olson got to move up in the
22 ranks, didn't you?
23 A Yes.
24 Q You're the commander. Isn't that right?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q And you never had close to 300 and -- or 3,500 privates
2 under your command. Right?
3 A Not in the APM.
4 Q Well, you didn't have that many people under your command
5 anywhere, did you?
6 A No.
7 Q You'd probably need to drop a couple zeros from that
8 number. Isn't that true?
9 A That's the number from the whole movement in Fairbanks.
10 Q I'm talking about people who are under your command.
11 A That's not under my direct command.
12 Q Right. It would be more like two digits, right, maybe
13 under your command?
14 A No, more than that. You mea -- what -- what -- what are
15 you -- what are you asking?
16 Q Every time you talked about your militia numbers, it was a
17 lie, wasn't it?
18 A Yeah, it was a -- it was a bluff. It was applying the
19 number in the whole movement.
20 Q But you referred to it as your militia. Didn't you?
21 A With the -- yes.
22 Q And you said that you'd be able to -- you could put your
23 militia on high alert and have anybody having to do with
24 tyranny dead in one night. Isn't that what you said?
25 A I said that.
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1 Q But it was the family militia. Right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And I'm assuming that you're the one who decides who's
4 that person having to do with tyranny?
5 A No.
6 Q Well, you're the commander. Right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And you said that you'd put your militia on high alert and
9 can have anybody having to do with tyranny dead in one night.
10 And you're the one who's deciding who has to do with tyranny.
11 Right?
12 A No.
13 Q Basically, you were building your own private army. Isn't
14 that true?
15 A I would not agree with that.
16 Q Well, let's see. You had police duty belts, didn't you?
17 Right?
18 A Yep.
19 Q More than a box of them. Isn't that true?
20 A I don't -- I don't know, I have -- I -- I kind of buy
21 anything that's a good deal. And if I got a good deal on two
22 boxes, I might have two boxes. Got a good deal on one, it's
23 probably just one.
24 Q You had handcuffs. Right?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q And thumbcuffs. Right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Yesterday you mentioned that you can't force people to
4 change. Right?
5 A That's right.
6 Q You had a lock-picking set. Right?
7 A Yeah.
8 Q And gas masks?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And CS canisters?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And OC canisters?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And Tannerite?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And CS grenades?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And 37-millimeter launchers?
19 A Yes.
20 Q By the way, when you talked about playing grenade golf
21 with the launchers, were you going to use those OC and CS and
22 hornet's nest rounds for that?
23 A No.
24 Q And you had hornet's nest rounds. Right?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q Those are the ones that can fold you up like a pretzel,
2 right? That's what you said?
3 A They -- I bet they hurt pretty bad.
4 Q Well, you said they can fold you up like a pretzel.
5 Right?
6 A Yeah.
7 Q Those are the same hornet's nest rounds that you denied
8 knowing anything about when you were interviewed by Agent
9 Sutherland. Right?
10 A Think he was asking me about a sting ball.
11 Q You didn't understand the question that he asked you?
12 A Confused enough that I didn't want to get into it.
13 Q And you didn't want to ask for clarification?
14 A No, I had -- I definitely had an objective -- I was
15 feeling pretty shifty when I was being interviewed by
16 Sutherland.
17 Q That's why you denied knowing what hornet's nests were.
18 Right?
19 A No. He said a sting -- a sting ball. And I didn't know
20 what -- what that was.
21 Q Let's go to Exhibit 41-12, and just play that clip, so we
22 don't have to go through this.
23 THE COURT: That's already in evidence?
24 MS. LAMOUREUX: Yes. Yes, Your Honor.
25 MS. HADEN: Just for clarification, is --
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1 MS. LAMOUREUX: 41. It --
2 MS. HADEN: Is this one of the clips that is only
3 admitted against Mr. Cox?
4 MS. LAMOUREUX: Yes, you're correct.
5 MS. HADEN: If the jury could be instructed again.
6 THE COURT: I gather that this clip also is -- you were
7 advised of before, but it's offered against Mr. Cox only and
8 not against any other defendants --
9 MS. LAMOUREUX: Actually, I'm not sure --
10 THE COURT: -- and you should --
11 MS. LAMOUREUX: I'm not sure about that, Your Honor.
13 MS. LAMOUREUX: I'd have to check my notes.
14 THE COURT: Okay. Let's --
15 MS. LAMOUREUX: My apologies.
16 THE COURT: Let's check first, then.
17 MS. LAMOUREUX: Okay. It is, Your Honor. It is for
18 Schaeffer only, Schaeffer Cox only.
19 THE COURT: All right. And you should consider it for
20 no other purpose other than the case against Mr. Cox.
21 MS. LAMOUREUX: Okay, 41-12.
22 02:52:20
23 (Audio played)
24 02:53:15
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1 Q You said, "I don't know what a hornet's nest and a sting
2 ball is." Right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q But you know what a hornet's nest is. Right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You didn't clarify that for Agent Sutherland, did you?
7 A Didn't volunteer any information, no.
8 Q Well, actually, you denied knowing what it was.
9 MR. DOOLEY: Objection. That's not (indiscernible).
10 MR. TRAVERSO: That's misleading, Your Honor. That's
11 not what he said.
12 THE COURT: The objection --
13 MS. LAMOUREUX: The --
14 THE COURT: -- is overruled.
16 Q So the question was, "Like a hornet's nest or a sting
17 ball, something like that?" And you said, "I don't know what a
18 hornet's nest and a sting ball is." Right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Let's go to Exhibit 790, which has already been admitted.
21 This is your text, and it says, "Well, yes, but we have 10 guys
22 in the house. If we all keep a gun close, that is enough, I
23 think, AR-15 at the top of the steps with a hornet's nest." Do
24 you remember sending that text?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q That's the night of KJNP. Right?
2 A Yep.
3 Q So you knew what a hornet's nest was. Right?
4 A Oh, yes, I know what a hornet's nest is.
5 Q And you knew it at the time that you were interviewed,
6 right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Let's go to 794, Exhibit 794, which is already admitted,
9 page 12. Right there, we've got the -- on the upper left side.
10 We've got a number of items listed with prices next to them.
11 Talking about your duty belts, radios, puffs, taser, mags. Do
12 you see all that?
13 A Yeah.
14 Q You're keeping track of what you have, right?
15 A I don't -- I don't know that that's what I was doing.
16 Q You were price --
17 A Looks like -- look --
18 Q -- pricing the stuff out?
19 A Yeah, either to buy or sell. That -- that would be a -- a
20 fair assumption. That's probably a safe assumption.
21 Q You were mostly buying, though, weren't you?
22 A I don't -- I didn't sell any duty belts.
23 Q Let's go to Exhibit --
24 A I might have.
25 Q -- 792, page 8. Got some texts there with your friend
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1 Jim. Right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And if we look at October 15th, 2010, you said, "I need
4 six duty belts." Right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q "Like cops use"?
7 A Yes.
8 Q So you were -- I mean, you were outfitting your guys.
9 Right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And you texted with Aaron Bennett too, asking for similar
12 stuff. Right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And you also had grenade bodies with expended fuses,
15 right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And you had grenade bodies with live fuses, right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q You had a number of firearms, right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q A lot of ammunition?
22 A Yes.
23 Q All for your private army. Right?
24 A No.
25 Q And with all these weapons, you had a place to stash them,
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1 didn't you?
2 A Lots of places.
3 Q I should mention one thing about this police duty belt. I
4 think you might have told the jury it's because they have a
5 well -- well-made -- something about a holster? That's why you
6 needed the duty belts?
7 A Yes.
8 Q That's what you want them to believe?
12 Q You needed handcuffs and thumbcuffs. Right? You wanted
13 those things, right?
14 A Yeah.
15 Q But you only wanted the duty belt because it was -- had a
16 good holster on it?
17 A I didn't say I wanted it only for that. You're --
18 Q You also texted with Bill Fulton for radios and earpieces,
19 didn't you?
20 A Yes.
21 Q So you had your own places to stash these weapons. Right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q We talked about the shed off of Bradway Road earlier.
24 A Yes.
25 Q Remember that? You said that you used it personally.
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1 Right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q But Lonnie Vernon and Coleman Barney also helped you use
4 it, right?
5 A I don't think Lonnie's ever even been out there.
6 Q I asked you if they helped you use it.
7 A You -- you'll have to clarify that -- that question a
8 little bit.
9 Q Do you remember that day when you were staying at Mr.
10 Vernon's house on February 14th, 2011?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And you had some conversations with Mr. Olson and Mr.
13 Vernon? Do you remember that?
14 A Yes.
15 MS. LAMOUREUX: I'd like to offer Government Exhibit
16 20-03.
17 THE COURT: I have Exhibit 20 in evidence.
18 MS. LAMOUREUX: 20-03 is not a clip that we've played
19 yet, Your Honor. We haven't offered it before, I don't
20 believe. We played other clips from Exhibit 20, the same
21 conversation. It's just a different portion of it.
22 THE COURT: All right. Is there any objection to 20-
23 03?
24 MR. TRAVERSO: No, I don't have any objection to it.
25 MR. DOOLEY: No objection. Except it shouldn't be
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1 offered against Mr. Coleman Barney.
2 MS. LAMOUREUX: These are co-conspirator statements,
3 Your Honor.
4 MS. HADEN: No objection.
5 THE COURT: 20-03 may be admitted.
6 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 20-03 admitted)
7 MS. LAMOUREUX: Now, actually, if we could have the
8 lights, Madam Clerk.
9 03:02:10
10 (Audio played)
11 03:03:25
13 Q So Mr. Vernon asks you if you need anything out of that
14 stash out at North Pole. Right?
15 A Correct.
16 Q He says, "Coleman called me. I've got to call him back
17 here pretty soon." Isn't that right?
18 A Correct.
19 Q And Coleman knew where the key was for that shed. Right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And then you went there together with Coleman Barney and
22 Gerald Olson on February 21st and moved items from the stash.
23 Right?
24 A Correct.
25 Q And prior to that, you had talked about going to pick some
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1 cherries or something like that from that shed, right?
2 A Yes.
4 Clerk.
5 BY MS. LAMOUREUX:
6 Q Now, even though you talked about this federal
7 assassination -- this federal team out to get you, you didn't
8 really believe that, did you?
9 A I believe it more now than then.
10 Q You know who Tim Turner is. Right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q He's the leader of the RUSA. Is that right?
13 A Think he's involved with that somehow.
14 Q He had some kind of position up high in it, though, right?
15 A I -- I couldn't really speak to that with any authority
16 other than knowing that he's somehow involved.
17 MR. DOOLEY: Objection to the relevance of this.
18 MS. LAMOUREUX: I'm getting there.
20 Q When did you first meet him?
21 A I've actually never met him. I've -- I think I've talked
22 to him twice on the phone.
23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, who are you speaking of, please?
24 MS. LAMOUREUX: His name is Tim Turner.
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1 Q On February 12th, you had a conversation with Mr. Olson
2 and you talk about Tim Turner a little bit in that
3 conversation. Do you remember that?
4 A On February 12th?
6 A Was the -- was it at the bus?
7 Q Asking you if you remember it.
8 A I don't specifically remember mentioning Tim Turner's
9 name, but it --
10 Q Well, so who's your understand -- what's your
11 understanding of who Tim Turner is?
12 A He's a patriot guy, UC -- he -- he's a UCC guru from down
13 in the States.
14 Q And his phone number's in your cell phone too. Right?
15 A Yeah.
16 Q And didn't he actually -- wasn't he the first one to come
17 up with the same story about the assassination team out to get
18 him?
19 A About him? I'm not aware of any of that.
20 Q You didn't know that he came up with that story first?
22 MR. TRAVERSO: Where's the foundation, Your Honor?
23 THE COURT: The objection to the last question is
24 sustained.
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1 Q You didn't know that Tim Turner also had a story out there
2 about a federal assassination team out to get him?
3 A I --
4 MR. TRAVERSO: Asked and answered. It's asked --
6 MR. TRAVERSO: -- and answered.
7 THE COURT: What's the next question? I don't know if
8 you're waiting for me for some --
9 MS. LAMOUREUX: I was waiting for an answer.
10 THE COURT: Yeah.
11 MS. LAMOUREUX: So --
12 THE COURT: What's the question to the witness?
14 Q You didn't know that Tim Turner came up with the same
15 story about a federal assassination team out to get him?
16 A I may have heard something like that from rumors.
17 Q Turning to the night of -- or the day and night of KJNP in
18 November of 2010.
19 THE COURT: Counsel, it's time for a break. Let's
20 leave that till after we take 10 here. You may be excused,
21 folks.
22 THE CLERK: How long, Judge, did you say? How long?
23 THE COURT: Ten.
24 THE CLERK: Ten, all right.
25 THE COURT: Or so.
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1 THE CLERK: Okay. Off record.
2 (Court recessed at 3:08 p.m., until 3:23 p.m.)
6 THE COURT: Please be seated. Okay, bring the jury in,
7 please.
9 BY MS. LAMOUREUX:
10 Q Turning now to KJNP on November 23rd, 2010. You told your
11 subordinates about that federal plot to kill you. Right?
12 A Told everybody that would listen about that plot to kill
13 me, or at least get me to act out so they could.
14 Q You know, right at the beginning when I started asking you
15 questions today, I asked you if you gave a lot of speeches
16 about these federal assassins, this federal plot to kill you.
17 You didn't seem sure about your answer. Do you want to answer
18 that again?
19 A I didn't give speeches with that as the central theme, but
20 it was definitely something that concerned me and I told a lot
21 of people about.
22 Q And you wrote the briefing plan that's on that whiteboard
23 we've seen before. Right?
24 A I don't think I wrote that onto the whiteboard, but I -- I
25 think what -- what was actually happening was I was talking and
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1 somebody was writing down what I was saying.
2 Q Because you're the commander. Right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Let's look at that photo of the whiteboard. And it's
5 Exhibit 139, which has already been admitted. If we could have
6 the light, Madam Clerk. Thank you. So somebody else was
7 writing. Who was writing, by the way?
8 A I don't know, but they got way better spelling than me.
9 Q Was it an APM member?
10 A Yeah, it would have been an A -- yeah, it would have been
11 an APM guy.
12 Q At one of your briefings?
13 A Yeah.
14 Q Which briefing?
15 A The one before KJNP.
16 Q But you had more than one, didn't you?
17 A With regards to KJNP?
18 Q You had more than one briefing regarding KJNP. Right?
19 A I'm only remembering one briefing regarding KJNP.
20 Q And who was present for that briefing?
21 A A lot -- a lot of people. I can't remember. I know Ken
22 was there. I think Gary Brockman was there. I think Coleman
23 was there, maybe Karen and -- Karen and Lonnie were there.
24 Q And where was that?
25 A At my house.
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1 Q Were you telling the person who was writing what to write
2 down?
3 A No, not verbatim.
4 Q But the points listed here on the left-hand side, those
5 are from you. Right?
6 A Yeah. They're accurate. I would stand by those enough to
7 say those were -- were mine. Well, I didn't write them down.
8 Those -- I would say definitely are -- as a matter -- practical
9 matter are attributable to me.
10 Q For the security team at KJNP? Right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And you were looking for volunteers who were prepared to
13 kill. Right?
14 A I don't think that's what we put in an email if that's
15 what you're asking. I don't -- I --
16 Q That's not what I'm asking. What I'm asking is you were
17 looking for volunteers who were prepared to kill, weren't you?
18 A No, I was looking for people who would do everything
19 before they had to kill.
20 Q But were prepared to kill if those circumstances arised?
21 Right?
22 A What circumstances?
23 Q Well, it says, "Do not shoot" -- number 6, for example.
24 You're the commander, you tell me. But number 6 says, "Do not
25 shoot unless life is in danger." Right?
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1 A That's correct.
2 Q So somebody needed to be prepared to shoot if life was in
3 danger. Right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q So you were looking for volunteers who were prepared to
6 kill. Right?
7 A That's a pretty caustic way of putting it, but yes.
8 Q Let's see. Number 7. "Drawing down on Schaeffer, Marti,
9 Judge Bartels, shoot for defense."
10 THE COURT: I don't know if the jury can read that. I
11 can't read it from here.
12 MS. LAMOUREUX: We don't have any control over the
13 projector light from here, I don't believe, but we'll work on
14 it.
15 THE COURT: Oh. No, I don't mean the light. I mean
16 it's far enough away so that it's hard to read unless it's
17 blown up.
18 MS. LAMOUREUX: Yeah, if we could just maybe -- the
19 five through seven, if that works. And I'm not going to be on
20 this for too long, Your Honor.
22 Q It says, "Shoot for defense," doesn't it?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Let's look at Exhibit 153, page 3. Whose notes are those?
25 A That's my handwriting.
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1 Q So that's also for the security team that night at KJNP.
2 Right?
3 A Let me read that, see if I can narrow it down, make sure
4 that it is. Yeah -- oh, yeah, it is. Yes, that's KJNP right
5 there, yeah.
6 Q Did you have security teams on other nights?
7 A I think we planned some. But events didn't happen and
8 things fell through and they would -- they didn't -- like we
9 didn't go -- I know we planned one for the court, but then
10 there was an ice storm and we didn't go.
11 Q And would you have had the same prep list for the rifle,
12 pistol, armor, OC and CS grenades for that --
13 A It --
14 Q -- security team as well?
15 A It -- it probably would have been a little bit different,
16 you know, tailored to that particular situation. But it
17 probably would have been pretty similar.
18 Q So under -- was the -- it says "OC and CS grenades" in the
19 prep section there. Right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q How many OC and CS grenades did you have?
22 A You talking about canisters for a 37-millimeter launcher,
23 or pull --
24 Q Let's --
25 A -- the pin and throw them?
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1 Q Let's start with the canisters.
2 A A whole -- a whole grocery sack full of them, like a -- a
3 plastic bag full of them.
4 Q Like more than 20?
5 A Could -- could be. I don't know, we saw all the pictures
6 of them all lined up.
7 Q You had 28 in your trailer. Right?
8 A Yeah. That sounds about right.
9 Q Okay. How about a -- let's see, S canisters. How many of
10 those did you have?
11 A Let's see, they're more expensive, so probably less.
12 Probably a dozen or so.
13 Q What about the hornet's nests? How many of those did you
14 have?
15 A Just -- I think I had four.
16 Q And the range on those launchers is 100 yards, isn't it?
17 A Yeah, it's -- it's not very far.
18 Q Not very far. Hundred yards?
19 A Compared to a 223, 100 yards is not very far.
20 Q CS grenades, how many of those did you have?
21 A The kind you pull the pin and they smoke?
22 Q What other kinds are there?
23 A I think -- I think two of those. The ones that you pull
24 by hand, I think I had two of those. And then all the rest of
25 them were canisters for the 37-millimeter launchers.
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1 Q Okay. So Major Barney's the security leader that night,
2 right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And then a couple -- a few lines down from that it says,
5 "Don't shoot unless life is in danger," parentheses, "agents,"
6 parentheses. Right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q So they were supposed to shoot if life was in danger,
9 right?
10 A As a last resort, if some guys jumped out of a van and
11 started shooting without so much as a "Hey, you," yes. If
12 there was any possible way to avoid that, then no.
13 Q And that's what you communicated to that security team at
14 the briefing?
15 A Yep, very clearly.
16 Q And each person was supposed to make their own individual
17 decisions? Is that how it was going to work?
18 A In the moment?
19 Q You tell me, how is it going to work? What did you tell
20 them at the briefing?
21 A Well, I told -- can we go back to the whiteboard, and I'll
22 go down and explain each point?
23 Q I'm asking you about this line where it says, "Don't shoot
24 unless life in -- is in danger, agents." I want to know what
25 your directions were to your team on that point.
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1 A It was pretty much that. Do not shoot somebody unless
2 life is in danger. If cops show up and they want to arrest
3 you, they can do that. You can't shoot them to stop them from
4 arresting you. But if somebody that's not in uniform, that
5 doesn't announce them -- announce themselves, just -- or Bill,
6 who -- or -- or Aaron, just jumps out and starts blazing away,
7 then I -- you --
8 Q So --
9 A -- got no choice. You -- you -- you shoot them to stop
10 them. And then --
11 Q We're talking about KJNP. Right?
12 A Yeah.
13 Q Did you think Bill Fulton was going to show up disguised
14 as a little old lady and be blazing away at you?
15 A No, I didn't think that.
16 Q The second line from the bottom says, "Local kill not
17 okay."
18 A Yes.
19 Q What does that mean?
20 A That was to -- well, no kill at all was okay, unless life
21 was in danger, as it says up above there. But "Local kill not
22 okay," these were just talking points. And the point there was
23 if we got into an armed conflict with our neighbors, with --
24 with locals, with anybody from here, that would just devastate
25 all the progress we'd been trying to make towards having them
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1 be more respectful and --
2 Q So there was a blanket rule, you cannot kill local law
3 enforcement. Is that right?
4 A I -- here we're going on about hypotheticals. If -- if
5 they're --
6 Q No, you tell me, what was your direction to your security
7 team about "Local kill not okay"?
8 A My direction was to emphasize to them how absolutely
9 horrible it would be to kill somebody from your own town. If
10 some --
11 Q And then --
12 A -- fight-picking yahoo from another town just jumps out
13 and starts blasting at you, that's a little -- I mean, that's
14 bad too, if you have to kill them. But, man, killing somebody
15 from your own town? I was just emphasizing that, "Guys, that's
16 just not us, that's just not okay. Don't -- if there's any way
17 to avoid it." That's just -- I guess I -- I care about
18 everybody, but people from my own town I care about more. And
19 that's what that means.
20 Q And so then we move to the next line, where it says,
21 "Agent only if life danger." That's a reference to federal
22 agents. Right? Or is it anybody, federal and state and local?
23 A I would -- I would think that would be the -- the DEA guys
24 that I'd been warned about.
25 Q The DEA being the Drug Enforcement Administration?
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1 A Yeah.
2 Q How are you -- I mean, how were your men supposed to tell
3 who was who that night?
4 A Well, they're supposed to ask them.
5 Q How are you going to do that?
6 A Verbally.
7 Q So you've got to stop them first, right? You set up a
8 security checkpoint, right, that night?
9 A I think that is an -- an inaccurate characterization --
10 Q Well --
11 A -- as lights in the parking lot outside the door.
12 Q You're saying that they're supposed to ask them first
13 before shooting them. How are they going to ask them?
14 A You're adding words.
15 Q You said that they weren't supposed to shoot them if
16 they're local, right? Local kill's not okay.
17 A You asking me how they would know they're agents.
18 Q Let me finish my question. I said "Local kill not okay,"
19 I asked you how they're supposed to know that. You said
20 they're supposed to ask. How are they going to ask them?
21 A "What's up, buddy?"
22 Q And they need to ask them, because they might not be able
23 to tell by the way they're dressed, right?
24 A There's not going to be any problem with anybody, unless
25 they just show up shooting.
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1 Q What about local agents, federal agents like Agent
2 Sutherland, who are from Fairbanks? What was your direction to
3 your security team on people like that?
4 A I did not give people directions based on who might show
5 up. I gave people directions based on the conduct of anybody.
6 If -- if anybody was just blazing away with obvious intent to
7 kill at the moment, then do what you've got to do to stop them
8 and try to use nonlethal force first.
9 Q Well, that's not true. You have "local kill" right there,
10 right? They're -- you're obviously drawing a distinction
11 between local and feds, right?
12 A I already gave you an answer on local kills, and it means
13 that I have a special compassion for the law enforcement in
14 Fairbanks, that I disagree with and are intellectual opponents.
15 It would break my heart to kill one of them, even in self-
16 defense. That's why I fled the country, to prevent Bill from
17 doing it.
18 Q And you can have that special exception because you're the
19 commander, right?
20 A Think everybody should have that --
21 Q Well, you're the one making the rules for that night,
22 right?
23 A What do you mean, the -- a special exception --
24 Q Well, let's go back to --
25 A -- because I'm the commander?
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1 Q Let's go back to -- photo at Exhibit 139. You said those
2 were the points that you were making on that whiteboard, right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Because you're the commander, right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And at the bottom, it says -- there's a reference to
7 "plainclothes people." Right?
8 A At number --
9 Q The bottom, the -- 13. "Plainclothes," right? You're
10 referring to law enforcement who are in plainclothes. Right?
11 A Yeah. I don't -- again, this is somebody's notes on what
12 I was saying. But plain -- it looks like it says,
13 "Plainclothes get nonlethal first" -- that's -- (indiscernible)
14 out. I don't know what plainclothes get.
15 Q Let's -- I didn't ask you that. Let's go to Exhibit 446,
16 page 10. You see where it says in the middle of the page, "If
17 an agent draws down on Schaeffer, Marti, or Judge Bartels,
18 shoot him"? Do you see that?
19 A Can you -- oh, yeah -- yeah -- yeah, I see that. I see --
20 MR. TRAVERSO: Can that --
21 THE WITNESS: -- what you're talking about.
22 MR. TRAVERSO: Can I have some clarification? Is this
23 KJNP or is this something else?
25 Q At the top of the page there, it says, "9 p.m., KJNP,"
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1 doesn't it?
3 BY MS. LAMOUREUX:
4 Q Do you see that? The top left-hand corner?
5 THE COURT: It doesn't show on the screen, counsel.
6 MS. LAMOUREUX: I think it might still show on his
7 individual monitor there.
8 BY MS. LAMOUREUX:
9 Q Anyways, it says, "If an agent draws down on Schaeffer,
10 Marti, or Judge Bartels, shoot him." Do you see that halfway
11 down the page?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And right before that it says, "Do not shoot any locals."
14 Right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And then at the bottom it says, "Agents," colon, "try not
17 to kill," dash, "bodily stop. Use grenades," dash, "to stop."
18 Do you see that?
19 A Yes.
20 Q So you're going to use grenades -- you're going to try not
21 to kill agents. Right?
22 A Very hard, yes.
23 Q But if the situation rises, you might need to. Right?
24 A Yep.
25 Q And then you're going to use grenades --
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1 A Well -- well --
2 Q You're going to use grenades to stop them, right? You're
3 going to try to use grenades to stop them, right?
4 A Yes. Not real grenades. Those would be CS or OC or
5 some -- or hornet's nests or something besides -- that's not
6 going to kill you.
7 Q Right. The plan was to use hornet's nests that night,
8 right?
9 A I believe some people had those, yeah.
10 Q Well, Coleman did, right?
11 A I can't say for sure.
12 Q Well, you heard the recording in this room when he was in
13 the bail hearing and he said he had his AR loaded with the 37-
14 millimeter launcher and the hornet's nest rounds. Right?
15 A Correct. Well, then I would -- I would -- I bel -- he's
16 an honest guy, so probably, yes.
17 Q You were at the staging at his house, weren't you?
18 A No.
19 Q This was all your idea, wasn't it?
20 A Parts of it, yeah.
21 Q Well, when we went through that security team briefing
22 board, you said those were your points. Right?
23 A Oh, yeah, those were my points.
24 Q You're the commander. Right?
25 A If you obey my orders, then that makes me your commander.
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1 If you don't, then I'm not.
2 Q So you're not taking any responsibility for your
3 subordinates who don't follow your orders?
4 A Oh, I am. That's why the -- well, if they don't follow my
5 orders, then they're not my subordinates.
6 Q Well --
7 A If they follow my orders, I'm going to tell them to be
8 temperate and don't --
9 Q Which one is it?
10 A What?
11 Q You're the commander.
12 A Yes.
13 Q You're responsible for them, aren't you?
14 A I'm responsible for the moral propriety of the orders that
15 I give. And their oath is to follow orders that are consistent
16 with their conscience.
17 Q And you're the one who said, "KJNP is a go." Right?
18 Let's look at Exhibit --
19 A Can we look at that?
20 Q Yeah.
21 A Yeah, I'm not -- I don't --
22 Q Exhibit 792.
23 A -- what's that mean?
24 Q Well, they're your words. With Coleman Barney there on
25 November 23rd, 2010, "KJNP is a go." That's your text, right?
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1 A Yep.
2 Q And the real concern was these federal agents. Right?
3 A Well, there was two concerns.
4 Q The real concern were the federal agents, though, right?
5 A Well, because one concern's real, it doesn't make the
6 other concern fake.
7 Q Tell me what your other concern is?
8 A Aaron Bennett lives just down the street and he's best
9 pals with Bill Fulton and had some comments to me about killing
10 me. And, in fact, in the discovery there's -- that's
11 mentioned. And --
12 Q So --
13 A -- so we're worried about -- about Aaron Bennett and
14 this -- these feds that wanted to instigate a violent conflict.
15 Q You said Coleman Barney's an honest guy, right?
16 A He's an honest man.
17 Q When he testified at the bail hearing and he was asked who
18 was his concern -- who were they concerned was going to come
19 try to kill Schaeffer Cox, he said federal agents. Right?
20 A Yes. That --
21 Q He didn't mention Bill Fulton, did he?
22 A That doesn't --
23 Q He didn't mention Bill Fulton, did he?
24 A I don't -- I don't know. I don't -- I'll take your word
25 for that.
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1 Q You've seen the transcript, haven't you?
2 A Of the bail hearing? I've not read the transcript of the
3 bail hearing.
4 Q Your attorney didn't give that to you?
5 A I got 10 terabytes of discovery. I read a lot and forgot
6 a -- we got snowed.
7 Q So if he -- if Coleman Barney didn't say Bill Fulton, was
8 he lying?
12 Q Coleman Barney didn't mention Aaron Bennett either, did
13 he?
14 A That doesn't amount to a lie. He told you the truth,
15 that -- or that agents --
16 Q The concern was federal agents, right? That's the truth,
17 right?
18 A That was a concern.
19 Q And you heard Gary Brockman on the stand here say that
20 federal agents were the concern, right?
21 A He said they were a -- a concern. He might have said "the
22 concern."
23 Q He didn't mention Bill Fulton at all, did he?
24 A I'm not denying that we were worried about these guys.
25 Q He didn't mention Bill Fulton at all, did he?
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1 A He did not mention Bill Fulton.
2 Q And he didn't mention Aaron Bennett, did he?
3 A No.
4 Q And if we pull up Exhibit 139 again, it doesn't say Bill
5 Fulton anywhere on this whiteboard, does it?
6 A Well, I guess the --
7 Q It doesn't say Bill Fulton anywhere on this whiteboard,
8 does it?
9 A No, it does -- no, it does not.
10 Q Doesn't say Aaron Bennett on that whiteboard anywhere,
11 does it?
12 A No.
13 Q Or on any of those other notes about the KJNP security
14 team detail, right?
15 A No. But it was talked about.
16 Q So your security team had to be willing to kill, right,
17 and they had to be armed? Right?
18 A Somebody who was not willing to kill could have certainly
19 been on the security team.
20 Q They needed to follow your orders, right?
21 A They could reject the ones they don't like.
22 Q And then what would that make them? Insubordinates, or
23 what would that make them? That would get them decommissioned,
24 wouldn't it?
25 A It would make them conscientious objector.
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1 Q Well, you've decommissioned people, haven't you?
2 A For being drunk or pushing violence, yes.
3 Q So your security detail was armed that night, right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Barney was carrying his rifle with the 37-millimeter
6 launcher loaded with the hornet's nest round, right?
7 A That's what I've been told. And I have no reason to -- to
8 doubt that.
9 Q And we heard the -- the recordings from one of those
10 briefings where you were telling Mr. Olson that you were going
11 to be loaded with the hornet's nest rounds that night, right?
12 A I believe so.
13 Q That's when you made the comment about the hornet's nest,
14 "fold you up like a pretzel." Right?
15 A They folded Johnny Knoxville up like a pretzel.
16 Q Let's go ahead and listen to that, Exhibit 2-03.
17 MS. HADEN: I'm sorry, counsel, what was the --
18 MS. LAMOUREUX: 2-03. It's already been admitted.
19 MS. HADEN: Yes.
20 03:51:14
21 (Audio played)
22 03:59:56
24 Q The people who were at that briefing is a different crew
25 than the briefing that you talked about before. Right?
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1 A I think what actually happened is J.R. Olson --
2 Q It was a different crew. Right?
3 A Yeah.
5 Clerk, please.
6 THE WITNESS: Actually, I think it was the same crew,
7 different, like followup or something.
8 BY MS. LAMOUREUX:
9 Q So who was present at that meeting, the one that --
10 recording that we just listened to?
11 A I heard J.R. Olson and I wasn't able to identify the --
12 the laughing voices.
13 Q Was Judge Bartels there?
14 A Could have been. He -- he was out at KJNP, so --
15 Q And you could have told all of them about Bill Fulton or
16 Aaron Bennett. Right?
17 A Not without it getting back to Aaron Bennett and Bill
18 Fulton, which I didn't want them to know.
19 Q So you could have, right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q But you didn't?
22 A No.
23 Q You've listened to the -- to Mr. Olson's recordings in
24 this case, haven't you?
25 A I think I've listened to all of the recordings, but it was
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1 many months ago.
2 Q Lonnie Vernon was armed that night as well, right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And Gary Brockman was armed as well, right?
5 A As far as I know. I think he said he had his gun in the
6 truck or something. I'm sure he -- I'm sure he was armed, but
7 I don't know the particulars of that.
8 Q You saw Lonnie Vernon that night, didn't you?
9 A If I -- if I saw him, it was pretty brief. I just want to
10 be careful about making assumptions and talking about other
11 people. I -- I believe that they were -- that they were there.
12 Q I mean, as the commander, you'd want to know that your
13 security team was actually present when you arrived. Right?
14 A Coleman was in charge of that part of it, and I trusted
15 him to do a very good job. And I didn't -- I wasn't messing
16 with the details.
17 Q You were armed that night too. Right?
18 A I don't -- I don't know. I -- I usually am. But I'm not
19 sure if I was that night.
20 Q Don't you remember a conversation with Bonnie Carricker
21 where she told you to go put your firearm -- take it outside?
22 She asked you if you were carrying. Remember that?
23 A I remember Bonnie Carricker talking about that, but I
24 don't remember the interaction between me and Bonnie from that
25 night. But if I went with what Bonnie said, yeah.
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1 Q And that was actually in violation of your conditions.
2 Right?
3 A Yes. I was -- I was more --
4 Q You --
5 A -- scared of Bill than I was of violating my conditions.
6 Q You were prohibited from carrying at that point. Right?
7 A Yes, by a -- a bail condition. And I was -- I was
8 disobeying that.
9 Q You didn't want to follow Judge Kauvar's orders. Right?
10 A Not if it meant me not able to shoot back if I had a run-
11 in with Bill.
12 Q Bill Fulton from Anchorage, right? We're talking about
13 the same Bill Fulton?
14 A Who comes up here a lot, up -- up to Fairbanks a lot.
15 Q You explained to Sam Barney how a hornet's nest round
16 works, right?
17 A Sam Barney?
19 A No.
20 Q You didn't read that transcript either?
21 A Are you -- do you mean Coleman Barney?
22 Q Sam Barney.
23 A I don't recall that, not with Sam Barney, Coleman's
24 brother.
25 Q Once Coleman told you that it was safe and clear for you
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1 to come to KJNP, that's what you did. Right?
2 A Yeah.
3 Q You waited for his order saying it was okay to come.
4 Right?
5 A Boy, I can't remember the details of that. I -- I -- I
6 probably just texted him, "Hey, we're on our way." That --
7 that's probably -- that would -- that's what I would guess
8 would have happened.
9 Q Let's look at Exhibit 792, page 2, please. If we could
10 have the lights, Madam Clerk. On November 23rd, 2010, there's
11 a series of texts between you and Coleman. Right?
12 A Yep.
13 Q See that line at 5:21 p.m., when he says, "No bees"?
14 A Yeah.
15 Q What did you understand that to mean?
16 A I don't -- I don't know what that means. I -- I'm sure I
17 knew at the time. But I -- I can't remember -- can't remember
18 now.
19 Q Well, right before that he says, "I'm here. Do I need to
20 let who's living here know?" Right? That's at 4:56 p.m.
21 A Yeah.
22 Q He's at KJNP. Right?
23 A That's an assumption, but I bet it's a safe one.
24 Q And then he texts, "No bees," which is actually a
25 reference to federal agents. Right?
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1 A Again, perhap -- I mean, you've probably done more
2 research on this than -- I'm not -- I'm --
3 Q You talk -- don't you have conversations about "stirring
4 up the beehive" or "shaking the beehive," or something like
5 that?
6 A Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to take -- that -- that
7 jibes with that context.
8 Q Then there's an -- a message that says, "I just got your
9 text. No, just keep an eye out. They are all cool." That's
10 what you say to him, right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And then you say, "Have had two cops lurking around me
13 outside Safeway. May be nothing." What's that about?
14 A May be nothing.
15 Q Your response is, "May be nothing"?
16 A Yeah.
17 Q What about that "Have had two cops lurking around me
18 outside Safeway"?
19 A You know, you'd prob -- well, apparently it was nothing.
20 But -- but, really, you should probably ask Coleman if you're
21 wanting to know what he meant by that. When he -- when I got
22 that, if -- if I received that text, it would -- it pretty
23 much -- I just take it for face value. He's had two cops
24 lurking around him outside Safeway.
25 Q No, that --
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1 A May be nothing.
2 Q That's your text.
3 A Oh, I sent that to him?
4 Q Outgoing. Outgoing --
5 A Oh.
6 Q -- "have had."
7 A You're right. Well, I must have forgot about that.
8 Q And then he asks you, "Which Safeway?" And you say,
9 "University."
10 A "University," correct.
11 Q Are you on your way to KJNP at this point or where in
12 Fairbanks are you? Where's the University Safeway in relation
13 to KJNP?
14 A That would be on -- that would be between -- that would be
15 en route from my house to KJNP, would be the University
16 Safeway.
17 Q So you went to KJNP straight from your house?
18 A I guess I'm making an assumption again. I'm making a lot
19 of assumptions here, because I --
20 Q You tell me. You were there. You tell me what happened
21 that night? How'd you get to KJNP?
22 A I drove.
23 Q From?
24 A Town. And I'm -- I would assume it was from my house.
25 Q You don't remember?
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1 A I'm assuming it was from my house --
2 Q Tell me what --
3 A You made --
4 Q Tell me what you remember. I don't want you to assume,
5 Mr. Cox.
6 A You made me doubt.
7 Q I don't want you to assume. Just tell us what you
8 remember.
9 A As near as I can remember, I went from my house to KJNP.
10 Q And did you stop at Coleman Barney's at any point?
11 A No, he lives past KJNP.
12 Q And who did you drive to KJNP with?
13 A Marti and Bartel, Judge Bartel.
14 Q You didn't have a security team detail with you?
15 A Don't think so. Think they were out there.
16 Q So you say, "Have had two cops lurking around me," and you
17 tell him it's University, "on my way to house." Do you
18 remember what house you're referring to there?
19 A Looking at the times -- again, I'm reconstructing this,
20 so -- so bear with me. I'm putting clues together. Perhaps I
21 went to the University safety -- Safeway and then I went to my
22 house. And then I went to KJNP. I'm -- I'm doing the best I
23 can on --
24 Q At --
25 A -- remembering the errands I was running two years ago.
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1 Q Okay. And so then at 8:09 Coleman texts you, "We're
2 almost set up. Call, let me know when you're close to the
3 rendezvous." Right?
4 A Yeah.
5 Q And then you get another one. As you're texting him
6 you're getting closer, you get one at 8:29 and he tells you to
7 wait there. Right?
8 A Yeah.
9 Q And then eventually you arrive at KJNP and you go inside
10 and appear on television. Right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And that's with Marti and Judge Bartels and Ken Thesing.
13 Right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And while your private army was outside guarding, guarding
16 you, securing the perimeter, you were inside, on TV, telling
17 people that soulless -- federal soulless assassins were out to
18 kill you. Right?
19 A I would have said that different, but nothing that you
20 said is technically inaccurate.
21 Q And all of that was okay because you were living by your
22 own set of rule. Right?
23 MR. DOOLEY: Objection. Argumentative.
24 THE COURT: I think he may answer.
25 THE WITNESS: There is one set of rules that is
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1 universally applicable to all mankind. And I live by that.
2 BY MS. LAMOUREUX:
3 Q You don't live by federal statutes. Right?
4 A Whenever they do not come into conflict with right and
5 wrong, I comply.
6 MS. LAMOUREUX: Could we have the lights, Madam Clerk?
7 BY MS. LAMOUREUX:
8 Q By the way, on your appearance at KJNP that night,
9 there -- you never mentioned Bill Fulton or Aaron Bennett.
10 Right?
11 A No. I was trying to play nice with them. They're both
12 scary guys.
13 Q So you live by your own set of rules. You were telling us
14 about that.
15 A That's what you said. That is not what I said. I'm not a
16 law unto myself. That's totally inaccurate projection for me.
17 Q You don't live by Alaska statutes. Right?
18 A I comply with Alaska statutes.
19 Q You just told us that you were carrying a firearm that
20 night that would have been violation of your probation
21 conditions or your pretrial release conditions. Right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q You just want to be left alone, right? That's what you
24 told the jury yesterday?
25 A I think that's an all-American value that I -- yes, I --
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1 I -- I like being left alone.
2 Q And you were issuing your own restraining orders. Right?
3 A I think we might have -- we might have filed some stuff to
4 that effect.
5 Q Exhibit 194, page 14. And then page 15 and page 16. That
6 a -- that's the sovereign Judge Bartels. Is that right?
7 A Yeah, he's -- he's just a judge within the -- the Assembly
8 Post group and that -- that kind of thing.
9 Q And that's -- I mean, that's your restraining order.
10 Right?
11 A I think that's pertaining to me. I didn't -- I didn't
12 write that.
13 Q But you served it on people?
14 A I don't know if I -- if I'm the one that served it, but
15 I'm sure we got that delivered.
16 Q Ken Thesing did a lot of the service for you, right?
17 A Yeah, he did some pro -- some serve -- process servings.
18 Q A good -- what was he? Was he a major? He was a major,
19 right?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q Yeah. A good major. Right?
22 A He's a good man.
23 Q Well, you weren't going to abide by the judge's orders
24 either, right? I mean, you're talking about living by the set
25 of natural rules that you were talking about. Right?
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1 A Yes. Right and wrong, natural law.
2 Q So when Judge Kauvar told you about your -- who -- your
3 next hearing date, you told her you were going to treat it like
4 an invitation to a Tupperware party. Right?
5 A I -- I said that.
7 A I did show up, though, for that. I just wanted them to
8 discuss -- discuss jurisdictional things.
9 Q You also talked about going to court and saying, "If you
10 touch me, we're going to kill you?"
11 A Think I said that. That was a embarrassing comment. I'm
12 sure -- (indiscernible) embarrassed, but I said that.
13 Q Embarrassed now?
14 A I was probably embarrassed a few seconds after I said it,
15 but definitely embarrassed now.
16 Q But you were the family militia. Right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Let's talk about the grand jury de jure. Before you met
19 with Fulton and those other folks in Fairbanks in June in 2010,
20 the Alaska grand jury de jure voted and produced a document
21 which you then delivered to Ft. Wainwright. Right?
22 A I've seen this in -- in exhibits, and I can't answer any
23 questions on that. I -- or I don't know if I can answer all of
24 your questions on that. That was something that --
25 Q I --
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1 A -- that --
2 Q My question -- let me re --
3 A Okay.
4 Q Let me restate my question.
5 A Okay. Thank you.
6 Q Before you met with Fulton and Zerbe and Jeremy Baker in
7 June 2010 in Fairbanks, the Alaska grand jury de jure voted and
8 produced a document which you then brought to Ft. Wainwright.
9 Right?
10 A I don't think that was before. I don't know if that
11 was --
12 Q Let me go ahead --
13 A -- be -- it was right around the same time that we met
14 with Fulton, and it was a -- kind of a really tense week there.
15 It was -- it was in there somewhere.
16 Q Let me go ahead and show you what we have marked for
17 identification as Government Exhibit 878. Do you see that
18 document there?
19 A Yes.
20 Q That's the document that the Alaska grand jury de jure
21 voted and produced. Right?
22 A Yeah. I see our names on it, but I don't see my -- I'm
23 just going off of what it says there.
24 Q It's signed, right?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q And it's dated, right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q What's the date?
4 A The 11th of -- the 11th of June.
5 Q Of 2010?
6 A Of 2010.
8 THE WITNESS: I can't identify that. I can just tell
9 you about it. But I don't have any personal knowledge of it.
10 MR. TRAVERSO: Object to it. He has no personal
11 knowledge of it.
12 MR. DOOLEY: Objection. Lack of foundation; relevance.
13 THE COURT: The foundation is lacking.
15 Q So what are the names on there, on that document?
16 A Seth Cox, Marti Cox, and Schaeffer Cox.
17 Q No, sorry. The Alaska grand jury de jure names, right.
18 A Oh, the -- the people that signed it?
19 Q Right, the Alaska grand jury de jure people.
20 A That signed it. Martin Avery Nichols and Beverly Ann
21 Jenkins.
22 Q And you were a member of the Alaska grand jury de jure.
23 Right?
24 A Yeah, I was -- I was kind of involve -- involved in that.
25 Q You were the special district criminal justice -- you
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1 were -- or that was a -- sorry. You were the active duty juror
2 position -- your position was active jury juror, right? Does
3 that sound right?
4 A Yeah. I mean, I didn't really take this all that
5 seriously, everybody signing everybody up for, you know, to
6 wear all these different hats, and --
7 Q And your committees were special districts and criminal
8 justice. Right?
9 A That sounds right.
10 Q And your phone number is 590 -- what is it --
11 A Are you asking me?
12 Q Agent Sutherland's going to show you the document.
13 (Side conversation)
14 Q So on the third page there, you see your name?
15 A On the third page?
16 Q Yep. Oh, I'm sorry. Your -- yours is already flipped. I
17 was starting from the beginning. You're looking at, I believe,
18 at the sixth page, with the names and the signatures there? Is
19 that the page you're --
20 A Is that --
21 Q -- looking at? You're looking at --
22 A Yeah, it's on --
23 Q -- yeah.
24 A -- the page that --
25 Q Yep.
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COX - CROSS
1 A -- is in the same font as the "26 of 79."
2 Q So your name is about one, two, three, four, five, six,
3 seven, eight, nine, ten down. Right?
4 A Oh, yeah. I didn't see it because there's my full name,
5 Francis August --
6 Q Yeah, and then --
7 A -- Schaeffer Cox.
8 Q -- your signature's there. Right?
9 A Yep.
10 Q With your S.C. signature, right?
11 A Yep.
12 Q Okay. You're a member of the Alaska grand jury de jure.
13 Right?
14 A Yep.
15 Q Okay. And then if we look back on the first -- if we flip
16 back to the beginning of the document --
17 A This document that I've got stapled together here?
18 Q Yep.
19 A Okay.
20 Q If you go to the third page. The third page.
21 A Yep.
22 Q There's your name again. Right?
23 A Yep.
24 Q Okay. So the folks who signed this document here, the
25 protective order --
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COX - CROSS
1 A Yeah.
2 Q -- are members of the Alaska grand jury de jure. Right?
3 A Correct.
4 Q And you knew that they had voted and produced a document
5 for you to bring to Ft. Wainwright. Right?
6 A I knew that they were doing something like that, but it
7 was not my -- I was -- I didn't have any energy to try to
8 figure that out. I was focused on other things. But Ken was
9 doing that kind of -- that kind of stuff.
10 Q Well, you actually brought the document to Ft. Wainwright.
11 Right?
12 A I didn't. If it was at Ft. Wainwright, either Ken or
13 somebody that was with us brought it.
14 Q When you went to base -- on base, you didn't bring any
15 documents with you?
16 A I didn't -- there was a whole gaggle of us.
17 MS. LAMOUREUX: The government offers 878 again.
18 MR. DOOLEY: Lack of foundation.
19 MR. TRAVERSO: He has no personal knowledge. Object to
20 foundation as well.
21 THE COURT: Do I have a copy of this?
22 MS. LAMOUREUX: My apologies, Your Honor. We only have
23 it loaded elec -- oh.
24 MS. HADEN: Your Honor, I would like to add an
25 objection for relevance.
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COX - CROSS
1 MS. LAMOUREUX: Mr. Cox has put all of this in issue by
2 claiming that the base gave him asylum based on his visit to
3 the provost marshals. This is also relevant --
4 THE COURT: Just a minute. I think 878 may be
5 admitted.
8 Clerk.
9 BY MS. LAMOUREUX:
10 Q Okay, so the top -- there's a fax machine date, it looks
11 like, on June 11th, 2010, and then the document itself is
12 signed and dated June 11th, 2010. Right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And it's a protective order from the Alaska grand jury de
15 jure. Right?
16 A Yes. Like I say, I can only testify to what it -- what it
17 says on there, but that's what it says.
18 Q Well, tell the jury a little bit about what the grand jury
19 de jure is.
20 A It was another, like, sovereignty movement group that
21 spent a lot of time doing legal research and trying to uncover
22 our roots and our -- our legal history and -- and it kind of
23 did a lot of spinning its wheels and amounted to thousands and
24 thousands of emails and -- and blogs and websites and -- and
25 things like that. And -- do you want me to keep going?
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COX - CROSS
1 Q Is it really any different from the Alaska Assembly Post?
2 A Yeah, they're kind of warring factions, going to -- trying
3 the same thing -- well, not warring, but kind of inviting
4 bickering factions, trying to do the same thing.
5 Q Did they sue people in common-law courts?
6 A Grand -- the de jure grand jury?
7 Q Yeah.
8 A I don't know. I didn't learn much about it. I kind of
9 flaked out early on and didn't put much effort into it after
10 the first month or so of it just kind of going nowhere.
11 Q You didn't ask them for this protective order?
12 A I don't -- I was asking anybody and everybody for help. I
13 know I told them what we were -- what we were doing, but I
14 don't -- I don't recall --
15 Q So did you ask for the protective order from them?
16 A Again, you're -- you're -- you're inviting me into a lot
17 of speculation here, and I just don't want to -- I don't want
18 to --
19 Q So your answer is you don't remember? I'm -- I don't want
20 you to speculate. Just tell us what you remember.
21 A Oh, okay. I don't -- I don't remember. I could speculate
22 as to what this is and why -- where that came from and I could
23 probably be pretty accurate with that, but I don't -- I don't
24 think that's probably what --
25 Q Well, the --
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COX - CROSS
1 A -- I should do.
2 Q So the protective order reads, "Hereby orders -- the
3 Alaska grand jury de jure hereby orders that Schaeffer Cox,
4 Marti Cox, and Seth Cox be at all times accompanied by armed
5 personnel from the office of the provost marshal, who shall
6 protect them by all appropriate means from arrest, detention,
7 or other injury whatsoever, especially the actions of the
8 Alaska courts or their officers operating outside of their
9 jurisdiction." That's what it says, right?
10 A That's what it says.
11 Q And you can't remember when you went on base whether you
12 brought a document with you or not. Is that your testimony?
13 A My testimony is that I -- no, I can remember that I didn't
14 bring a document in my hand. But I can't remember what other
15 people did. What -- what I'm trying to say is I think Ken
16 Thesing brought this with him and gave it to the -- to the
17 provost marshals, but that was a sideline and I was pretty much
18 focused on getting my son out of harm's way.
19 Q Well, so he went with you to Ft. Wainwright --
20 A Yes.
21 Q -- right, Ken Thesing did. And Rick Zickma did. Right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And the purpose was to serve the Army with a writ? Right?
24 A No, the purpose was to ask them for help. And this
25 line -- this lines up with that. But my --
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COX - CROSS
1 Q And you --
2 A I'm just saying my visit was --
3 Q You and --
4 A -- saying, "Hey, guys, please help."
5 Q You and Ken Thesing --
6 MR. TRAVERSO: Let her --
7 BY MS. LAMOUREUX:
8 Q -- were wearing body armor, weren't you, when you went on
9 base?
10 A I can't speak for Ken Thesing, but I know I wear my soft
11 under-the-shirt armor all the time. So yes.
12 Q And you were wearing a -- you were carrying a loaded
13 weapon. Right?
14 A Not on post.
15 Q And the chief of police met with you, right?
16 A What was his name? I remember Greenleaf.
17 Q The chief of police met with you, right?
18 A Think -- I don't think so. I think that was the guy we
19 were waiting for and had to leave before he showed up.
20 Q So you met with someone?
21 A Yeah. Uh-huh (affirmative).
22 Q And you think his name was Greenleaf?
23 A I think -- and his name was Major Greenleaf.
24 Q And he listened to your concerns, didn't he?
25 A Yes.
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COX - CROSS
1 Q And you told him that there was an inevitable
2 confrontation brewing between the government and your
3 followers. Right?
4 A I told him that.
5 Q And you told him that that confrontation would result in
6 bloodshed. Right?
7 A I can't remember my exact words, but I can -- I can say
8 that that was my -- that's what I was afraid of.
9 Q And isn't it true that you told him that cops and judges
10 were among those people facing that impending bloodshed?
11 A Again, I don't remember my exact words, but I know that
12 that was one of my fears. So words to that effect would not
13 surprise me. But I -- I can't say for -- for sure what I said
14 that day with the specificity that you're looking for. I --
15 I'm really trying to not -- I'm not trying to be shifty, I'm --
16 I'm just trying to be honest.
17 Q You knew that the grand jury was working on that document,
18 didn't you?
19 A Yeah, but I -- yes.
20 Q You've listened to the recording of the meeting with
21 Fulton in June of 2010. Right?
22 A Where?
23 Q Your meeting with Fulton in June of 2010 at Pike's.
24 You've listened to that, haven't you?
25 A I thought there was not a -- I -- I thought we didn't have
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COX - CROSS
1 any recording of that. Are you sure we have a recording of
2 that?
3 Q In your meeting with Fulton, you talk about the -- about
4 de jure -- the grand jury de jure warrants. Right?
5 A In June of 2010, I didn't have much understanding of that
6 or even really what that meant. That came later for me. So I
7 don't think I would have been talking about that at that time.
8 Q Did you talk with Bill Fulton about the grand jury de jure
9 warrants?
10 A Bill -- Bill Fulton --
11 Q At Pike's. Did you --
12 A At Pike's.
13 Q Yes.
14 A That was discussed, but I kind of just listened and asked
15 a question or two here and there.
16 Q You haven't seen Mr. Port's transcript of that recording?
17 A I've seen the transcript. Well, no, no, wait a minute. I
18 have not seen the transcript of the -- of the recording that
19 was made at -- I have not seen the transcript of the recording
20 from Pike's.
21 Q Tell me what transcript you've seen, then.
22 A Okay. When Derek Espeland, I think, the FBI agent, went
23 to go meet with Bill Fulton at his shop, Drop Zone, Bill Fulton
24 secretly recorded Derek Espeland, the FBI agent's, meeting.
25 And they were sitting there shooting the breeze and talking
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COX - CROSS
1 about getting rid of me and stuff, and, "Oh, here, let me play
2 you the -- let me play you this recording." And they're
3 whizzing through the recording at Pike's Landing. And so the
4 transcript that I have read is of the FBI and Bill Fulton
5 yucking it up and listening to snippets of that meeting.
6 That's what I have --
7 Q And --
8 A -- a transcript of.
9 Q And during that recording, we can hear you talking about
10 grand jury de jure warrants with Bill Fulton at Pike's that
11 night in June 2010. Right?
12 A If you're going to reference this, I'd like to show the
13 whole transcript, because you're making it sound like it's my
14 idea. And it was coming from Bill, and you can see on those
15 transcripts that I am --
16 MS. LAMOUREUX: The government --
17 THE WITNESS: -- confused as hell.
18 MS. LAMOUREUX: -- requests that the Court strike the
19 defendant's response.
20 THE COURT: The witness' last answer is stricken and
21 you should disregard it as not responsive.
23 Q You talked with Bill Fulton that night at Pike's about the
24 grand jury de jure warrants. Right?
25 A That was a -- that -- that was a -- a topic.
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COX - VOIR DIRE
1 Q Yeah, so you knew about it?
2 A That was first I'd heard about this. I was -- I was just
3 listening and learning. I -- I didn't know what he was talking
4 about.
5 Q The government has some clips it would like to offer
6 through this witness. It might be appropriate to do it outside
7 the presence of the jury.
8 THE COURT: They probably want to take a hike for a few
9 minutes anyway. You can be excused for a minute, all of you.
10 (Jury not present at 4:36 p.m.)
11 MS. LAMOUREUX: The government has an exhibit it has
12 identified as Exhibit 934. And it -- there are three clips
13 that we would like to offer, 934-1, 2, and 3.
14 VOIR DIRE
16 Q You were -- you've testified you were in a meeting with
17 Bill Fulton at Pike's --
18 A Yes.
19 Q -- in June 2010. Right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And there were other individuals present as well. Right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Who were they?
24 A Les Zerbe and Jeremy Baker.
25 MS. LAMOUREUX: May I play 934, clip 1, for the
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COX - VOIR DIRE
1 witness, Your Honor?
2 THE COURT: Yeah. You're -- to identify it?
3 MS. LAMOUREUX: To identify it.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 04:36:29
6 (Audio played)
7 04:36:56
8 MS. LAMOUREUX: Now I'll play clip 2 from Exhibit 934.
9 04:37:03
10 (Audio played)
11 04:38:07
12 MS. LAMOUREUX: And then clip 3.
13 04:38:17
14 (Audio played)
15 04:39:17
17 Q Do you recognize the voices on those clips you just heard?
18 A Yeah. I recognize my voice and I -- I think that's Bill
19 Fulton's voice.
20 Q And that's from that conversation you were having with him
21 about the de jure warrants and this protective order we were
22 just looking at in Exhibit 878?
23 A Say that again?
24 Q That's the conversation we were just talking about
25 earlier, about the de jure warrants. Right?
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COX - VOIR DIRE
1 A Yes.
2 Q And you're also referencing a protective order, right?
3 A Yeah. Yeah, I referenced the protect -- a protective
4 order.
6 MR. TRAVERSO: I believe that the snippet is very, very
7 narrow and that the whole recording should be played and be
8 part of the record, not just a very tiny -- it -- it's --
9 there's no -- it doesn't make any sense, because we don't know
10 what the full context of this meeting was based on that. It's
11 just taking it in isolation. Mr. Cox is responding to Mr.
12 Fulton's efforts here. And it doesn't have that full
13 representation.
14 My understanding is, is that the federal government, or
15 at least Mr. Fulton, destroyed the original recording in this
16 case. So we don't have the original recording.
17 MS. LAMOUREUX: The government is only offering this to
18 impeach Mr. Cox, because he just claimed that he didn't know
19 about the de jure warrants, he (indiscernible) from the
20 protective order. Here he is asking Mr. Fulton if he'll serve
21 the de jure warrants. He tells them that the de jure -- Alaska
22 grand jury de jure has been working as fast as they can, the
23 only reason that we're offering these minor clips.
24 MR. TRAVERSO: The recording that they're presenting is
25 not the original recording, and it is a -- it was a recording
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1 that Mr. Fulton, who has testified, stated that he did not
2 record it. It was destroyed and he was under the supervision
3 of another FBI agent. This is not the original recording. And
4 it's been cut. Mr. Fulton was recording also the authority of
5 the federal government, Your Honor. That is what he said.
6 THE COURT: Does the rest of this exist? You must have
7 clipped the clips from something.
8 MS. LAMOUREUX: We did. What exists is the agent with
9 Fulton listening -- having a conversation and listening to
10 portions of the recording. So the entire recording of the
11 agent and the -- and Mr. Fulton listening to clips exists. But
12 as Mr. Traverso indicates, the underlying meeting at Pike's
13 Landing, that entire recording in itself does not exist in its
14 full scope.
15 Mr. Fulton did have authority under law to record the
16 conversation because it was a consensual monitoring on his
17 part. But because it wasn't tasked as part of the FBI
18 investigation, the FBI did not retain a copy of the entire --
19 THE COURT: Well, my --
20 MS. LAMOUREUX: -- clip, but --
21 THE COURT: I guess my question is, what do you have
22 that hadn't been played that's a recording of Mr. Cox at this
23 meeting, Mr. Cox and others --
24 MS. LAMOUREUX: Well -- oh, well --
25 THE COURT: -- at this meeting?
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1 MS. LAMOUREUX: -- all of this is -- was provided to
2 defense counsel back in January, I believe, or December, once
3 we first became aware that this recording existed and explained
4 the situation to them. And then they went and had it
5 transcribed. We don't have a transcript of the -- but they
6 have a transcript, we understand. We don't have a copy of
7 that. But -- so they have a better sense, actually, honestly,
8 Your Honor, than I do in terms of what other -- where Mr. Cox's
9 voice appears elsewhere on the recording.
10 MR. TRAVERSO: It's so -- it's very, very difficult to
11 understand that recording, because you have two recordings, one
12 overlapping the other.
13 THE CLERK: You're too far from your mic.
14 MR. TRAVERSO: You have two recordings, one overlapping
15 the other, believe it or not. Mr. Fulton is recording this
16 meeting without -- apparently without -- it's hard to
17 understand. He's recording the meeting without the authority
18 of the federal government, yet he's there recording this
19 because, for whatever is -- for his own interest; I'm not sure.
20 But when you listen to the recording you hear overlapping
21 conversations and it's very difficult to understand. If you
22 want to know what the true meaning is, play the overlapping
23 recordings. That is what happened.
24 This is a deciphered -- this is something that we did
25 for our understanding of -- try to understand and piece it
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236
1 together. But if you play the original recording, then this
2 jury gets to understand what transpired. Because --
3 THE COURT: Well, I understand you're talking about
4 original recording. I understand that's the one --
6 THE COURT: -- that's not around.
7 MR. TRAVERSO: Well --
8 THE COURT: Or are you talking about the original
9 recording that had --
10 MR. TRAVERSO: There --
11 THE COURT: -- part of the -- I don't know what
12 recording you're talking about. There are two recordings
13 here --
14 MR. TRAVERSO: Right.
15 THE COURT: -- one of which is part of this exhibit.
16 MR. TRAVERSO: And --
17 THE COURT: And one that's something else is not
18 available, as I understand it.
19 MR. TRAVERSO: Right. And we don't have -- what we --
20 what we've received is overlapping conversations in a
21 recording, and apparently that was not allowed according to the
22 federal government. And that's why we asked for stuff, but
23 they told us that that was not permitted by them, so what you
24 have is Fulton -- Mr. Fulton recorded something without the
25 authority of the federal government, and there's an overlap of
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237
1 another recording, and then that recording was -- we requested
2 the original recordings. We requested this from the government
3 and we were told we couldn't have it.
4 MS. LAMOUREUX: The government wouldn't be in this
5 situation if Mr. Cox had just told the truth about the
6 conversation. We truly -- it's just a limited purpose of
7 impeaching him, because he said he didn't know anything about
8 these things.
9 THE COURT: Yeah, I understand that. What I don't know
10 is what else is on a recording somewhere that might make what
11 you propose to be more fair -- more fairly presented if there's
12 more presented. That's the basis of the objection. I don't
13 know what's available yet, so I don't know -- and I don't know
14 what it says. But when you play clips here and there, there's
15 always the question, is that in context a fair presentation.
16 And so I don't know what else is available, so I'm kind of
17 stuck on how to rule here.
18 MS. LAMOUREUX: I don't know the status of Rolly Port's
19 transcript, but perhaps they could provide that to the Court.
20 I don't know. But they did cross Mr. Fulton on this point when
21 he was on the stand, about him recording --
23 MS. LAMOUREUX: -- and destroying and --
24 THE COURT: Yeah. I think, if you have -- under
25 federal law, if you have one consent, that's enough. Not so
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1 under Washington law and I think not so under Alaska law. But
2 it is the federal court, and for federal evidentiary rulings
3 one consent is enough. So I don't think that's a -- an issue.
4 But I don't know what they have that -- and, you know,
5 Mr. Traverso, your objection says more ought to be played to be
6 fair. I don't know what you're proposing that should be played
7 to make it more fair, so I -- it's pretty hard for me --
8 MR. TRAVERSO: I think you need to ask --
9 THE COURT: -- to rule at.
10 MR. TRAVERSO: I think your question that you posed to
11 the court -- to the prosecution was a very good question.
12 Where's the recording? That's what we want. It has
13 overlapping recordings going on and conversations --
14 THE COURT: Well, there's two recordings.
15 MR. TRAVERSO: No, it's -- well, it's two people
16 recording, but we got one tape or one CD that -- or one device.
17 It's two sets of things going on at once. And that's what we
18 got. We didn't get separate recordings, Your Honor. We got
19 one thing that is just chaotic, and then we got instructed that
20 we're not going to get anything more. And so I don't believe
21 that they have an avenue here. I don't think it's fair, I
22 don't think it's just, and I think it violates the rule --
23 doctrine of completeness.
24 MS. LAMOUREUX: Mr. Traverso is misstating. He --
25 defense has everything that we have.
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
239
2 MS. LAMOUREUX: Mr. Skrocki might be in a better
3 position with the history of this to brief the Court.
4 MR. SKROCKI: It won't take long. Mr. Traverso, just
5 let me --
6 MR. TRAVERSO: I think the FBI should come in here and
7 testify. I think Derek Espeland was the one who was there
8 supervising. If he comes in and testifies and he could provide
9 the original recording, I think they resolve the issue. And --
10 MR. SKROCKI: I think there's a misunder --
11 MR. TRAVERSO: -- then we get the copy of it.
12 MR. SKROCKI: There's a misunderstanding about what's
13 at play here.
15 MR. SKROCKI: So let me back --
17 MR. SKROCKI: Let me back up.
19 MR. SKROCKI: Okay. When Mr. Espeland tasked Mr.
20 Fulton to go to Fairbanks -- or Mr. Fulton was already going.
21 He was not directed to record the conversation with the hotel
22 room with Mr. Cox, so there is no federal authority to do so.
23 Nevertheless, Mr. Fulton did so. He brought it back, he told
24 Agent Espeland, "I recorded the conversation." Agent Espeland
25 sat down, said, "You shouldn't have done that." They listened
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
240
1 to it and he decided not to take a copy because it was not
2 authorized. So Agent Espeland didn't get a copy.
3 We were informed of this by Mr. Fulton in preparation
4 for the February trial. So we said, "All right, search high
5 and low, give us what you got." And what Fulton gave us was
6 what we're all talking about now, is an inner -- a recorded
7 conversation of Fulton and Espeland in Fulton's office at the
8 Drop Zone. So Fulton's recording that without Agent Espeland
9 knowing it. While they're having a chit-chat about this,
10 Fulton plays his recording for Agent Espeland.
11 So that's what we have, that's what we've given them,
12 and that's what they have transcribed. So there is no other
13 recording, there is no original, because Mr. Fulton, as we --
14 as he was directed on cross, he was -- there was an allegation
15 made he was an FBI agent. FBI came and told him, yeah, "Here's
16 what's going on here, knock this stuff off." So Fulton deleted
17 his files. So the original, such as it was, is gone. So all
18 parties have what's in existence on this matter, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Well, all of this, it doesn't help the
20 immediate problem, which is, is there more on the existing tape
21 than these clips that needs to be played in order to make the
22 clips fairly presented. And I have no idea because I don't
23 know what else is on the tape. And Mr. Traverso says more
24 needs to be played, but I don't know what it is.
25 So I think it's -- it seems pretty clear to me that
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241
1 something can be played to the jury from this. They can weigh
2 it and determine what value it has. But whether it should be
3 the clip offered by the government or something in addition to
4 that, I don't know. One way to do it is let the government
5 play their clips and let the defense to -- submit the whole
6 conversation as part of their sur -- or their rebuttal.
7 MS. LAMOUREUX: It is two hours long and it contains a
8 lot of conversation between Agent Espeland and Bill Fulton
9 without Mr. Cox speaking at all. We would -- I don't know if
10 that's what Mr. Traverso would suggest to play for the jury,
11 but --
12 MR. TRAVERSO: Well, I mean, I think that would be
13 fine.
14 THE CLERK: Your mic, please.
15 THE COURT: Well, wait a minute. Talk into that mic.
16 MR. TRAVERSO: I think that would be fine. Since
17 there's been a definite umbilical cord that has been cut
18 between Mr. Fulton and the government. And if they want to
19 play the whole two hours, so be it. I think that's what we
20 ought to do.
21 THE WITNESS: I --
22 MS. LAMOUREUX: Well, he --
23 MR. TRAVERSO: That'll show --
24 MS. LAMOUREUX: We definitely do not want to play the
25 full two hours.
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
242
1 MR. TRAVERSO: Well, we do, then. We'll do it, since
2 it shows that there is -- there was -- Mr. Fulton testified and
3 was playing roundabout and was not being credible about his
4 connection to the investigation in this case.
5 MS. LAMOUREUX: He crossed Mr. Fulton on this point.
6 He had his opportunity.
8 MS. LAMOUREUX: He could have played it with Mr. Fulton
9 then.
10 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I would like to confer with
11 counsel, if that's okay, real quick.
12 THE COURT: I'm sorry, who's talking?
13 THE WITNESS: Schaeffer. Over here. Over here.
14 THE COURT: Oh. No --
15 THE WITNESS: If I could talk to him for a second, I
16 would like that.
17 THE COURT: You want to talk to your lawyer?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 THE COURT: Not in the middle of your testimony. You
20 know, the problem with this is you're giving an evidentiary
21 problem --
22 MR. TRAVERSO: Yeah.
23 THE COURT: -- that I don't have as much detail about
24 to give you an accurate ruling. So I'm going to rule and hope
25 that it's correct. And my ruling is that this exhibit may be
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
243
1 admitted without prejudice to more of this clip -- of this
2 recorded conversation but played at an appropriate time. All
3 right?
5 MR. DOOLEY: Your Honor, I wanted to put on record an
6 objection that I have. And that is that this man, Bill Fulton,
7 was operating as a government informant. If he was not
8 operating properly by tape recording and was doing so against
9 the orders of the government, the government should not then
10 have the advantage of playing his misconduct, essentially.
11 That's my objection.
12 MS. HADEN: And, Your Honor, I would ask for a
13 limited -- limiting instruction as to Mr. Vernon. I don't
14 think this has anything to do with it -- with him.
15 MS. LAMOUREUX: This is all --
16 MS. HADEN: He --
17 MS. LAMOUREUX: -- during the time frame of the
18 conspiracy, Your Honor.
19 MS. HADEN: There's still -- there's no indication that
20 he has any knowledge of this meeting. He didn't attend the
21 meeting at Pike's, he didn't attend the meeting at Blondie's.
22 I don't think he even knew about the meeting at Blondie's until
23 February.
24 MR. DOOLEY: Same for Mr. Barney.
25 MS. HADEN: And his name is not on the grand jury list.
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
244
1 MS. LAMOUREUX: Les Zerbe --
2 THE COURT: Whose --
3 MS. LAMOUREUX: Les Zerbe was present at that meeting.
4 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Whose name, not on what
5 grand jury list?
6 MS. HADEN: Mr. Vernon's name is not on the grand
7 jury -- whatever they're calling it -- de jure.
8 THE COURT: De jure. Sounds like soup. All right.
9 The answer I've given and the additional objections are
10 overruled. How long is this clip?
11 MS. LAMOUREUX: The clip that you just heard, Your
12 Honor.
13 THE COURT: There's no tran --
14 MS. LAMOUREUX: Oh --
15 THE COURT: There's no transcript with them?
16 MS. LAMOUREUX: There's no transcript --
18 MS. LAMOUREUX: -- except for the one that they have,
19 but --
20 THE COURT: Well, bring the jury in. We'll get this
21 done and then we'll break for the evening.
23 MS. HADEN: Your Honor, if I may, I have one more thing
24 to add to my --
25 THE COURT: Yes.
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
245
COX - CROSS
1 MS. HADEN: -- objection. That -- the government is
2 offering this simply for its impeachment value. And I think
3 that that --
4 MS. LAMOUREUX: That's true.
5 MS. HADEN: In that instance, it --
7 MS. HADEN: -- shouldn't be used against Mr. Vernon.
9 MR. DOOLEY: Or Mr. Barney.
10 THE COURT: No, that objection is overruled. Ladies
11 and gentlemen, in your absence I have admitted Exhibit 934,
12 which consists of three audio clips. I think they -- has not
13 been identified before the jury, however. So we should cover
14 that.
15 CROSS-EXAMINATION, CONTINUED
17 Q You've testified previously about your meeting with Bill
18 Fulton, Les Zerbe, and Jeremy Baker that night in June 2010 at
19 Pike's Landing, right, in Fairbanks?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And the clips we're about to play are that -- some of the
22 portions of the conversation you had that night. Right?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Let's go ahead and play --
25 A I --
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
246
COX - CROSS
1 Q -- Exhibit 9 --
2 A I --
3 Q -- 34-1, please.
4 04:57:38
5 (Audio played)
6 04:58:07
7 Q And there's no transcript for this recording in the
8 binders, for the record. That was 934-01. You're talking to
9 Bill Fulton there, right?
10 A Correct.
11 Q And you're talking about the Alaska grand jury de jure.
12 Right?
13 A Correct.
14 Q And Mr. Fulton asks you if there are warrants, right?
15 A Correct.
16 Q And you said, no, but the grand jury's working on it as
17 fast as they could, right?
18 A Can you re --
19 Q We can replay it.
20 A -- replay this again?
21 Q Yeah. 934 --
22 A I don't think I --
23 Q -- -01 --
24 A -- I don't --
25 Q -- we'll replay it.
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
247
COX - CROSS
1 A Okay.
2 04:58:55
3 (Audio played)
4 04:59:20
5 Q So you said they hadn't charged anyone yet. Right?
6 A My response to his, "Does the grand jury have warrants"
7 was, "Uhh, what do you mean?"
8 Q And you said, "The grand jury's working on it as fast as
9 they can." Right?
10 A I wasn't meaning warrants.
11 Q Let's go to 934, clip 2.
12 04:59:50
13 (Audio played)
14 A Thanks.
15 (Audio continues)
16 05:00:54
17 Q And now let's play clip 934-3.
18 05:00:57
19 (Audio played)
20 05:01:56
21 Q You asked Mr. Fulton what he would think about executing
22 grand jury de jure warrants. Right?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Before, you told this grand jury you didn't talk about
25 warrants. Right?
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
248
COX - CROSS
1 A I had not remembered talking about warrants.
2 Q You were pretty clear to the -- to this jury that you and
3 Bill Fulton hadn't talked about warrants that night at Pike's
4 Landing, weren't you?
5 A I had not remembered talking about warrants.
6 Q You remember it now?
7 A Yeah, I remember it now.
8 THE COURT: Okay. We'll leave it there until tomorrow
9 morning at 8:30, folks. Please continue to follow my
10 instructions about recesses. At this point, after repeating
11 those words so often, I often think I should ask one of the
12 jurors to give the admonition, but that would not be very fair.
13 But don't discuss the case with each other or anyone else.
14 Don't let anyone talk to you about it. Don't read new -- or
15 listen to any news accounts. Don't do any independent research
16 of any nature on the -- anything that you've heard raised in
17 the case. Keep your minds open on all issues, and come back
18 tomorrow at 8:30, ready to go to work. Okay.
19 THE CLERK: All rise. This matter is in recess until
20 tomorrow morning at 8:30. This court is adjourned, subject to
21 call.
22 (Proceedings concluded at 5:03 p.m.)
23
24
25
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
249
1 CERTIFICATE
2 I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from the

electronic sound recording of the proceedings in the above-
3 entitled matter.
4
s/Teresa K. Combs 9/19/12
5 Teresa K. Combs, Transcriber Date
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
1 INDEX
2 FURTHER
DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS REDIRECT
3
DEFENDANT COX'S WITNESSES
4
Francis August Schaeffer Cox
5 By Mr. Traverso 3
By Mr. Dooley 147
6 By Ms. Lamoureux 151
7 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS ADMITTED
8 20-03 video meeting at Mr. Vernon's house 185
9 878 protective order 224
10 917 11/18/09 video of Mr. Cox at Continental Congress 153
11 918 11/18/09 video of Mr. Cox at Continental Congress 154
12 926 Audio 156
13 934 Audio 234
14 DEFENDANT COX'S EXHIBITS ADMITTED
15 FSC-7 audio, 2/4/11 71
16 FSC-9 Wanted poster 143
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
251
U.S. v. Cox, et al., 3:11-cr-00022-01/02/03-RJB
6/5/12 - index
153 ... 192 31 ... 71, 72, 167 169, 172

.22 ... 5, 10 04:38:07 ... 232
15th ... 182 34 ... 72, 138, 169, 246 934 ... 231-233, 243,
.30 ... 5-7 04:38:17 ... 232
16 ... 9, 137, 158, 217 37 ... 110, 141, 169, 177, 245-247
.380 ... 7, 79 04:39:17 ... 232
.45 ... 5, 6, 8 04:57:38 ... 246 17 ... 3, 160, 232 193, 194, 202, 207, A
1700s ... 81 232 a.m. ... 3, 67, 69
.45. ... 8 04:58:07 ... 246
194 ... 217 4 ... 75, 76, 93-95, 102, 211, Aaron ... 32, 182, 196,
$100 ... 122 04:58:55 ... 247
19th ... 99-101, 104, 105, 231, 244 204-206, 208, 216
$7,500 ... 144 04:59:20 ... 247
143, 145 4:36 ... 231 abandoning ... 103
01 ... 134, 153, 154, 170, 04:59:50 ... 247
1st ... 121 4:56 ... 211, 244 abide ... 217
246, 247 05 ... 153, 157, 160, 172,
2 ... 68, 75-77, 93-95, 102, 40 ... 92, 163, 171 able ... 16, 90, 95, 164, 175,
01:57:05 ... 153 247
207, 211, 231, 232, 41 ... 178, 179 198, 208, 210
01:58:07 ... 153 05:00:54 ... 247
247 446 ... 200 above ... 36, 62, 149, 196
01:59:13 ... 154 05:00:57 ... 247
20 ... 7, 67, 86, 158, 163, 454 ... 6, 7 absence ... 245
02:00:24 ... 154 05:01:56 ... 247
179, 184, 185, 194, 4th ... 56, 59-61, 65, 69 accompanied ... 226
02:05:43 ... 157 06 ... 5-7, 163
247 5 ... 3, 72, 77, 95, 211, 248 accompany ... 17
02:07:46 ... 157 09 ... 158, 169, 215
2000 ... 148 5:03 ... 248 according ... 11, 23, 104,
02:08:20 ... 158 1 ... 7, 68, 75, 76, 93-95,
2008 ... 39, 100 5:21 ... 211 236
02:08:52 ... 158 102, 134, 138, 141,
2009 ... 100, 151, 154 590 ... 221 accounts ... 248
02:08:55 ... 158 231, 246
2010 ... 13, 29, 31, 37, 38, 5th ... 65 accurate ... 191, 225, 242
02:09:16 ... 158 1,000 ... 7
41, 43, 56, 61, 157, 6 ... 76, 77, 191 accurately ... 142
02:09:30 ... 158 1:30 ... 134, 138
158, 160, 162, 163, 673 ... 3 accusation ... 159
02:12:00 ... 158 1:34 ... 138
172, 182, 188, 189, 6th ... 73, 76, 77, 93, 156 acquire ... 8, 12, 123
02:14:03 ... 160 1:37 ... 141
203, 211, 218-220, ... 7 ... 47, 69, 71, 72, 144, 192 acquired ... 8, 66
02:14:58 ... 160 10 ... 6, 8, 67, 69, 71, 72,
224, 228-231, 245 762 ... 7 across ... 55
02:19:14 ... 163 172, 180, 185, 188,
2011 ... 56, 59, 96, 141, 143, 79 ... 222 Act ... 34, 118, 136, 189
02:20:40 ... 163 200, 205
156, 157, 184 790 ... 180 acted ... 136, 138
02:22:07 ... 164 10:20 ... 67
2012 ... 3 792 ... 6, 181, 203, 211 acting ... 98, 136
02:26:32 ... 164 10:25 ... 69
21st ... 105, 185 794 ... 117, 181 action ... 95
02:31:07 ... 167 10:29:19 ... 71
22 ... 5, 6, 8, 10, 164 8 ... 3, 41, 117, 181, 215, actions ... 153, 226
02:33:28 ... 167 10:29:31 ... 72
223 ... 167, 194 248 active ... 221
02:34:57 ... 169 10:30:32 ... 72
22nd ... 105 8:09 ... 215 activism ... 4, 5, 44, 61
02:37:21 ... 169 10:34:53 ... 72
23rd ... 43, 189, 203, 211 8:29 ... 215 activist ... 52
02:38:15 ... 169 100 ... 122, 194
24 ... 47, 154, 189 8:30 ... 248 activists ... 49
02:38:53 ... 169 10th ... 91, 128, 129, 143
24th ... 75 8:33 ... 3 activities ... 66, 118
02:40:36 ... 171 11 ... 155, 172
25 ... 69, 127, 185 8:35 ... 3 activity ... 66
02:40:47 ... 171 11th ... 220, 224
25th ... 13 801 ... 68 Acts ... 3
02:43:05 ... 172 12 ... 5, 6, 134, 138, 158,
26 ... 164, 222 807 ... 173 actual ... 45, 135, 150
02:44:10 ... 172 178, 179, 181
27 ... 168 870 ... 5 add ... 223, 244
02:52:20 ... 179 12:01 ... 134
28 ... 167, 194 878 ... 219, 220, 223, 224, adding ... 198
02:53:15 ... 179 12:08 ... 138
3 ... 174, 175, 189, 192, 231, 232 addition ... 241
03 ... 160, 184, 185, 207, 12th ... 92, 93, 96, 101,
232, 247 9 ... 67, 101, 117, 142, 143, address ... 51, 52, 107, 108
232, 248 102, 106, 108, 187
3,500 ... 174, 175 200, 246 addressed ... 93
03:02:10 ... 185 13 ... 154, 158, 200
3:08 ... 189 9:56 ... 67 addressing ... 98
03:03:25 ... 185 139 ... 190, 200, 206
3:23 ... 189 911 ... 160, 161 adjourned ... 248
03:51:14 ... 207 13th ... 92
3:24 ... 189 916 ... 170 Administration ... 197
03:59:56 ... 207 14 ... 8, 160, 163, 207, 217
30 ... 5-7, 72, 134, 138, 158, 917 ... 152, 153 admiralty ... 80
04:36:29 ... 232 14th ... 89-91, 97, 102, 184
248 918 ... 154 admission ... 41, 68
04:36:56 ... 232 15 ... 6, 8, 67, 86, 169, 179,
300 ... 175 926 ... 155-157, 160, 163, admitted ... 42, 71, 143, 153,
04:37:03 ... 232 180, 217
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
252
6/5/12 - index
argue ... 82, 84, 98, 100 attend ... 243 Barney ... 77, 96, 99-101,
154, 156, 179-181, 185, 190, alternative ... 94
argued ... 76 attention ... 78 121, 128-130, 148,
207, 224, 243, 245 Amendment ... 100
arguing ... 76 attorney ... 14, 15, 26, 28, 184, 185, 203, 205,
admonition ... 248 America ... 4, 55
argument ... 100, 136 57, 58, 80, 137, 205 207, 210, 243, 245
adopted ... 81 American ... 59, 155, 156,
Argumentative ... 215 attorneys ... 20, 58 barrel ... 173
advantage ... 243 171, 172, 216
arised ... 191 attributable ... 153, 191 Barrick ... 52-55, 77, 144,
advice ... 26, 38, 40, 75 ammo ... 7
arisen ... 48 Audio ... 65, 69, 71-73, 157, 147
advise ... 25 ammu ... 132
armed ... 98, 196, 206, 207, 158, 160, 163, 164, Bartel ... 214
advised ... 26, 179 ammunition ... 132, 166,
209, 226 167, 169, 172, 179, Bartels ... 192, 200, 201,
afraid ... 47, 53, 61, 90, 168, 167, 182
armor ... 7, 47, 162, 163, 185, 207, 232, 245-247 208, 215, 217
228 among ... 105, 145, 228
193, 227 August ... 3, 37, 38, 41, 42, base ... 165, 223, 224, 226,
African ... 59 amount ... 121, 205
army ... 12, 66, 176, 182, 56, 61, 222 227
afternoon ... 134, 140 amounted ... 224
215, 226 authority ... 165, 173, 174, Based ... 24, 37, 107, 199,
against ... 46, 68, 75, 90, 95, analysis ... 71
Arne ... 144, 147 186, 234-236, 239 224, 233
153, 154, 156, 179, Anchorage ... 3, 59, 210
arrange ... 123 authorized ... 240 basic ... 69
185, 243, 245 Anderson ... 49-51, 56, 107,
arranged ... 14, 104, 112 auto ... 137 basis ... 237
agency ... 87 112, 113, 137
arrangement ... 123 automatic ... 137, 167, 171 bat ... 51
agent ... 135, 137, 178, 180, angry ... 34, 88
arrangements ... 123, 124 available ... 236, 237 bear ... 214
197, 199-201, 221, Ann ... 220
arrest ... 79, 95, 160, 196, avenue ... 238 Beauchamp ... 50
229, 234, 239-241 announce ... 196
226 average ... 42 became ... 4, 235
agents ... 158, 195, 197-199, anyway ... 53, 67, 69, 161,
arrested ... 58, 90, 91, 95, 98, Avery ... 220 become ... 4
201, 204, 205, 211 169, 231
104, 108, 137, 163, avoid ... 67, 165, 195, 197 bed ... 84
agree ... 4, 16, 42, 171, 176 anyways ... 172, 201
172 aware ... 24, 47, 137, 152, beehive ... 212
agreed ... 88 anywhere ... 106, 175, 206
arresting ... 162, 196 187, 235 bees ... 211
agreement ... 16 apiece ... 122
ahead ... 11, 18, 19, 25, 40, APM ... 41, 76, 118, 168, arrive ... 33, 215 B behind ... 78, 128, 142, 159
arrived ... 128, 209 baby ... 60 bel ... 202
46, 53, 152-154, 157, 174, 175, 190
arriving ... 129 back ... 12, 16, 41, 49, 54, Beld ... 109
162, 207, 219, 245 apologies ... 179, 223
article ... 173 55, 59, 65, 73, 74, 79, belief ... 151
aid ... 120 apologize ... 72
assassination ... 151, 84, 98, 102, 108, 114, believed ... 21
air ... 104 apology ... 141
186-188 131, 142, 146, 148, Bell ... 78, 100, 160, 170,
aired ... 152 appar ... 58
assassins ... 189, 215 151, 154, ... 164-166, 171
airport ... 47 apparent ... 57
Assembly ... 217, 225 170, 185, 195, 199, belligerent ... 83
airwaves ... 121 apparently ... 90, 212, 235,
asserted ... 68 200, 208, 210, 222, belong ... 49, 132, 148
Alaska ... 3, 13, 15, 28, 42, 236
assessment ... 172 235, 239, 248 belonged ... 49, 148
49, 50, 80, 86-88, 118, appear ... 84, 88, 89, 91, 97,
assigned ... 82, 89 background ... 42 belt ... 5, 7, 8, 167, 183
145, 148, 216, 144, 215
assistance ... 18, 22, 58, 166 bag ... 48, 150, 194 belts ... 166, 176, 181-183
218-220, 222-226, 233, appearance ... 89, 216
assistant ... 28 baggage ... 48 bench ... 91
238, 246 appears ... 235
associated ... 22 bail ... 58, 59, 87, 95, 144, Bennett ... 182, 204-206,
... album 119 applicable ... 216
assumption ... 181, 211, 213 202, 204, 205, 210 208, 216
alert ... 175, 176 application ... 166
assumptions ... 209, 213 bailed ... 58 bet ... 178, 211
allegation ... 240 applying ... 175
assured ... 76 Baker ... 30, 53, 54, 170, Beverly ... 220
alleged ... 69, 136 appreciate ... 69
asylum ... 165, 224 172, 219, 231, 245 bickering ... 225
allegedly ... 78, 138 approach ... 48, 117
ATF ... 114-116, 135-137 balance ... 88 big ... 5, 12, 30, 32, 44, 48,
alleging ... 137 approached ... 161
attached ... 106 balances ... 174 91, 110, 111, 132, 165
Alliant ... 148 appropriate ... 71, 226, 231,
attack ... 77, 92 ball ... 178, 180 Bill ... 19, 29, 30, 32-35, 37,
allow ... 16, 137, 138 243
attacked ... 35 balls ... 112 40, 44, 47, 60, 73-75,
allowed ... 68, 236 approximately ... 13, 102
attained ... 4 bangers ... 132, 150 84, 90, 95, 98, 102,
allows ... 41 AR ... 6, 180, 202
attempt ... 81, 138 barbecue ... 38, 41 120, 129, 131, 146,
alone ... 126, 164, 216, 217 arborist ... 106, 110
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
253
6/5/12 - index
cabins ... 121, 124 careful ... 209 charged ... 78, 79, 247
163, 166, ... 167, 183, 196, branch ... 87
cache ... 62 Carhartts ... 130 chat ... 240
199, 204-206, 208, 210, 216, brand ... 62
caches ... 62 carpentry ... 124 check ... 171, 179
229-232, 241, 243, 245, 246, break ... 7, 43, 57, 67, 134,
calendar ... 84-86, 89 Carr ... 113 checkbook ... 102
248 188, 199, 244
caliber ... 5 Carricker ... 209 checkpoint ... 198
bills ... 103, 119 breaking ... 88, 160
call ... 3, 23, 24, 31, 37, 57, carrying ... 171, 207, 209, checks ... 42, 174
bin ... 66 breeze ... 229
58, 73, 78, 84-86, 89, 210, 216, 227 Chena ... 53
binder ... 71 brewing ... 228
101, 119, 121, 132, cartoon ... 144 cherries ... 186
binders ... 155, 246 brief ... 115, 209, 239
138, 160, 161, 166, cartoons ... 77, 142 chief ... 227
bird ... 150 briefed ... 115
167, 170, ... 171, 185, case ... 11, 13, 18, 22, 26, child ... 15, 16, 159
bit ... 5, 12, 47, 53, 65, 114, briefing ... 189, 190, 195,
215, 248 51, 78-80, 82, 85, children ... 17, 96, 145, 146,
131, 132, 152, 184, 202, 207
called ... 14, 15, 29, 33, 43, 89-91, 93, 108, 132, 169
187, 193, 224 briefings ... 190, 207
51, 54-57, 73, 81, 101, 135, 137, 138, 154, chit ... 240
black ... 58 British ... 10
119, 120, 133, 155, 166, 167, 179, ... 208, choice ... 103, 196
blade ... 36 broadcast ... 121
185 233, 242, 248 choo ... 166
Blame ... 44 Bradway ... 104, 183
calling ... 114, 244 cash ... 102 Christmas ... 6
blanket ... 197 Brockman ... 190, 205, 209
Calls ... 20, 23, 26, 51, 53, catalyst ... 75, 102, 166 circles ... 49, 76
blasting ... 121, 197 brother ... 210
61, 97 catch ... 104 circumstances ... 138, 144,
blazing ... 196, 199 brought ... 5, 29, 62, 219,
calm ... 54 category ... 68 191
blew ... 99 223, 226, 239
camo ... 7 caught ... 83 circus ... 47
blogs ... 224 Browning ... 5, 7
campaign ... 37 cause ... 4, 145 civil ... 95
bloodshed ... 228 Bryan ... 3
campaigns ... 37 causing ... 172 claim ... 48
blow ... 122 buck ... 62
can ... 5, 8, 10-14, 16, 20, caustic ... 192 claimed ... 233
blowing ... 99 bucks ... 122
22, 24, 26, 29, 31, 35, CD ... 11, 238 claiming ... 224
blown ... 192 buddy ... 198
41-43, 47-49, 54, 55, cell ... 187 clarification ... 178, 200
blowup ... 99 budget ... 119
57, 65, 66, 78, 95, 106, centered ... 86 clarify ... 180, 184
blue ... 150 build ... 11, 106
107, ... 110, 111, 114, central ... 189 cleaned ... 104
bluff ... 94, 175 building ... 176
115, 120, 121, 123, ceremony ... 38 CLERK ... 3, 67, 69, 116,
board ... 46, 84, 202 built ... 11
126, 129, 131, 134, certain ... 41, 77, 121, 157 117, 138, 140, 141,
bodies ... 11-13, 61, 65, 66, bulldozing ... 88
139, 140, 144, certainly ... 22, 111, 206 144, 147, 153, 156,
182 bullet ... 150
153-155, 157, ... 159, chain ... 21 170, 171, 185, 186,
bodily ... 201 bulletproof ... 47, 130
167, 176, 178, 192, chainsaws ... 106 188-190, 208, ... 211,
body ... 7, 47, 162, 163, 227 bullets ... 132
193, 195, 196, 199, chalk ... 112 216, 224, 235, 241,
Bonnie ... 209 bumped ... 62
200, 203, 214, 218, challenge ... 80 248
border ... 104 bunch ... 12, 90, 107, 121,
220, 224, 226, 228, ... challenged ... 82 climbing ... 106
Both ... 32, 64, 70, 116, 148, 149, 172
230, 231, 233, 241, challenges ... 80, 83 clip ... 155-158, 160, 163,
216 Burke ... 51, 54, 55, 77,
246, 247 challenging ... 16, 83 164, 167-169, 171,
bother ... 146 108, 144
Canada ... 104 chance ... 68, 93, 107, 132, 172, 178, 179, 184,
Bottini ... 167 burned ... 11
canceled ... 135 135, 150, 156 231, 232, 234, 241,
bottom ... 79, 110, 144, 169, bus ... 93, 96, 97, 187
canisters ... 111, 133, 177, change ... 4, 20, 44, 94, 96, 243, 244, 247
173, 196, 200, 201 business ... 64, 87, 110, 133
193, 194 127, 131, 133, 177 ... clipped 234
bottoms ... 12 buy ... 65, 176, 181
canned ... 130 changed ... 47, 96, 145, 146, clips ... 155, 156, 173, 179,
bought ... 9, 66, 134 buying ... 149, 181
153 184, 231-234, 237,
Bowl ... 73, 74 C cans ... 130
capacity ... 15 channels ... 55 240, 241, 245
box ... 7, 176 C4 ... 61, 65
captured ... 95 chaotic ... 238 clo ... 149
boxes ... 176 C90 ... 113
card ... 171 characterization ... 170, 198 close ... 17, 50, 81, 175, 180,
Boy ... 13, 211 C93 ... 113
cardboard ... 133 characters ... 77, 144 215
Brad ... 53, 54, 170, 172 cabin ... 97, 124
care ... 64, 103, 142, 197 charge ... 52, 68, 80, 209 closed ... 41
Bradstreet ... 87 cabino ... 7
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
254
6/5/12 - index
consistent ... 41, 68, 203 copy ... 139, 223, 234, 235, crime ... 89, 135
closer ... 140, 215 community ... 3
consists ... 245 239, 240 crimes ... 87
closet ... 62, 109, 149 Compared ... 194
conspiracy ... 243 cord ... 241 criminal ... 220, 221
clothes ... 25, 130 compassion ... 199
conspirator ... 185 corner ... 36, 201 criteria ... 42
Club ... 112 compiled ... 4
constitute ... 62 correlate ... 46 cross ... 107, 136, 147, 237,
clues ... 214 complete ... 114
Constitution ... 48, 49 couch ... 26 240, 245
co ... 185 completed ... 124
constitutionally ... 49 counsel ... 39, 156, 173, 188, crossed ... 242
Coalition ... 49, 50 completeness ... 238
construct ... 9 201, 207, 235, 242 crusade ... 144
coat ... 130 comply ... 216
constructed ... 10 countries ... 4 CS ... 177, 193, 194, 202
Coffee ... 43 composite ... 107
construction ... 121, 125 country ... 3, 4, 92, 97, 102, culminating ... 93
Coleman ... 38, 41, 77, 96, computer ... 71, 142, 143
constructive ... 5 104, 112, 145, 146, cultural ... 4, 44
97, 100, 101, 103, 121, computers ... 147
contact ... 14-16, 27, 37, 39, 199 Cup ... 43
124, 128-131, 143, concept ... 170
40, 53, 55, 56, 78, 97, couple ... 67, 89, 105, 128, curious ... 140
147-150, 184, 185, concern ... 24, 41, 76, 166,
101, 107, 112, 116, 139, 175, 195 Curtis ... 125
190, 202-205, ... 204, 205
162 course ... 112, 116 cut ... 234, 241
209-212, 214, 215 concerned ... 23, 44, 189,
collar ... 87 204 contacted ... 13, 29, 32, 39, Court ... 3, 5, 6, 9, 15-28, 30, D
54 31, 34, 35, 38, 40-42, danger ... 104, 191, 192,
collecting ... 8 concerns ... 28, 43, 204,
contacts ... 47, 116 52, 53, 56, 67-72, 74, 195-197
colon ... 201 227
contains ... 241 75, 80-91, 93, 95, 97, dangerous ... 19, 40
Colonel ... 165, 166 concluded ... 248
context ... 110, 212, 233, 98, ... 100, 106-109, dark ... 46
Colt ... 6 conclusion ... 31, 95
237 111-115, 117, 118, dash ... 201
combat ... 7 concoct ... 107
Continental ... 151, 154 120, 123, 124, 126, database ... 107
come ... 12, 20, 21, 31, 33, condition ... 210
continue ... 3, 5, 69, 88, 141, 127, 132, 134-145, date ... 75, 86, 123, 127,
41, 53, 54, 56, 60, 61, conditions ... 46, 210, 216
248 151, 153-156, ... 159, 143, 218, 220, 224
68, 76, 91, 93, 95, 101, conduct ... 23, 45, 52, 81,
continued ... 3, 98, 130, 137, 163, 164, 169, 173, dated ... 220, 224
102, 106, 119, 142, 99, 199
144, 245 178-180, 183-189, 192, Dave ... 49, 57-59
146, ... 165, 187, 204, confer ... 242
continues ... 134, 247 193, 201, 205, 215, day ... 32, 43, 46, 72, 73, 84,
211, 216, 239, 248 conference ... 59-61, 73
Control ... 19, 132, 192 218, 220, ... 223, 224, 92, 97, 99, 100, 105,
comes ... 59, 88, 173, 210, confident ... 20
convention ... 65, 73 230-232, 234, 236-242, 118, 121, 128, 184,
239 confirm ... 155
conversation ... 86, 115, 117, 244, 245, 248 188, 228
comfort ... 88 conflict ... 165, 196, 204,
137, 143, 147, 159, Courthouse ... 114 days ... 55, 89, 97, 98, 102,
coming ... 75, 89, 98, 133, 216
162, 184, 187, 209, courtroom ... 87 105, 118, 127, 128,
142, 161, 166, 230 confrontation ... 48, 132,
221, 232, 234, 237, courts ... 225, 226 139
command ... 76, 100, 101, 166, 228
239-241, ... 243, 245 cover ... 245 daytime ... 33
174, 175 confrontational ... 48
conversations ... 137, 184, Cox ... 3, 25, 36, 44, 49, 52, de ... 45, 218-220, 222-226,
commander ... 174, 176, confused ... 33, 178, 230
212, 235, 236, 238 69, 70, 134, 136-139, 229, 230, 232, 233,
190, 191, 199, 200, confusing ... 19
converted ... 75 142, 153-156, 163, 244, 246, 247
202, 203, 209 Congress ... 151, 154
conveying ... 98 179, 204, 214, 220, DEA ... 159, 164, 197
comment ... 88, 157-159, congressman ... 116
conviction ... 164, 167 222, 224, ... 226, 233, dead ... 88, 175, 176
207, 218 congruent ... 173, 174
convictions ... 136 234, 237, 239, 241 deal ... 45, 65, 77, 140, 176
comments ... 83, 146, 204 conjecture ... 106
convince ... 94 Craftsman ... 109, 110 dear ... 50
commerce ... 115, 135, 136 connection ... 242
convinced ... 90 crazy ... 35, 83 December ... 235
commercial ... 87 conscience ... 174, 203
cool ... 11, 12, 122, 212 create ... 107, 141 deceptive ... 170
commissioning ... 38, 41 conscientious ... 206
Cooper ... 38-40 created ... 141, 142 decide ... 37, 174
committees ... 221 consensual ... 234
cooperating ... 14 Credibility ... 159 decided ... 170, 174, 240
common ... 80, 81, 225 consent ... 237, 238
cooperation ... 16 credible ... 126, 242 decides ... 176
communicated ... 76, 195 Conservative ... 49, 50
cops ... 98, 172, 182, 196, credit ... 87 deciding ... 176
communicating ... 25 consider ... 153, 154, 179
212, 214, 228 crew ... 207, 208 deciphered ... 235
communication ... 55, 88 considered ... 132, 156, 171
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
255
6/5/12 - index
dollar ... 66 editorial ... 146 evenings ... 43

decisions ... 195 device ... 138, 238
domestic ... 164, 167 educate ... 68 events ... 37, 38, 51, 119,
declarant ... 68, 69 devices ... 136, 150
donations ... 120 educated ... 69 129, 193
declaration ... 114, 116 diagram ... 50
DOOLEY ... 71, 72, 139, educational ... 49, 121 eventually ... 14, 15, 18, 79,
decommissioned ... 206, 207 dictating ... 99
140, 147, 149, effect ... 134, 217, 228 82, 129, 215
dedicate ... 145 died ... 103
153-156, 164, 180, effort ... 79, 136, 145, 225 everybody ... 33, 34, 48, 76,
dedicated ... 146 dif ... 103
183, 184, 186, 187, efforts ... 233 88, 93, 95, 101, 107,
deeply ... 52 difference ... 80
205, 215, 220, 223, ... eight ... 12, 64, 66, 105, 222 120, 153, 189, 197,
deescalate ... 18 differences ... 83
243, 245 elaborate ... 10, 11 199, 221, 225
defeat ... 4 different ... 12, 58, 59, 69,
door ... 13, 14, 20, 161, 198 elec ... 223 everything ... 90, 103, 109,
defendant ... 3, 71, 143, 153, 82, 102, 118, 142,
doubt ... 207, 214 element ... 135 116, 117, 191, 238
154, 156 148, 149, 184, 193,
dozen ... 128, 194 elements ... 115 evidence ... 41, 67, 137, 138,
Defendants ... 3, 179 207, 208, 215, 221,
DPMS ... 6 elsewhere ... 235 153, 158, 159, 173,
defense ... 115, 135, 192, 225
drafts ... 116 email ... 191 178, 184
199, 235, 238, 241 differently ... 136
dragged ... 128 emailed ... 76 evidentiary ... 238, 242
define ... 62 difficult ... 235
drastically ... 146 emails ... 224 ex ... 17, 136
definite ... 241 digits ... 175
drawer ... 109 embarrassed ... 218 examination ... 3, 144, 147,
definitely ... 132, 178, 189, diner ... 39
drawers ... 110 embarrassing ... 218 245
191, 218, 241 dinky ... 84
Drawing ... 192, 199 emphasize ... 197 example ... 23, 154, 155,
definition ... 68 dinner ... 39
draws ... 200, 201 emphasizing ... 197 173, 191
defused ... 54 DIRE ... 143, 231
dress ... 105 employees ... 49, 50, 92 except ... 154-156, 184, 244
degree ... 79 directed ... 239, 240
dressed ... 130, 198 empty ... 150 exception ... 19, 199
deleted ... 240 direction ... 138, 139, 197,
drive ... 104, 165, 214 en ... 213 excludable ... 138
delivered ... 60, 217, 218 199
driver ... 104, 127 encounter ... 48, 58 exclusion ... 41
Denali ... 144 directions ... 195, 199
driving ... 129, 130, 164 energy ... 145, 223 exculpatory ... 68
denials ... 81 dis ... 66
Drop ... 103, 175, 229, 240 enforcement ... 37, 106, 108, excused ... 134, 188, 231
denied ... 113, 178, 180 disagree ... 37, 98, 199
dropped ... 58, 59 160-162, 171, 197, excuses ... 127, 128
denying ... 81, 205 disagreement ... 76
drove ... 59, 60, 113, 128, 199, 200 executing ... 247
Department ... 107, 160, 172 disapproved ... 35
213 engagement ... 43, 44, 47 Exhibit ... 3, 50, 69-72, 77,
departure ... 127, 144, 145 discovery ... 57, 204, 205
Drug ... 161, 197 ensued ... 100 117, 139, 142, 143,
depict ... 144 discussing ... 54, 73
drums ... 148 entering ... 160 152-156, 170, 173,
depth ... 73 discussions ... 106
drunk ... 207 entire ... 234 178, 180, 181, 184,
Derek ... 229, 239 disguised ... 196
dummy ... 10, 122 entity ... 86 185, 190, 192, ... 200,
describe ... 13, 77, 116, 117, disingenuous ... 137
Dun ... 87 entrapment ... 135, 136 203, 206, 207, 211,
170 Disney ... 77
duty ... 4, 7, 8, 24, 176, entries ... 118 217, 219, 220, 224,
described ... 8, 62, 66, 171, disobedience ... 95
181-183, 221 entry ... 120 231-233, 236, 242,
172 disobeying ... 210
DV ... 13 Equinox ... 120 243, 245, 246
describing ... 164 disregard ... 23, 98, 230
DVD ... 11 equity ... 80, 103 exhibits ... 218
description ... 8, 94 distinction ... 69, 199
dying ... 80 errands ... 214 existed ... 235
designated ... 77 distraction ... 147
dynamics ... 93 escalating ... 18 existence ... 240
destroyed ... 233, 234 District ... 3, 67, 138, 189,
E escalator ... 46 exists ... 234
destroying ... 237 220
each ... 51, 195, 248 Espeland ... 229, 239-241 expended ... 182
detention ... 226 districts ... 221
earlier ... 54, 63, 67, 96, 132, essentially ... 243 expensive ... 194
deter ... 133 diverting ... 87
137, 141, 170, 183, established ... 38, 156 expired ... 15
determine ... 241 doctrine ... 238
232 estate ... 103 explain ... 3, 5, 20, 48, 78,
deterrent ... 106 document ... 83, 173,
early ... 99, 101, 157, 225 Ester ... 121 83, 118, 120, 135, 195
detonate ... 11 218-224, 226, 228
earpieces ... 183 estoppel ... 135, 136 explained ... 210, 235
detonated ... 64 documentation ... 81
eBay ... 11 evening ... 32, 33, 57, 244 explicit ... 65, 122
devastate ... 196 documents ... 223
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
256
6/5/12 - index
fix ... 25 freedom ... 119, 121, 136 gears ... 5, 114
exported ... 117 federal ... 22, 38, 50, 92,
fixed ... 36 freezing ... 149 general ... 8, 28, 108
expounded ... 136 114, 115, 151, 158,
flaked ... 225 friend ... 17, 50, 102, 104, generate ... 138
express ... 68, 145 186, 188, 189, 197,
flares ... 110 181 gentlemen ... 153, 245
expressed ... 41, 83 199, 204, 205, 211,
fled ... 199 friendliest ... 82 Gerald ... 185
extra ... 47, 126 215, 216, 233-239
fleeing ... 97 friendly ... 52 get ... 6, 9, 11-13, 20, 21,
eye ... 212 ... federalist 121
flip ... 222 friends ... 17, 37, 39, 50, 51 23-25, 27-29, 35, 36,
F feds ... 24, 44, 47, 146, 163,
flippant ... 98 front ... 28, 70, 82, 84, 89, 38, 41, 42, 48, 49, 51,
fabrication ... 68 165, 199, 204
flipped ... 221 118, 142, 144 52, 54, 55, 57, 61, 62,
face ... 144, 212 feed ... 134
fly ... 111 fruit ... 102 65, 73, ... 79, 82, 84,
Facebook ... 24, 166, 167 feeling ... 18, 25, 178
FM ... 121 FS ... 143 85, 90, 93, 95, 97, 98,
facing ... 228 feels ... 76
focus ... 145 FSC ... 71, 142, 143 102-104, 107, 110,
factions ... 225 feet ... 167
focused ... 223, 226 Ft ... 20, 21, 218, 219, 223, 111, 113, 121-123,
failure ... 78, 89, 91, 97, 144 fell ... 193
fold ... 178, 207 226 125, 126, 131, ... 136,
fair ... 134, 181, 237, 238, felony ... 136
folded ... 207 fulfilled ... 115 138, 140, 144-147,
248 felt ... 4, 171
folks ... 40, 67, 134, 188, full ... 74, 128, 194, 222, 151, 157, 159-162,
Fairbanks ... 38, 49, 51, 52, ferry ... 104
218, 222, 248 233, 234, 241 164, 172, 174, 178,
56, 58, 79, 85, 112, fifth ... 79
follow ... 4, 11, 15, 24, 26, Fulton ... 19, 29, 34, 35, 39, 186-189, 200, 206, ...
118, 120, 121, 129, fight ... 75, 83, 88, 90, 197
137, 164, 174, 203, 40, 44, 60, 70, 73-75, 213, 215, 238-240, 244
142, 144, 160, 172, figure ... 20, 83, 223
206, 210, 248 84, 90, 98, 129, 131, gets ... 70, 236
175, 199, 210, ... 213, figured ... 28, 29, 91, 104
followers ... 228 146, 163, 166, 167, Gibson ... 23, 25
218, 219, 239, 245 file ... 81, 164
following ... 32, 49, 163 183, 196, ... 204-206, Giessel ... 49
fairly ... 237, 240 filed ... 81, 82, 90, 217
followup ... 208 208, 210, 216, 218, girl ... 60
fake ... 204 files ... 240
font ... 222 219, 228-231, 233-237, give ... 8, 45, 68, 74, 97,
fallout ... 99 fill ... 147
forbearance ... 5 239-243, 245-248 102, 103, 108, 110,
false ... 68 final ... 125
force ... 46, 87, 88, 94, 100, fun ... 12, 62, 66, 122 126, 131, 189, 199,
families ... 17 financial ... 87
174, 177, 199 fundamental ... 137 203, 205, 240, 242,
family ... 17, 18, 37, 50, 53, find ... 9, 61, 65, 104, 116,
foreseeable ... 142, 146 fundraiser ... 33 248
102, 176, 218 145, 146
forgiveness ... 5 funny ... 48, 112 given ... 9, 67, 113, 151,
fandango ... 49 finding ... 41
forgot ... 205, 213 further ... 27, 146, 151 173, 240, 244
far ... 5, 32, 37, 44, 47, 145, fine ... 108, 145, 152, 154,
form ... 4, 14, 38, 49, 81, fuse ... 12, 122, 150 gives ... 157
146, 162, 192, 194, 241
135 fuses ... 12, 66, 182 Glock ... 5, 8
209, 235 fingerprints ... 131
forth ... 16 future ... 142, 146 gloves ... 131
farewell ... 142 finishing ... 121
fast ... 233, 246, 247 fire ... 150 foster ... 15 G glowing ... 28
foul ... 21 gaggle ... 223 glue ... 109, 110
father ... 6, 169 firearm ... 36, 115, 209, 216
found ... 87, 101, 105, 149, game ... 45, 98 go ... 5, 11, 12, 17-21, 25,
fathers ... 81, 121 firearms ... 5, 8, 63, 64, 80,
150 Gandhi ... 4, 5, 44, 94, 98 27-29, 32, 33, 40, 46,
fax ... 224 114, 136, 182
foundation ... 139, 140, 187, garage ... 17, 18, 148, 149 47, 51-56, 59, 60, 62,
FBI ... 23, 24, 66, 116, 229, fired ... 150, 165
220, 223 garbage ... 103 64, 66, 71, 77-79,
230, 234, 239, 240 first ... 15, 21, 39, 44, 46,
founding ... 81, 121 Gary ... 190, 205, 209 82-84, 90, ... 98, 104,
fear ... 44, 163 75, 77, 82, 83, 97,
four ... 43, 194, 222 gas ... 7, 110, 177 106, 108, 112-115,
fears ... 83, 228 101, 106, 120, 125,
Fox ... 77 gathered ... 105 121, 127-129, 131,
February ... 13, 56, 59-61, 127, 135, 136, 139,
fragment ... 12 gauge ... 5-7 146, 152-154, 157,
65, 69, 73, 76, 89, 91, 152-155, 157, ... 158,
Fragmentation ... 12, 122 gave ... 69, 70, 72, 76, 88, 158, 160, 163, 164, ...
96, 97, 100, 102, 104, 164, 168, 173, 179,
frame ... 157, 243 97, 99, 102, 108, 174, 166, 167, 169, 170,
106, 141, 143, 145, 186, 187, 198-200,
Francis ... 3, 69, 222 189, 199, 224, 226, 172, 173, 178, 180,
184, 185, ... 187, 240, 222, 225, 231, 235
freak ... 79 240 181, 193, 195, 199,
243 fishing ... 51
Fred ... 129 gear ... 106 200, 203, 207, 209,
fed ... 5 five ... 99, 192, 222
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
257
6/5/12 - index
hands ... 79, 81, 89, 114 hike ... 231 109, ... 112, 130, 143,
215, ... 219, 222, 229, 239, grenades ... 12, 13, 64-66,
handwriting ... 192 Hill ... 15 149, 160-162, 169,
245, 247, 248 105, 122-124, 129,
handyman ... 5 hire ... 80 170, 180, 184, 190,
goals ... 37 130, 177, 193, 194,
hang ... 17 hiring ... 80 202, 213, 214
going ... 4, 5, 8, 16, 21, 22, 201, 202
happening ... 189 Hiss ... 77 household ... 128
27, 32, 33, 35, 41, 43, grocery ... 194
happenstance ... 97 history ... 15, 81, 224, 239 houses ... 91
44, 48, 53, 54, 59, 60, group ... 132, 217, 224
hard ... 68, 83, 120, 192, hit ... 43, 49, 119 hug ... 88, 99
66, 70, 76, 78, 79, 82, groups ... 132
201, 235, 238 hitting ... 112 huge ... 122
84, ... 87, 89, 90, 92, grow ... 168
hash ... 80 hobby ... 62 human ... 98
93, 95, 97, 98, 100, grown ... 146
hassle ... 48 Hodgdon ... 148 Hundred ... 194
102-106, 110-112, 114, grumpy ... 53
hat ... 130 hold ... 12, 65 hurry ... 48
118-121, 123, 127-129, guarding ... 215
hate ... 58 holes ... 12 hurt ... 12, 36, 98, 133, 178
131-134, ... 136, 139, guess ... 11, 13, 22, 62, 68,
hats ... 221 holster ... 8, 183 husband ... 17
144, 146, 152, 155, 85, 95, 99, 126, 139,
haul ... 105 home ... 13, 51, 54, 55, 103, hypotheticals ... 197
159, 161, 163, 165, 157, 197, 206, 211,
166, 170, 177, 185, 213, 234 head ... 51 114, 137, 141, 147, I
headed ... 113 150 IACC ... 37
192, 195-198, ... guests ... 45
headset ... 153 homemade ... 115, 136 ice ... 193
201-204, 207, 212, guideline ... 67
hear ... 73, 74, 85, 110, 135, homeowner ... 161 iconic ... 66
217-219, 221, 224, guideposts ... 4
155, 162, 165, 230, Homer ... 60 Ideas ... 4, 118
225, 230, 238-240, 242 gun ... 5, 6, 8-10, 20, 63,
235 honest ... 122, 202, 204, 228 identification ... 156, 219
Golden ... 118 66, 113, 133, 149,
heard ... 39, 75, 77, 93, 110, honestly ... 235 identified ... 152, 154-156,
golf ... 112, 133, 177 173, 180, 209
152, 170-173, 188, Honor ... 3, 4, 6, 9, 16, 19, 231, 245
gone ... 12, 113, 146, 240 gunpowder ... 148
202, 205, 207, 208, 20, 22-25, 27, 28, 41, ignored ... 94
Good ... 3, 38, 39, 50, 51, guns ... 44, 62, 63
231, 232, 244, 248 53, 64, 67-71, 106, II ... 5, 10
67, 76, 88, 94, 111, guru ... 187
hearing ... 3, 22, 69, 84-86, 108, 114, 115, ilk ... 37
128, 150, 176, 183, guts ... 28
169, 202, 204, 205, 117-120, 123, ... 134, illegal ... 121
209, 217, 238 guys ... 4, 16, 41, 45, 60,
218 137, 138, 142, 154, Imagine ... 149
goodies ... 128, 130 62, 77, 83, 102, 103,
hearings ... 26 155, 157, 159, Immediate ... 145, 240
goodness ... 122 108, 121, 127, 180,
hearsay ... 14, 16, 19, 20, 178-180, 184, 185, immediately ... 78
goods ... 128, 130 182, 195, 197, 205,
23-26, 40, 53, 68, 69, 187, 189, 192, 223, impeach ... 233
Google ... 147 216, 227
232, ... 234, 235, 238, impeaching ... 237
government ... 22, 87, 88, H 74, 107, 113, 114, 123,
137, 138 240, 242-244 impeachment ... 245
106, 115, 116, 136, Haden ... 3, 70, 71, 151,
heart ... 199 Honorable ... 3, 77 impending ... 228
139, 147, 152, 154, 153-157, 178, 179,
heated ... 35, 149 Hood ... 77, 130 implied ... 68, 171
184, 219, 220, 223, 185, 207, 223,
hell ... 230 hope ... 134, 242 implying ... 131, 160, 168
228, 230, 231, ... 243-245
help ... 18, 20, 21, 38, 52, hopefully ... 90 important ... 52
233-237, 241, 243, 245 half ... 21
54, 65, 225-227, 240 hoping ... 90 impression ... 34, 75, 122
grabbed ... 78 halfway ... 201
helped ... 172, 184 horrible ... 93, 197 improper ... 68
grand ... 33, 218-220, hall ... 149
helpful ... 67 hose ... 10 inaccurate ... 198, 215, 216
222-226, 228-230, 233, Hammer ... 85
hereby ... 226 Hot ... 53 inches ... 36
243, 244, 246, 247 Hammers ... 82, 84-87, 89
Hey ... 79, 83, 113, 123, 195, hotel ... 239 incidental ... 91
grant ... 165 Han ... 127
211, 227 hour ... 21, 61 incorrect ... 91
grassroots ... 44, 49, 52, 61 hand ... 12, 36, 139, 191,
hide ... 97 hours ... 21, 39, 51, 128, Index ... 71, 72
grave ... 41 194, 201, 226
hiding ... 36 134, 241 indexed ... 71
Greenleaf ... 227 handcuffs ... 8, 79, 176,
high ... 132, 175, 176, 186, house ... 14, 17, 18, 20, 23, indicated ... 36
grenade ... 11-13, 64, 66, 183
240 25, 26, 38, 53, 55, 56, indication ... 243
112, 122, 131, 133, handed ... 131
higher ... 21, 62 60, 61, 63, 74, 78, 92, indirect ... 138
148-150, 164, 165, handgun ... 7
Highway ... 56, 113 97, 99, 102, 103, 105, indiscernible ... 52, 54, 58,
177, 182 handle ... 131
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
258
6/5/12 - index
Joseph ... 167 201, 202, 204, 206, 224, 227, 230-235,
70, 107, 180, 200, 218, 233 introduced ... 93
Judge ... 18, 28, 77, 82, 215, 218 237-239, 241-245
inevitable ... 228 investigation ... 234, 242
84-87, 89, 144, 147, ... killed 51, 90 Landing ... 29-31, 230, 234,
influence ... 19, 40, 68, 169 invitation ... 218
169, 188, 192, 200, killing ... 33, 44, 197, 204 245, 248
informal ... 84 invited ... 17, 32, 60
201, 208, 210, 214, kills ... 199 landline ... 160
informant ... 243 inviting ... 225
215, 217, 218 kinds ... 8, 42, 81, 194 landscaping ... 64
informed ... 130, 240 involve ... 220
... judges 33, 34, 77, 84, 139, King ... 4, 5 lapel ... 117, 118
informing ... 78 iPhone ... 116, 117
228 kitchen ... 18 late ... 81, 112, 134
initially ... 14 ironically ... 130
judiciary ... 87 KJNP ... 42, 44, 45, 47, 134, later ... 6, 9, 11, 13, 19, 29,
initiate ... 33 irrelevant ... 135, 137
jump ... 20, 47 155, 162, 181, 30, 33, 38, 46, 53, 69,
initiator ... 46 irritant ... 110
jumped ... 195 188-191, 193, 196, 77, 83, 89, 92, 122,
injure ... 134 isms ... 102
jumps ... 196, 197 200, 203, 206, 208, 123, 137, 229
injury ... 226 isolation ... 233
June ... 3, 13, 29, 31, 37, 211, 213-216 laughed ... 88
inner ... 240 Israel ... 146
218-220, 224, 228-231, knacks ... 149 laughing ... 208
insert ... 133 issue ... 43, 135-137, 165,
245 knick ... 149 launch ... 110
inside ... 215 224, 238, 239
jure ... 218-220, 222-226, knife ... 35, 36 launcher ... 111, 150, 193,
instigate ... 204 issued ... 18, 91, 92
229, 230, 232, 233, knock ... 13, 240 202, 207
instilled ... 44 issues ... 138, 248
244, 246, 247 knocked ... 161 launchers ... 110, 111, 150,
instruct ... 45, 107 issuing ... 170, 217
jurisdiction ... 80-82, 87, 88, knocking ... 161 164, 165, 177, 194
instructed ... 136, 179, 238 item ... 111, 118, 142
226 knocks ... 88 launching ... 110
instruction ... 45, 106, 153, items ... 3, 11, 64, 103-105,
jurisdictional ... 80, 83, 86, knowing ... 98, 178, 180, lawn ... 64
156, 173, 243 108, 109, 130, 131,
87, 218 186, 240 lawyer ... 242
instructions ... 45, 46, 65, 181, 185
knowledge ... 123, 136, 220, Lead ... 30, 150
67, 69, 70, 72, 102, J juror ... 221
jurors ... 248 223, 243 leader ... 100, 186, 195
108, 248 J.R. ... 41, 56, 59-61, 65,
jury ... 3, 23, 67, 69, 70, 115, known ... 39, 50, 100, 137 leadership ... 62
Insubordinates ... 206 69, 73-75, 93, 94, 96,
134, 135, 138, 140, knows ... 54, 132 Leading ... 18, 23, 31, 34,
intellectual ... 98, 199 97, 101-104, 106,
141, 153, 155, 156, Knoxville ... 207 35, 37, 38, 40, 42, 57,
intensive ... 145 112, 113, 122-124,
intent ... 135, 199 126, 128-130, ... 208 167, 170, 179, 183, L 67, 80, 83, 85, 92, 109,
189, 192, ... 216, Lack ... 16, 220, 223 111, 121, 124, 129,
interacted ... 87 jack ... 5
218-226, 228-231, 233, lacking ... 220 134, 135
interaction ... 76, 125, 130, jail ... 59, 91
236, 241, 243-248 ladies ... 153, 245 ... learn 129, 225
209 Jane ... 84, 86
justice ... 220, 221 lady ... 13, 125, 196 learning ... 231
interactions ... 86, 101 January ... 156, 235
juxtaposing ... 173 laid ... 139 leave ... 21, 36, 96, 142, 145,
interest ... 9, 235 Jenkins ... 220
K LAMOUREUX ... 4, 6, 9, 146, 170, 188, 227,
interim ... 56 Jeremy ... 30, 219, 231, 245
Karen ... 92, 97, 101, 190 14-20, 22-31, 34, 35, 248
Interior ... 49, 50 Jesus ... 30
Kauvar ... 82, 84-86, 218 37-43, 47, 52, 53, 56, leaving ... 92, 96, 105, 112,
international ... 3 Jewish ... 163
Kel ... 7 57, 63, 68, 69, 71, 72, 145, 146
Internet ... 11 jibes ... 212
Ken ... 93, 94, 96, 101, 190, 74, 77, ... 80, 82, 83, led ... 104, 105, 112
interstate ... 115, 135, 136 Jim ... 182
215, 217, 223, 226, 85, 87, 92, 97, left ... 20, 22, 36, 103, 116,
intertwined ... 17 Jimmy ... 125
227 106-109, 111-115, 164, 181, 191, 201,
interview ... 14-16, 23, 27, job ... 209
Kevlar ... 164 117-119, 121, 123-127, 216, 217
28, 47, 152, 154, 159, Joe ... 47, 102, 137
key ... 100, 185 129, 134-137, 139, ... legal ... 48, 80, 224
163, 164, 166 John ... 12, 14, 66, 77, 144
kick ... 20, 75 142, 143, 145, 146, legitimate ... 166
interviewed ... 151, 164, Johnny ... 207
kid ... 12 149, 151-157, 159, leisure ... 62
178, 181 Johnson ... 125
kids ... 105 164, 170, 171, 173, Les ... 29, 30, 33, 35, 36,
intimidate ... 168 join ... 41, 122
kill ... 34, 44, 45, 49, 77, 83, 178-180, 183-189, 192, 103, 231, 244, 245
intimidating ... 19, 168 joining ... 41
84, 126, 133, 158, 189, ... 200, 201, 205, 207, letters ... 116
intrigued ... 123 joke ... 78, 144
191, 192, 196-199, 208, 216, 220, 223, lever ... 18
introduce ... 128 Jones ... 57-59, 165, 166
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
259
6/5/12 - index
217, 227 mea ... 175 172, 175, ... 176, 218
Liberty ... 61, 78, 100, 144, Lonnie ... 60, 61, 65, 73,
make ... 8, 9, 12, 22, 48, 60, means ... 197, 199, 211, 226 militias ... 60, 62
145, 160, 170, 171 96, 99-101, 184, 190,
69, 80, 83, 87, 89, 92, meant ... 130, 210, 212, 229 millimeter ... 110, 177, 193,
license ... 87 209
97, 106, 110, 113, 115, mechanical ... 128 194, 202, 207
licensed ... 15 look ... 4, 48, 61, 69, 79,
118, 123, 124, 133, media ... 111 mimics ... 144
lick ... 158 107, 108, 113, 131,
165, ... 193, 195, 196, meet ... 41, 60, 74, 128, 129, minded ... 37, 49, 50
light ... 147, 190, 192 173, 181, 182, 190,
204, 206, 233, 237, 186, 229 minds ... 248
lighting ... 46, 47 192, 203, 211, 222
238, 240 meeting ... 24, 25, 29-33, 35, mine ... 94, 133, 148-150,
lights ... 47, 144, 153, 156, looked ... 68, 79
making ... 9, 83, 102, 110, 39, 40, 45, 55, 60-62, 191
170, 171, 185, 186, looking ... 5, 14, 21, 41, 66,
166, 168, 199, 200, 65, 73-76, 93-97, 99, Minimal ... 56
198, 208, 211, 216, 87, 103, 117, 147,
209, 213, 230 101, 102, 106, 114, minor ... 233
224 191, 192, 214, 221,
Malik ... 57-59 125, ... 128, 138, 145, minus ... 130
liked ... 104 228, 232
man ... 14, 41, 56, 57, 81, 208, 228-231, 233-235, Miscon ... 78
limitation ... 154-156 lose ... 9
172, 174, 197, 204, 243-245 misconduct ... 78, 79, 81, 85,
limited ... 82, 87, 113, 156, loss ... 87
217, 243 meetings ... 40, 92, 93 92, 243
167, 237, 243 lost ... 108
Mandela ... 5 member ... 190, 220, 222 misdemeanor ... 75, 78-80,
limiting ... 153, 243 lot ... 5, 7, 16, 21, 27, 40,
mankind ... 216 members ... 92, 94, 119, 145, 90, 91, 93, 98
line ... 110, 133, 169, 47, 51, 56, 68, 69, 83,
manual ... 9 223 misinformation ... 136
195-197, 211, 226 90, 111, 116, 122,
manuals ... 109, 110 memories ... 106 misleading ... 180
lined ... 194 125, 145, 151, 174,
many ... 4, 55, 61, 65, 85, memory ... 65 missed ... 166
lines ... 136, 195, 226 182, 189, 190, ... 198,
106, 116, 126, 127, men ... 45, 198 misspeaking ... 164
link ... 166, 167 205, 210, 213, 217,
156, 175, 193, 194, mens ... 115 misstating ... 238
linking ... 166 224, 225, 241
209 mentioning ... 187 mistaken ... 136
links ... 167 Lots ... 183
marathon ... 120 mentor ... 40 misunder ... 239
list ... 3, 49, 51, 63, 106, love ... 16, 99
March ... 91, 121, 128, 129, mess ... 123, 170, 171 misunderstanding ... 135,
107, 118, 119, 139, loved ... 106
143, 160, 163, 172 message ... 24, 130, 212 239
193, 243, 244 low ... 240
Maria ... 37 messages ... 117 mixed ... 85, 136
listed ... 171, 181, 191 lunch ... 39, 134
marked ... 219 messaging ... 128 mobile ... 104
listened ... 30, 61, 154, 208, Luntz ... 59
Marlin ... 5 messing ... 209 modeled ... 4
227-229, 239 lurking ... 212, 214
Marmot ... 130 met ... 39, 54, 56, 58, 59, mold ... 88
listening ... 78, 167, 230, Luther ... 4, 5
marshal ... 226 128, 129, 186, 218, momentary ... 4
231, 234 lying ... 105, 205
marshals ... 24, 25, 224, 226 219, 227 money ... 87, 103, 122
lists ... 87, 116 Lyle ... 82
metal ... 150 monitor ... 201
lived ... 53, 55, 108, 148 M Marti ... 13, 20, 47, 55, 92,
96, 104, 105, 141, 142, Meyer ... 129 monitoring ... 234
lives ... 169, 204, 214 Macbook ... 142, 143
147, 159, 192, 200, mght ... 103 Montana ... 153
load ... 127, 128, 133 MacDonald ... 28, 169
201, 214, 215, 220, mic ... 117, 136, 235, 241 month ... 16, 51, 64, 141,
loaded ... 109, 161, 202, machine ... 5, 8-10, 224
226 Michael ... 49-51, 56, 107, 225
207, 223, 227 machinery ... 9
Martin ... 4, 5, 220 112, 113, 169 months ... 13, 209
lobby ... 87 mad ... 34, 99
mask ... 7 microphone ... 69, 116, 138, moose ... 6
local ... 196-199 Madam ... 140, 147, 153,
masks ... 7, 177 140 moral ... 4, 98, 203
locals ... 196, 201 156, 170, 171, 185,
mass ... 119 Mike ... 51, 107, 113, 169 morning ... 3, 43, 99, 101,
location ... 16, 108 186, 190, 208, 211,
matched ... 129 miles ... 92 248
lock ... 177 216, 224
matching ... 72 mili ... 21 motion ... 113
long ... 9, 16, 21, 35, 36, 39, magazine ... 9
material ... 138, 150 military ... 22, 24, 165 motive ... 68
50, 53, 61, 76, 95, 97, mags ... 181
matters ... 69 militia ... 12, 38, 40, 42, 45, motorcycle ... 19
98, 100, 102, 118, 136, mailing ... 119
Mauser ... 6 59, 60, 62, 64-66, 73, mounted ... 5
146, 167, 188, 192, main ... 104, 110
McConahy ... 82, 89, 144, 76, 92-95, 100, mouth ... 36
239, ... 241, 244 mainly ... 86
147, 169 118-120, 145, 168-170, move ... 26, 35, 62, 105,
longer ... 21 Major ... 62, 100, 101, 195,
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
260
6/5/12 - index
obligation ... 4, 98 203, 204, ... 207, 208, 189, 200, 211, 231,
113, 120, 137, 154, 174, 197 172, 175, 176, 181,
observe ... 35, 36 211, 215, 217, 222, 244, 248
moved ... 26, 27, 50, 55, 63, 188, 193, 195, 198,
observed ... 36 228, 235-239, 241, P22 ... 10
92, 99, 105, 108, 109, 199, 202, 207, ... 209,
obstruction ... 90 244, 248 painting ... 124
142, 148, 185 213, 216, 230, 245,
OC ... 27, 177, 193, 202 ones ... 61, 65, 66, 82, 133, pair ... 131, 168
movement ... 40, 118, 175, 248
occasion ... 47, 151 178, 194, 206 pallet ... 148
224 nights ... 139, 193
occasional ... 51 ongoing ... 43, 66 pals ... 204
movements ... 81 nine ... 167, 222
occasions ... 106 ooh ... 122 pants ... 79
movies ... 61, 65 nobody ... 97, 132
occur ... 129 open ... 41, 55, 84, 151, 161, papers ... 118, 121
moving ... 137 nonlethal ... 199, 200
occurred ... 32, 73, 96 248 paperwork ... 82, 90, 163,
MP ... 21, 24 Nonresponsive ... 4, 25, 29,
OCS ... 14-16, 18, 22-24, opening ... 33 164
MPs ... 165 30, 38-40, 43, 52, 56,
27-29, 43, 51, 159, operating ... 88, 226, 243 parade ... 118
much ... 23, 28, 41, 50, 56, 63, 82, 87, 112, 126,
163, 164, 166, 167 operation ... 161 parentheses ... 195
77, 106, 116, 122, 138, 145, 149
October ... 182 operative ... 24 parents ... 15, 16, 55
195, 196, 212, 225, noon ... 69, 141
offer ... 70, 123, 140, 184, opponent ... 37, 52, 68 parking ... 47, 198
226, 229, 242 Norm ... 60
231 opponents ... 199 Partially ... 174
multiple ... 70, 72 normal ... 130
offered ... 68, 69, 104, 153, opposed ... 15, 139 participate ... 4
murder ... 147 North ... 32, 53, 63, 104,
179, 184, 185, 241 option ... 4 participation ... 81
N 128, 185
offering ... 69-71, 129, 233, order ... 3, 18, 137, 211, 217, particulars ... 209
named ... 53, 59 notepad ... 50, 78, 79
245 222, 224-226, 232, parties ... 72, 240
names ... 50, 147, 219-221 notes ... 116, 117, 161, 162,
offers ... 152, 154, 220, 223, 233, 240 parts ... 9, 57, 120, 202
Nanette ... 125 179, 192, 200, 206
233 ordered ... 11 party ... 57, 68, 74, 218
narrow ... 157, 193, 233 Nottingham ... 77
Office ... 13, 21, 116, 120, orders ... 170, 174, 202, 203, pass ... 155
natural ... 107, 173, 217, 218 November ... 43, 151, 154,
226, 240 206, 210, 217, 226, passing ... 51, 114
near ... 25, 214 162, 188, 189, 203,
officer ... 78, 160-162 243 past ... 4, 15, 68, 214
needed ... 76, 94, 103, 108, 211
officers ... 37, 226 organization ... 111 patriot ... 187
119, 164, 183, 192, numbers ... 175
organizations ... 81 patted ... 162
206 O offices ... 116
official ... 24, 136 original ... 233, 234, 236, Paul ... 82
neighbor ... 17, 55 obey ... 202
officials ... 77 237, 239, 240 pay ... 78, 103
neighbors ... 196 object ... 139, 165, 220,
often ... 42, 43, 49, 64, 132, ourselves ... 45, 146 paying ... 103
Neither ... 13 223
248 outburst ... 30 peaceful ... 5
Nelson ... 5 objection ... 4, 6, 9, 14-20,
old ... 53, 121, 137, 145, outfitting ... 182 Peacemakers ... 42, 100, 118
Nenana ... 56 22-31, 34, 35, 37-40,
148, 196 Outgoing ... 213 people ... 4, 19, 21, 32, 37,
nest ... 177, 178, 180, 181, 42, 43, 47, 52, 53, 56,
Olson ... 41, 56, 59-61, 65, outgunned ... 88, 157, 158 39-42, 44, 45, 49, 51,
202, 207, 210 57, 63, 68, 69, 71, 74,
67, 69, 73-76, 94, 96, outmanned ... 88, 157, 158 56, 62, 64, 66, 83, 84,
nests ... 44, 110, 150, 178, 80, 82, ... 83, 85, 87,
97, 101, 102, 104, 106, overlap ... 236 88, 94, 98, 106, 108,
194, 202 92, 107-109, 111-115,
108, 112, 113, overlapping ... 235, 236, 238 114, 116, ... 118, 132,
Network ... 155, 156, 171, 118, 119, 121,
122-124, 126, ... overlogged ... 128 136, 168, 171, 172,
172 123-126, 129, 134,
128-130, 174, 184, Overruled ... 15, 17, 19, 25, 174, 175, 177,
neutral ... 16 138, 139, 143, 145, ...
185, 187, 207, 208 26, 31, 40, 41, 53, 159, 189-191, 197, 199,
Nevertheless ... 239 146, 149, 153-157,
one ... 3, 4, 9, 12, 13, 18, 25, 180, 188, 244, 245 200, 202, 207, 209, ...
new ... 17, 62, 88, 167, 248 159, 164, 180,
61, 66, 68, 70, 71, 76, own ... 4-7, 108, 110, 111, 215, 217, 220, 225,
news ... 111, 248 183-187, 205, 215,
80, 82, 85, 86, 88, 89, 145, 153, 171, 176, 226, 228, 238
newspaper ... 173 220, 223, 237, 238,
93, 110, 115, 137, 143, 183, 195, 197, pepper ... 110
nice ... 86, 216 243, 245
150, ... 151, 153, 156, 215-217, 235 perhap ... 212
Nichols ... 102, 137, 220 ... objections 67, 71, 77,
162, 165, 169-172, owned ... 11, 63, 103, 121 Perhaps ... 49, 155, 214, 237
nickname ... 30, 127 244
night ... 32, 46, 84, 88, 97, objective ... 96, 178 175, 176, 179, 183, P perimeter ... 215
187, 190, 193, 199, p.m. ... 41, 134, 138, 141, period ... 16, 56, 66, 118,
112, 160, 162, 163, objector ... 206
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
261
6/5/12 - index
pray ... 94 profile ... 132 questioned ... 68

156 play ... 11, 21, 67, 70, 153,
precious ... 105 profit ... 87 quick ... 242
permitted ... 236 155, 157, 170, 178,
precipitating ... 102 program ... 43 quiet ... 30, 31
persistence ... 4, 5 216, 230-232,
prejudice ... 243 progress ... 196 quoted ... 173
person ... 176, 191, 195 235-237, 239, 241,
personal ... 52, 53, 103, 220, 245, 247 preliminary ... 3 progressive ... 46 R
premature ... 17 prohibited ... 210 R.J. ... 14
223 played ... 72, 153, 154, 157,
prep ... 193 project ... 9 Radio ... 42, 120, 155, 156
personally ... 63, 183 158, 160, 163, 164,
preparation ... 240 projectiles ... 150 radios ... 181, 183
personnel ... 226 167-169, 171, 172,
prepared ... 191, 192 projection ... 216 raided ... 91, 128
ph ... 7, 49, 59 179, 184, 185, 207,
presence ... 115, 153, 155, projector ... 192 railroaded ... 90, 98
Philip ... 12 232-234, 238, ...
231 prompted ... 21, 60 raise ... 80, 90, 134
phone ... 23, 51, 57, 58, 102, 240-243, 246, 247
present ... 3, 6, 30, 45, 67, proof ... 135 raised ... 248
116, 171, 186, 187, player ... 11
69, 134, 138, 139, 141, proper ... 70 raising ... 146
221 playing ... 12, 155, 156,
159, 189, 190, 208, properly ... 134, 243 Rambo ... 94, 98
photo ... 152, 159, 190, 200 166, 177, 242, 243
209, 231, 244 property ... 63, 104, 107 range ... 194
Photos ... 159 plays ... 240
presentation ... 237 propose ... 237 rank ... 62
phrase ... 94, 95 pleased ... 20
presented ... 138, 237, 240 proposing ... 238 ranking ... 62
physically ... 36 plot ... 189
presenting ... 233 propriety ... 203 ranks ... 174
pick ... 9, 103, 109, 117, 185 pocket ... 79, 161
presiding ... 3 prosecution ... 238 rather ... 23, 54, 69, 84
picked ... 128 poetry ... 116
pretrial ... 216 prosecutor ... 38, 77, 144 re ... 219, 246
picking ... 130, 177, 197 pointed ... 138
pretzel ... 178, 207 protect ... 226, 233 rea ... 115
picnic ... 25 points ... 82, 98, 102, 191,
prevent ... 4, 199 protective ... 222, 224-226, reach ... 108
picture ... 142, 149, 166, 167 196, 200, 202
PREVIOUSLY ... 3, 32, 66, 232, 233 reaching ... 106
pictures ... 105, 117, 144, Pole ... 53, 63, 104, 185
156, 245 protest ... 120 reads ... 226
147, 194 police ... 7, 8, 78, 79, 160,
price ... 181 protesting ... 120 ready ... 59, 103, 248
piece ... 9, 46, 235 172, 176, 183, 227
prices ... 181 Protests ... 120 reason ... 18, 19, 21, 22, 30,
pieces ... 9, 167 policies ... 15, 23, 24, 164
pricing ... 181 proud ... 168 37, 61, 66, 69, 74, 75,
pin ... 12, 193, 194 policy ... 46
primers ... 150 provide ... 106, 237, 239 94, 110, 128, 129, 146,
pineapple ... 61, 65, 66, 130 political ... 18, 37, 77, 142,
Prince ... 77, 144 provided ... 90, 156, 235 159, 166, 207, 233
pineapples ... 61, 65 165
principled ... 4, 5 providing ... 102 reasons ... 9, 88
pins ... 118 portion ... 184
principles ... 5, 42, 45 provocative ... 74 reassured ... 20, 35
pipe ... 9 portions ... 234, 245
printed ... 139 provost ... 224, 226 rebut ... 68
Pirate ... 120 posed ... 238
prior ... 41, 54, 68, 185 psychologist ... 26 rebuttal ... 241
pistol ... 10, 78, 193 position ... 94, 98, 186,
private ... 62, 171, 176, 182, public ... 77, 107, 136, 151, recalling ... 8
place ... 12, 38, 131, 146, 221, 239
215 171 recant ... 159
148, 182 possess ... 137
privates ... 175 publicly ... 152 received ... 139, 212, 236
places ... 42, 149, 183 possession ... 80, 131
pro ... 217 puffs ... 181 receiving ... 74
plain ... 200 post ... 24, 78, 119, 165,
prob ... 212 pull ... 12, 36, 44, 88, 110, recent ... 68, 139
Plainclothes ... 200 217, 225, 227
probation ... 216 140, 193, 194, 206 recessed ... 67, 138, 189
plan ... 34, 45, 49, 75, 76, Postcards ... 120
problem ... 25, 58, 66, 134, purchase ... 12, 65 recesses ... 248
90, 95-98, 145, 189, poster ... 77, 138, 139, 141,
170, 172, 198, 240, pursuant ... 137 reckless ... 98
202 142, 144, 147
242 push ... 166 recognize ... 152, 154, 232
planet ... 103 posters ... 78
problems ... 47, 86, 108, 128 pushing ... 4, 90, 102, 164, recognized ... 130
planned ... 193 powder ... 131, 132, 148
proceedings ... 81, 89, 100, 207 recommended ... 26
planning ... 66, 96, 145-147 power ... 121, 125, 173
248 putting ... 192, 214 reconstructing ... 214
plans ... 84, 92, 95, 99, 145, powwow ... 32
produce ... 130 Putty ... 149 reconvene ... 134
146 practical ... 191
plastic ... 133, 194 practice ... 122, 150 produced ... 218, 219, 223 Q recorded ... 159, 229, 236,
professional ... 16, 52 quest ... 170 239, 240, 243
platform ... 80 practices ... 120
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
262
6/5/12 - index
Robert ... 3, 14 scared ... 15, 17, 21, 23, 24, 181
recording ... 67, 155, 156, rephrases ... 134
Robin ... 77 74, 168, 210 selling ... 103, 129, 149
161, 167, 173, 202, replay ... 246
rock ... 83 scary ... 24, 216 senators ... 116
208, 228-230, 233-240, replica ... 9
Rohner ... 57-59 Schaeffer ... 3, 5, 25, 36, 49, sending ... 103, 169, 170,
243, 246 report ... 28, 29, 74, 87, 97
Rolly ... 237 52, 69, 78, 179, 192, 180
recordings ... 207, 208, reporter ... 152
Ron ... 16-18, 20, 26, 27, 55, 200, 201, 204, 220, sent ... 24, 97, 116, 171, 172,
235-238 reporting ... 87
56, 108 222, 226, 242 213
recreate ... 81 representation ... 233
room ... 107, 202, 239 schedule ... 128 separate ... 238
recreated ... 139 request ... 65, 81, 106
roots ... 224 scheduled ... 32, 89, 93 sergeant ... 62, 162, 163
red ... 109, 110, 149 requested ... 14, 65, 237
rope ... 110 scheme ... 69 series ... 211
redo ... 101 requests ... 60, 81, 230
rotating ... 149 Schoenberg ... 86-88, 157, serious ... 21, 80, 98
referenced ... 107, 151, 233 require ... 123
round ... 207, 210 158 seriously ... 221
references ... 119 requirements ... 137
roundabout ... 242 scope ... 7, 234 serve ... 217, 226, 233
referencing ... 107, 119, 130, research ... 212, 224, 248
rounds ... 7, 112, 177, 178, screen ... 139, 140, 152, 154, served ... 91, 217
233 researched ... 87
202, 207 201 service ... 217
referred ... 138, 139, 174, residence ... 41, 96, 98-101,
route ... 213 screened ... 42 Services ... 13, 16
175 108, 113, 121, 126
routine ... 42 screener ... 49 servings ... 217
reflect ... 35, 117 resolve ... 239
Ruger ... 6, 7 scrutiny ... 171 session ... 3, 67, 134, 138,
refurbished ... 124 resolved ... 13, 28, 43, 98
rule ... 41, 87, 197, 215, 237, scuff ... 53 189
refusal ... 163 resort ... 44, 195
238, 242 search ... 161, 240 set ... 28, 67, 81, 98, 121,
refused ... 164 Resources ... 107
rules ... 41, 199, 215-217 searches ... 147 127, 129, 177, 198,
regards ... 190 respect ... 32, 157
ruling ... 242 seat ... 165 215-217
register ... 115, 137 respected ... 4
rulings ... 238 seated ... 3, 67, 138, 189 Seth ... 13, 15, 18, 19, 21,
registered ... 136 respectful ... 197
rummage ... 9 second ... 12, 100, 196, 242 43, 55, 108, 163, 220,
regular ... 25, 37 respond ... 171
rumors ... 188 seconds ... 66, 122, 162, 218 226
regulated ... 121 responding ... 160, 161, 233
run ... 9, 37, 97, 210 secret ... 22 sets ... 238
regulation ... 115 response ... 3, 25, 76, 90,
running ... 92, 95, 214 secretly ... 229 settle ... 103
reject ... 206 212, 230, 247
RUSA ... 186 securing ... 215 settling ... 103
rekindling ... 74 responsibility ... 203
S security ... 45, 47, 48, 84-86, seven ... 50, 82, 99, 102,
relation ... 27, 213 responsible ... 153, 203
S.C. ... 222 132, 134, 191, 193, 192, 222
relationship ... 38, 52, 53, 55 responsive ... 230
sack ... 194 195, 197-199, 202, several ... 9, 106
relationships ... 106 restraining ... 217
safe ... 63, 123, 181, 210, 206, 207, 209, 214 sexy ... 131
relayed ... 24, 76, 90 restrict ... 106
211 see ... 22, 27, 49, 51, 54, 60, shaking ... 114, 212
release ... 216 restrictions ... 114
safety ... 214 70, 71, 76, 83, 86, 89, shall ... 226
Relevance ... 15, 53, 152, result ... 13, 93, 99, 228
Safeway ... 212-214 97, 103, 110, 112, 113, share ... 69
186, 220, 223 retain ... 234
Saiga ... 6 124, 129, 140, 144, shed ... 53, 63, 64, 104, 105,
reliance ... 136 return ... 146
sailboat ... 111 152, ... 154, 157, 159, 108, 148, 149, 183,
reloading ... 132, 150 revolving ... 149
Salcha ... 92 173, 176, 181, 185, 186
remainder ... 103 reward ... 77, 144
Sam ... 210 192-194, 200, 201, shells ... 148, 149
remembering ... 125, 143, rhythm ... 52
sanding ... 124 211, 219, 221, 222, shenanigan ... 48
190, 214 Rick ... 49, 226
sat ... 18, 25, 239 230 Sheriff ... 77, 144, 147
remembers ... 163 rid ... 230
satire ... 77 seek ... 38, 39 shift ... 5, 114
remind ... 173 ride ... 129
satisfied ... 91, 156 seen ... 12, 51, 57, 77, 189, shifty ... 178, 228
Remington ... 5-7 rifle ... 5, 6, 193, 207
Saturday ... 43 205, 218, 229 shirt ... 227
rendezvous ... 215 rise ... 3, 67, 138, 189, 248
Saturdays ... 43 segment ... 70 shocking ... 88
Rensel ... 37 rises ... 201
save ... 111 seized ... 11, 116, 132, 143 shoot ... 10, 46, 83, 110,
Rensels ... 49 risk ... 95, 98, 102
saw ... 10, 27, 79, 127, 167, self ... 199 133, 191, 192, 195,
repeating ... 248 Road ... 53, 183
173, 194, 209 sell ... 12, 66, 103, 130, 131, 196, 198, 200, 201,
rephra ... 145 Rob ... 113
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
263
6/5/12 - index
sphere ... 88 stop ... 52, 56, 59, 80, 133, surfing ... 26
210 smoke ... 12, 194
spilled ... 28 163, 196, 198, 199, surplus ... 66
shooting ... 109, 112, 133, smokeless ... 131, 132, 148
spinning ... 224 201, 202, 214 surprise ... 228
195, 198, 229 smooth ... 20
sponsoring ... 59 stopped ... 56, 57, 76 surveillance ... 56
shootout ... 25, 98 Snake ... 77, 144
spool ... 110 store ... 63, 66, 149 suspected ... 87
shop ... 113, 229 snap ... 12
spoon ... 150 stored ... 148, 149 Sustained ... 6, 9, 16, 19, 23,
shortly ... 13, 32, 141, 148 sneak ... 104
spouting ... 102 storm ... 193 24, 30, 34, 35, 38, 40,
shot ... 110, 154, 165 snippet ... 233
spray ... 110 story ... 8, 53, 162, 187, 188 42, 56, 74, 80, 82, 83,
shotgun ... 5-7 snippets ... 230
Springs ... 53 straight ... 213 85, 93, 107-109, 123,
show ... 43, 48, 66, 89-91, snowed ... 205
Squad ... 167 street ... 55, 204 124, ... 126, 138, 145,
101, 103, 127, 149, snuck ... 105
staff ... 76, 100, 101 stretch ... 99 164, 183, 187, 205
152, 160, 196, 198, snuff ... 103
stages ... 125 stricken ... 230 Sutherland ... 178, 180, 199
199, 201, 218, 219, soapbox ... 80
staging ... 202 strike ... 35, 113, 230 swarm ... 20
221, 230, 241 Social ... 15, 16, 24, 41,
stand ... 35, 41, 68, 125, 127, string ... 127, 167 SWORN ... 3
... showdown 165 111
167, 168, 191, 205, stripey ... 79 system ... 62, 80, 86-88, 90
showed ... 17, 18, 23, 26, 30, Socially ... 61
33, 47, 96, 97, 101, soft ... 227 237 strong ... 19 T
standing ... 78 structural ... 86 table ... 18, 25, 76
122, 167, 227 Soldwedel ... 147
stapled ... 222 stuck ... 237 Taboo ... 48
showing ... 91, 95, 97 sole ... 96
start ... 19, 44, 62, 67, 72, stumped ... 9 Tactical ... 32
shows ... 9, 66, 156, 242 Solo ... 127
74, 83, 90, 92, 102, style ... 114 tags ... 58
shut ... 14, 36 son ... 18, 20, 23, 25, 52,
104, 156, 168, 194 styled ... 10 tailored ... 193
side ... 181, 191, 221 164, 166, 226
started ... 9, 189, 195 subordinates ... 189, 203 taking ... 98, 161, 162, 166,
sidekick ... 30 Songs ... 116, 119
starting ... 83, 221 subpoena ... 135 171, 203, 233
sideline ... 226 soulless ... 215
Starts ... 118, 196, 197 subpoenaed ... 135 Tannerite ... 108, 109, 177
sign ... 120 sound ... 156, 165, 221, 230
stash ... 182, 183, 185 succeed ... 4 tantamount ... 4
signature ... 222 sounds ... 114, 157, 194,
state ... 13, 15, 22, 25, 60, successful ... 4 tape ... 109, 110, 238, 240,
signatures ... 221 221, 244
92, 136-138, 146, 169, succinctly ... 120 243
signed ... 116, 219, 220, 222, soup ... 244
197 sue ... 225 target ... 51, 139
224 souvenir ... 12
statement ... 68, 69, 159, 171 sufficient ... 150 taser ... 181
signing ... 221 sovereign ... 217
statements ... 68, 70, 87, 185 suggested ... 95, 154 Task ... 100
silencer ... 10, 11 sovereignty ... 224
station ... 21, 45, 52, 55, 120 suggestion ... 125 tasked ... 234, 239
silencers ... 129, 130 spark ... 166
stations ... 42, 120, 155 suggests ... 135 tax ... 107, 119, 120
Silly ... 149 special ... 42, 47, 172, 199,
status ... 85, 237 sum ... 97 taxi ... 104
similar ... 182, 193 220, 221
statutes ... 216 summer ... 158 team ... 151, 186-188, 191,
simply ... 245 specific ... 8, 29, 46, 74,
statutory ... 80 Sunday ... 73 193, 195, 197, 199,
single ... 118 126, 168
stay ... 36, 37, 73, 97-99, sunglasses ... 130 202, 206, 209, 214
sitting ... 229 specificity ... 228
146 super ... 73, 74, 86 teams ... 193
situation ... 18, 112, 164, Spectra ... 110
stayed ... 82, 100, 104, 146 supervising ... 239 Tec ... 7
165, 172, 193, 201, speculate ... 22, 225
staying ... 70, 100, 184 supervision ... 234 technically ... 91, 215
235, 237 speculation ... 25, 34, 97,
Stedler ... 50 supervisor ... 21 technique ... 88
six ... 12, 36, 39, 50, 182, 225
STEN ... 8, 10, 114 supplies ... 109 television ... 215
222 speculative ... 56
step ... 4, 29, 44, 84, 131, support ... 76 telling ... 33, 123, 161, 191,
sixth ... 221 speech ... 152
134 suppose ... 157, 172 207, 215, 216
SKROCKI ... 3, 69, 143, 239 speeches ... 42, 121,
steps ... 180 supposed ... 31, 43, 127, tells ... 215, 233
SKS ... 7 151-153, 174, 189
Steve ... 23, 38, 39 137, 142, 171, 195, temperate ... 203
slices ... 10 spelling ... 190
sticker ... 142 198 Ten ... 188, 222
slit ... 90 spend ... 51, 145
sting ... 178, 180 supposedly ... 101 tense ... 219
Slope ... 128 spendy ... 122
stirring ... 212 sur ... 241 terabytes ... 205
slowly ... 8 spent ... 12, 50, 224
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
264
6/5/12 - index
transpired ... 15, 16, 37, 39, two ... 12, 21, 51, 54, 57, 64, 209, 243, 245
term ... 62 175, 181, 188, ... 211,
236 66, 102, 122, 127, 128, versus ... 12, 87, 88
terms ... 235 219, 224, 227, 229,
travel ... 136 132, 175, 176, 194, vest ... 47, 130
terrorism ... 167 243
traveling ... 115 204, 212, 214, 222, victory ... 4
test ... 169 timeline ... 20, 21
TRAVERSO ... 3, 5, 6, 10, 229, 235, ... 236, 238, video ... 153, 154, 170, 171
testifies ... 239 times ... 42, 43, 55, 64, 73,
14-20, 22-31, 34-36, 241 videotaped ... 16
testimony ... 11, 51, 68, 137, 85, 126, 127, 138,
38-43, 48, 52, 53, 56, types ... 12 views ... 69, 93
147, 226, 242 214, 226
57, 63-65, 67, 69-72, typically ... 63, 148 villainizing ... 166
text ... 117, 128, 130, 180, tiny ... 233
74, 77, ... 80, 82, 83, tyranny ... 175, 176 violate ... 48
203, 212, 213 title ... 3
texted ... 76, 182, 183, 211 today ... 141, 162, 189 85, 87, 93, 97, U violates ... 238
106-109, 111-121, U.S. ... 24, 25, 116 violating ... 210
texting ... 215 Tom ... 50
123-127, 129, 134-146, UC ... 187 violation ... 210, 216
texts ... 181, 211, 215 tomorrow ... 105, 248
151-156, 159, 162, ... UCC ... 187 violence ... 4, 44, 83, 90, 94,
Thanks ... 141, 144, 171, Tons ... 81
163, 180, 184, 187, Uhh ... 247 102, 103, 164, 167,
247 took ... 9, 19, 38, 79, 109,
188, 200, 201, 220, ultimatums ... 76 171, 207
theme ... 189 114, 167
223, 227, 233-236, umbilical ... 241 violent ... 30, 90, 204
theories ... 82 tool ... 166
238-242 unable ... 23 violently ... 34
theory ... 81 toolbox ... 109, 110, 148,
treat ... 218 uncover ... 224 visit ... 14, 18, 20, 21, 24,
these ... 8, 45, 53, 55, 60, 78, 149
treated ... 136 Underground ... 155, 156, 26, 51, 59, 113, 114,
80-83, 93, 102, 103, tools ... 64, 106
tree ... 106, 110, 172 171, 172 224, 227
106, 108, 111, 118, top ... 144, 180, 200, 201,
trial ... 69, 75, 89, 115, 240 underlying ... 234 visited ... 17, 18, 116
119, 121, 123, 124, 224
trigger ... 98, 102 understood ... 33, 114 Vogler ... 47
129, 131, ... 136, 149, topic ... 230
trim ... 124 unheated ... 149 voice ... 155, 232, 235
153, 173, 182, 183, toss ... 66
Trina ... 50 uniform ... 7, 79, 86, 196 voices ... 208, 232
185, 189, 196, 204, touch ... 37, 52, 95, 103,
tripod ... 5 unit ... 21 VOIR ... 143, 231
205, 221, 233, 237, 131, 218
Trooper ... 19, 51-55, 59, 79, United ... 3, 67, 138, 189 volatile ... 19
240 touching ... 78
86-88, 120, 157, 158 units ... 169-172 volunteer ... 180
Thesing ... 96, 101, 215, tough ... 41
troopers ... 19, 20, 52-54, 57 universally ... 216 volunteers ... 191, 192
217, 226, 227 towards ... 37, 130, 196
trouble ... 10, 53, 172 University ... 213, 214 voted ... 218, 219, 223
third ... 87, 221, 222 town ... 24, 26, 55, 78, 92,
thorough ... 114, 116 104, 121, 128, 197, troubles ... 47 unknown ... 135, 137 W
truck ... 103, 104, 129-131, unless ... 146, 153, 173, 191, Wainwright ... 20, 21, 218,
thousands ... 49, 224 213
148, 209 192, 195, 196, 198 219, 223, 226
threat ... 84, 132 track ... 72, 181
trucker ... 104, 105, unlucky ... 49 Wait ... 17, 21, 22, 68, 70,
threaten ... 18, 36, 48, 87, 93 traded ... 113
127-131, 141 unravel ... 83 112, 135, 166, 215,
three ... 4, 13, 43, 64, 105, trailer ... 11, 104, 105, 109,
truly ... 237 unto ... 216 229, 241, 244
127-129, 222, 231, 245 128, 131, 132,
trusted ... 209 upper ... 181 waited ... 211
throat ... 90 148-150, 194
truth ... 68, 69, 205, 237 urgent ... 101 waiting ... 21, 127, 141, 188,
throw ... 12, 122, 193 train ... 94
TSA ... 47-49 using ... 25, 92, 166, 168 227
thrower ... 110, 133 training ... 12, 66, 119, 123
thumbcuffs ... 177, 183 trains ... 166 TUESDAY ... 3 V walked ... 58
tumultuous ... 146 valuable ... 103, 105 Wall ... 16-20, 26, 27, 55,
Tim ... 86, 186-188 tran ... 244
Tupperware ... 218 value ... 212, 216, 241, 245 108
time ... 16, 17, 21, 29, 31, transcribed ... 235, 240
turn ... 164, 171 van ... 195 Walter ... 10
32, 46, 48, 50, 51, 54, transcript ... 69, 71, 72,
turned ... 37, 84, 98 vehicle ... 79, 92 Walther ... 10
56, 57, 67-70, 74-77, 155, 166-169, 205,
Turner ... 186-188 Venting ... 100 wanting ... 80, 212
80, 83, 89, 91, 100, 210, 229, 230, 235,
Turning ... 98, 188, 189 venue ... 80 wants ... 83
102, 106-108, ... 111, 237, 244, 246
TV ... 43, 156, 215 verbatim ... 191 War ... 3, 5, 10, 19, 44, 74
114, 118, 121, 127, transcripts ... 156, 173, 230
twice ... 186 Vernon ... 61, 65, 67, 69, 73, warned ... 19, 197
129, 132, 134, 145, transferred ... 46
Twitter ... 95 99, 100, 153, 184, 185, warning ... 19
156, 157, 166, 173, transmitter ... 121
A & T TRANSCRIPTS
265
6/5/12 - index
warrant ... 80, 91, 92, 95, withdraw ... 153 Yvonne ... 15
161 WITNESS ... 3, 6, 15, 17, Z
warrants ... 31, 229, 230, 20, 22, 23, 28, 30, 31, zany ... 82
232, 233, 246-248 34, 40, 41, 43, 63, 68, Zerbe ... 30, 35, 103, 219,
warring ... 225 70, 106, 117, 118, 231, 244, 245
Washington ... 238 120, 123, ... 127, 135, zeros ... 175
watch ... 150 138, 142, 149, 151, Zickma ... 49, 226
watchdog ... 171 156, 159, 188, 200, Zone ... 88, 229, 240
water ... 120 208, 215, 220,
wave ... 120 230-232, 241, 242
Wayne ... 12, 66 ... word 67, 74, 76, 94, 204
Weapon ... 137, 161, 167, words ... 41, 74, 83, 119,
227 152, 153, 198, 203,
weapons ... 62, 78, 79, 81, 228, 248
85, 92, 115, 136, 137, wore ... 47
182, 183 work ... 9, 10, 16, 41, 71,
wear ... 47, 118, 130, 221, 98, 105, 110, 121,
227 192, 195, 248
wearing ... 25, 47, 130, 162, worked ... 9, 28, 37
163, 227 worker ... 15, 28
websites ... 224 working ... 15, 26, 37, 124,
wedding ... 105 228, 233, 246, 247
week ... 42, 75, 219 works ... 172, 192, 210
weigh ... 241 World ... 5, 10, 69, 106
weird ... 29 worried ... 24, 132, 204,
Weld ... 11, 108-110, 149 205
Wendy ... 164 wound ... 82, 101
West ... 129 wow ... 122
whatsoever ... 226 writ ... 18, 22, 166, 226
wheels ... 224 write ... 51, 191, 217
Whispered ... 115, 117, 137, writing ... 78, 190, 191
143, 147, 159 written ... 116, 118
white ... 87, 105, 109, 132 wrongly ... 59
whiteboard ... 45, 189, 190, wrote ... 189
195, 200, 206 Y
whizzing ... 230 yahoo ... 197
whole ... 7, 31, 69, 118, 166, Yamamoto ... 162, 163
175, 194, 223, 230, yards ... 194
233, 241 Ye ... 39, 121
wife ... 13, 15, 17, 18, 24, year ... 19, 43, 63, 141
25, 28, 60, 142, 159, years ... 9, 50, 100, 137,
165 214
Wildlife ... 132 yelling ... 33
will ... 3, 52, 67, 78, 140 yellow ... 133
Williams ... 164 yesterday ... 154, 170, 171,
willing ... 24, 88, 206 174, 177, 216
wind ... 47, 53 yours ... 133, 148-150, 221
windshirt ... 130 yucking ... 230
A & T TRANSCRIPTS

Cox Francis Et Al Jun 5 Day 17

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Cox Francis Et Al Jun 5 Day 17

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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2 FOR THE DISTRICT OF ALASKA

3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) Cases 3:11-cr-00022-01-RJB

13 For the Plaintiff: STEVEN E. SKROCKI

17 For the Defendant NELSON TRAVERSO

20 For the Defendant TIM DOOLEY

2 For the Defendant M.J. HADEN

1 ANCHORAGE, ALASKA - TUESDAY, JUNE 5, 2012

3 (Call to Order of the Court at 8:33 a.m.)

4 (Defendants present; jury not present)

6 States District Court for the District of Alaska is now in

7 session, the Honorable Robert J. Bryan presiding.

8 THE COURT: Please be seated. Good morning.

9 MR. SKROCKI: Good morning.

10 MS. HADEN: Good morning.

11 THE COURT: Anything preliminary this morning? Hearing

12 no response, bring the jury in.

13 (Jury present at 8:35 a.m.)

14 THE COURT: Good morning, all. We will continue with

15 the examination of Mr. Cox. Mr. Traverso.

16 MR. TRAVERSO: Good morning, Your Honor. Thank you.

17 Exhibit 673, please. I think that's the Acts of War.

18 FRANCIS AUGUST SCHAEFFER COX, DEFENDANT COX'S WITNESS,

20 DIRECT EXAMINATION, CONTINUED

22 Q Schaeffer, I'd like you to explain the list of 17 items

24 A Well, those are all things that in the international

25 community, if one country was doing to another country or if a

1 country was doing to its own country, countries that felt a

2 moral obligation would -- would step in to try to prevent that,

3 and so we compiled that and we were saying how many of those

4 are going on in America in one form or another. And the more

5 of those that were going on in America, the more it became in

6 fact a moral duty for us to -- to become involved and

7 participate in the -- in the activism of cultural change and

8 not just a -- an option of a cause we -- we might be interested

11 A We -- we got a -- like a duty to our country.

12 Q Okay, thank you. When you say we, who's we?

14 Q All right. When you were pushing your activism, your

15 ideas, do you have some guideposts along -- that you had

16 modeled your activism on?

17 A Well, we've tried to look at who has been successful in

19 that victory attained by violence is tantamount to defeat, for

20 it is momentary. I agree with that. And one thing that we

21 tried to remember, there was three guys we really respected.

22 If -- if we are to succeed in this, we have to begin with the

23 principled persistence of Martin Luther King --

24 MS. LAMOUREUX: Objection, Your Honor. This is

1 MR. TRAVERSO: No, this is exactly what I'm asking for.

3 THE COURT: Well --

5 Q -- explain your principles that you're talking about as

6 far as how you're going to go about and -- with your activism?

7 A Begin with the principled persistence of Martin Luther

8 King. Continue with the peaceful forbearance of Gandhi. And

9 finish with the constructive forgiveness of Nelson Mandela.

10 Q Thank you. Now I want to shift gears a little bit,

11 Schaeffer. You own a lot of -- do you own firearms?

13 Q Yeah, okay. You own a Marlin .22 rifle?

15 Q Okay. Remington 870 12-gauge shotgun?

20 A Yeah, that's the -- the tripod-mounted, big World War II,

21 machine gun-looking belt-fed.

23 A I think they brought it in here. It looks like a handyman

25 Q Okay. And a -- do you own a .30-06 rifle, Marlin?

1 A Yep. That was a Christmas present from my father.