Freeman Motion For Sanctions

Case 1:21-cv-03354-BAH Document 81 Filed 07/11/23 Page 1 of 44
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
RUBY FREEMAN, et al.,
Plaintiffs, Case No. 1:21-cv-03354 (BAH)
v. Judge Beryl A. Howell
RUDOLPH W. GIULIANI,
Defendant.
PLAINTIFFS’ MOTION FOR DISCOVERY SANCTIONS AGAINST DEFENDANT

GIULIANI FOR FAILURE TO PRESERVE ELECTRONIC EVIDENCE
TABLE OF CONTENTS
INTRODUCTION ...........................................................................................................................1
RELEVANT FACTUAL BACKGROUND ....................................................................................3
LEGAL STANDARD....................................................................................................................14
ARGUMENT .................................................................................................................................16
I. THE COURT SHOULD SANCTION DEFENDANT GIULIANI FOR HIS
FAILURE TO TAKE REASONABLE STEPS TO PRESERVE ELECTRONIC
EVIDENCE. ...............................................................................................................16
A. Defendant Giuliani Admits That The Electronic Evidence Should Have Been
Preserved In Anticipation Of This Litigation. ................................................17
B. Defendant Giuliani Admits That He Has Failed To Take Reasonable Steps
To Preserve The Electronic Evidence In Violation Of Rule 37(e).................17
C. The Electronic Evidence Is Irretrievable As A Result Of Defendant
Giuliani’s Failure To Preserve. ......................................................................19
D. Plaintiffs Are Prejudiced By The Loss Of The Electronic Evidence. ............21
E. Defendant Giuliani Intended Not To Take Reasonable Steps To Preserve The
Electronic Evidence. .......................................................................................29
F. The Court Should Order Sanctions. ...............................................................31
1. The Court should order default judgment against Defendant Giuliani
on liability...........................................................................................31
2. The Court should order adverse inferences against Defendant
Giuliani. ..............................................................................................33
3. The Court should preclude Defendant Giuliani from relying on any of
the unpreserved electronic evidence...................................................35
G. In the Alternative, the Court Could Order Defendant Giuliani to Produce His
Devices to Plaintiffs .......................................................................................36
II. THE COURT SHOULD AWARD PLAINTIFFS’ FEES AND COSTS. .................37
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TABLE OF AUTHORITIES
Page(s)
Cases
Beck v. Test Masters Educ. Servs.,

289 F.R.D. 374 (D.D.C. 2013) ............................................................................................................. 30
Borum v. Brentwood Vill., LLC,

332 F.R.D. 38 (D.D.C. 2019) ........................................................................................................ passim
Butera v. District of Columbia,

235 F.3d 637 (D.C. Cir. 2001).............................................................................................................. 15
Done v. District of Columbia,

No. 1:19-CV-01173 (CJN), 2023 WL 3558038 (D.D.C. Feb. 14, 2023) ........................... 15, 18, 22, 37
Guarantee Co. of N. Am. USA v. Lakota Contracting Inc.,

No. CV 19-1601 (TJK), 2021 WL 2036666 (D.D.C. May 21, 2021) ...................................... 15, 31, 32
Harte-Hanks Commc’ns, Inc. v. Connaughton,

491 U.S. 657 (1989) ............................................................................................................................. 23
Herbert v. Lando,
441 U.S. 153 (1979) ............................................................................................................................. 23
Jim S. Adler, P.C. v. McNeil Consultants, LLC,

No. 3:19-CV-2025-K-BN, 2023 WL 2699511 (N.D. Tex. Feb. 15, 2023) .......................................... 19
Klayman v. Judicial Watch,

256 F.R.D. 258 (D.D.C. 2009) ............................................................................................................. 35
Mannina v. District of Columbia,

437 F. Supp. 3d 1 (D.D.C. 2020).................................................................................................... 18, 30
N.Y. Times Co. v. Sullivan,

376 U.S. 254 (1964) ............................................................................................................................. 22
St. Amant v. Thompson,

390 U.S. 727 (1968) ............................................................................................................................. 23
U.S. Bank Nat’l Ass’n v. Poblete,

No. CV 15-312 (BAH), 2017 WL 598471 (D.D.C. Feb. 14, 2017) ............................................... 31, 32
United States v. Philip Morris USA, Inc.,

327 F. Supp. 2d 21 (D.D.C. 2004)........................................................................................................ 36
US Dominion, Inc. v. Powell,

554 F. Supp. 3d 42 (D.D.C. 2021)........................................................................................................ 23
- ii -
Vasser v. Shulkin,
No. 14-CV-0185 (RC), 2017 WL 5634860 (D.D.C. Nov. 22, 2017) ................................. 15, 30, 31, 34
Victor Stanley, Inc. v. Creative Pipe, Inc.,

269 F.R.D. 497 (D. Md. 2010), aff’d in part, modified in part, No. CV MJG-06-2662,
2010 WL 11747756 (D. Md. Nov. 1, 2010) ......................................................................................... 32
Wash. Metro. Area Transit Comm’n v. Reliable Limousine Serv., LLC,

776 F.3d 1 (D.C. Cir. 2015)............................................................................................................ 15, 16
Webb v. District of Columbia,

146 F.3d 964 (D.C. Cir. 1998).............................................................................................................. 31
Zhi Chen v. District of Columbia.,

839 F. Supp. 2d 7 (D.D.C. 2011).................................................................................................... 33, 37
Other Authorities
Fed. R. Civ. P. 37 advisory committee's notes on rules - 2015 Amendment ........................................ 15, 16
Fed. R. Civ. P. 37(e) ..................................................................................................................................... 1
Fed. R. Civ. P. 37(e) advisory committee's notes on rules - 2015 Amendment ............................. 15, 16, 22
Fed. R. Civ. P. 37(e)(1) ......................................................................................................................... 14, 15
Fed. R. Civ. P. 37(e)(2) ................................................................................................................... 14, 16, 30
WILLFULNESS, Black’s Law Dictionary (11th ed. 2019) ........................................................................ 30
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Pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 37(e) and the Court’s June 23, 2023 minute
order (“June 23 Order”), Plaintiffs Ruby Freeman and Wandrea’ ArShaye (“Shaye”) Moss
(collectively, “Plaintiffs”) respectfully move the Court to sanction Defendant Rudolph W. Giuliani
(“Defendant” or “Defendant Giuliani”) for failure to preserve electronic evidence (the “Motion”).
INTRODUCTION
In December 2020, Defendant Giuliani started widely publishing false claims that
Plaintiffs, two Georgia election workers, had engaged in a conspiracy to commit election fraud.
His claims were no more grounded in reality than a fever dream. However, given his stature and
that of his client (then-President Trump), state and federal investigators promptly undertook an
investigation of Defendant Giuliani’s claims, quickly concluded those investigations, and
subsequently announced in public that there was no basis for Giuliani’s claims. In the face of
seriatim official rejections of his false claims about Plaintiffs, Defendant Giuliani consciously
avoided further inquiry, instead choosing to continue publishing his accusations—sometimes
embellishing them with new imagined details—for more than a year. Plaintiffs brought this
lawsuit to clear their names and hold Defendant Giuliani accountable for besmirching their
reputations and brazenly disregarding the truth.
The time allotted for discovery in this case has concluded. Based on the record developed,
there is no real dispute that Defendant Giuliani published false and defamatory claims about
Plaintiffs to the world; that these publications caused Plaintiffs harm; that Defendant Giuliani’s
conduct was outrageous and caused Plaintiffs to suffer severe emotional distress; and that
Defendant Giuliani conspired with others to do the same.
The only defenses Defendant Giuliani appears poised to offer on liability are that his
allegations about Plaintiffs all constitute non-actionable opinion, and that he failed to act with the
requisite degree of fault—whether that standard is negligence or “actual malice.” The first defense
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amounts to a legal question that this Court will confront in due course. As for the second, Plaintiffs
dispute that this case should be governed by the “actual malice” standard, but even if that standard
did apply to private figures like Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, the law is clear that a defendant’s
self-serving attestations of good faith belief do not resolve the question of actual malice. Instead,
claims that turn on a defendant’s subjective belief may be tested through discovery into whether a
defendant in fact knew that his or her claims were false or recklessly disregarded the truth.
In this case, Defendant Giuliani has severely prejudiced Plaintiffs’ ability to test his claims
about what he knew, as well as what information he received but chose to ignore, before he made
his numerous defamatory claims between December 2020 and January 12, 2022. Plaintiffs know
that pertinent documentary evidence on those questions existed at one point, based not just on
common sense, but also because of discovery productions made by third parties. But Defendant
Giuliani himself has never produced meaningful documentary discovery in this case. And the
likely reason for that is because, as Defendant Giuliani’s May 30 declaration (the “Declaration”)
makes abundantly clear, he failed to take any steps to preserve relevant electronic evidence.
Throughout the course of discovery, Plaintiffs have repeatedly inquired into the status of
Defendant Giuliani’s preservation efforts, and the Court has also given Defendant Giuliani the
opportunity to cure his failures by ordering him to detail his preservation efforts and take steps to
cure any deficiencies. Moreover, Defendant Giuliani is an attorney with over half a century of
experience and therefore is intimately familiar with his obligation to make reasonable efforts to
preserve electronic discovery. Despite this, Defendant Giuliani has now effectively conceded that
he has not taken even the most basic steps to preserve evidence that might be relevant to this
litigation.
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In sum, Defendant Giuliani has had eighteen months since Plaintiffs first filed this suit to
take reasonable steps to preserve his electronic evidence, including more than six months since
Plaintiffs first raised the question of preservation. Defendant Giuliani has had nearly three months
since Plaintiffs filed the motion to compel. Defendant Giuliani’s failure to preserve his electronic
records in the face of repeated reminders, and a personal awareness of his obligations, can and
should be interpreted by this Court as a deliberate effort to deprive Plaintiffs of material evidence
in this litigation.
In light of Defendant Giuliani’s willful misconduct, severe sanctions are appropriate. Fact
discovery in this matter concluded on May 22, 2023—a deadline which this Court has already
extended six months due almost entirely to Defendant Giuliani’s recalcitrance. While, in theory,
additional discovery might plausibly be able to remedy some of the prejudice Plaintiffs have
suffered, ordering that additional discovery would be inequitable and unjust. Plaintiffs have
already faced substantial delay in the adjudication of their claims. Fact discovery should not be
extended again simply because Defendant Giuliani has chosen not to comply with his obligations.
Indeed, sanctions exist to remedy the precise situation here—a sophisticated party’s abuse of
judicial process designed to avoid accountability, at enormous expense to the parties and this
Court. Defendant Giuliani should know better. His conduct warrants severe sanctions.
RELEVANT FACTUAL BACKGROUND
Plaintiffs initiated this lawsuit on December 23, 2021, ECF No. 1, and filed their operative,
amended complaint on May 10, 2022, ECF No. 22. Fact discovery opened on May 18, 2022, and
Plaintiffs served their first set of discovery requests on Defendant on May 20, 2022. Defendant
Giuliani’s counsel initially conveyed that the key electronic devices had been seized by the FBI
and that he had lost access to certain email and other accounts. ECF No. 44-4; ECF No. 44-5.
Defendant’s devices were returned to him no later than August 19, 2022. ECF No. 44-5.
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Defendant Giuliani’s counsel conveyed that there was a database that consisted of some set of
documents collected by the FBI when they seized certain of Defendant Giuliani’s devices in April
2021 (“TrustPoint”), but he did not know what documents were contained in that database. See
ECF No. 44 at 10–12; ECF No. 56 at 6–8; ECF No. 64 at 15–16. Between July 12 and November
1, 2022, Defendant Giuliani produced a total of 193 documents collected in response to Plaintiffs’
discovery demands in this case, none of which were particularly responsive. ECF No. 44 at 4–8.
Concerned that Defendant’s meager productions might be the result of spoliation, Plaintiffs
first requested confirmation that Defendant Giuliani had taken reasonable steps to preserve his
electronic evidence during a meet and confer on December 21, 2022. ECF No. 44-7. Counsel for
Defendant Giuliani confirmed in writing that he was not aware of any preservation efforts by
Defendant Giuliani, writing “I am not aware of his preservation efforts.” Id. In an email dated
February 6, 2023, Plaintiffs again asked counsel for Defendant Giuliani to confirm that “Mr.
Giuliani has preserved, searched, and produced documents from his e-mail accounts, devices,
social media accounts, messaging applications, or other electronic devices for documents
responsive to” Plaintiffs’ Requests for Production (“RFPs”). (Ex. 1.) Counsel for Defendant
Giuliani did not provide a response to that question. (Id.)
During Defendant Giuliani’s deposition on March 1, 2023, Plaintiffs specifically inquired
into Defendant Giuliani’s repositories of potentially relevant information and his preservation and
search efforts. Defendant Giuliani confirmed during his deposition that he used multiple phones,
email addresses, and messaging applications in the months following the 2020 presidential
election. (Ex. 4 at 17:14–19, 21:5–11, 22:24–25:6.) Defendant Giuliani claimed to have taken “a
quick look” for responsive material on messaging platforms and some of his devices but did not
“know” if that look related to “this case” or if he “lumped a group of cases together.” (Id. at 25:19–
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26:8, 26:20–27:7.) Defendant Giuliani could not recall ever reaching out to any of the companies
for applications he used, like WhatsApp or Signal, to ask them to pull down his data. (Id. at 28:9–
16.) When asked whether he had ever gone back to the companies, as far as searching the devices
seized by the FBI in April 2021 after they were returned, Defendant Giuliani claimed they were
“wiped out” when he received them back and any search of them “hasn’t helped because…I can’t
get anything off” of those devices. (Id. at 391:23–392:11.)
On March 20, 2023, Plaintiffs submitted a filing detailing the outstanding discovery
disputes with Defendant Giuliani and specifically argued that Defendant Giuliani had been unable
to confirm that he had adequately preserved materials responsive to Plaintiffs’ RFPs despite
Plaintiffs’ requests. ECF No. 36 at 6. Defendant Giuliani’s response was silent regarding his
attempts to preserve electronic evidence. ECF No. 38.
During a discovery conference before this Court on March 21, the Court asked counsel for
Defendant Giuliani whether Defendant Giuliani had “locked down – put a litigation hold on – all
of his records given the pendency of this litigation?” (Ex. 7 at 10:22–11:2.) Counsel for Defendant
Giuliani stated:
Well, Your Honor, I think the answer is yes. I don't know -- I don't recall in his
deposition if he was specifically asked that question. But, certainly, the documents
that were taken by the DOJ were locked – in April of 2021. So all of those
documents are fixed, so that's certainly locked in.
Everything after that -- I mean, I think he test- -- I think he answered an

interrogatory and said he has not -- he has not destroyed or deleted any documents.
So I think what they're asking for -- I don't know that there was so much concern
about whether the documents had been spoiled. But I think the concern is he needs
to certify that that has, in fact, not occurred; and I am not sure that he has -- I'm not
sure that he has done that.
I am not sure that there was specifically – I don't know that there was a specific
interrogatory asked, other than the one I mentioned that asked whether he deleted
documents. But he -- he certainly is willing to certify that however the Court would
like him to do so.
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(Id. at 11:3–21 (emphasis added).)
Following the March 21 discovery hearing, the Court issued a minute order directing
Defendant Giuliani to, inter alia, (a) submit notice to the Court describing in specific terms the
data on TrustPoint that were searched in response to Plaintiffs’ RFPs, including date range and
contents (e.g., social media accounts, text messages, and communications on other messaging
platforms, such as Signal, Telegram, etc.); and (b) what locations and data sources remained for
searches to be completed to respond fully to Plaintiffs’ RFPs. March 21 Minute Order. In
response, Defendant filed a notice on March 24 in which he did not describe in specific terms the
data on TrustPoint or what locations and data sources remain for searches to be completed. ECF
No. 40; see ECF No. 44 at 11.
On April 17, with the Court’s leave, Plaintiffs’ filed a motion to compel Defendant
Giuliani, specifically requesting that the Court compel Defendant Giuliani to detail his
preservation efforts. ECF No. 44 at 16–18. In his opposition, the only effort regarding
preservation that Defendant Giuliani was able to articulate was an action he did not even take, but
instead one taken by the FBI when that agency seized Giuliani’s electronic devices in April of
2021. ECF No. 51 at 3–6.
In their briefing, Plaintiffs explained having obtained discovery from third-parties and
public sources making clear what Plaintiffs suspected all along: there exists, somewhere in various
accounts and devices, documentary evidence that goes to the heart of Plaintiffs claims. For
example, on April 26, between Plaintiffs filing their motion to compel and reply in support thereof,
Plaintiffs received a production of documents from Christina Bobb. That production yielded a text
thread with Defendant Giuliani discussing sending a video of Plaintiffs to Rusty Bowers, then the
Speaker of the Arizona House of Representatives, ECF No. 56-3; and an August 17, 2022, direct
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message with Ms. Bobb on Instagram, which Defendant has never produced, ECF No. 56-4. See
ECF No. 56 at 3, 5. Defendant Giuliani has never produced either of those documents or any
social media communications from Ms. Bobb, and he had never even disclosed the phone number
he used to communicate with Ms. Bobb to Plaintiffs prior to Ms. Bobb’s production. (Gottlieb
Decl. ¶ 3); ECF No. 56 at 3, 5. Nor are either of these documents listed in Defendant Giuliani’s
privilege log as far as Plaintiffs can discern. (Ex. 2 at 11:25–13:12); ECF No. 44 at 8; (Gottlieb
Decl. ¶ 3; Ex. 3.)
A production from one of Defendant Giuliani’s assistants, third-party Christianne Allen,
yielded a December 7, 2020, email from a Fox News reporter to “press@giulianipartners.com,”
seeking a comment from Defendant Giuliani on one of the key early rebuttals of Defendant
Giuliani’s claims—i.e., Georgia Secretary of State Chief Investigator Frances Watson’s December
6, 2020, affidavit, specifically addressing and refuting Defendant Giuliani’s claims:
Good morning,
First, I hope Mayor Giuliani is doing well and has a full and speedy
recovery from Covid-19. Has he had a chance to see the affidavit
from Frances Watson, the chief investigator for the Georgia
secretary of state, that was filed yesterday? Watson claims that,
according to his investigation, poll watchers and media were not
asked to leave before counting ended, but that they “simply left on
their own when they saw one group of workers, whose job was only
to open envelopes and who had completed that task, also leave.”
Watson also says that “there were no mystery ballots that were
brought in from an unknown location and hidden under tables,”
claiming that ballots were sealed in boxes and placed under the table
by workers who thought they were done for the night, and that the
boxes were later opened when counting continued. Watson does not
explain why workers thought they were done.
Does Mayor Giuliani have any comment on this?
ECF No. 64-7. Defendant Giuliani has never produced that email (or listed on a privilege log as
far as Plaintiffs can discern).
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Similarly, the U.S. House of Representatives’ Select Committee to Investigate the January
6th Attack on the U.S. Capitol released a December 13, 2020, email from Defendant Giuliani to
Boris Epshteyn, an advisor to the 2020 Trump Campaign, approving a draft statement from the
Trump Legal Team, which reiterates Defendant’s false claims about Plaintiffs: “Georgia has video
evidence of 30,000 illegal ballots cast after the observers were removed.” ECF No. 56-7 at 3.
Defendant Giuliani has never produced that email to Plaintiffs, and the December 13 email does
not appear on any privilege log produced in this case (or listed on a privilege log as far as Plaintiffs
can discern). (Gottlieb Decl. ¶ 4.)
Defendant Giuliani has also never produced (or listed on a privilege log as far as Plaintiffs
can discern) a December 7, 2020, text thread between Mr. Epshteyn, Defendant Giuliani, and
others. The thread reads:
Mr. Epshteyn (12:54 p.m. ET): Team –

Mr. Epshteyn (12:54 p.m. ET): Urgent POTUS request need best examples of
“election fraud” that we’ve alleged that’s super easy
to explain.
Doesn’t necessarily have to be proven, but does
need to be easy to understand
Is there any sort of “greatest hits” clearinghouse that
anyone has for best example?
Thank you!!!
...
Mr. Giuliani (12:57 p.m. ET): The security camera in Atlanta alone captures theft
of a minimum of 30,000 votes which alone would
change result in Georgia Remember it will live in
history as the theft of a state if it is not corrected by
State Legislature
...
Mr. Giuliani (1:22 p.m. ET): [REDACTED] GA, the state recorded on camera
for history, [REDACTED]
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(Gottlieb Decl. ¶ 3; Ex. 11.) These are not the only examples Plaintiffs have of relevant documents
and communications that appear to have vanished from Defendant Giuliani’s repositories. (Decl.
¶ 5.)
Discovery from Defendant Giuliani and third-parties suggests that there should be many
records responsive to Plaintiffs’ discovery requests in this case. For example, Defendant Giuliani
testified that he “talked to many people” who said that poll observers were excluded from State
Farm Arena on election night 2020 and that “there were constant complaints about that.” (Ex. 4
at 352:22–353:21.) Christina Bobb testified that Defendant Giuliani was “getting like 10,000
emails a day” during the relevant time period, and that she was copied on some emails precisely
to ensure that certain emails were actually brought to Defendant’s attention. (Ex. 5 at 40:16–
41:21.) Similarly, Bernard Kerik testified that Defendant Giuliani’s team was receiving leads on
possible fraud from “a hundred different sources” during November and December 2020. (Ex. 6,
Kerik at 47:12–48:7.)
On May 19, 2023, three days before the close of fact discovery, the Court held another
discovery hearing, during which Defendant Giuliani admitted that he had been under an obligation
to preserve documents related to this litigation since before this action was even filed. (Ex. 2 at
67:21–68:2.) When the Court inquired as to what steps Defendant Giuliani had taken to preserve
his electronic evidence, counsel for Defendant stated that Defendant Giuliani “has not deleted any
documents.” (Id. at 65:20–25.) The Court explained that “not deleting documents is not the same
as preserving the information in a manner that can be retrieved and searched.” (Id. at 66:1–20.)
With respect to pre-April 2021 material, counsel for Defendant Giuliani represented (without
substantiation of any kind) that Defendant Giuliani “lost the ability to do any preservation as of
April 2021” and that whatever data was preserved “was preserved because it was taken by the
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government.” (Id. at 67:11–18.) Defendant Giuliani represented to the Court that “90 to 95 percent
of my communication is done on Apple, and it’s backed up by the iCloud.” (Id. at 53:4–8.) But
that there “is a problem with the cloud. When we go back to the period of time -- material that
was seized by the FBI, that I don’t have access to on the cloud. They have it, but I don’t have
access to it.” (Id. at 95:17–97:8.) Regarding his preservation obligations, Defendant Giuliani
stated “understand, I have been doing this for 50 years; I understand the obligations.” (Id. at 68:5–
6.)
Following the hearing, the Court ordered Defendant Giuliani to, by May 30, inter alia:
(1) file a declaration, subject to penalty of perjury, that details:

a) All efforts taken to preserve, collect, and search potentially
responsive data and locations that may contain responsive materials
to all of plaintiffs’ Requests for Production (RFP);
b) A complete list of all “locations and data” that defendant used to
communicate about any materials responsive to any of Plaintiffs’ RFPs
(including, but not limited to, specific email accounts, text messaging
platforms, other messaging applications, social media, devices, hardware,
and any form of communication); [and]
c) The specific “data” located in the TrustPoint database, including—
i) a list identifying the source devices from which the data was
extracted or obtained;
ii) for each such device, the type of device (i.e., iPhone, Macbook,
laptop, iPad, etc.) and user, if known;
iii) a list identifying any social media accounts, messaging
applications, and email accounts from which the data was extracted
or obtained; and
iv) for each such account and application, the account name and
user . . . .
May 19 Minute Order (the “May 19 Order”) (emphasis added).
On May 30, Defendant Giuliani filed a declaration, but failed to resolve these issues. ECF
No. 60 (the “Giuliani Declaration” or “Giuliani Decl.”). The Giuliani Declaration identifies the
following data sources as likely to contain (or at one point to have contained) responsive
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information: (1) three personal email accounts (Gmail, iCloud, and Protonmail); (2) an iCloud
account; (3) three phone numbers that he used to send messages via text and messaging
application; (4) three messaging applications (Signal, WhatsApp, Telegram); (5) five social media
handles, (items (1) through (5) collectively, “Identified Sources”); (6) and nine devices, two of
which were not seized by the FBI (“Seized Devices” as to the seven seized, “Unseized Devices”
as to the two unseized, and “Responsive Devices” as to the nine collectively). Giuliani Decl. ¶ 3.
The Declaration is silent on any efforts by Defendant Giuliani to take any steps to preserve
the Identified Sources or the Responsive Devices. See generally id. The Declaration states that
Defendant Giuliani turned off the auto-delete function at some period “in late 2020 or early 2021”
on his “email, messaging, communication, or other document storage platforms” (without
specifying which of those platforms this action applied to, or the process that Defendant Giuliani
used to take such steps) and did not manually delete “any electronic documents or dispose[] of any
paper files.” Id. ¶ 2.
As to TrustPoint, the Declaration represents that “TrustPoint One documents consist of all
documents that were extracted from the electronic devices taken by the DOJ in April 2021 when
the DOJ seized those devices” but does not confirm what exactly was “extracted.” Id. ¶ 4. The
Declaration is silent on whether TrustPoint contains all of Defendant Giuliani’s iMessage, text
message, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, or social media accounts or rather, if it contains any of
them, it is limited to whatever communications DOJ happened to extract from whatever
information happened to be stored locally on the Seized Devices. Id. ¶ 5. The Declaration does
not include any representations about whether the government extracted Defendant Giuliani’s
Gmail or Proton Mail accounts or his Business Files (as defined below), in part or in their entirety.
Id. ¶¶ 4–5. The Declaration explains that if Defendant Giuliani had accessed his social media
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accounts “via the web, no data from social media would have been extracted from the devices” to
TrustPoint. Id. ¶ 5. As to the iCloud account, the Declaration assumes that data would have also
been included “because I synced my iCloud to my devices” without providing any confirmation
of when or how such activities might have taken place, such as the intervals at which Defendant
Giuliani generally “synced” his “iCloud to my devices” or whether all of his various accounts were
included within such activities. Giuliani Decl. ¶ 5. The Declaration is silent on any efforts to
recover any of the evidence that was “wiped” from his devices. See generally Giuliani Decl.
Plaintiffs responded to the Declaration in a filing on June 14 (as directed by the Court’s
May 31 Minute Order). ECF No. 64 (the “Response to the Declaration”). In the Response to the
Declaration, Plaintiffs show in detail that the Declaration does not explain any affirmative steps
by Defendant Giuliani to preserve any materials relevant to this action at any time. Id.
On June 16, Defendant produced 4,902 TrustPoint files to Plaintiffs. ECF No. 77 at 13.
Of those files, 3,233 are .txt files. ECF No. 77-1 ¶ 5. Txt files are generally non-usable, non-
readable raw data. Id. Of those txt files, 2,350 are completely non-readable, non-usable computer
files known as “blobs.” Id. In his position statement, Defendant Giuliani opined that, in his non-
expert view, the large volume of blank and/or non-responsive documents in his June 16 production
of materials from TrustPoint “appears to be a result of file corruption resulting from the DOJ
seizure.” ECF No. 77 at 20. The non-txt files are overwhelmingly non-responsive junk including:
non-readable computer code; emails advertising a year-long spiritual apprenticeship course;
informational packets regarding Microsoft auto-updates (in five different languages); articles and
memes about George Floyd; and death notices from The Washington Post. (Gottlieb Decl. ¶ 6.)
On June 23, the Court granted Plaintiffs’ request for leave to file a motion for sanctions for
Defendant Giuliani’s failure to sufficiently preserve discoverable information and directed
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Plaintiffs to file their motion by July 7, 2023. June 23 Minute Order Granting Plaintiffs’ Request
for Leave to File a Motion for Sanctions.
On June 29, 2023, Defendant introduced further confusion regarding TrustPoint, when his
counsel provided Plaintiffs with a sealed motion filed by Defendant Giuliani’s criminal defense
counsel in In re Search Warrant Dated April 21, 2021, No. 21-MJ-4335 (S.D.N.Y.). ECF No. 77-
2. That motion makes clear that the records collected in the TrustPoint database were collected as
part of an investigation into a possible Foreign Agents Registration Act violation “involving
Ukrainian individuals, Ambassador Maria Yovanovitch and the office of the U.S. Ambassador to
the Ukraine; a trip by Giuliani to Poland in 2019 and issues involving Franklin Templeton and
funds misappropriated from the Ukraine.” (Gottlieb Decl. ¶ 7.) In that motion, Defendant
Giuliani’s criminal defense counsel requested that the New York court order the Government to
suppress and destroy the majority of records contained in the TrustPoint database, and limit any
remaining records to a time period between 2018 and 2019. (Id.) Plaintiffs do not know the result
of that motion, as the docket remains sealed, or whether anything was ultimately deleted or
suppressed from the TrustPoint database. In all events, it is now undisputed that the records
contained in TrustPoint were collected in response to a search warrant that had nothing to do with
the 2020 election, or Plaintiffs’ claims, and further that Defendant Giuliani attempted not to
preserve the evidence involved in that collection, but instead to have that evidence narrowed and
(in some circumstances) deleted. (Id.)
On June 30, 2023, Defendant made a production of 3,407 documents from TrustPoint. On
the same day, the parties submitted a joint status report. ECF No. 77. As with the production on
June 16, the June 30 production appears to be largely non-responsive junk files, including: 258
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“blob” files; 141 Apple information packets in various languages; and more death notices from
The Washington Post. (Gottlieb Decl. ¶ 8.)
On July 6, one day before Plaintiffs were required to file this Motion, counsel for Defendant
Giuliani reached out to Plaintiffs’ counsel offering to discuss whether an agreement might be
reached in lieu of Plaintiffs filing this motion. (Gottlieb Decl. ¶ 9.) In response to that outreach,
counsel for each of the Parties negotiated over the course of two days in an effort to reach such an
agreement. (Id.) When it appeared by late afternoon on Friday, July 7 that counsel appeared to
agree upon a set of key principles for that agreement, the Parties filed a motion, ECF No. 80,
seeking a brief extension of time to file this Motion. (Id.) The representations made in that Motion
relied upon representations from Counsel for Plaintiffs and Defendant Giuliani. (Id.) However,
counsel for Defendant Giuliani communicated on the morning of Monday July 10, for the first
time, that Defendant Giuliani did not agree with the key principles referenced above, and
accordingly, the agreement contemplated in ECF No. 80 was not achievable. (Id.) That turn of
events necessitated this Motion.
LEGAL STANDARD
Under Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 37(e), the Court may sanction a party “[i]f
electronically stored information that should have been preserved in the anticipation or conduct of
litigation is lost because that party failed to take reasonable steps to preserve it, and it cannot be
restored or replaced through additional discovery.” Rule 37(e)(1) authorizes, upon a finding of
prejudice, sanctions to cure that prejudice, whereas Rule 37(e)(2) authorizes sanctions upon a
finding that a party intended to deprive another party of information. The Court may impose
curative measures such as “forbidding the party that failed to preserve information from putting
on certain evidence, permitting the parties to present evidence and argument to the jury regarding
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the loss of information, or giving the jury instructions to assist in its evaluation of such evidence
or argument.” Fed. R. Civ. P. 37(e) advisory committee’s notes on rules – 2015 Amendment.
“Discovery sanctions serve two purposes: punishing disobedient parties and deterring
others from emulating their behavior.” Wash. Metro. Area Transit Comm’n v. Reliable Limousine
Serv., LLC, 776 F.3d 1, 6–8 (D.C. Cir. 2015) (holding district court did not abuse its discretion by
entering default judgment where district court found that defendant willfully refused to participate
in discovery and violated numerous court orders); see also Butera v. District of Columbia, 235
F.3d 637, 661 (D.C. Cir. 2001); Guarantee Co. of N. Am. USA v. Lakota Contracting Inc., No. CV
19-1601 (TJK), 2021 WL 2036666, at *3–4 (D.D.C. May 21, 2021).
“When analyzing a motion for sanctions under Rule 37(e)(1), courts consider whether (1)
electronically stored information (ESI) should have been preserved in the anticipation or conduct
of litigation; (2) a party failed to take reasonable steps to preserve the ESI; (3) ESI was lost as a
result; and (4) the ESI could not be restored or replaced by additional discovery.” Doe v. District
of Columbia, No. 1:19-CV-01173 (CJN), 2023 WL 3558038, at *12 (D.D.C. Feb. 14, 2023)
(cleaned up). The party alleging spoliation bears the burden of proof, Borum v. Brentwood Vill.,
LLC, 332 F.R.D. 38, 43 (D.D.C. 2019), and that burden is not onerous. See Vasser v. Shulkin, No.
14-CV-0185 (RC), 2017 WL 5634860, at *4 (D.D.C. Nov. 22, 2017) (finding the burden was
satisfied with “relatively thin” evidence).
For sanctions permitted by Rule 37(e)(1), the Court must then determine whether the
moving party suffered prejudice as a result of the failure to preserve and may upon a finding of
prejudice may “impose proportional sanctions upon the finding of prejudice.” Borum, 332 F.R.D.
at 46–47 (D.D.C. 2019). Courts have “discretion to determine how best to assess prejudice in
particular cases.” Fed. R. Civ. P. 37 advisory committee’s notes on rules – 2015 Amendment.
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And imposing the sanctions necessary to cure prejudice is “entrusted to the court’s discretion.” Id.
37(e) advisory committee’s notes on rules – 2015 Amendment.
Under Rule 37(e)(2), if the Court finds that a party intended to deprive another of
information, “no separate showing of prejudice is required because ‘the finding of intent . . . can
support . . . an inference that the opposing party was prejudiced by the loss of information.’”
Borum, 332 F.R.D. at 48 (quoting Fed. R. Civ. P. 37(e) advisory committee’s notes on rules – 2015
Amendment). The Court may impose the most severe sanctions, including default judgment and
adverse inferences, where it finds that the party that lost the information acted with the intent to
deprive another party of the information's use in the litigation. Fed. R. Civ. P. 37(e) advisory
committee’s notes on rules – 2015 Amendment; Fed. R. Civ. P. 37(e)(2). The Court of Appeals
reviews the imposition of discovery sanctions for abuse of discretion. See Wash. Metro. Area
Transit Comm’n, 776 F.3d at 4.
ARGUMENT
I. THE COURT SHOULD SANCTION DEFENDANT GIULIANI FOR HIS

FAILURE TO TAKE REASONABLE STEPS TO PRESERVE ELECTRONIC
EVIDENCE.
Defendant Giuliani has not taken any steps, let alone reasonable steps, to preserve
electronic evidence in the locations he identified as potentially containing responsive information.
Specifically, Defendant Giuliani has failed to take reasonable steps to preserve, and therefore failed
to produce, any meaningful amount of electronic evidence that surely was contained within his
accounts and devices, including: (1) three personal email accounts (Gmail, iCloud, and
Protonmail); (2) an iCloud account; (3) three phone numbers that he used to send messages via
text and messaging application; (4) three messaging applications (Signal, WhatsApp, Telegram);
(5) five social media handles; (6) and nine devices, two of which were not seized by the FBI
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(together, the “Electronic Evidence”).1
A. Defendant Giuliani Admits That The Electronic Evidence Should Have Been
Preserved In Anticipation Of This Litigation.
Defendant Giuliani conceded that he understands that he has been obligated to preserve
materials relevant to this lawsuit’s claims since before Plaintiffs even filed suit. (Ex. 2 at 67:21–
68:2); see also Borum, 332 F.R.D. at 45 (explaining that the duty to preserve evidence starts when
a party anticipates litigation). And Defendant Giuliani cannot credibly claim that the materials
on his own devices, that he testified to using during the time period at issue in the litigation to
discuss issues relevant to the litigation, do not meet the low-bar for potential relevance. See
Borum, 332 F.R.D. at 45 (explaining that a party “must preserve potentially relevant evidence
that might be useful to an adversary”).
B. Defendant Giuliani Admits That He Has Failed To Take Reasonable Steps

To Preserve The Electronic Evidence In Violation Of Rule 37(e).
Defendant Giuliani admits that he did not take reasonable steps to preserve the Electronic
Evidence because Defendant Giuliani admits that he essentially took no steps to preserve the
Electronic Evidence (apart from his claim to have disabled the auto-delete function on certain
accounts).2 See ECF No. 64 at 12–18; see generally Giuliani Decl. Defendant Giuliani also
1
Plaintiffs note that they are submitting this Motion without having been able to complete a full
review of Defendant Giuliani’s productions from June 16 and 30. It is possible, given the nature
of the productions, that a complete review may require the assistance of a forensics vendor given
the data at issue. Plaintiffs do not object if this Court defers ruling on this Motion in full or in part,
until Plaintiffs have been afforded the opportunity to complete their analysis of Defendant
Giuliani’s productions, and are willing to provide an update to this Court in the form of a
supplement to this Motion.
2
The only effort at preserving Defendant Giuliani’s Electronic Evidence was not his, but rather
the FBI’s, when it seized certain of Defendant Giuliani’s devices in April 2021 and retained some
portion of those electronic materials on the TrustPoint database. Defendant Giuliani may not claim
credit for the FBI’s seizure, not just because it was not a step he took, but also because he has been
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admits by omission that he has not taken any steps to recover any Electronic Evidence—whether
via the retention of a forensics company or by contacting various email or social media
platforms—that he claims was “wiped” from his devices.
Courts routinely find that a party failed to take reasonable steps to preserve electronic
evidence where the party made significantly greater efforts at preservation than Defendant
Giuliani’s paltry steps here. See, e.g., Doe, 2023 WL 3558038, at *14 (finding the defendant
“failed to fulfill its obligations by a long shot” where its only preservation effort was a partial
litigation hold and text messages from the relevant time period were lost); Mannina v. District of
Columbia, 437 F. Supp. 3d 1, 13 (D.D.C. 2020) (holding a party’s issuance of a litigation hold
three years after it anticipated litigation was unreasonable). The only “effort” Defendant Giuliani
has made was to turn off auto-delete at some period “in late 2020 or early 2021” on his
(undefined) “email, messaging, communication, or other document storage platforms” and his
claim that he refrained from manually deleting “any electronic documents or dispose[] of any
paper files.” Giuliani Decl. ¶ 2. But Defendant Giuliani’s representation lacks the kind of details
that would make it worthy of credit—he has not explained which of his accounts had auto delete
functions on them, how he turned them off (if so) or when, whether he did so or tasked someone
else to do so, and whether he sought to recover any records (from his various online accounts)
confirming these changes. And in any event, as the Court recognized during the Motion to
unable to provide any assurance that TrustPoint contains all electronic evidence from all the Seized
Devices, despite being ordered by the Court to do so. March 21 Minute Order; May 19 Minute
Order; ECF No. 64 at 14–16. Finally, assuming the FBI preserved all materials on TrustPoint’s
database, this effort only preserved materials generated prior to April 2021.
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Compel hearing, “not deleting documents is not the same as preserving the information in a
manner that can be retrieved and searched.” (Ex. 2 at 66:1–20; see also id. at 87:9–23.)
C. The Electronic Evidence Is Irretrievable As A Result Of Defendant Giuliani’s

Failure To Preserve.
Electronic evidence is deemed irremediably lost for purposes of Rule 37 where, as here, a
custodian acknowledges that information has been lost, attempts to recover that information are
unsuccessful, and no amount of discovery will confirm the extent to which information was lost.
Borum, 332 F.R.D. at 46. To combat a finding of loss, “[i]t is not sufficient” for a custodian to
claim that all of relevant emails “must have been preserved and produced through . . . other
custodians’ emails.” Jim S. Adler, P.C. v. McNeil Consultants, LLC, No. 3:19-CV-2025-K-BN,
2023 WL 2699511, at *20 (N.D. Tex. Feb. 15, 2023) (citing Borum, 332 F.R.D. at 46). In Borum,
for example, a company lost its own copies of an employee’s emails. 332 F.R.D. at 46. This Court
held that the evidence should be deemed lost because the employee likely sent emails to only
external parties without copying another employee, such that it was impossible for the custodian
to fully recover all of that employee’s e-mails, and because “no amount of discovery w[ould]
confirm the extent to which information was lost.” Id.
The record here supports a finding that Defendant Giuliani’s electronic evidence is
irretrievable. Defendant Giuliani has repeatedly conceded as much. In an August 12, 2022, email,
Defendant’s counsel represented that Defendant Giuliani had lost access to some of his “icloud,
email accounts, etc.” after the FBI seized his devices. ECF No. 44-5 at 4. In his March 1
deposition, Defendant Giuliani testified that at least some of the devices returned by the FBI had
been wiped. (Ex. 4 at 391:23–392:11.) At the March 21 discovery hearing, Defendant Giuliani
explained that he has lost access to at least one email account. (Ex. 7 at 20:22–21:1.) At the
Motion to Compel hearing, Defendant Giuliani explained that he no longer has access to his iCloud
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account for the relevant time period, which would have contained “90 to 95 percent” of his
communications. (Ex. 2 at 53:4–8, 95:17–97:8); (see also Ex. 4 at 21:20–22:10, 27:21–28:8.)
After reiterating that he cannot access his iCloud account for the relevant period, Defendant
Giuliani himself suggested that that evidence may have been “destroy[ed].” (Ex. 2 at 96:8–18.)
Separately, Defendant has never demonstrated what exactly is on the TrustPoint database,
such that the Court or Plaintiffs may have any degree of confidence that it contains all of
Defendant’s potentially relevant documents from the pre-April 2021 period. See supra at pp. 4–
6, 11. And his searches and productions of that database have failed to yield clearly relevant
evidence, see supra at pp. 12–13, which strongly suggests the TrustPoint database is incomplete
as to electronic evidence pre-dating the FBI’s seizure in April 2021.
What is missing from all of Defendant Giuliani’s various representations is any
documented effort to recover this allegedly lost evidence. To the contrary, as mentioned above,
on June 29, Defendant’s counsel produced a sealed motion to Plaintiffs’ counsel in which
Defendant’s criminal defense attorneys specifically requested that all evidence outside of a time
period between 2018 and 2019 be destroyed—a motion the resolution of which Plaintiffs do not
know. (Gottlieb Decl. ¶ 7.) Most recently, in the parties’ June 30, 2023, joint status report,
Defendant Giuliani reported that many of the files he produced from the TrustPoint database are
blank or consist of a jumble of text because of “file corruption.” ECF No. 77 at 20. But at no
point, to Plaintiffs’ knowledge, has Defendant Giuliani ever claimed to have sought to remedy
these issues—whether by hiring a forensics vendor to examine his devices, by contacting Apple to
determine what if anything might be recovered from his supposedly corrupted iCloud account, or
by contacting various social media platforms to determine what if anything might be recovered
from his Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, or other social media accounts. Indeed, to date, Defendant
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Giuliani has still not even produced to Plaintiffs the most rudimentary phone records from the
provider of his cell phone accounts.
Further, Plaintiffs have been prejudiced in even being able to ascertain the full
consequences of Defendant Giuliani’s lackadaisical approach to his discovery obligations. It is
still unclear whether Plaintiffs will ever understand what precisely the FBI transferred (or did not
transfer) from Defendant Giuliani’s Seized Devices; nor do Plaintiffs know the actual status of
Defendant Giuliani’s cloud-based accounts. Moreover, at least one third-party, Katherine Friess,
with whom Defendant Giuliani was in close contact when he first began making his claims about
Plaintiffs and was working with Defendant Giuliani in the aftermath of the 2020 election, has
vanished. Despite months of efforts, including extensive investigation and an order from this
Court authorizing Plaintiffs to serve Katherine Friess by alternative service, see ECF No. 34;
December 20, 2022 Minute Order; ECF No. 34-5 (listing Ms. Friess on various privilege log
entries), Ms. Friess has never responded to Plaintiffs’ subpoenas nor provided documentary
evidence, and Defendant Giuliani has declined to say where she might be.
When considered together, (1) Defendant Giuliani’s direct admissions of loss of access to
evidence, (2) Defendant Giuliani’s defiance of multiple court orders requiring him to provide a
meaningful description of what is and is not located in the TrustPoint database, (3) the evidence
Plaintiffs have obtained from other sources but not from Defendant Giuliani, and (4) the
unavailability of key witnesses are more than sufficient to conclude that electronic evidence has
been lost for purposes of Rule 37.
D. Plaintiffs Are Prejudiced By The Loss Of The Electronic Evidence.
Defendant Giuliani’s failure to preserve the Electronic Evidence has severely prejudiced
Plaintiffs’ ability to learn what he knew or did not know—including what information he
received, and what he did or did not do in response to that information—when he published his
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defamatory claims. That information is critical to permit Plaintiffs to evaluate and rebut
Defendant Giuliani’s defense that he did not act with the requisite degree of fault. Rule 37(e)
“leaves judges with discretion to determine how best to assess prejudice in particular cases,”
including how to allocate the burden of proving prejudice. Fed. R. Civ. P. 37(e) advisory
committee's notes on rules – 2015 Amendment. In evaluating prejudice, courts should consider
“the information’s importance in the litigation.” Fed. R. Civ. P. 37(e) advisory committee's notes
on rules – 2015 Amendment. Where it is difficult to determine the content of lost information,
courts must evaluate whether it is fair to place the “burden of proving prejudice on the party that
did not lose the information.” Id; see also Doe, 2023 WL 3558038, at *14–15 (finding plaintiff
was prejudiced by loss of ESI where she came forward with “plausible, concrete suggestions as
to what the destroyed evidence might have been”) (internal citations omitted). In assessing
prejudice, courts may also weigh the time and resources a party spent as a result of the spoliation.
See, e.g., Doe, 2023 WL 3558038, at *15 (finding plaintiff was prejudiced by defendant’s
spoliation by having to spend time conferring with opposing counsel and deposing witnesses on
the issue and filing the sanctions motion)
In this case, Defendant Giuliani argues that because Plaintiffs are public figures (which
Plaintiffs contest), to prove their defamation claim, Plaintiffs must prove that Defendant Giuliani
published his claims with “actual malice.” E.g., ECF No. 26-2 at 8–9, 18–19; ECF No. 33 ¶ 193.
If the actual malice standard applies,3 Plaintiffs will need to prove that Defendant Giuliani knew
his claims were false or that he acted with reckless disregard for the truth. E.g., N.Y. Times Co. v.
Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254, 279–80 (1964). Because defamation defendants typically do not
3
Plaintiffs do not concede that actual malice is the appropriate standard and, to the contrary, as
Plaintiffs will argue in summary judgment briefing, the negligence standard should apply.
- 22 -
acknowledge an “awareness of falsehood,” Herbert v. Lando, 441 U.S. 153, 170 (1979), plaintiffs
in actual malice cases are permitted to discover and “to prove the defendant’s state of mind through
circumstantial evidence.” Harte-Hanks Commc’ns, Inc. v. Connaughton, 491 U.S. 657, 668
(1989); see also Herbert, 441 U.S. at 165 (acknowledging that plaintiffs may discover and use
“any direct or indirect evidence relevant to the state of mind of the defendant”) (emphasis added).
Plaintiffs cannot fairly litigate their claims without access to circumstantial evidence of
Defendant Giuliani’s state of mind—that evidence is vital to Plaintiffs’ ability to rebut Defendant’s
self-serving attestations of good faith belief. The Supreme Court has explained that a defendant’s
unsupported claims of good faith do not resolve the issue of actual malice. St. Amant v. Thompson,
390 U.S. 727, 732 (1968). Instead, good faith defenses can and must be tested through discovery,
including by pursuing evidence that a defendant: fabricated claims out of whole cloth; was aware
that the published claims were false; consciously avoided finding out the truth; relied on wholly
unreliable sources; set out to make facts conform to a preconceived narrative; published their
claims with an ulterior motive; and had economic or other incentives to misrepresent the facts,
among others. See, e.g., Harte-Hanks Commc’ns, Inc., 491 U.S. at 692 (avoidance of the truth);
St. Amant, 390 U.S. at 732 (fabrication and unreliable sources); Herbert, 441 U.S. 153, 163–65 &
nn.12, 15 (improper motive); US Dominion, Inc. v. Powell, 554 F. Supp. 3d 42, 60–61 (D.D.C.
2021) (preconceived narrative of election fraud). Through third-party discovery, Plaintiffs have
developed considerable evidence supporting each of these responses to Defendant Giuliani’s claim
of good faith, yet Plaintiffs have been undermined by Defendant’s discovery misconduct at every
turn. Much of this evidence is also relevant to Plaintiffs’ IIED claim, which requires Plaintiffs to
demonstrate that Defendant Giuliani acted intentionally or recklessly. See ECF No. 31 at 23. And
evidence of whom Defendant Giuliani worked with and the extent of those individuals’ acts in
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defaming and inflicting emotional distress on Plaintiffs is relevant to Plaintiffs’ civil conspiracy
claim. Id.
In this case, Defendant Giuliani’s failure to preserve the Electronic Evidence has severely
prejudiced Plaintiffs’ ability to test his claim that he believed, and did not recklessly disregard the
falsity of, his false claims about Plaintiffs. The following examples are illustrative.
First, as Plaintiffs alleged, Georgia election officials investigated Defendant Giuliani’s
claims in the hours and days after December 3, discovered that they were false, and broadcast
their falsity to the world in refutations that were amplified by fact checking organizations. ECF
No. 22 ¶¶ 40–56. Every message Defendant Giuliani sent or received about these investigations
is probative of Defendant’s actual malice with respect to all of the challenged statements in
Plaintiffs’ Complaint, because they evidence, at a minimum, his knowledge of falsity and
conscious avoidance of the truth.
Defendant has failed to produce any records of having received or discussed these
refutations, despite a clear record that such evidence existed. On December 7, 2020, a Fox News
reporter emailed to ask Defendant Giuliani for comment on one of the key rebuttals, the
December 6, 2020 Affidavit of France Watson. ECF No. 64-7. At his deposition, Defendant
Giuliani testified that, at some point prior to December 8, 2020 (and well before the first
actionable statement on December 23, 2020), he learned of (1) a December 7 press conference,
during which Georgia Voting Implementation Gabriel Sterling specifically rebutted his claims
about Plaintiffs, and Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger re-certified the Georgia
election results after conducting a recount requested by the Trump Campaign; and (2) other,
unspecified actions by Messr. Raffensperger and Sterling “in general.” (Ex. 4 at 328:3–332:4,
376:7–378:11.) Defendant Giuliani testified that this knowledge of the December 7 press
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conference was the basis for his December 8 tweet that, “The Georgia video proves now and for
posterity that crooked Democrat officials stole the votes to try to win the state and Republicans
are covering up for them.” (Id. at 377:17–378:9.) But Defendant Giuliani was not able to specify
when he learned of those rebuttals or what exactly he learned. (See id. at 376:7–378:11). Nor
was Defendant Giuliani able to identify whether he discussed these statements with any other
individuals, in person or via email, text, virtual meeting, or otherwise. Without Defendant
Giuliani’s electronic data, Plaintiffs are not able to learn exactly when Defendant Giuliani learned
of which fact checks, what exactly he learned, and what he did (or did not do) with that
information; that is all evidence that would be highly probative of Defendant’s state of mind with
respect to the subsequent statements he made about Plaintiffs and which would permit Plaintiffs
to learn the identities of other individuals who likely discussed the same with him.
Second, Plaintiffs allege that Defendant Giuliani published his claims about Plaintiffs to
amplify a preconceived narrative of election fraud aimed at ensuring then-President Trump’s
continued tenure in office. ECF No. 22 ¶¶ 9, 24, 132. As such, every record evidencing his
motives and purpose in publishing claims about Plaintiffs is highly probative of Defendant
Giuliani’s state of mind.
Yet again, Defendant Giuliani has failed to produce evidence revealing his purpose in
publishing false claims about Plaintiffs, despite a clear record that such evidence existed. As
noted above, Defendant Giuliani failed to produce a December 7, 2020, text thread where then-
President Trump asked for the “greatest hits” of election fraud examples that didn’t “have to be
proven” but did have to be “super easy to explain,” and Defendant Giuliani responded by
identifying his claims about Plaintiffs. (Ex. 11.) Similarly, Defendant Giuliani failed to produce
an email produced by the January 6th Committee, making clear that he personally signed off on
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Trump Campaign ads depicting Plaintiffs and parroting Defendant Giuliani’s false claims about
Plaintiffs. ECF No. 56-7 at 3. Nor are Plaintiffs able to reconstruct the lost records through good
faith testimony from Defendant Giuliani. After learning of this last email (after Defendant’s
deposition), Plaintiffs propounded Requests for Admission to Defendant Giuliani asking him to
admit that he reviewed and consulted some or all of the Trump Campaign ads featuring Plaintiffs
prior to their airing, and that he provided information to the Campaign about Plaintiffs for the
purpose of that information being used in advertisements to undermine faith in the results of the
2020 Presidential election. (Ex. 12.) To all of those requests, Defendant Giuliani responded that
he “does not recall” whether he reviewed, consulted on, or provided information for Trump
Campaign ads. (Id.)
Third, Plaintiffs allege that Defendant Giuliani conspired with others to carry out his
campaign of defamation and intentional infliction of emotion distress, executing a written
“Strategic Communications Plan” that plotted to use Defendants’ false claims about Plaintiffs
and others as part of a “[n]ationwide communications outreach campaign” to undermine the 2020
election. ECF No. 22 ¶¶ 9–12, 57–64, 187–91. That plan specifically identified Defendant
Giuliani’s claims about Plaintiffs as key evidence. Id. As such, every record evidencing
Defendant Giuliani’s coordination with his team and his team’s amplification of false statements
about Plaintiffs is relevant to Plaintiffs’ claims.
Yet, Defendant Giuliani has failed to produce such records, despite clear indications that
such records existed. For example, Defendant Giuliani’s lead investigator, Bernard Kerik,
testified that Defendant Giuliani is a “very hands on” boss, and that during November and
December 2020 Defendant Giuliani was “in charge” and generally aware of everything Mr. Kerik
and the team did, and that Defendant Giuliani directed everything Mr. Kerik did or did not do.
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(Ex. 6 at 39:7–10; 65:14–22.) At his deposition, Mr. Kerik testified that Defendant Giuliani and
his team were engaged in “continual discussions” about the allegations in the team’s Strategic
Communications Plan for about “six weeks.” (Id. at 95:7–21.) And Mr. Kerik also tweeted out
a thread with screenshots of the Strategic Communications Plan, including a screenshot of the
Georgia section which specifically names Plaintiffs and repeats Defendant Giuliani’s false claims
about them. (Ex. 13.) Defendant Giuliani, for his part, testified that he “disagree[d] with a lot of
what [was] in” the Strategic Communications Plan, that he was opposed to the plan, and that he
didn’t think it was “worth spending the 5 to 8 million dollars” it would take to execute the plan.
(Ex. 4 at 250:14–20; 259:14–260:14.) He also testified that while Mr. Kerik knew Defendant
Giuliani was opposed to the plan, a lot of his communication about the plan was with Katherine
Friess. (Id. at 258:17–259:11.) As for Mr. Kerik’s tweet of the plan, Defendant Giuliani testified
that he’s “not sure” if he was aware of it, though it “sounds kind of familiar.” (Id. at 261:17–25.)
Yet, Defendant Giuliani has effectively not produced any records of his conversations about the
Strategic Communications Plan with anyone, including Bernard Kerik and Katherine Friess, and
Ms. Friess is (as noted above) nowhere to be found.
Fourth, Plaintiffs allege that Defendant Giuliani and his team were the first to publish
claims about Plaintiffs on December 3, 2020, showing a video of Plaintiffs to the world and
initiating their lies. ECF No. 22 ¶¶ 37–39. While Plaintiffs are not suing for defamation over
those initial publications, when Defendant Giuliani learned of the existence of the video, what
exactly he learned, and what he said of the video at the outset is highly probative of his state of
mind on December 3 and afterwards.
Yet, Plaintiffs still do not even know exactly when Defendant Giuliani first learned of the
video at the heart of this case, or what he learned about that video before he spoke about it in
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public. After this Court ordered Defendant Giuliani to supplement his interrogatory responses,
Defendant provided supplemental responses to Plaintiffs’ interrogatories number 3 and 5, noting
that “Defendant generally recalls that he was made aware of the existence of a video the night
before the [December 3, 2020,] hearing.” (Ex. 8.) Third-party discovery has revealed that Ray
Smith, a Georgia lawyer, obtained that video for the Giuliani team at around 1:00 a.m. on the
morning of December 3. (Ex. 9; Ex. 10 at 104:8–15.) Jacki Pick, the woman who first presented
the video of Plaintiffs to the world at the direction of Defendant Giuliani’s team, testified that
certain individuals working with Defendant Giuliani reviewed the video at Mr. Smith’s office in
Atlanta, but that Defendant Giuliani was not there and that he was not patched into any call about
the video. (Ex. 10. at 105:25–108:22.) Jacki Pick did not communicate with Defendant Giuliani
until the next morning, id. at 137:9–16, and Defendant Giuliani testified that he doesn’t recall any
conversations with Mr. Smith about Plaintiffs or the video. (Ex. 4 at 114:24–115:3.) Taken
together, then, someone must have communicated the video’s existence to Defendant Giuliani in
advance of the December 3, 2020 hearing, and presumably that person made certain
representations to Defendant Giuliani about what that video did or did not show. But Plaintiffs
have no record of that communication ever taking place or who was involved, let alone what
precisely was communicated to Defendant Giuliani including about what the video supposedly
showed or how little of the video Smith’s team had been able to review.
***
Unfortunately, as illustrated by the examples described above, Plaintiffs cannot accurately
assess the full scope of evidence that has been lost. Third-party discovery and testimony from
Defendant Giuliani (and others) suggest there should be a considerable amount of discoverable
evidence—at minimum, that evidence would allow Plaintiffs to document when Defendant
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Giuliani learned of key facts relevant to his statements about Plaintiffs. Defendant Giuliani has
admitted that evidence has been wiped and corrupted; and Plaintiffs have received, to date,
minimal documentary discovery. It is not fanciful to presume that Defendant Giuliani’s
numerous sent and received depositories contain concrete evidence acknowledging his lack of
foundation for his claims about Plaintiffs. Former Speaker of the Arizona House of
Representatives, Rusty Bowers, testified to Congress that Defendant Giuliani told him Defendant
Giuliani’s team “just d[idn’t] have the evidence of voter fraud” they alleged occurred in the 2020
election.4
Plaintiffs have also been further prejudiced by Defendant Giuliani’s failure to preserve
the Electronic Evidence in the time and resources expended in uncovering the truth about this
spoliation. Since at least December 21, 2022, Plaintiffs have spent hundreds, if not thousands of
hours, meeting and conferring with counsel for Defendant, briefing the Court, consulting with
discovery experts, and delaying other fact discovery, as a direct result of Defendant Giuliani’s
spoliation and piecemeal admittance of that spoliation. Supra at Relevant Factual Background.
On these facts, the record is clear that Plaintiffs have been severely prejudiced by Defendant’s
loss of relevant evidence.
E. Defendant Giuliani Intended Not To Take Reasonable Steps To Preserve The

Electronic Evidence.
The only explanation for why Defendant Giuliani failed to take any steps to preserve the
Electronic Evidence, let alone reasonable steps, is that he did so deliberately to deny Plaintiffs (and
4
See Ximena Bustillo, Arizona Lawmaker Rusty Bowers Details the Pressure Put on Him by
Trump and Giuliani, NPR (June 21, 2022), https://www.npr.org/2022/06/21/1106413341/arizona-
lawmaker-rusty-bowers-pressure-giuliani.
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the scores of other plaintiffs and government entities litigating and investigating his actions during
and after the 2020 Presidential Election) evidence that would be helpful to their case. A party
deliberately fails to fulfill its preservation obligations when, as Defendant Giuliani did here, it acts
“with the intent to deprive another party of the information’s use in litigation.” Fed. R. Civ. P.
37(e)(2); see, e.g., Mannina, 437 F. Supp. 3d at 14 (granting motion for sanctions on the basis of
negligence where party failed to issue litigation hold until three years into litigation, but did
otherwise request that documents be preserved); Beck v. Test Masters Educ. Servs., 289 F.R.D.
374, 378 (D.D.C. 2013) (noting that failure “to make any serious effort to recover the data” is
enough to demonstrate “a conscious disregard of [] preservation obligations.”); Vasser, 2017 WL
5634860, at *5–6 (granting motion for sanctions where defendants failed to preserve relevant
documents that plaintiffs repeatedly requested).
Defendant Giuliani told this Court that, as an experienced lawyer, he understands his
obligations to take reasonable steps to preserve evidence: “I have been doing this for 50 years; I
understand the obligations.” (Ex. 2 at 68:5–6.) It is hardly a leap from that concession to infer
that Defendant Giuliani also understands what is required to satisfy such obligations.
Understanding one’s obligations yet choosing not to fulfill them is textbook willfulness.
WILLFULNESS, Black’s Law Dictionary (11th ed. 2019) (“The voluntary, intentional violation
or disregard of a known legal duty.”) Plaintiffs also specifically asked counsel for Defendant on
both December 21, 2022 and February 6, 2023 whether Defendant Giuliani had fulfilled his
preservation obligations. Plaintiffs also moved to compel Defendant to confirm that he had
fulfilled his preservation obligations on April 17, 2023 and the Court ordered him to do so on May
19, 2023. Despite all of this, Defendant Giuliani failed to take any reasonable preservation steps—
even today, he has not taken any. This Court has more than sufficient evidence to conclude that
- 30 -
Defendant Giuliani’s years-long failure, in light of his personal knowledge of his obligations and
reminders from Plaintiffs and the Court, has been intentional. See, e.g., Vasser, 2017 WL 5634860,
at *6 (ordering sanctions for spoliation where defendant “not only knew or should have known
that these documents were relevant, it knew the Plaintiff had requested them (and ha[d] done so at
every stage of this litigation), yet it failed to preserve them”) (emphasis added).
F. The Court Should Order Sanctions.
1. The Court should order default judgment against Defendant Giuliani on

liability.
Although default judgment is the most severe sanction available, Plaintiffs respectfully
submit that a default judgment on liability is warranted on these egregious facts. The D.C. Circuit
Court of Appeals has outlined “three basic justifications [to] support the use of dismissal or default
judgment as a sanction for misconduct,” any one of which alone can be the basis for entering
default judgment. Webb v. District of Columbia, 146 F.3d 964, 971 (D.C. Cir. 1998). Here, at
least two of those three justifications apply and therefore warrant default judgment as to Defendant
Giuliani’s liability: (1) Defendant Giuliani’s “behavior has severely hampered” Plaintiffs’ ability
to present their case as to actual malice, and (2) Defendant Giuliani’s conduct, particularly as a
barred attorney, “is disrespectful to the court.” Id.5
5
Default judgment could also be an appropriate sanction here as Defendant Giuliani’s delay tactics
have not only required Plaintiffs to seek case extensions both past and anticipated, but this Court
has already had to schedule three discovery hearings to address various disputes, many of which
have stemmed from said delay tactics. In spite of the multitudinous hearings and Court orders,
Defendant Giuliani has transparently flouted his discovery obligations at every turn. A default
judgment on liability would therefore also be appropriate due to the degree to which Defendant
Giuliani’s spoliation has stalled discovery and consumed Court resources. See U.S. Bank Nat’l
Ass’n v. Poblete, No. CV 15-312 (BAH), 2017 WL 598471, at *6 (D.D.C. Feb. 14, 2017) (finding
the second element met where “[defendant’s] failure to respond to discovery and penchant for
instead filing irrelevant documents with the Court has stalled this litigation”); Guarantee Co. of N.
Am. USA, 2021 WL 2036666, at *4 (finding the second element met and noting that “[t]ime and
- 31 -
First, as discussed supra, Defendant Giuliani’s deliberate failure to preserve his electronic
evidence has severely hampered Plaintiffs’ ability to fully present their case as to liability. Given
that Defendant Giuliani plainly made false and defamatory statements regarding Plaintiffs, the
crux of Plaintiffs’ case is likely to be whether Defendant Giuliani knew the statements were false
or recklessly disregarded their falsity. Plaintiffs are therefore entitled to a default judgment on
liability because of Defendant Giuliani’s spoliation and blatant disregard for his discovery
obligations, including with respect to evidence of his state of mind. See Guarantee Co. of N. Am.
USA, 2021 WL 2036666, at *4 (entering default judgment where “Defendants’ wholesale failure
to comply with their discovery obligations and participate in this litigation . . . made it all but
impossible for Plaintiff to present its case”).
Second, and similarly, Defendant Giuliani—despite being an attorney for over 50 years
and barred in this District—has disrespected this Court by knowingly ignoring his discovery
obligations. See U.S. Bank Nat’l Ass’n v. Poblete, No. CV 15-312 (BAH), 2017 WL 598471, at
*6 (D.D.C. Feb. 14, 2017) (finding third element met where defendant “demonstrated utter
disrespect for the Court’s deadlines and a need to deter further noncompliance” by employing
tactics “plainly intended to do nothing more than delay the resolution of this matter”).6 And
resources the Court has had to spend on Defendants’ contumaciousness can never be recovered
and applied toward resolving other matters”).
6
Certain district courts within this Circuit, as well as other circuits, have determined that the three-
factor test set forth in Section F.2 inrfa also applies with respect to default judgment sanctions.
See Borum, 332 F.R.D. at 44 (applying the three-factor test and noting that “[a]vailable sanctions
include default judgment, fines, and awards of attorneys’ fees and expenses, among others”);
Victor Stanley, Inc. v. Creative Pipe, Inc., 269 F.R.D. 497, 521 (D. Md. 2010) (observing that, in
addition to the Fourth Circuit, “District courts in the Second, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, and Ninth
Circuits have identified the same factors for sanction-worthy spoliation”), aff’d in part, modified
in part, No. CV MJG-06-2662, 2010 WL 11747756 (D. Md. Nov. 1, 2010).
- 32 -
Defendant Giuliani’s disrespect for this Court evidences a need to deter future misconduct
particularly because Defendant Giuliani is currently litigating several cases with “pending requests
for discovery.” (Ex. 7 at 22:6–12.) Issuing the most severe of sanctions here may dissuade
Defendant Giuliani from employing the same unlawful tactics in his other pending cases.
2. The Court should order adverse inferences against Defendant Giuliani.
Short of entering default judgment on liability, the Court should enter adverse inferences
against Defendant Giuliani. Adverse inferences are appropriate where, as here, Plaintiffs have
shown that (1) Defendant Giuliani had control over the Electronic Evidence and had an obligation
to preserve it; (2) the failure to preserve was accompanied by a culpable state of mind; and (3)
the evidence that was destroyed or altered was relevant to Plaintiffs’ claims. See Zhi Chen v.
District of Columbia., 839 F. Supp. 2d 7, 13 (D.D.C. 2011) (ordering adverse inferences where
defendant was plainly aware of duty to preserve video evidence and failed to do so).
First, Defendant Giuliani plainly had possession, custody, or control over the Electronic
Evidence such that he could have preserved it at some time since Plaintiffs filed suit. Of the
Electronic Evidence, Plaintiffs understand that Defendant Giuliani has always had control of: his
three personal email accounts, his iCloud account, his three phone numbers, his three messaging
applications, his five social media handles, and two devices. Plaintiffs understand that seven of
Defendant Giuliani’s Devices were seized in April 2021 and returned no later than August 2022—
just three months after Plaintiffs first served discovery in this case. See ECF No. 44-5. And
Defendant Giuliani has admitted that he had an obligation to preserve the Electronic Evidence
For the same reasons set forth in Section F.2, an entry of default as to liability is appropriate
applying the three-factor test: (1) Defendant Giuliani clearly had possession, custody, or control
of the spoliated evidence; (2) Defendant Giuliani deliberately spoliated the evidence (i.e., with a
culpable state of mind); and (3) the evidence was highly relevant to Plaintiffs’ claims.
- 33 -
prior to Plaintiffs’ ever filing suit. ECF No. 60 ¶ 2 (acknowledging “receiving notice of potential
litigation issues surrounding my involvement in contesting the 2020 Election in late 2020 or early
2021” triggering preservation obligations).
Second, as already discussed at length, see supra at pp. 17–19, 30–31, Defendant Giuliani
acted with a culpable state of mind by failing to preserve the Electronic Evidence in light of
Plaintiffs’ repeated requests and his own professional knowledge. See Vasser, 2017 WL
5634860, at *6.
Third, the Electronic Evidence was relevant. While the inquiry of whether unpreserved
documents were relevant is “unavoidably imperfect,” here the evidence Plaintiffs have obtained
from third-parties clearly demonstrates that the Electronic Evidence Defendant Giuliani failed to
preserve was highly relevant to Plaintiffs’ claims for defamation, IIED, and conspiracy. Id.
(explaining that the court may draw an inference of relevance based on a very slight showing that
the documents are relevant). See supra at pp. 6–9, 17.
Therefore, if this Court is not inclined to enter default judgment, it should order the following
adverse inferences against Defendant:
1. Defendant Giuliani spoliated significant relevant evidence contained on his personal and
professional devices and personal and professional accounts.
2. Prior to December 23, 2020, Defendant Giuliani acted with reckless disregard for the truth
by avoiding and ignoring, or knew and understood, the falsity of the following statements:
(1) Ruby Freeman has a criminal history; (2) Ruby Freeman and/or Shaye Moss excluded
election observers from State Farm Arena under false pretenses, including but not limited
to, because of a fake water leak; (3) Ruby Freeman and/or Shaye Moss locked the doors to
State Farm Arena to keep election observers out; (4) Ruby Freeman and/or Shaye Moss
passed each other a USB drive to illegally manipulate the vote count; (5) Ruby Freeman
and/or Shaye Moss counted ballots multiple times; (6) Ruby Freeman and/or Shaye Moss
hid suitcases of illegal ballots; (7) Ruby Freeman and/or Shaye Moss engaged in voter
fraud (together, the “Defamatory Claims”).
3. Prior to December 23, 2020, Defendant Giuliani acted with reckless disregard for the truth
by avoiding and ignoring, or knew and understood, that Georgia and federal officials had
investigated and disproved the Defamatory Claims (with the exception of the claims
- 34 -
regarding USB drives), because the investigations and their findings were: (1) widely
published and reported on, (2) sent to Defendant Giuliani, (3) freely and easily accessible
to any member of the public, and (4) directly relevant to the Defamatory Claims.
4. Defendant Giuliani acted with reckless disregard for the truth by avoiding and ignoring, or
knew and understood, that the Defamatory Claims were false because: (1) Defendant
Giuliani and his team had consciously avoided investigating the purported basis for the
Defamatory claims; (2) Defendant Giuliani and his team had no credible evidence or
sources supporting the Defamatory Claims; and (3) Defendant Giuliani and his team
pursued the Defamatory Claims based on political and public relations objectives rather
than a belief that the Defamatory Claims were truthful in fact.
5. Defendant Giuliani published and spread the Defamatory Claims for his personal benefit,
including his political, professional, and financial interests.
6. Defendant Giuliani knew his actions would cause Plaintiffs emotional distress and
nonetheless intentionally and recklessly proceeded.
7. Defendant Giuliani made an agreement with his then-client, President Donald Trump,
along with other individuals working for or volunteering with President Trump and his
campaign, to publish the Defamatory Claims.
8. Before publishing the Defamatory Claims, Defendant Giuliani knew that each
Defamatory Claim he made on his podcasts, his radio show, during interviews with One
America News Network, on Twitter, and through other mediums, could potentially be
heard by tens of millions of individuals, and intended his Defamatory Claims to be heard
by as many people as possible.
3. The Court should preclude Defendant Giuliani from relying on any of

the unpreserved electronic evidence.
If this Court does not enter default judgment, the Court should, along with the adverse
inferences discussed earlier, preclude Defendant from relying on any of the Electronic
Evidence—he failed to preserve and produce this evidence and therefore he should be precluded
from using it to his benefit. Courts in this District order preclusion where one party’s conduct
has prejudiced the other party’s ability to litigate its case. See, e.g., Klayman v. Judicial Watch,
256 F.R.D. 258 (D.D.C. 2009) (precluding plaintiff, an experienced lawyer representing himself
pro se, from testifying to or admitting any evidence in support of his damage claims or his alleged
defenses to defendants’ counterclaims where he had failed produce significant documentary
- 35 -
evidence and prejudiced the judicial system by failing to comply with court orders regarding
discovery); United States v. Philip Morris USA, Inc., 327 F. Supp. 2d 21, 25 (D.D.C. 2004)
(precluding defendant from calling as fact or expert witnesses at trial any individual who has
failed to comply with its internal data retention program). As already demonstrated, Defendant
Giuliani’s failure to preserve has significantly prejudiced Plaintiffs such that preclusion is
appropriate here.
Specifically, the Court should order that Defendant is prohibited from:
1. arguing, in summary judgment, at trial, or otherwise, that anything contained in the

Electronic Evidence ever existed or would have supported his defense,
2. offering evidence, in summary judgment, at trial, or otherwise, about the contents of the
Electronic Evidence, and
3. arguing, in summary judgment, at trial, or otherwise, the reach of the Defamatory Claims,
including, but not limited to, the number of impressions, views, or clicks estimated by
Plaintiffs’ damages expert.7
G. In the Alternative, the Court Could Order Defendant Giuliani to Produce His
Devices to Plaintiffs
Should the Court conclude that adverse inferences or default judgment are not yet
warranted, as an interim step (or in conjunction with any of the sanctions described above), the
Court should compel Defendant Giuliani to make all his devices and accounts available for
collection and inspection by Plaintiffs’ vendors, at Defendant Giuliani’s expense. The Court
should permit Plaintiffs’ discovery vendor to determine whether any evidence was lost and then
permit Plaintiffs to renew a motion for sanctions.
7
If the Court declines to preclude Defendant Giuliani from disputing the number of impressions
estimated by Plaintiffs’ expert, Plaintiffs request that the Court permit Plaintiffs to instead submit
an adverse inference based on Plaintiffs’ expert’s report at a later date.
- 36 -
Plaintiffs note that any order along these lines will necessitate a significant delay in this
litigation, prejudicing Plaintiffs ability to move this case to resolution expeditiously. Fact
discovery has closed; the time for Defendant to have carried his discovery obligations is long past.
Undertaking a full forensic review of Defendant Giuliani’s devices at this point would delay this
litigation by many months, at minimum. Accordingly, rather than effectively re-open and
dramatically extend fact discovery, Plaintiffs respectfully submit that the more appropriate course
in these circumstances is to award Plaintiffs the alternative relief delineated above.
II. THE COURT SHOULD AWARD PLAINTIFFS’ FEES AND COSTS.
The Court should award Plaintiffs’ fees and costs. The Court may impose monetary
sanctions pursuant to Rule 37(e)(1). See Doe, 2023 WL 3558038, at *16 (awarding attorneys’ fees
and costs for Rule 37(e) motion); see also Zhi Chen, 839 F. Supp. 2d at 16 (same). Defendant
Giuliani’s obstructive and bad-faith approach to discovery necessitated this Motion, and therefore
should be required to cover the cost of the reasonable attorneys’ fees and costs associated with
bringing this motion. See Zhi Chen, 839 F. Supp. 2d at 16–17 (explaining that an “award of fees
and costs serves the remedial purpose of compensating” the movant “for the reasonable costs it
incurred in bringing” the motion for sanctions) (internal quotations omitted).
- 37 -
DATED: July 11, 2023
/s/ Michael J. Gottlieb

UNITED TO PROTECT DEMOCRACY WILLKIE FARR & GALLAGHER
John Langford LLP
Rachel Goodman Michael J. Gottlieb (974960)
82 Nassau Street, #601 Meryl C. Governski (1023549)
New York, NY 10038 Timothy P. Ryan (1719055)
Tel: (202) 579-4582 J. Tyler Knoblett (1672514)
john.langford@protectdemocracy.org 1875 K Street NW
rachel.goodman@protectdemocracy.org Washington, DC 20006
Tel: (202) 303-1000
Christine Kwon* Fax: (202) 303-2000
555 W. 5th St. mgottlieb@willkie.com
Los Angeles, CA 90013 mgovernski@willkie.com
Tel: (919) 619-9819 tryan@willkie.com
Christine.kwon@protectdemocracy.com jknoblett@willkie.com
Sara Chimene-Weiss* WILLKIE FARR & GALLAGHER LLP

7000 N. 16th St. Ste. 120, #430 M. Annie Houghton-Larsen
Phoenix, AZ 85020 787 7th Avenue
Tel: (202) 579-4582 New York, New York
Sara.chimene-weiss@protectdemocracy.org Tel: (212) 728-8164
Fax: (212) 728-9164
Brittany Williams** mhoughton-larsen@willkie.com
15 Main St., Suite 312
Watertown, MA 02472
Tel: (202) 579-4582
brittany.williams@protectdemocracy.org
DUBOSE MILLER LLC

Von A. DuBose
75 14th Street NE
Suite 2110
Atlanta, GA 30309
Tel: (404) 720-8111
dubose@dubosemiller.com
*admitted pro hac vice

** Pro hac vice application forthcoming
- 38 -
Attorneys for Plaintiffs Ruby Freeman and

Wandrea’ Moss
- 39 -
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I hereby certify that on July 11, 2023, the foregoing document was filed with the Clerk of the Court
of the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia by using the CM/ECF system, which will
automatically generate and serve notices of this filing to all counsel of record.
Dated: July 11, 2023

WILLKIE FARR & GALLAGHER LLP
Michael J. Gottlieb (974960)
1875 K Street, #100
Washington, DC 20006
Tel: (202) 303-1000
Fax: (202) 303-2000
mgottlieb@willkie.com
Case 1:21-cv-03354-BAH Document 81-1 Filed 07/11/23 Page 1 of 5
THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

Defendant.
DECLARATION OF MICHAEL J. GOTTLIEB IN SUPPORT OF PLAINTIFFS’

MOTION FOR DISCOVERY SANCTIONS AGAINST DEFENDANT GIULIANI FOR
FAILURE TO PRESERVE ELECTRONIC EVIDENCE
I, Michael J. Gottlieb, pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 1746 hereby declare as follows:
1. I am over 18 years of age, of sound mind, and otherwise competent to make this
Declaration. The evidence set out in the following Declaration is based on my personal
knowledge.
2. I represent Plaintiffs Ruby Freeman and Wandrea’ ArShaye Moss in the above-
captioned case, and submit this Declaration in support of the Plaintiffs’ Motion for Rule 37(e)
Discovery Sanctions Against Defendant Giuliani for Failure to Preserve Electronic Evidence (the
“Motion”).
3. Ms. Bobb produced to Plaintiffs highly relevant communications with Defendant
Giuliani, including: a text thread discussing sending a video of Plaintiffs to Rusty Bowers, then
the Speaker of the Arizona House of Representatives, ECF No. 56-3, and an August 17, 2022,
direct message with Ms. Bobb on Instagram, ECF No. 56-4. Defendant Giuliani never produced
either of these communications. These communications were not included on Defendant

Giuliani’s supplemental privilege log.
4. The January 6 Committee made public a December 13, 2020, email from
Defendant Giuliani to Boris Epshteyn, an advisor to the 2020 Trump Campaign, approving a draft
statement from the Trump Legal Team, which reiterates Defendant’s false claims about Plaintiffs:
“Georgia has video evidence of 30,000 illegal ballots cast after the observers were removed.”
ECF No. 56-7 at 3. Defendant Giuliani never produced this email. This email was not included
on Defendant Giuliani’s supplemental privilege log.
5. Plaintiffs have additional examples of relevant documents and communications
obtained from third parties that were not produced by Defendant Giuliani.
6. On June 16, 2023, Defendant Giuliani produced 4,902 TrustPoint files to
Plaintiffs. Of those files, 3,233 are .txt files. Txt files are generally non-usable, non-readable
raw data, and 2,350 of the .txt files produced by Defendant Giuliani are what are known as
“blobs”—non-readable, non-usable computer code files. The non-text files include non-readable
computer code, emails advertising a year-long spiritual apprenticeship course, information
packets regarding Microsoft updates (in five different languages, articles and memes regarding
the death of George Floyd, and death notices form the Washington Post.
7. On June 29, 2023, Defendant’s counsel provided Plaintiffs with a sealed motion
filed by Defendant Giuliani’s criminal defense counsel in In re Search Warrant Dated April 21,
2021, 21-MJ-4335 (S.D.N.Y.). That motion makes clear that the records collected in the
TrustPoint database were collected as part of an investigation into a possible Foreign Agents
Registration Act violation “involving Ukrainian individuals, Ambassador Maria Yovanovitch
and the office of the U.S. Ambassador to the Ukraine; a trip by Giuliani to Poland in 2019 and
issues involving Franklin Templeton and funds misappropriated from the Ukraine.” In that
-2-
motion, Defendant Giuliani’s criminal defense counsel requested that the New York court order
the Government to suppress and destroy the majority of records contained in the TrustPoint
database, and limit any remaining records to a time period between 2018 and 2019.
8. On June 30, 2023, Defendant Giuliani made an additional production of 3,407
documents from TrustPoint. As with the prior production on June 16, 2023, the majority of the
production appears to be non-responsive junk files, including at least 248 blob files, 141 Apple
information packets in various languages, and additional death notices form the Washington Post.
9. On July 6, counsel for Defendant Giuliani reached out to Plaintiffs’ counsel offering to
discuss whether an agreement might be reached in lieu of Plaintiffs filing this motion. In response
to that outreach, counsel for each of the parties negotiated over the course of two days in an effort
to reach such an agreement. The parties filed a motion seeking a brief extension of time to file
this Motion when it appeared by late afternoon on Friday, July 7 that counsel appeared to be
within reach of key principles on such an agreement. The representations made in that Motion
relied upon representations from Counsel for Plaintiffs and Defendant Giuliani. On the morning
of July 10, counsel for Defendant Giuliani communicated to Plaintiffs for the first time that
Defendant Giuliani had a different view than his counsel regarding the key principles referenced
above, and accordingly, the agreement that had been contemplated and discussed previously was
not achievable.
10. Attached as Exhibit 1 is a true and correct copy of an email chain between counsel
for Plaintiffs and counsel for Defendant dated February 6, 2023.
11. Attached as Exhibit 2 is a true and correct excerpted copy of the transcript from
the May 19, 2023 discovery hearing in this action.
12. Attached as Exhibit 3 is a true and correct copy of Defendant Giuliani’s
-3-
supplemental privilege log dated October 13, 2022.
Defendant Giuliani’s March 1, 2023 deposition in this action.
third-party Christina Bobb’s May 16, 2023 deposition in this action.
third-party Bernard Kerik’s March 20, 2023 deposition in this action.
the March 21, 2023 discovery hearing in this action.
supplemental responses to Plaintiffs’ First Set of Interrogatories, dated March 30, 2023.
18. Attached as Exhibit 9 is a true and correct copy of an email chain produced by
Ray S. Smith III with redactions dated December 2, 2020 to December 3, 2020.
third-party Jacki Pick’s May 9, 2023 deposition in this action.
20. Attached as Exhibit 11 is a true and correct copy of a text exchange produced by
Christina Bobb with redactions dated December 7, 2020.
Responses and Objections to Plaintiffs’ Fifth Set of Requests for Admission, dated July 5, 2023.
22. Attached as Exhibit 13 is a true and correct copy of a tweet by Bernard Kerik,
dated December 27, 2020 at 6:27 PM.
23. I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct.
Executed on July 11, 2023.
-4-

WILLKIE FARR & GALLAGHER LLP
MICHAEL J. GOTTLIEB
1875 K Street, #100
Tel: (202) 303-1000
Fax: (202) 303-2000
mgottlieb@willkie.com
Attorney for Plaintiffs Ruby Freeman and

Wandrea’ Moss
-5-
EXHIBIT 1
From: Joe Sibley

To: Houghton-Larsen, M Annie
Cc: Gottlieb, Michael; Governski, Meryl Conant; Knoblett, John Tyler; MacCurdy, Maggie; John Langford
Subject: Re: Freeman v. Giuliani - Rescheduled Deposition
Date: Monday, February 6, 2023 11:26:34 AM
*** EXTERNAL EMAIL ***
Annie -- this week is very tough.
Can you all do Feb 15th?
Best, Joe
On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 8:20 AM Houghton-Larsen, M Annie <MHoughton-

Larsen@willkie.com> wrote:
Joe,
Please find an updated deposition subpoena for Mr. Giuliani attached—as discussed, it lists
the new deposition date as February 23, 2023 and location as Willkie’s New York offices.
As you and my colleague Mike discussed, the postponement of Mr. Giuliani’s deposition
provides us with the opportunity to resolve some of our outstanding disputes.
Meet and Confer Request
We are available to meet and confer regarding our letter dated January 13 regarding Mr.
Giuliani’s invocations of privilege.
Please provide times in the next two weeks to meet and confer regarding this issue.
Outstanding Requests for Production
As detailed in our two deficiency letters and discussed on numerous meet and confers, Mr.
Giuliani has not complied with his basic discovery obligations. Specifically, we have asked
for confirmation that Mr. Giuliani has preserved, searched, and produced documents from
his e-mail accounts, devices, social media accounts, messaging applications, or other
electronic devices for documents responsive to our Requests for Production.

You have previously represented that you are not aware of whether Mr. Giuliani has
preserved his documents from these sources. You have represented that Mr. Giuliani has
not produced documents from these sources.
We are again requesting confirmation of whether Mr. Giuliani has preserved, searched, and
produced documents from his e-mail accounts, devices, social media accounts, messaging
applications, or other electronic devices for documents responsive to our Requests for
Production.
Because Mr. Giuliani has not complied with his discovery obligations, we are requesting to
hold Mr. Giuliani’s deposition open.
Un-Verified Interrogatories
We have also previously noted that Mr. Giuliani has not verified all of his interrogatory
responses. We are again asking that Mr. Giuliani verify all interrogatory responses before
his deposition.
Thanks,
Annie
M.Annie Houghton-Larsen
Willkie Farr & Gallagher LLP
787 Seventh Avenue | New York, NY 10019-6099
Direct: +1 212 728 8164 | Fax: +1 212 728 9164
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partners.
EXHIBIT 2
Case 1:21-cv-03354-BAH Document 81-3 Filed 07/11/23 Page 2 of 47 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
RUBY FREEMAN, et al., ) Civil Action
Plaintiffs, ) No. 21-3354
vs. )
)
RUDOLPH GIULIANI, ) May 19, 2023
) 11:07 a.m.
Defendant. ) Washington, D.C.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
TRANSCRIPT OF MOTION HEARING

BEFORE THE HONORABLE BERYL A. HOWELL,
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT JUDGE
APPEARANCES:
FOR PLAINTIFFS: MERYL CONANT GOVERNSKI

MICHAEL GOTTLIEB
Willkie Farr & Gallagher LLP
1875 K Street, Suite 100
(202) 303-1016
Email: mgovernski@willkie.com
JOHN LANGFORD
Protect Democracy
555 W. 5th Street
Los Angeles, CA 90013
(919) 619-9819
Email: john.langford@protectdemocracy.org
FOR DEFENSE: JOSEPH D. SIBLEY, IV

Camara & Sibley LLP
1108 Lavaca Street
Suite 110263
Austin, TX 78701
(713) 966-6789
Email: sibley@camarasibley.com
Court Reporter: Elizabeth Saint-Loth, RPR, FCRR

Official Court Reporter
Washington, D.C. 20001
Proceedings reported by machine shorthand.

Transcript produced by computer-aided transcription.
Excerpted
1 Our own discovery, which we have painstakingly
2 tried to receive from third parties illustrates that there
3 are responsive materials. There are responsive text
4 messages. There are responsive messages on social media.
5 There are responsive messages in email that he has not
6 produced.
7 THE COURT: Okay. So I anticipate having seen
8 some of this in the opposition to the motion to compel
9 that -- where Mr. Giuliani says that it would cost $320,000
10 to access the archive Trustpoint data. And I would expect
11 that he might also claim cost issues with retaining a
12 professional vendor to do what is now the norm in any civil
13 case to collect, preserve, and search data in an organized
14 fashion.
15 But given this resistance on the basis of cost, do
16 you think a first step, before moving to this first full
17 paragraph of your proposed order, would be to obtain
18 financial records from Mr. Giuliani since he has raised his
19 inability to pay, and then set up a process whereby those
20 financial records, which are in the RFPs, Nos. 40 and 41,
21 are produced to plaintiffs? Plaintiffs get an assessment,
22 is his claim of poverty accurate or not? Get an assessment;
23 get Mr. Giuliani's response to whatever that assessment is.
24 And then we can take it from there for whether -- you know,
25 use of a computer forensic expert is something within his

1 ability to pay or accessing the Trustpoint archive data,
2 which seems like it would hold the bulk of information that
3 might be responsive since some responsive documents have
4 already been found there, but the search was not within the
5 appropriate date range nor across all file types.
6 So would that be, as a procedural step, a way to
7 approach at least the first part of the proposed order?
8 MS. GOVERNSKI: That makes sense to us,
9 Your Honor. We do believe that that is, at a minimum, the
10 first step that -- that should occur here. Because claims
11 of undue burden and attempts to cost shift, you need actual
12 evidence of the need and the financial inability to comply
13 with the basic rules of discovery.
14 I also would proffer, though, that cost shifting
15 doesn't even -- isn't even triggered until it's
16 inaccessible. And we don't know that it's inaccessible,
17 Your Honor, because, first of all, Trustpoint was --
18 THE COURT: Yes. This but this is like -- this is
19 the step before making a determination, whether it's
20 accessible or inaccessible, because he's saying he can't
21 even afford the first step of a professional vendor or to
22 access the Trustpoint dataset to make that determination.
23 MS. GOVERNSKI: Well, I would proffer, Your Honor,
24 that the Trustpoint is a little bit of a red herring, as is
25 the $350,000.
1 THE COURT: 320, I think, is what he said.
2 MS. GOVERNSKI: Excuse me. Thank you.
3 He has indicated that part of that cost is that he
4 is in arrears. It's unclear exactly what portion of that is
5 to make up for whatever archiving costs existed before and
6 what costs -- what amount of that actually it would cost to
7 do what we need to do.
8 I will say that we went ahead and asked our vendor
9 what it would cost if we were to start with the devices. I
10 believe we estimated not all of them because there were 18
11 devices seized. We are not saying that we need --
12 THE COURT: It was 19.
13 MS. GOVERNSKI: 19.
14 We don't need all of them. But our estimate was
15 far more reasonable. I think it was the range of 8500 to 15
16 or 16,000. So I think probably a first step in tandem, with
17 whether Mr. Giuliani is unable to actually pay anything
18 towards his discovery obligations, is also to look at other
19 vendors who may be able to start with the devices and leave
20 Trustpoint out of it, which has been our point and what we
21 have been stressing for over a year.
22 THE COURT: All right. So I have read through the
23 various emails, but I haven't tried to count it up, that the
24 defense has produced privilege logs to the plaintiffs.
25 And so in this first paragraph of the proposed

1 order it asked for a privilege log. And I am just
2 wondering: Is that going to be redundant to the privilege
3 logs you have already received --
4 MS. GOVERNSKI: So, Your Honor --
5 THE COURT: -- and could you explain that?
6 MS. GOVERNSKI: Of course.
7 The only privilege log that we received was with
8 respect to the Dominion documents.
9 As Your Honor knows, very early we received a
10 little bit over 1,000 documents which were what Mr. Giuliani
11 produced in response to the Dominion RFPs. I believe that
12 those RFPs were noticed and the search occurred before we
13 even noticed our RFPs -- before we even served our RFPs.
14 I also will note that that collection occurred
15 after the seizure of Mr. Giuliani's devices. So the
16 Dominion docs, the collection from which that set was
17 derived, are paper files that happened to be in his
18 apartment; they are materials that his counsel collected in
19 connection with his D.C. and New York Bar grievances; and
20 they are some third-party documents from Christianne Allen
21 and Christina Bobb.
22 By the way, productions from both of those two
23 third-party witnesses have resulted in documents that were
24 not included in the Dominion batch.
25 THE COURT: Yes. I am going to call those the

1 missing documents. I have a number of questions about
2 those, but we will get to that later.
3 MS. GOVERNSKI: Thank you.
4 So my understanding of the privilege log is that
5 that was created from -- it was a collective effort amongst
6 various individuals who were responding and producing
7 documents in response to litigation relating to the post
8 2020 election efforts. So it wasn't solely
9 Defendant Giuliani's privilege log, it was a privilege log
10 across individuals of the Trump campaign and other
11 individuals who claim to be in a common interest.
12 So we received -- so this is my understanding from
13 much back and forth with Mr. Sibley; that he produced these
14 Dominion docs, he also produced a privilege log with them.
15 We went back to him and said, are all of these
16 documents even responsive to our request? Can you give us a
17 narrowed privilege log? So then he gave us a narrowed
18 privilege log from that Dominion document privilege log.
19 That is the only privilege log that we have in the case.
20 So his search of Trustpoint, which original search
21 was 50,000 documents, narrowed to 400, narrowed to under 200
22 that were actually produced -- 50 of which were blank. So
23 we have in total from Trustpoint, I don't know, 120-ish
24 documents, we have no privilege log associated with
25 Trustpoint.
1 We also have no privilege --
2 THE COURT: Okay. Now I understand.
3 I knew that there was more than one privilege log.
4 But what you are saying is it's, like, there was an
5 overarching privilege log and then a subset of the single
6 privilege log all related to the Dominion production, but
7 nothing related to Trustpoint, nothing related to any of the
8 manual searches that Mr. Giuliani did himself, nothing
9 related to any other production that's been made.
10 MS. GOVERNSKI: That's my understanding,
11 Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Okay. Now I understand. Okay.
13 And so then the next part, and I am going to go
14 back to some of these issues.
15 The next part of the proposed order asked for
16 Mr. Giuliani to file a declaration subject to penalty of
17 perjury detailing all of his efforts to preserve, collect,
18 search potentially responsive data and locations, a complete
19 list of all of those locations, and data that he used to
20 communicate about any material that might be responsive in
21 this case, including specific email accounts, text messages,
22 applications of social media, et cetera.
23 What the specific data is on the Trustpoint
24 database -- and, by that, I presume you mean what were the
25 specific electronic devices seized by the FBI on April 27th,

1 2021, that was then dumped in the Trustpoint dataset?
2 Is that what you mean?
3 MS. GOVERNSKI: I think it goes beyond devices,
4 Your Honor. I think it includes what specific email
5 accounts were captured.
6 We now know that Defendant Giuliani had at least
7 five different emails, potentially more. Some may predate
8 that seizure, so it may be three or four before that
9 seizure. We don't know what emails are captured in that.
10 We don't know what messaging applications are captured in
11 that. We don't know what text messages are captured in
12 that.
13 In Mr. Sibley's filing with the Court from
14 March 24th, he did indicate that there were text messages
15 and messaging applications in Trustpoint which -- but those
16 weren't produced. So whatever happened to them, the fact
17 that they exist in there is irrelevant to their discovery
18 obligations because they haven't searched for them or
19 produced them.
20 THE COURT: Well, I think you -- I think
21 Mr. Sibley has been clear that he only searched for email.
22 MS. GOVERNSKI: Exactly. But we don't know what
23 emails, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Right. And for -- but you don't know
25 from which email accounts --

1 MS. GOVERNSKI: Exactly.
2 THE COURT: -- were searched?
3 MS. GOVERNSKI: He had a Gmail account that he has
4 testified was -- he used for 90 percent of his
5 communications. He also had an iCloud account that we know
6 he used for communications prior to the seizure. He also
7 had work accounts, Giuliani Partners; potentially Giuliani
8 Communications, it's unclear. And there is a @me email
9 account, it's not clear if that was pre or post seizure.
10 And then there is this Proton account which I believe is
11 post seizure.
12 In other words, we don't know what emails are even
13 in there.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MS. GOVERNSKI: And one other thing -- just going
16 back to Trustpoint. You know, we don't even know the exact
17 reason those devices were seized, if they were even seized
18 in connection to anything related to post election 2020.
19 So, you know, regardless of what repositories are
20 actually in Trustpoint, we're not entirely clear if even
21 what is in there would capture the universe.
22 I understand that they have made representations
23 to that effect, but it's not entirely clear to us or we
24 don't have the evidentiary -- you know, separate evidentiary
25 support about what content is actually in there.

1 THE COURT: Okay. So the response in the
2 opposition to this request for this declaration with all of
3 this detail is that Mr. Giuliani has now sat for a
4 deposition with the plaintiffs. He's submitted the March
5 24, 2023, report in response to this Court's order. He has
6 submitted his -- another declaration that was submitted as
7 an attachment to the opposition to the plaintiffs' motion to
8 compel.
9 So from, I guess, the defendant's perspective,
10 what is it about all of those instances where he has talked
11 about what he did in discovery in this case that still falls
12 short of detailing his preservation efforts, locations of
13 all sources of data, and searches he has already conducted.
14 MS. GOVERNSKI: Well, I very much appreciate the
15 question --
16 THE COURT: Specifically, let's start with the
17 deposition because the response has been they had an
18 opportunity to talk to him about that.
19 Did you or did you not take that opportunity?
20 MS. GOVERNSKI: We did, Your Honor.
21 My colleague, Mr. Gottlieb, asked Mr. Giuliani
22 during his deposition -- and I would refer the Court to
23 Docket 44-9, which is excerpts of the deposition, pages 290
24 to 292.
25 Specifically, Mr. Gottlieb asked whether he -- he

Excerpted
1 searching on Trustpoint and, generally, we know that the
2 data sources were electronic devices seized on April 27th,
3 2021, by the FBI from Mr. Giuliani's person, residence, and
4 office.
5 But what you haven't provided is specifically what
6 those devices were, which would be clear from the search
7 warrant returned -- and I am sure Mr. Costello has that --
8 and, you know, whether everything in the Trustpoint dataset
9 was actually all user -- all user created generated data on
10 any of those devices without any exclusion, meaning they
11 took a forensic image of the electronic devices, they took
12 that entire dataset. They dumped it in Trustpoint, which is
13 why you got so many operating files, which is what it sounds
14 like to me. But you haven't really confirmed that in order
15 to also confirm for the emails what emails stored on those
16 electronic devices actually derive from which accounts.
17 MR. SIBLEY: As much as I was able to confirm what
18 the data was as far as where it came from, Mr. Costello
19 confirmed for me -- and there was actually some
20 correspondence with the Department of Justice -- that this
21 was a capture of everything that was on those devices that
22 they could get which, as Your Honor mentioned -- that's why
23 there were the background files, and things like that.
24 I was not -- I did not understand -- and I
25 apologize if the Court wanted me to list specifically the

1 devices that were part of that. I think I have sent a list
2 of those to plaintiffs previously, at least some of those
3 devices.
4 We certainly can provide a list -- I think we do
5 have a list we can provide that indicates the serial
6 numbers, I believe, of the devices.
7 THE COURT: Whether they were MacBooks, iPhones,
8 laptops, et cetera.
9 MR. SIBLEY: Sure. I think --
10 THE COURT: All right. Well, I think it would be
11 good to know.
12 The Plaintiffs' counsel even said right here: We
13 don't know what other devices may have been used prior to
14 the seizure that may not have been seized. And I think that
15 certification has to make clear -- I think the FBI is
16 usually pretty thorough. I think they probably took every
17 single one of Mr. Giuliani's devices that he ever touched
18 that they were -- that they could find.
19 Is that right, Mr. Giuliani?
20 THE DEFENDANT: Would you like me to help with
21 that?
22 THE COURT: Sure. That's why you're here,
23 Mr. Giuliani.
24 THE DEFENDANT: The FBI took --
25 THE COURT: Mr. Giuliani, could you turn your mic

1 on?
2 THE DEFENDANT: I'm sorry. I don't mean to
3 interrupt. I just want to help.
4 THE COURT: And, Mr. Giuliani, your helper wants
5 to give you some water, which you are welcome to have.
6 THE DEFENDANT: I don't mean to interrupt. I just
7 want to see if I can shorten it and help you.
8 The FBI took every electronic device in my
9 apartment and in my law office. I am not sure there were
10 any in my law office at that time. If there were, they were
11 probably small ones and not relevant and didn't produce very
12 much. The main ones were in my house because it was
13 pandemic, and I was working out of my home.
14 They also took -- and, therefore, it is a little
15 confusing. Some of those devices are not mine. They took
16 every device.
17 So they took a colleague's device. They took my
18 ex-wife's computer, right, which has nothing to do with
19 this, which actually she hadn't used in four years. So it
20 was exhaustive.
21 Plus, the FBI had been monitoring my iCloud since
22 approximately -- I may have the dates slightly off so don't
23 hold me to it exactly, but it would have been -- it would
24 have been April of 2008 -- no. Wrong.
25 It would have been 20- -- sometime in 2017. Late

1 2017 until around the time they searched my apartment. They
2 got an order to monitor -- to take my iCloud records and
3 then to monitor it consistently thereafter.
4 So they really had already almost all of the
5 information that was on the devices because as I said, I
6 think in the deposition, 90 to 95 percent of my
7 communication is done on Apple, and it's backed up by the
8 iCloud.
9 So when they took -- and most of the devices they
10 took, if not all, were Apple devices that related to me.
11 So when they took all my devices, they were really
12 checking, is there anything else they could pick up that
13 they had not picked up from the iCloud. So it's pretty --
14 nothing is ever 100 percent exhaustive. But having done
15 this work at one time in my life, this was about as
16 exhaustive as you would get. That was -- that, as far as I
17 know, was all transferred to Trustpoint.
18 The FBI has its own copy that is preserved.
19 Exactly if we could get access to that, I don't know, but it
20 is preserved by the FBI. And Trustpoint has assured us that
21 they are going to preserve it in hopes that we can work
22 things out.
23 And there might be a way -- if we could talk
24 informally, there might be a way to -- if we tailored the
25 request to Trustpoint and wasn't: We want to see everything

1 you have. If we were to tailor a request with them that was
2 logical and made sense, we might be able to pay them a
3 limited amount. I am not saying we could, but it would
4 suggest to me it would be practical because they make some
5 money on this.
6 THE COURT: Well, I have two questions for you,
7 Mr. Giuliani.
8 THE DEFENDANT: We could pay them a limited amount
9 for a search of specific things, but not -- I don't mean to
10 be critical, but they made gigantic requests, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Okay. I am going to interrupt you for
12 a second, Mr. Giuliani.
13 I am going to ask your client one question because
14 he may know the answer to this more than you, Mr. Sibley.
15 MR. SIBLEY: Yes, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: You say that the FBI was monitoring
17 your iCloud account. Was the result of that monitoring by
18 the FBI also uploaded to the Trustpoint account or do you
19 not know that?
20 THE DEFENDANT: I think I know the answer to that,
21 but I am not sure and I would have to check with my counsel,
22 Bob Costello.
23 The answer is I think it was, but I am not -- but
24 don't hold me to it. It may not have been.
25 THE COURT: Okay. Now back to you, Mr. Sibley.

1 Thank you, Mr. Giuliani, for those clarifications.
2 What -- the response that Mr. Giuliani just gave
3 me demonstrates that just giving me the file types of
4 information held in the Trustpoint dataset is insufficient.
5 You need to find out what the data sources are of that data,
6 if it includes the entire iCloud account that was being
7 monitored, according to Mr. Giuliani, by the FBI. I think
8 that would give some assurance to the plaintiffs that might
9 be more complete in that that iCloud account, at a minimum,
10 is preserved.
11 So I think you -- it's incumbent upon you to find
12 out from Mr. Costello, or from Trustpoint itself, what the
13 data sources are by machine identification, type of machine,
14 serial number -- to make sure we all know what we're talking
15 about -- and any other data sources that went into that
16 dataset. That is number one.
17 I think Mr. Giuliani raises a very good point,
18 which is that the agreed-upon date range for the Trustpoint
19 dataset, as I understand it, was September 1, 2020, through
20 January 21, 2022.
21 So that if -- rather than the possibly terabytes
22 of data that are in the Trustpoint dataset, which might be a
23 lot to put into an active discovery platform for searching,
24 can be more targeted and only user-generated data from that
25 date range can be unarchived for searching that might make

1 it cheaper than $320,000, which is the amount I understand
2 that Trustpoint is asking to -- asking for to upload all of
3 their dataset.
4 So I think that is something that you can also --
5 it would be helpful for you to pursue.
6 MR. SIBLEY: I just sent the list of devices while
7 you had the exchange with Mr. Giuliani, so that's been
8 provided to plaintiffs, Your Honor.
9 The iCloud question -- my understanding was that
10 they did have everything in Trustpoint, but it seems like
11 there may be some -- we need to -- I understand, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: You need to find out the specific data
13 sources.
14 All right. I just want to do the same thing that
15 I did with the plaintiffs, which is go through the proposed
16 order to find out what precisely are all of the objections
17 and make sure I am understanding the objections to the terms
18 of the proposed order which, as I said, is described by
19 plaintiffs as narrow. And I think, in some ways, the
20 plaintiffs' description as it being a narrow relief order is
21 accurate.
22 The proposed order asks that I direct Mr. Giuliani
23 to collect, search, and produce all materials responsive to
24 all of plaintiffs' requests for production in all locations,
25 whether in Trustpoint or not, including a privilege log

Excerpted
1 like that before these Georgia hearings because, after
2 looking at it, this was not in anticipation of litigation
3 but in anticipation of presenting at a hearing which would
4 not be privileged. So we withdrew privilege assertions on
5 that basis.
6 THE COURT: Okay. That's reassuring.
7 Okay. So putting aside -- let's go back to the
8 proposed order.
9 With respect to the first paragraph, I think you
10 are going to need to do a clear unified privilege log for
11 each particular production or data source that -- Trustpoint
12 being one data source for things for which you claim
13 privilege so that we all understand what's being privileged
14 here but -- what there is an assertion of privilege over.
15 But is there anything other than cost that is
16 particularly objectionable in the first paragraph of that
17 proposed order?
18 MR. SIBLEY: Not with respect to searching those
19 repositories.
20 THE COURT: Right.
21 MR. SIBLEY: I mean, I suppose we can make an --
22 the problem is that there are so many different litigations
23 that if this were the only case maybe we could say it's
24 overly broad, but we have already had to collect the
25 documents for so many cases that it's really a search term

1 thing.
2 I do have a question, though, Your Honor, about
3 the privilege log. Is the Court going to require us to log
4 privileged communications between myself and Mr. Giuliani?
5 Normally, you only have to log privileged communications
6 that were not created as a result of the instant litigation.
7 So I am a little -- I just want to clarify.
8 THE COURT: Well, I didn't think that that
9 question would come up here because I had understood the
10 time frame to end January 21, 2022, which was months before
11 this litigation began and you started representing
12 Mr. Giuliani in this case.
13 I think that that is something you can consult
14 with plaintiffs about because that shouldn't be an issue if
15 that is the time frame that they have clarified today is
16 only applied to the Trustpoint documents and not the other
17 documents.
18 I am going to leave -- I don't want to get
19 involved in the parties' discussion about what the
20 applicable time frame is. I just don't know enough about
21 the case to be able to do that. You-all are the ones
22 sitting through all of the discovery, not me.
23 MR. SIBLEY: I understand, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: So I am actually not going to answer
25 that question, essentially make a ruling, when I just -- I

1 really think that you -- the parties need to talk about
2 that. And if it does need my intervention, I want it teed
3 up appropriately with the arguments on all sides and facts
4 so I know what I am ruling on.
5 Okay. So then let's go to the next paragraph of
6 the proposed order which asked that Mr. Giuliani file a
7 declaration subject to penalty of perjury that details to
8 the Court efforts taken to preserve, collect, and search
9 potentially responsive data and locations that may contain
10 responsive materials, complete lists of all such locations
11 and data that Mr. Giuliani used to communicate about any
12 materials responsive to any of plaintiffs' RFPs. The
13 specific data located in the Trustpoint database which we
14 have already discussed, and, clearly, there is a need for
15 that; and what searches, if any, have occurred of both the
16 locations and data that Mr. Giuliani used to communicate
17 about any materials responsive to the plaintiffs' RFPs and
18 the specific data on the Trustpoint database.
19 What is objectionable about that requested relief?
20 MR. SIBLEY: Well, I don't know that it's
21 objectionable, Your Honor, but I do want to be clear about
22 something.
23 Mr. Giuliani has stated -- I can't remember if
24 it's interrogatories or requests for admissions, but he has
25 not deleted any documents. So all of the documents --

1 THE COURT: But not deleting documents is not the
2 same as preserving the information in a manner that can be
3 retrieved and searched.
4 MR. SIBLEY: I understand that, Your Honor.
5 Normally, that situation arises where you have, like, an
6 auto-delete, sort of, policy at a company, or something like
7 that.
8 THE COURT: Exactly.
9 MR. SIBLEY: And I think what he is saying is
10 that's not the case with me, nothing gets deleted as a
11 matter of course. I believe he has said that. But I don't
12 think --
13 THE COURT: What if the phone he is using dies or
14 is inoperable?
15 He has said that all of the machines he used prior
16 to April 2021 are inoperable, can't be accessed. That can
17 happen with any machine. So that's why you preserve that
18 data in a manner that doesn't make it disappear.
20 But --
21 THE DEFENDANT: It's on the cloud.
22 MR. SIBLEY: -- I think what he has said that all
23 of that data --
24 THE COURT: I can only speak to one person at a
25 time, Mr. Giuliani. You are well familiar with --

1 THE DEFENDANT: I know, Your Honor. It's
2 frustrating.
3 THE COURT: -- with the plight of court reporters
4 who can only take down one person speaking at a time.
5 THE DEFENDANT: I'm sorry. I apologize, Your
6 Honor. I apologize.
7 THE COURT: So, Mr. Sibley, do you want to talk to
8 your client because he's anxious to say something, or do you
9 want me just to have him say what he wishes to say?
10 MR. SIBLEY: I will let him speak, Your Honor.
11 But the data was taken by the DOJ. He lost the
12 ability to do any preservation as of April 2021. This case
13 wasn't filed until January or, I think, maybe, December
14 2021. I can't remember.
15 Whatever that data was, I mean, I think what he
16 was saying in deposition is, look, it was preserved because
17 it was taken by the government. And it's there. I think
18 that was what he meant to say, but I will let him speak.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Giuliani, is that what you wanted
20 to say?
21 THE DEFENDANT: That and -- Your Honor, that's
22 correct. The data -- I had not deleted or changed or
23 done -- first of all, I have about 20 preservation orders,
24 much of which overlaps with theirs -- not completely, but
25 almost completely. So I started, you know, preserving from

1 way before their case. And then the FBI took everything, so
2 they preserved it.
3 And then I back up everything on iCloud regularly
4 so it's preserved that way as well. And at least I have
5 done nothing knowingly -- understand, I have been doing this
6 for 50 years; I understand the obligations.
7 There is nothing I would like to hide. I would
8 like you to see everything. It's just the enormity of their
9 request, in my experience, is way beyond what is necessary
10 in this case. That may also be true because I am
11 inundated -- they have 1 case, I have 20. And some of the
12 other requests are even bigger than theirs. If there is
13 anything missing here, it's inadvertent. It is not for want
14 of trying to preserve everything.
15 THE COURT: All right. Well, having detail about
16 that in a certification --
17 THE DEFENDANT: But I am happy to write out
18 something, if it helps --
19 THE COURT: Excellent.
20 THE DEFENDANT: If it helps for me to make it in a
21 more detailed statement of what I just said or answer their
22 questions -- however they want it, I will do the best I can
23 to assure them that I have done everything I can to preserve
24 it.
25 Do I understand everything with this technology?

1 Of course not; I don't. A lot of it is confusing to me, but
2 I have preserved everything.
3 THE COURT: All right. So I don't see anything
4 particularly objectionable about that provision.
5 The part of the proposed order dealing with
6 Interrogatories 11 and 12 is moot.
7 And then the next part of the order asking that
8 Mr. Giuliani be precluded from relying on any evidence not
9 provided in his initial disclosures or interrogatory
10 responses -- which I would never order because I think
11 people have a right to supplement and amend.
12 But with -- is there any reason why Mr. Giuliani
13 should not be precluded from relying on any evidence not
14 provided in his initial or supplemented written disclosures
15 or interrogatory responses?
16 MR. SIBLEY: I just think that's unripe, Your
17 Honor, because we have more discovery that needs to be
18 taken. At the appropriate time, if that attempt is made,
19 then the Court will weigh all of the factors that the Court
20 weighs at that point and you will make that call then.
21 I just think it's premature.
22 THE COURT: So you think it's premature as well?
23 MR. SIBLEY: Yes.
24 THE COURT: All right. And then the provision
25 that Mr. Giuliani paid plaintiffs' attorneys fees for the

1 cost of the motion to compel subject to any future filing
2 detailing the same.
3 You understand that -- when the plaintiffs make a
4 motion to compel for failure to fully comply with discovery
5 obligations the Friday before the Monday close of fact
6 discovery and I have a whole dataset, clearly, that hasn't
7 been thoroughly searched no matter what the excuses are --
8 the motion to compel seems almost inevitable.
9 But would you agree that the rule, essentially,
10 requires payment of attorney's fees for filing? I mean,
11 Rule 37(a)(5)(A) appears fairly mandatory.
12 MR. SIBLEY: Well, Your Honor, I think if there is
13 good cause and justification; for example, for the payment
14 of -- if it's not -- I don't know that we -- we didn't
15 really oppose the motion to compel to search that data. We
16 just couldn't do it.
17 The thing about the preservation of documents, I
18 mean, that's not -- there was no discovery request that was
19 made on that that we didn't answer. That's just something
20 they wanted in response to the motion to compel. So, I
21 mean, that's not really -- I don't think that's really
22 appropriate.
23 I am not sure what else -- I mean, I suppose we
24 could have went back and done some things differently, paid
25 Trustpoint's bills to where this didn't happen, but I don't

Excerpted
1 have done many of these in many of these cases. And I don't
2 remember this one exactly, but I can tell you my practice.
3 I took the keyword and I put it into the -- we're
4 talking about social media. I put it into the -- I put it
5 into the social media, and I searched for it. In this case
6 I came up with a few, not many.
7 In other cases -- meaning other cases -- I have
8 come up with a lot.
9 THE COURT: And you used the key word as
10 specifically provided by the plaintiffs?
11 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, Your Honor. Exactly. And
12 sometimes I ran it a few different ways if I came up with
13 nothing because I knew there would be suspicion if I came up
14 with nothing. I ran it two or three different ways.
15 The simple fact is there wasn't as much about this
16 case in the social media as there were some others. Some
17 others had been very fruitful.
18 I also went back to rhelen, and all of those other
19 emails, some of which were actually never used. They
20 existed but they had, maybe, five uses or six uses, and most
21 of them didn't fit into this time period. I am not even
22 sure any of them -- it may be rhelen had a few.
23 But most of the other ones were prior emails that
24 were long gone before we get to September of 2020. But I
25 went back and checked them to make sure that that was the --
1 at least every one that I had. So don't -- don't -- please
2 don't assume that I didn't do it when I did do it.
3 THE COURT: And what about WhatsApp, Telegram, and
4 Signal messaging applications?
5 THE DEFENDANT: Well, I checked both of those. In
6 fact, I rechecked them today because Joe asked me about
7 that --
8 THE COURT: It's not "both." It's three;
9 WhatsApp, Telegram, and Signal.
10 THE DEFENDANT: Okay. Telegram I checked. I have
11 some communications on Telegram. I don't know that there
12 were any of theirs. But I don't have many communications on
13 Telegram. Very few on Signal.
14 I checked WhatsApp fully. And during this period
15 there were very few communications on WhatsApp; none of
16 them, I don't believe, related to this case. Those three
17 are not three that I use myself.
18 Other people call me on those. It's not -- I
19 don't know if I am expressing myself correctly. I don't use
20 those to initiate calls. I have them because people that
21 communicate with me use them.
22 So, yes, I did check them. I am not sure there
23 was anything about them in this time period about their
24 case. But I checked them, yes, Your Honor. And I rechecked
25 them.
1 THE COURT: All right. And have you preserved any
2 of the data that's on those applications in Mr. Giuliani's
3 accounts for any of those messaging applications and email
4 accounts so that you could double-check and verify that it's
5 thorough, complete, and the keyword searches have been
6 appropriately done?
7 MR. SIBLEY: Well, I have not preserved it, Your
8 Honor, but I believe he has said that he has, so --
9 THE COURT: Well, he just says he doesn't delete
10 stuff from there. Is that the same as preservation in your
11 view?
12 MR. SIBLEY: If there is a potential for deletion
13 to occur by sort of natural -- the way it's set up, I
14 suppose you would need to go in and change that to where it
15 didn't auto delete. But I don't believe that anything -- he
16 said he doesn't delete things; he doesn't have it set up
17 that way.
18 I can certainly go in and look at what he has
19 looked at. We have found -- I mean, there are
20 communications that are there from the time frame. I don't
21 think there's been an auto deletion that occurred where
22 everything was wiped out at that time frame. He certainly
23 hasn't done that.
24 THE COURT: All right. Well, among the missing
25 documents are two text messages between Mr. Giuliani and

1 Christina Bobb on December 4 and December 5, 2020, and those
2 were not produced by Mr. Giuliani. So this does raise some
3 question -- both about the correctness of Mr. Giuliani's
4 recollection, which he didn't believe he had ever used text
5 messages with respect to the matters at issue in this case;
6 and it does raise questions about the thoroughness of
7 searches of text messages and the manner in which this is
8 being done without notes being kept, without clarity on how
9 the manual searches were being done.
10 You can appreciate why the plaintiffs are somewhat
11 concerned about all of the responsive records even from
12 texts being properly identified, collected, and produced.
13 Let me turn to the phone records.
14 I think your view is: If he doesn't have his
15 phone bill sitting around his apartment within his
16 possession, he doesn't have possession or control of his
17 phone records, and it's just fine for him to tell the
18 plaintiffs to go to AT&T directly.
19 Is that, basically, Mr. Giuliani's position?
20 MR. SIBLEY: Well, initially, I believe he had the
21 phone records but he didn't have copies of the phone
22 records, that's why we didn't object to it. We said sure,
23 we'll produce it. He didn't have them. And I am not sure
24 that he --
25 THE COURT: What do you mean he had them and then

1 he didn't have them?
2 MR. SIBLEY: He never had them.
3 I thought that he had the records, which is why we
4 said sure, we'll produce the documents. I wasn't going to
5 object to it, it's not objectionable.
6 But it turned out he didn't have the phone
7 records. I mean, most of us don't keep our phone records.
8 And I looked into -- I don't keep my phone records, but it's
9 all online.
10 THE COURT: Exactly. It's all online.
11 So why can't he go to his AT&T account and
12 download all of the phone records that he needs in order to
13 produce to the plaintiffs?
14 And doesn't it look a little bit like a backhanded
15 way of dealing with the discovery request simply to say:
16 You go get it yourself?
17 MR. SIBLEY: If I can explain, Your Honor.
18 I don't believe that the records they're wanting,
19 that have calls and things like that -- I am not sure he can
20 get those from his online account. It might be -- you know,
21 he has the bill for the number, he pays the amount.
22 But what they're wanting is detailed logs of when
23 text messages were sent, not the substance, things like
24 that. I am not sure he can get access to that, which is why
25 he says --
Excerpted
1 inaccessible data was defined.
2 Judge Scheindlin had identified five categories of
3 data: One, active online data; two, near line data; three,
4 offline storage, archives; four, backup tapes; five, erased,
5 fragmented or damaged data; and then went on to hold that
6 only the first -- only the latter two categories were
7 inaccessible.
8 The first three categories that I quote are
9 typically identified as accessible for which the responding
10 party has the duty to collect, search, preserve, and
11 produce.
12 So how would -- you cited Zubulake for the
13 inaccessible data point. So how, in your reading of
14 Zubulake, would the archived Trustpoint data even become
15 inaccessible?
16 MR. SIBLEY: I think it would be more along the
17 lines of a backup tape, right? Because this is not --
18 THE COURT: I think it's offline storage,
19 archives; that's Category No. 3, not "inaccessible," because
20 it doesn't really require any forensic expertise to get
21 access to it.
22 MR. SIBLEY: Well, these are not our -- it's not
23 like he has the archives in his files -- though, right? --
24 Your Honor?
25 This is a third-party vendor that we can only get

1 access to files from -- I mean, it does require -- I mean,
2 there were expert requirements involved in this because they
3 had to extract the data, they have to host the data. I am
4 not sure that that would be apposite to our situation.
5 I can understand a situation where a company has
6 archived data and they have free access to it; we don't.
7 THE COURT: Well, in my reading of the Zubulake
8 cases on which you relied, it's not my view that this data
9 at Trustpoint is inaccessible that would warrant a cost
10 shifting here. I hope you are promptly able to work out the
11 situation with Trustpoint.
12 If there is nothing further that you would like to
13 say, I am going to give the plaintiffs an opportunity for
14 reply.
15 MR. SIBLEY: Thank you, Your Honor.
16 MS. GOVERNSKI: Thank you, Your Honor.
17 I have a few points to raise, but first I should
18 ask if there is anything in particular that you would like
19 to ask or if you'd like me to just go through my list very
20 quickly.
21 THE COURT: Just go through your list.
22 MS. GOVERNSKI: Okay. First of all, there's been
23 a lot of talk today about devices and Trustpoint. But we
24 have learned something new, which is all of this is on the
25 cloud.
1 Defendant Giuliani has said he -- 95 to 99 percent
2 of his communications are on the cloud. So he, today, via
3 counsel or personally, has not explained why he cannot
4 download what is on the cloud or have a professional vendor
5 download what is on the cloud and conduct a search the way
6 the majority of discovery is run in cases.
7 So I think there is a lot of focus and diversions
8 to Trustpoint and to devices when the cloud is there and
9 should be a very, really, low-cost way to do this -- I
10 suspect -- perhaps a vendor time to download. But we would
11 be happy to have our vendor let us know what the cost would
12 be to log into his Gmail, to log into his various email
13 accounts, and to perform a takeout, which we do in our
14 litigation quite frequently.
15 THE COURT: I am going to interrupt you for just
16 one second.
17 MS. GOVERNSKI: Sure.
18 THE COURT: Mr. Sibley, you hear the offer to
19 actually preserve the data on the cloud in the normal
20 typical manner offered by plaintiffs to do that for you.
21 Would you be willing to have their vendor do that for you?
22 MR. SIBLEY: Your Honor, the answer is yes,
23 provided that there is no privilege waiver if the vendor
24 accesses privileged data. But I believe that there are
25 problems with him accessing the cloud; I believe he's

1 testified to that.
2 So I don't think that it's the case that the cloud
3 has everything that they're looking for on it. I am not
4 sure where that came from, but he has had problems accessing
5 the cloud with respect to the data that was in the time
6 frame that the FBI did the seizure, which would be the
7 relevant time frame for this case.
8 But to answer the Court's question, the answer is
9 no. There is no objection to assistance with preservation
10 to the extent they think that is something that needs to
11 occur, although I am not sure how much of that can be
12 accessed.
13 THE DEFENDANT: Can I add to it, Your Honor, to
14 supplement what Mr. Sibley said?
15 THE COURT: Mr. Giuliani, you are irrepressible.
16 Proceed.
17 THE DEFENDANT: Your Honor, when I do the search,
18 I attempt to also check it out against the cloud. I mean, I
19 download. I make sure everything is downloaded.
20 And here is the problem with the cloud. When we
21 go back to the period of time -- material that was seized by
22 the FBI, that I don't have access to on the cloud. They
23 have it, but I don't have access to it. I can't get that
24 from my devices. The FBI has that.
25 THE COURT: So it's not a matter of you having --

1 it's not a matter of you not being able to access your
2 different email accounts because, for example, you have lost
3 your password. But once you do access the accounts you are
4 not seeing data there; is that what you are saying?
5 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, for certain periods of time.
6 Currently? Fine. I can go back for the last year
7 and a half, and I can get everything on the cloud. It's all
8 there.
9 But if I go back to a certain period of time, I
10 would have to go look at exactly where it is. It is frozen.
11 I can't get it through our -- the stuff that's on
12 rhelen0528 -- I shouldn't give my whole one, I guess -- I
13 can't get. The FBI still has that. I can't figure out --
14 they give us no reason why they don't release it.
15 They gave me a letter saying the case is over.
16 They gave me a letter saying there was no indication of
17 crime, but I can't get access to that.
18 Did they destroy it? I don't know.
19 THE COURT: Well, I don't think the FBI is in the
20 business of preserving data for subjects of an
21 investigation and then, as a favor, turn it over --
22 THE DEFENDANT: We can agree to disagree.
23 THE COURT: -- I just don't think they're in that
24 business. It doesn't surprise me, Mr. Giuliani.
25 You of all people should know that that's not --

1 it's not unusual that they would not --
2 THE DEFENDANT: No, it's not usual --
3 THE COURT: -- cede to your request?
4 THE DEFENDANT: -- but they do -- it's also not
5 impossible for them -- they also do do it. It's a question
6 of how compelling the request is.
7 And, finally, I really don't know what they did
8 with it. I don't know exactly what they did with it.
9 THE COURT: All right. But I think -- I wanted to
10 interrupt you because I think that you have an agreement
11 from the defendant that he would agree to have your vendor
12 preserve this information, and then you can proceed from
13 there in terms of working out a protocol for searching that
14 would protect privileged information.
15 MS. GOVERNSKI: Yes.
16 THE COURT: I am not going to get any more
17 involved in that discussion than what I just said.
18 MS. GOVERNSKI: But Your Honor -- let's focus on
19 this rhhelen [sic] account, okay?
20 He is now saying he -- he doesn't know if it's in
21 Trustpoint -- right? -- I think we have established that.
22 We don't know if the cloud that they took was in Trustpoint.
23 We also don't know if the cloud includes, for instance, the
24 rhhelen. And yet now he's also saying, when he accesses it,
25 these records are not there. So we don't know if they have

1 been preserved from what he has been saying, and it sounds
2 like he doesn't know if they have been preserved. And so it
3 seems like all we're getting here is his post-2021 devices
4 which -- and whatever is in the cloud from post 2021.
5 Now, there may be some responsive materials in
6 there, but this doesn't solve the larger problem which is
7 all of these communications in Signal, WhatsApp, Telegram,
8 his various Gmail accounts -- we don't know if they have
9 been preserved. We don't know if they're in Trustpoint, and
10 he doesn't have access to them.
11 While we would be happy to get a cost estimate
12 from our vendor and have our vendor log into his accounts
13 and download them the proper way -- if they're not there,
14 then we're not downloading much of anything. So I think
15 some of the -- the Court is seeing firsthand some of our
16 challenges with trying to get clear answers. It's as clear
17 as mud.
18 If the Court would include in the order that he
19 should give us his login access and information for his
20 various email accounts for Telegram, for ProtonMail -- would
21 pass over the devices to us -- we would be happy to get an
22 estimate on that, and then work with him.
23 Of course, our position is he should have to bear
24 the cost. But we would be happy to meet and confer and come
25 to Your Honor if we can't reach resolution on that. We

1 think that we have more questions than answers after today.
2 It would be helpful to know, though -- we did
3 receive an inventory of the devices from Mr. Sibley, but we
4 don't know what those devices are in terms of: Are they the
5 2000 -- the device of his wife from 2000 or is it the iPhone
6 he was actually using. So it would be helpful if we could
7 understand exactly which devices are the ones that would
8 have materials from this time period so then we can go to
9 our vendor and provide a more tailored estimate. But I
10 would note our current estimate to -- I believe, to
11 forensically image six to eight devices was less than
12 $10,000.
13 Very quickly -- because the Court has been more
14 than patient today -- the search terms that we provided are
15 actually filed on the docket, Docket No. 36-1. I actually
16 was over -- I overstated the number. There were 33 Boolean
17 search terms that covers the first and second sets.
18 I should note that -- I would direct the Court to
19 the first exhibit of our motion to compel which lists the
20 responses and objections. And Defendant Giuliani barely
21 objected to any of our RFPs, including on overbreadth. So
22 the claims here about how we're asking for the universe and
23 looking for a fishing expedition is belied by his own
24 responses and objections and actual terms at Docket 36-1.
25 Three more very quick clarifications.

1 The time period, Your Honor, that we agreed to, to
2 April 2021 -- for purposes of Trustpoint, we think it
3 should -- I'm sorry, for January 2002 [sic], we think it
4 actually should go through present for post Trustpoint; and
5 here is why. We know, for instance, Christina Bobb recently
6 published a book that Defendant Giuliani provided a blurb
7 for and that that book specifically talks about the State
8 Farm arena fraud. We think it's artificially limiting
9 potentially responsive materials if we cut it off in January
10 2022. We have reason to believe there was continued ongoing
11 conversations.
12 I know Your Honor did not want to engage in this
13 specific time period; we can talk about it with them. But I
14 just wanted to circle back pursuant to your question.
15 Also, Mr. Sibley referenced not needing to do a
16 log of communications with counsel. We would agree for
17 communications between Mr. Giuliani and Mr. Sibley. But,
18 for instance, we just received a privilege document from
19 Ms. Bobb where she is on a communication that Mr. Sibley is
20 on. She is saying she can't produce it because Mr. Sibley
21 has said that that communication is privileged; that hasn't
22 been logged on any privilege log we have.
23 And so it seems like there are communications that
24 Mr. Sibley is on but that other third parties are on too,
25 and we would think that those should be logged because we

Excerpted
1 today?
2 MS. GOVERNSKI: Just one very -- I am very sorry
3 to keep us here.
4 The current schedule has expert discovery ending,
5 I believe, on June 16th. I think given where we are we
6 would confer with defendant and probably file a motion to
7 extend that out.
8 THE COURT: I am here every day.
9 MS. GOVERNSKI: Thank you, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Anything further from the defense?
11 MR. SIBLEY: No, Your Honor. And we would not
12 oppose any reasonable request for an extension.
13 THE COURT: All right. You are all excused.
14 THE DEFENDANT: Thank you, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Giuliani.
16 (Whereupon, the proceeding concludes, 1:45 p.m.)

* * * * *
17 CERTIFICATE
18 I, ELIZABETH SAINT-LOTH, RPR, FCRR, do hereby

certify that the foregoing constitutes a true and accurate
19 transcript of my stenographic notes, and is a full, true,
and complete transcript of the proceedings to the best of my
20 ability.
21 This certificate shall be considered null and void

if the transcript is disassembled and/or photocopied in any
22 manner by any party without authorization of the signatory
below.
23
Dated this 24th day of May, 2023.
24
/s/ Elizabeth Saint-Loth, RPR, FCRR
25 Official Court Reporter
EXHIBIT 3
Control Number File Name File Extension Master Date Email From Email To Email CC Subject Custodian Author
19178428280@s.whatsapp.net +1 (917) 842-

1B05A_00200596 Chats_5678 txt 11/8/2020 12:39 8280 Giuliani
1B05A_00200606 Chats_7104 txt 11/9/2020 14:24 '+18162257020 Karladine Giuliani
13472284154@s.whatsapp.net +1 (347) 228-
1B05A_00200728 Chats_5118 txt 11/15/2020 6:27 13475988001@s.whatsapp.net Giuliani
1B05A_00200836 Chats_8897 txt 11/16/2020 0:22 14843409944@s.whatsapp.net Curt Weldon Giuliani

1B05A_00200911 Chats_5217 txt 11/17/2020 1:24 '+17034721501 Bart Giuliani
19167707533@s.whatsapp.net +1 (916) 770-
(owner) Unknown +13472371202 Bernie Kerik
+12023301661 Katherine Friess +19179513862
1B05A_00201615 Chats_4352 txt 12/6/2020 3:01 '+13037209374 Jenna Ellis Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
(owner) Unknown +13037209374 Jenna Ellis
1B05A_00201619 Chats_4354 txt 12/6/2020 4:26 '+13472371202 Bernie Kerik Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
(owner) Unknown +12024311950 Cleta Mitchell
1B05A_00201629 Chats_4348 txt 12/6/2020 16:45 '+14042855853 +14043583860 K Giuliani

+13037209374 Jenna Ellis +16199778100
Christina Bobb +12023301661 Katherine Friess
1B05A_00201661 Chats_4547 txt 12/6/2020 22:31 '+16095299982 Boris +12022567940 Jason Miller Giuliani

+13037209374 Jenna Ellis +16199778100
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+16199778100 Christina Bobb +12022567940
1B05A_00201715 Chats_4565 txt 12/7/2020 3:12 '+12023301661 Katherine Friess Jason Miller Giuliani
(owner) Unknown +14043583860 K
1B05A_00201754 Chats_4294 txt 12/7/2020 11:47 '+19122309349 William Ligon +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani

+13037209374 Jenna Ellis +16199778100
(owner) Unknown +16095299982 Boris
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1B05A_00201773 Chats_4574 txt 12/7/2020 17:57 '+13472371202 Bernie Kerik +12022567940 Jason Miller Giuliani
'+13472371202 Bernie Kerik +16095299982

Boris +13037209374 Jenna Ellis +16199778100
1B05A_00201774 Chats_4575 txt 12/7/2020 17:57 +12022567940 Jason Miller Giuliani
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1B05A_00201775 Chats_4576 txt 12/7/2020 18:00 '+13472371202 Bernie Kerik +12022567940 Jason Miller Giuliani
'+13472371202 Bernie Kerik +16095299982

1B05A_00201777 Chats_4577 txt 12/7/2020 18:22 +12022567940 Jason Miller Giuliani
+16095299982 Boris +16199778100 Christina
Bobb +12023301661 Katherine Friess
1B05A_00201794 Chats_4578 txt 12/7/2020 20:57 '+13037209374 Jenna Ellis +12022567940 Jason Miller Giuliani
+13037209374 Jenna Ellis +19179513862 Rudy
1B05A_00201802 Chats_4355 txt 12/7/2020 22:55 '+12023301661 Katherine Friess Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
(owner) Unknown +12022567940 Jason Miller

+19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner)
1B05A_00201808 Chats_4309 txt 12/8/2020 0:35 '+13037209374 Jenna Ellis +18042457477 CA +16095299982 Boris Giuliani
'+15172058221 +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani
1B05A_00201822 Chats_4203 txt 12/8/2020 3:07 (owner) Giuliani
'+12023020821 Ronna McDaniel +19179513862
1B05A_00201824 Chats_4178 txt 12/8/2020 3:21 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
1B05A_00201844 Chats_4120 txt 12/8/2020 14:41 '+16199778100 Christina Bobb Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
+13037209374 Jenna Ellis +19179513862 Rudy
(owner) Unknown +19173497370 Andrew
+13472371202 Bernie Kerik +13037209374
1B05A_00201931 Chats_3998 txt 12/9/2020 16:27 '+12023301661 Katherine Friess Jenna Ellis Giuliani
'+12023414783 Mike Farris +19179513862 Rudy
1B05A_00201953 Chats_4626 txt 12/9/2020 20:00 Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
'+12023414783 Mike Farris +19179513862 Rudy
+13037209374 Jenna Ellis +19179513862 Rudy
1B05A_00201994 Chats_3928 txt 12/10/2020 1:32 '+16032541415 Maria Ryan Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
'+19173497370 Andrew +13472371202 Bernie
Kerik +12124906000 +19179513862 Rudy
1B05A_00202080 Chats_4227 txt 12/11/2020 14:35 '+12023301661 Katherine Friess +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani

+16032541415 Maria Ryan +16095299982 Boris
+13037209374 Jenna Ellis +16199778100
1B05A_00202173 Chats_3748 txt 12/12/2020 21:42 '+12023301661 Katherine Friess Christina Bobb Giuliani
+16032541415 Maria Ryan +16095299982 Boris
+13037209374 Jenna Ellis +16199778100
'+13472371202 Bernie Kerik +16032541415

Maria Ryan +16095299982 Boris +13037209374
Jenna Ellis +16199778100 Christina Bobb
1B05A_00202194 Chats_3762 txt 12/13/2020 13:07 +12023301661 Katherine Friess Giuliani
+16032541415 Maria Ryan +16095299982 Boris
+13037209374 Jenna Ellis +16199778100
+16095299982 Boris +19179513862 Rudy
+16032541415 Maria Ryan +16095299982 Boris
+19493518785 Mirna Tarraf +13472371202
Bernie Kerik +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani
1B05A_00202219 Chats_3709 txt 12/13/2020 15:26 '+12023301661 Katherine Friess (owner) Giuliani
'+19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner)

+19493518785 Mirna Tarraf +13472371202
Bernie Kerik +13037209374 Jenna Ellis

1B05A_00202230 Chats_3725 txt 12/13/2020 17:59 '+19493518785 Mirna Tarraf +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani

+16032541415 Maria Ryan +16095299982 Boris
+13037209374 Jenna Ellis +16199778100
1B05A_00202270 Chats_3610 txt 12/14/2020 15:52 '+12022558863 Victoria Toensing +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani

+12022558863 Victoria Toensing +16032541415
Maria Ryan +16095299982 Boris +13037209374

Maria Ryan +16095299982 Boris +13037209374

Maria Ryan +16095299982 Boris +13037209374

Maria Ryan +16095299982 Boris +16199778100
1B05A_00202298 Chats_3638 txt 12/14/2020 16:02 '+13037209374 Jenna Ellis +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani

Maria Ryan +16095299982 Boris +16199778100

Maria Ryan +16095299982 Boris +16199778100
Maria Ryan +13037209374 Jenna Ellis
+16199778100 Christina Bobb +12023301661
Katherine Friess +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani
1B05A_00202323 Chats_3660 txt 12/14/2020 17:13 '+16095299982 Boris (owner) Giuliani

+16032541415 Maria Ryan +16095299982 Boris
+13037209374 Jenna Ellis +16199778100
1B05A_00202336 Chats_3663 txt 12/14/2020 19:42 '+12022558863 Victoria Toensing +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
+13472371202 Bernie Kerik +19179513862
1B05A_00202454 Chats_4160 txt 12/17/2020 0:03 '+12124906000 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
+13472371202 Bernie Kerik +19179513862
1B05A_00202554 Chats_3414 txt 12/18/2020 21:07 '+19284864220 Kelley Ward +16199778100 Christina Bobb Giuliani
+16032541415 Maria Ryan +19179513862 Rudy
(owner) Unknown +12023301661 Katherine

1B05A_00202756 Chats_4239 txt 12/23/2020 0:32 '+13472371202 Bernie Kerik Friess +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani

1B05A_00202764 Chats_4245 txt 12/23/2020 2:15 '+13472371202 Bernie Kerik Friess +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
'+12023301661 Katherine Friess +12102407114

Col Phil Waldron +13472371202 Bernie Kerik
1B05A_00202772 Chats_3287 txt 12/23/2020 2:57 +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani


'+12028412767 Victoria and Joe +19179513862
'+12028028234 Lara Logan +19179513862 Rudy
'+12028028234 Lara Logan +19179513862 Rudy
'+12028028234 Lara Logan +19179513862 Rudy
'+18282002544 Mark Meadows +19179513862
Friess +13472371202 Bernie Kerik
1B05A_00202781 Chats_3291 txt 12/23/2020 3:06 '+12102407114 Col Phil Waldron +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
'+18282002544 Mark Meadows +19179513862
'+12028412767 Victoria and Joe +19179513862
'+12028412767 Victoria and Joe +19179513862
(owner) Unknown +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani
1B05A_00202811 Chats_3352 txt 12/23/2020 12:57 '+14042179028 (owner) Giuliani
+12147071775 Sidney Powell +15714292777
1B05A_00202868 Chats_3142 txt 12/24/2020 7:23 '+17184270990 +19172979169 Michael Giuliani
(owner) +12147071775 Sidney Powell
1B05A_00202869 Chats_3136 txt 12/24/2020 7:24 '+17184270990 +15714292777 Giuliani
+12147071775 Sidney Powell +15714292777
1B05A_00202870 Chats_3143 txt 12/24/2020 7:24 '+17184270990 +19172979169 Michael Giuliani
(owner) +12147071775 Sidney Powell
1B05A_00202871 Chats_3137 txt 12/24/2020 7:24 '+17184270990 +15714292777 Giuliani
1B05A_00203095 Chats_2745 txt 12/27/2020 21:14 '+13037209374 Jenna Ellis (owner) Giuliani
~/Library/SMS/Attachments/39/09/at_0_7D12F
C2D-5D69-49E3-9CAD-
EC7EAC8DB24B/GIULIANI TEAM STRATEGIC '+18282002544 Mark Meadows +19179513862
1B05A_00203105 COMMUNICATIONS PLAN - v1.pdf pdf 12/27/2020 21:56 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani Katherine Friess
'+16199778100 Christina Bobb +19179513862
1B05A_00203135 Chats_2947 txt 12/28/2020 15:07 '+19179513862 Rudy Giuliani Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
'+16199778100 Christina Bobb +19179513862
(owner) Unknown +16032541415 Maria Ryan

+16199778100 Christina Bobb +19179513862
1B05A_00203151 Chats_2687 txt 12/28/2020 16:06 '+16095299982 Boris Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
~/Library/SMS/Attachments/db/11/at_0_C725
DE5D-6C81-4317-9F19- '+18282002544 Mark Meadows +19179513862
1B05A_00203211 B4F77182DAB2/AG_USMS_Order.docx docx 12/29/2020 15:41 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani Christina Bobb
1B05A_00203215 Chats_2807 txt 12/29/2020 16:33 '+13472371202 Bernie Kerik +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani

Maria Ryan +13037209374 Jenna Ellis

1B05A_00203217 Chats_2601 txt 12/29/2020 17:02 '+16032541415 Maria Ryan +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani

Maria Ryan +13472371202 Bernie Kerik
+16032541415 Maria Ryan +13472371202
+16032541415 Maria Ryan +13472371202
1B05A_00203307 Chats_2728 txt 12/30/2020 15:51 '+12023301661 Katherine Friess (owner) Giuliani
+16032541415 Maria Ryan +13472371202


1B05A_00203384 Chats_4384 txt 12/31/2020 0:47 '+13472371202 Bernie Kerik Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
+16199778100 Christina Bobb +19179513862
1B05A_00203399 Chats_2632 txt 12/31/2020 2:12 '+16095299982 Boris Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani

1B05A_00203476 Chats_3906 txt 12/31/2020 23:30 '+14803326290 Senator Townsend (owner) Giuliani
'+13472371202 Bernie Kerik +19179513862
'+18282002544 Mark Meadows +19179513862
+16032541415 Maria Ryan +19179513862 Rudy
+16032541415 Maria Ryan +19179513862 Rudy
'+18282002544 Mark Meadows +19179513862
1B05A_00203611 Chats_2834 txt 1/2/2021 13:50 '+13472371202 Bernie Kerik (owner) Giuliani
'+18282002544 Mark Meadows +19179513862
'+18282002544 Mark Meadows +19179513862
+13472371202 Bernie Kerik +19179513862
1B05A_00203739 Chats_2404 txt 1/5/2021 13:23 '+14046648621 (owner) Unknown +12124906000 Giuliani
+16032541415 Maria Ryan +19179513862 Rudy
'+17036009641 Marc Short +19179513862 Rudy
+16095299982 Boris +19179513862 Rudy
1B05A_00203780 Chats_2394 txt 1/6/2021 3:35 '+12022567940 Jason Miller Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
1B05A_00203791 Chats_4480 txt 1/6/2021 13:01 '+18282002544 Mark Meadows +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
'+18282002544 Mark Meadows +19179513862
'+18282002544 Mark Meadows +19179513862
+19172979169 Michael +19179513862 Rudy
1B05A_00204087 Chats_2221 txt 1/8/2021 19:55 '+15169870213 Bob Costello Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
'+18282002544 Mark Meadows +19179513862

+19172979169 Michael +19179513862 Rudy
+19172979169 Michael +19179513862 Rudy
'+18282002544 Mark Meadows +19179513862
'+18282002544 Mark Meadows +19179513862
1B05A_00204689 Chats_4028 txt 1/14/2021 21:36 '+12028412767 Victoria and Joe (owner) Giuliani
1B05A_00204742 Chats_2781 txt 1/15/2021 13:39 '+13037209374 Jenna Ellis (owner) Giuliani
'+12024943297 Jay Sekulow +19179513862
1B05A_00204860 Chats_2052 txt 1/18/2021 14:33 '+12024311950 Cleta Mitchell +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
(owner) Unknown +16199778100 Christina
1B05A_00204894 Chats_1967 txt 1/18/2021 21:48 '+12102407114 Col Phil Waldron Bobb +13472371202 Bernie Kerik Giuliani
1B05A_00205192 Chats_2971 txt 1/21/2021 2:33 '+16199778100 Christina Bobb (owner) Giuliani
+19172979169 Michael +19179513862 Rudy
+12102407114 Col Phil Waldron +19179513862
1B05A_00205287 Chats_1855 txt 1/22/2021 0:08 '+19175155200 Manuel Asensio-Garcia Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
+16032541415 Maria Ryan +19179513862 Rudy
1B05A_00205518 Chats_2054 txt 1/25/2021 16:59 '+12024311950 Cleta Mitchell Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
+19172979169 Michael +19179513862 Rudy
1B05A_00205853 Chats_3926 txt 1/29/2021 23:05 '+14803326290 Senator Townsend (owner) Giuliani
(owner) +16032541415 Maria Ryan
1B05A_00205903 Chats_1640 txt 1/31/2021 13:38 '+16034869208 Eric Ryan +16199778100 Christina Bobb Giuliani

+19172979169 Michael +19179513862 Rudy
+19172979169 Michael +19179513862 Rudy
+19172979169 Michael +19179513862 Rudy
+19172979169 Michael +19179513862 Rudy
1B05A_00206302 Chats_1792 txt 2/5/2021 19:42 '+16095299982 Boris +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com Rudolph Giuliani
1B05A_00206642 Chats_1350 txt 2/14/2021 15:50 '+15169870213 Bob Costello +19172979169 Michael Giuliani
1B05A_00206916 Chats_1395 txt 2/22/2021 20:51 '+15169870213 Bob Costello (owner) Giuliani
~/Library/SMS/Attachments/85/05/62B4AD40- '+19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner)
E2D3-4F4F-B681- rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com Rudolph Giuliani
A5C907E39DCB/GIULIANIFEEAGREEMENT(Coo +19172979169 Michael +19179513862 Rudy
1B05A_00207542 mer).docx docx 3/12/2021 15:55 '+17138980494 Joseph Sibley Giuliani (owner) Giuliani Joe Sibley
~/Library/SMS/Attachments/55/05/37CA223B- '+19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner)
344A-4881-AA14- rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com Rudolph Giuliani
A2D06C9B1E7F/GIULIANIFEEAGREEMENT(Swal +19172979169 Michael +19179513862 Rudy
1B05A_00207544 well).docx docx 3/12/2021 15:55 '+17138980494 Joseph Sibley Giuliani (owner) Giuliani Joe Sibley
1B05A_00207869 Chats_1292 txt 3/22/2021 0:08 '+17138980494 Joseph Sibley +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani

'+15169870213 Bob Costello +19179513862
'+15169870213 Bob Costello +19179513862
1B05A_00208105 Chats_611 txt 3/30/2021 14:54 '+15163025655 Adam Katz +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
+12102407114 Col Phil Waldron +16199778100
Christina Bobb +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani
1B05A_00208164 Chats_525 txt 4/1/2021 16:07 '+16032541415 Maria Ryan (owner) Giuliani
1B05A_00210210 MEMO Kerik and Giuliani re Ev targets.docx docx 11/8/2020 17:25 Giuliani Katherine Friess
1B05A_00210211 MEMO Kerik and Giuliani re Ev targets.pdf pdf 11/8/2020 17:48 Giuliani
1B05A_00210226 7B016B9E-1D50-4BF4-B967-DC991811713B.pdf pdf 11/20/2020 19:51 Giuliani
1B05A_00210228 4881D67E-B786-4724-AE8F-46BB554998C4.pdf pdf 11/20/2020 19:52 Giuliani
1B05A_00210230 EB4C340E-E8B6-4E5A-BD56-FDF87F18CCE7.pdf pdf 11/20/2020 19:54 Giuliani
1B05A_00210231 CE01B858-C6E6-4F9A-8F35-8C5A2A61AAD8.pdf pdf 11/24/2020 2:16 Giuliani
1B05A_00210232 109A7B83-C6C9-4F5E-B8AC-E1BF3DE67061.pdf pdf 11/24/2020 21:19 Giuliani
1B05A_00210233 5E909325-12E2-415E-BC7A-A85424BEE62C.pdf pdf 12/2/2020 6:51 Giuliani

1 -- How to cast Electoral votes in PA --
1B05A_00210235 edited.docx docx 12/12/2020 15:32 Giuliani Kenneth Chesebro
1B05A_00210236 Election Contest Complaint - Draft 3.1.docx docx 12/13/2020 19:17 Giuliani
1B05A_00210237 state_reporting_nov_15.pdf pdf 12/13/2020 23:15 Giuliani roder
TEAM COORDINATION AND STRATEGIC
1B05A_00210243 PLANNING CALL 12-4-20.docx docx 12/16/2020 1:44 Giuliani Katherine Friess
1B05A_00210244 AZ_Memo_Facts_Law.docx docx 12/16/2020 1:44 Giuliani Jack Wilenchik
December 17 2020 POTUS Findings FINAL with
1B05A_00210245 RG edits WCB Comm.docx docx 12/17/2020 16:29 Giuliani Microsoft Office User
1B05A_00210246 17A1C414-F101-459E-ADDF-9C708337BB41.pdf pdf 12/17/2020 16:29 Giuliani
1B05A_00210247 CA5993ED-6765-44C3-8DB2-2F34F4B55118.pdf pdf 12/17/2020 16:29 Giuliani
1B05A_00210248 44F9D35B-C1B8-4F66-83F4-9661162B3A91.pdf pdf 12/17/2020 16:31 Giuliani
1B05A_00210249 969C249D-FEAE-47C4-B7AC-39FFC17A3B3F.pdf pdf 12/17/2020 16:32 Giuliani

December 17, 2020 POTUS Findings FINAL with
1B05A_00210250 RG edits WCB Comm.docx docx 12/17/2020 16:36 Giuliani Microsoft Office User
1B05A_00210251 0F364CC4-4C94-491D-B834-FE995D59C5EE.pdf pdf 12/17/2020 16:36 Giuliani

December 17, 2020 POTUS Findings FINAL with
1B05A_00210252 RG edits WCB Comm 2.docx docx 12/17/2020 16:41 Giuliani Microsoft Office User
1B05A_00210253 770F08AD-A837-4EA3-BB71-910FABA4A1EF.pdf pdf 12/17/2020 16:42 Giuliani

1B05A_00210258 F6C278D7-D51C-40DA-88F1-D68FCFA4E74F.pdf pdf 1/6/2021 1:48 Giuliani

4-1-21 Russo Law Engagement Letter - Rudolph
1B05A_00210608 Giuliani.pdf pdf 4/4/2021 2:11 Giuliani
"Giuliani 3" <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com>,

1B05A_00211864 mes-1014.eml eml 2/27/2021 19:05 "Costello, Robert J." <rjc@dhclegal.com> "Joe Sibley" <sibley@camarasibley.com> "Rudolph Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> Re: Status Update Giuliani
"Rudy Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com>,
"RUDOLPH GIULIANI"
1B05A_00211873 mes-1005.eml eml 3/2/2021 12:16 "Costello, Robert J." <rjc@dhclegal.com> <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> Fwd: Rudolph Giuliani Giuliani
"RUDOLPH GIULIANI"
1B05A_00211919 mes-959.eml eml 3/20/2021 22:53 "Joe Sibley" <sibley@camarasibley.com> "Costello, Robert J." <rjc@dhclegal.com> <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> Re: Smartmatic Counsel Giuliani
"RUDOLPH GIULIANI"
1B05A_00211924 mes-956.eml eml 3/21/2021 20:17 "Joe Sibley" <sibley@camarasibley.com> <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> Re: COOMERMTNDISMISS(GiulianiDecl) Giuliani
"RUDOLPH GIULIANI"
1B05A_00211931 mes-949.eml eml 3/22/2021 12:03 "Costello, Robert J." <rjc@dhclegal.com> <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> Fwd: Giuliani | PEOPLE Magazine Giuliani
"Rudolph Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com>, Mich Voter Fraud Witness Melissa Carone tells
"RUDOLPH GIULIANI" "RUDOLPH GIULIANI" the Inside Story of Dominion Machines in
1B05A_00211942 mes-942.eml eml 3/22/2021 20:11 <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> Detroit - YouTube Giuliani
"Rudolph Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com>, Mich Voter Fraud Witness Melissa Carone tells
"RUDOLPH GIULIANI" "RUDOLPH GIULIANI" the Inside Story of Dominion Machines in
1B05A_00211944 mes-940.eml eml 3/23/2021 0:11 <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> Detroit - YouTube Giuliani
"Rudolph Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com>,
"Christina Bobb" "Maria Ryan"
1B05A_00211973 mes-911.eml eml 3/29/2021 18:44 <christina@cgbstrategies.com> <Maria.Ryan@giulianipartners.com> Trump Memo Giuliani
"Maria Ryan" "Christina Bobb"
1B05A_00211976 mes-908.eml eml 3/30/2021 18:01 <Maria.Ryan@giulianipartners.com> <christina@cgbstrategies.com> "Rudolph Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> Re: Trump Memo Giuliani
1B05A_00211977 mes-907.eml eml 3/30/2021 18:02 <christina@cgbstrategies.com> <Maria.Ryan@giulianipartners.com> "Rudolph Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> Re: Trump Memo Giuliani
"Christina Bobb"
1B05A_00211979 mes-905.eml eml 3/30/2021 20:28 <christina@cgbstrategies.com> "Rudy Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> Fwd: CONFIDENTIAL - Follow Up Memo Giuliani

"Zafonte, Jo Ann"
1B05A_00211991 mes-894.eml eml 3/31/2021 19:14 "Joe Sibley" <sibley@camarasibley.com> <JoAnn.Zafonte@giulianipartners.com> Fwd: Giuliani representation Giuliani
1B05A_00211993 mes-892.eml eml 4/1/2021 11:51 "Rudolph Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> "Joe Sibley" <sibley@camarasibley.com> Re: Giuliani representation Giuliani
1B05A_00211994 mes-891.eml eml 4/1/2021 11:52 "Joseph Sibley" <sibley@camarasibley.com> "Rudolph Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> Re: Giuliani representation Giuliani
"RUDOLPH GIULIANI" 4-1-21 Russo Law Engagement Letter - Rudolph
1B05A_00211997 mes-888.eml eml 4/1/2021 18:18 <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> "Rudolph Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> Giuliani.pdf Giuliani
1B05A_00212000 mes-885.eml eml 4/2/2021 1:29 <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> "Joseph Sibley" <Sibley@camarasibley.com> Giuliani-1 Giuliani
1B05A_00212001 mes-884.eml eml 4/2/2021 5:29 <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> "Joseph Sibley" <Sibley@camarasibley.com> Giuliani-1 Giuliani
"rhelen0528@gmail.com"
1B05A_00212019 mes-866.eml eml 4/5/2021 22:12 "Costello, Robert J." <rjc@dhclegal.com> <rhelen0528@gmail.com> FW: Few more Giuliani
"Rudy Giuliani" <Rhelen0528@gmail.com>,

1B05A_00212032 mes-853.eml eml 4/9/2021 16:23 BernardKerik <private@bernardkerik.com> "Jason Miller" <jmiller@shwpartners.com> "Maria Ryan" <marquessamaria@gmail.com> Re: Checking in on book Giuliani
1B05A_00212033 mes-852.eml eml 4/9/2021 16:27 "Rudolph Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> BernardKerik <private@bernardkerik.com> Re: Checking in on book Giuliani

1B05A_00212038 mes-847.eml eml 4/9/2021 18:14 "Jason Miller" <jmiller@shwpartners.com> BernardKerik <private@bernardkerik.com> "Maria Ryan" <marquessamaria@gmail.com> Re: Checking in on book Giuliani
"Maria Ryan" Rhelen0528 <rhelen0528@gmail.com>, Sibley
1B05A_00212059 mes-827.eml eml 4/10/2021 14:58 <Maria.Ryan@giulianipartners.com> <sibley@camarasibley.com> Ruby and daughter passing USB Giuliani
"Maria Ryan"
<Maria.Ryan@giulianipartners.com>,
"Christina Bobb" "sibley@camarasibley.com"
1B05A_00212072 mes-816.eml eml 4/10/2021 16:21 <christina@cgbstrategies.com> <sibley@camarasibley.com> Original Antrim County Report Giuliani
"Rudolph Giuliani" Russo Law Standard Evidence Preservation
1B05A_00212127 mes-767.eml eml 4/12/2021 15:02 "Louis Russo" <lrusso@russolaw-llc.com> <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> Letter Giuliani
"Zafonte, Jo Ann"
<JoAnn.Zafonte@giulianipartners.com>,
1B05A_00212186 mes-714.eml eml 4/13/2021 13:59 "Joe Sibley" <sibley@camarasibley.com> "Giuliani 3" <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> Fwd: Giuliani representation Giuliani
"Joe Sibley" <sibley@camarasibley.com>,

"Zafonte, Jo Ann" "Rudolph Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com>,
1B05A_00212188 mes-712.eml eml 4/13/2021 14:06 <JoAnn.Zafonte@giulianipartners.com> "Giuliani 3" <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> RE: Giuliani representation Giuliani

1B05A_00212189 mes-711.eml eml 4/13/2021 14:10 "Joe Sibley" <sibley@camarasibley.com> <JoAnn.Zafonte@giulianipartners.com> "Giuliani 3" <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> Re: Giuliani representation Giuliani
"Zafonte, Jo Ann"


"Maria Ryan"
"Christina Bobb" <Maria.Ryan@giulianipartners.com>, "Rudy "John Leventhal"
1B05A_00212222 mes-678.eml eml 4/13/2021 21:50 <christina@cgbstrategies.com> Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> <judgeleventhal@aidalalaw.com> FW: Manual Giuliani
"Maria Ryan"
<MARIA.RYAN@giulianipartners.com>,
"Christina Bobb"
<christina@cgbstrategies.com>, "Rudolph
1B05A_00212228 mes-672.eml eml 4/14/2021 10:34 "Joe Sibley" <sibley@camarasibley.com> Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> GIULIANI -- OUTLINE OF ELEMENTS OF PROOF Giuliani
"Maria Ryan"
<MARIA.RYAN@giulianipartners.com>,
"Christina Bobb"
<christina@cgbstrategies.com>, "Rudolph Re: GIULIANI -- OUTLINE OF ELEMENTS OF
1B05A_00212262 mes-640.eml eml 4/14/2021 22:22 "Joe Sibley" <sibley@camarasibley.com> Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> PROOF Giuliani
"Rudolph Giuliani"
1B05A_00212335 mes-575.eml eml 4/16/2021 15:02 "Louis Russo" <lrusso@russolaw-llc.com> <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> REMINDER: Please sign this document Giuliani
"rhelen0528@gmail.com" FW: Transfer file from "Epson Connect Scan to
1B05A_00212492 mes-434.eml eml 4/20/2021 19:04 "Costello, Robert J." <rjc@dhclegal.com> <rhelen0528@gmail.com> Cloud" Giuliani
1B05A_00212538 mes-393.eml eml 4/21/2021 17:43 "Costello, Robert J." <rjc@dhclegal.com> "Rudy Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> 2021.04.21 Giuliani LOI Follow-up.pdf Giuliani
1B05A_00212621 mes-317.eml eml 4/23/2021 14:21 "Costello, Robert J." <rjc@dhclegal.com> "Rudy Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> Fwd: TrumpMedia...and Direct Giuliani
"Celeste Levindoski"
<clevindoski@scaringilaw.com>,
"jfitzpatrick@donaldtrump.com"
<jfitzpatrick@donaldtrump.com>,
"mike@mikeroman.com"
<mike@mikeroman.com>,
"giuliani.andrew@gmail.com" RE: 20-472 FW: Donald J. Trump for President,
<giuliani.andrew@gmail.com>, Inc. v. Secretary Commonwealth of
"Marc A. Scaringi Esq." "acannon@donaldtrump.com" "rhelen0528@gmail.com" Pennsylvania, No. 20-3371 (3d Cir.) [IWOV-
1B05A_00212878 mes-81.eml eml 4/27/2021 13:43 <marc@scaringilaw.com> <acannon@donaldtrump.com> <rhelen0528@gmail.com> HASP1.FID136687] Giuliani
RUDOLPH GIULIANI 4-1-21 Russo Law Engagement Letter - Rudolph
1B05A_00394319 Extra Files eml 4/1/2021 22:18 <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> Rudolph Giuliani <rhelen0528@gmail.com> Giuliani.pdf Giuliani
RUDOLPH GIULIANI 4-1-21 Russo Law Engagement Letter - Rudolph
1B05A_00394325 Extra Files eml 4/2/2021 5:29 <rudolphgiuliani@icloud.com> Joseph Sibley <Sibley@camarasibley.com> Giuliani-1 Giuliani
1B05A_00452195 thumbnail_14.jpeg jpg 10/3/2020 20:08 Giuliani
1B05A_00452218 thumbnail_3.jpg jpg 10/3/2020 20:08 Giuliani
1B05A_00452220 thumbnail_1.jpg jpg 10/3/2020 20:09 Giuliani
1B05A_00455764 5005_4.JPG jpg 11/16/2020 4:24 Giuliani
1B05A_00456595 399DE14E-F6D3-4B61-BC9D-C07945EE2426.JPG jpg 11/29/2020 9:36 Giuliani
1B05A_00456596 D09560F4-349F-46C0-9B82-DBF943831B4D.JPG jpg 11/29/2020 9:36 Giuliani

78056FDD-14BB-4D6D-906D-
F4712B4DF58B.0131a6561b084b3cd6e85a9ba2
1B05A_00458147 263f3f8403819d71 jpg 12/17/2020 16:29 Giuliani
7D061353-8400-442A-A78B-
B0A8874768AB.017a2d0b8f026eb18d4e29bcdd
1B05A_00458155 379dae049808a51f jpg 12/17/2020 16:29 Giuliani
BB634329-417E-4239-839B-
7FACC1BCEE18.01065947b0976bcc5231063bac
1B05A_00458165 a7555bff467c3f63 jpg 12/17/2020 16:29 Giuliani
95A261E4-4C8B-41B7-9EFE-
0BEB9A3B042B.01c83dd525e9528714fef375b4
1B05A_00467262 dc233eb88fabd507 jpg 3/4/2021 19:38 Giuliani
591CCB9F-2FA2-47C9-AB6A-
4EAEF85B1341.0185408091a1fe7dc5f7d9cce41
1B05A_00468815 b65f83d5463da1d jpg 3/12/2021 23:45 Giuliani
BFF318ED-5D5B-48F5-86FA-
262D7E85D509.014a5e2ec844443de87c8137a2
1B05A_00468816 6ad289e49dc278df jpg 3/12/2021 23:45 Giuliani
FAD108BD-6850-4F4C-B786-
FB8509B11798.01b809855fb1f396dc895a6e407
1B05A_00468819 804d03107dd6341 jpg 3/12/2021 23:45 Giuliani
FE09B357-C460-4316-BA03-
549CA6513B1E.01a9ae2391208401a5b2c317b0
1B05A_00468820 8b8aee27c040a7c5 jpg 3/12/2021 23:45 Giuliani
9762EBD9-3676-4A18-9121-
3E1EBEF90181.01da20805f124309c5adc9bc944
1B05A_00470444 2c255736f6e3975 jpg 3/22/2021 15:18 Giuliani
1B05A_00776943 1.2_11.emlxpart html 3/1/2021 14:17 Giuliani
1B05A_00776946 1.2_13.emlxpart html 3/1/2021 15:11 Giuliani
1B05A_00842209 2_28.emlxpart html 4/16/2021 19:02 Giuliani
rhelen0528@gmail.com Rudolph Giuliani
'+18282002544 Mark Meadows
(owner) Unknown rhelen0528@gmail.com
1B09A_00123781 Chats_3791 txt 1/4/2021 13:50 '+18282002544 Mark Meadows Rudolph Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
1B09A_00123791 Chats_3799 txt 1/6/2021 13:01 '+18282002544 Mark Meadows Rudolph Giuliani (owner) Giuliani


(owner) +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani
+19172979169 Rudolph Giuliani
(owner) +19179513862 Rudy Giuliani
+19172979169 Rudolph Giuliani
1B09A_00124486 Chats_2306 txt 2/20/2021 15:27 '+17138980494 Joseph Sibley (owner) Giuliani
~/Library/SMS/Attachments/0d/13/48982FBF- '+16199778100 Christina Bobb
F4DD-4201-B1D3- rhelen0528@gmail.com Rudolph Giuliani
1B09A_00124724 2FD29F924EAC/Giuliani_DC_Bar copy.docx docx 3/1/2021 2:07 rhelen0528@gmail.com Rudolph Giuliani (owner) Giuliani Christina Bobb
~/Library/SMS/Attachments/bb/11/23189EA7- '+19177630111 Arthur Aidala
2315-494D-B900- rhelen0528@gmail.com Rudolph Giuliani
1B09A_00124898 0CFAFD92E6E5/Giuliani_DC_Bar copy.docx docx 3/5/2021 16:42 rhelen0528@gmail.com Rudolph Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
~/Library/SMS/Attachments/ff/15/3E50DE1D- '+15169870213 Bob Costello
F215-4FFB-96C8- rhelen0528@gmail.com Rudolph Giuliani
1B09A_00124913 49F007811C47/Giuliani_DC_Bar copy.docx docx 3/5/2021 18:27 rhelen0528@gmail.com Rudolph Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
~/Library/SMS/Attachments/76/06/AEB5D616- '+19177630111 Arthur Aidala
F68D-4336-B8A8- rhelen0528@gmail.com Rudolph Giuliani
1B09A_00124947 F83ABC235400/Giuliani_DC_Bar copy.docx docx 3/6/2021 13:07 rhelen0528@gmail.com Rudolph Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
~/Library/SMS/Attachments/fa/10/477DD8A6- '+16199778100 Christina Bobb
C9B2-4A90-9FED- rhelen0528@gmail.com Rudolph Giuliani
1B09A_00124952 B5D9F3AA83D5/Giuliani_DC_Bar copy.docx docx 3/6/2021 16:19 rhelen0528@gmail.com Rudolph Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
~/Library/SMS/Attachments/bb/11/BF8BAF97- '+16199778100 Christina Bobb
132A-42A3-83BD- rhelen0528@gmail.com Rudolph Giuliani
1B09A_00124954 60081BF75939/Giuliani_DC_Bar copy.docx docx 3/6/2021 16:20 rhelen0528@gmail.com Rudolph Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
(owner) +12022567940 Jason Miller
(owner) Unknown +16032541415 Dr. Maria
Ryan rhelen0528@gmail.com Rudolph Giuliani
1B09A_00125386 Chats_2430 txt 3/20/2021 2:54 '+15169870213 Bob Costello Rudolph Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
1B09A_00125476 Chats_2077 txt 3/22/2021 0:08 '+17138980494 Joseph Sibley Rudolph Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
(owner) Unknown +15163025655 Adam Katz
1B09A_00125616 Chats_1106 txt 3/23/2021 21:16 '+16032541415 Dr. Maria Ryan (owner) Giuliani
1B09A_00125805 Chats_1109 txt 3/30/2021 14:54 '+15163025655 Adam Katz (owner) Giuliani
(owner) Unknown +19172979169 Rudolph
1B09A_00125821 Chats_956 txt 3/30/2021 20:59 '+16032541415 Dr. Maria Ryan Giuliani Giuliani
(owner) Unknown +16199778100 Christina
1B09A_00125910 Chats_847 txt 4/1/2021 16:07 '+16032541415 Dr. Maria Ryan Bobb +12102407114 Col Phil Waldron Giuliani

1B09A_00126257 Chats_1938 txt 4/7/2021 1:53 '+15163025655 Adam Katz Rudolph Giuliani (owner) Giuliani
1B09A_00127231 Chats_2071 txt 4/23/2021 15:32 '+18452384214 Zev Zelenko (owner) Giuliani
1B09A_00128324 CB18F40C-2B7B-4F59-A154-998C2F074D62.pdf pdf 11/1/2020 22:05 Giuliani
1B09A_00128353 088D8B0B-84BF-4322-AAD8-080493C7F0E2.pdf pdf 12/2/2020 7:04 Giuliani
1B09A_00128354 36ED0413-5FB7-4ADE-8E37-3A88F2AFC457.pdf pdf 12/2/2020 7:04 Giuliani
1B09A_00128359 A10FE6EE-BE84-48F2-B7DA-8B6439CD616E.pdf pdf 12/2/2020 7:40 Giuliani

95D24CCD-04A2-4A29-9FD0-
1B09A_00128360 3BDC01AB0786.pdf pdf 12/2/2020 7:52 Giuliani
1B09A_00128362 52F0A351-3B12-4549-99F7-9007C18D14A3.pdf pdf 12/5/2020 23:04 Giuliani

TEAM COORDINATION AND STRATEGIC
1B09A_00128370 PLANNING CALL 12-4-20.docx docx 12/12/2020 15:23 Giuliani Katherine Friess
1B09A_00128371 AZ_Memo_Facts_Law.docx docx 12/12/2020 15:31 Giuliani Jack Wilenchik
1B09A_00128372 AZ_Memo_Facts_Law_3.docx docx 12/12/2020 15:38 Giuliani Jack Wilenchik
1B09A_00128377 Scan0001.pdf pdf 12/12/2020 16:50 Giuliani
1B09A_00128378 POTUS CALL WITH SPEAKER RALSTON.docx docx 12/12/2020 16:58 Giuliani Bill White
1B09A_00128379 MI_Memo_Facts_Law.docx docx 12/12/2020 17:00 Giuliani
1B09A_00128383 Voting Litigation Overview 12.07.20.docx docx 12/12/2020 18:27 Giuliani Justin Riemer - Legal
1B09A_00128384 AZ_Memo_Facts_Law_1.docx docx 12/12/2020 18:46 Giuliani
2020-11-20 Chesebro memo on real
1B09A_00128388 deadline2.pdf pdf 12/12/2020 20:10 Giuliani Kenneth Chesebro
12-7-20 Memo on AZ Electors and federal
1B09A_00128391 process.pdf pdf 12/12/2020 23:04 Giuliani JackW
2020-11-18 Chesebro memo on real
1B09A_00128393 deadline.pdf pdf 12/12/2020 23:15 Giuliani Kenneth
2020-12-06 Chesebro memo on Trump electors
1B09A_00128394 voting on Dec 14.pdf pdf 12/12/2020 23:16 Giuliani Kenneth Chesebro
1B09A_00128404 Nevada Electors Memo.docx docx 12/13/2020 12:44 Giuliani Heather Flick
1B09A_00128406 MI_Memo.docx docx 12/13/2020 13:18 Giuliani Christina Bobb
Memo to Giuliani re Procedure for Assigning

1B09A_00128407 Presidential Electors (00585393xA4094).docx docx 12/13/2020 13:23 Giuliani Emilie O. Denmark
Draft press release for state Republican
1B09A_00128440 party.docx docx 12/13/2020 20:46 Giuliani Kenneth Chesebro
2020-11-18 Chesebro memo on real deadline --
1B09A_00128441 streamlined dec 10.pdf pdf 12/13/2020 20:59 Giuliani John2
1B09A_00128443 1 -- How to cast Electoral votes in MI.docx docx 12/13/2020 21:29 Giuliani Kenneth Chesebro
2 -- Draft press release for MI Republican
The Constitutional Authority of State
1B09A_00128451 Legislatures To Choose Electors.pdf pdf 12/13/2020 23:33 Giuliani Eastman, John
2 -- Draft press release for PA Republican
1 -- How to cast Electoral votes in PA --
1B09A_00128454 edited.docx docx 12/14/2020 3:06 Giuliani Kenneth Chesebro
1B09A_00128466 Findings_Draft.docx docx 12/16/2020 22:07 Giuliani Christina Bobb
1B09A_00128467 BD4621D2-1A84-48F6-9D13-D721F9813CF7.pdf pdf 12/16/2020 22:08 Giuliani
1B09A_00128468 829AB610-91A9-45DB-A267-B75374A7B858.pdf pdf 12/16/2020 22:09 Giuliani
1B09A_00128469 777EA6EE-2936-4257-AB63-3547AA34D9F1.pdf pdf 12/16/2020 22:10 Giuliani
1B09A_00128470 28C7486E-58FE-45A4-B4AD-428D0D93445C.pdf pdf 12/16/2020 22:12 Giuliani

1B09A_00128487 Document (2).docx docx 1/10/2021 22:14 Giuliani Rudolph Giuliani
3BE2CB74-DD81-4DC7-908A-
1B09A_00130171 911B6DB30EE8.docx docx 4/20/2021 13:10 Giuliani Rudolph Giuliani
390C21B4-C3AE-45B9-8C91-
1B09A_00130172 33AFD52B0B7A.docx docx 4/20/2021 13:10 Giuliani Rudolph Giuliani
5F1D9B1C-A5A2-493B-BAF0-
1B09A_00130173 87ACF16C88F3.docx docx 4/20/2021 13:10 Giuliani Rudolph Giuliani
71629A7A-D2B8-48FD-83CA-
1B09A_00130174 C07848A2E8B8.docx docx 4/20/2021 13:10 Giuliani Rudolph Giuliani
1B09A_00131830 mes-687.eml eml 3/29/2021 18:44 <christina@cgbstrategies.com> <Maria.Ryan@giulianipartners.com> Trump Memo Giuliani
"Maria Ryan" "Christina Bobb"
1B09A_00131833 mes-684.eml eml 3/30/2021 18:01 <Maria.Ryan@giulianipartners.com> <christina@cgbstrategies.com> "Rudolph Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> Re: Trump Memo Giuliani
1B09A_00131834 mes-683.eml eml 3/30/2021 18:02 <christina@cgbstrategies.com> <Maria.Ryan@giulianipartners.com> "Rudolph Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> Re: Trump Memo Giuliani
"Christina Bobb"
1B09A_00131836 mes-681.eml eml 3/30/2021 20:28 <christina@cgbstrategies.com> "Rudy Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> Fwd: CONFIDENTIAL - Follow Up Memo Giuliani

"Zafonte, Jo Ann"
1B09A_00131844 mes-674.eml eml 3/31/2021 19:14 "Joe Sibley" <sibley@camarasibley.com> <JoAnn.Zafonte@giulianipartners.com> Fwd: Giuliani representation Giuliani
1B09A_00131846 mes-672.eml eml 4/1/2021 11:51 "Rudolph Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> "Joe Sibley" <sibley@camarasibley.com> Re: Giuliani representation Giuliani
1B09A_00131847 mes-671.eml eml 4/1/2021 11:52 "Joseph Sibley" <sibley@camarasibley.com> "Rudolph Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> Re: Giuliani representation Giuliani
"rhelen0528@gmail.com"
1B09A_00131856 mes-662.eml eml 4/5/2021 22:12 "Costello, Robert J." <rjc@dhclegal.com> <rhelen0528@gmail.com> FW: Few more Giuliani
"Maria Ryan" Rhelen0528 <rhelen0528@gmail.com>, Sibley
1B09A_00131888 mes-631.eml eml 4/10/2021 14:58 <Maria.Ryan@giulianipartners.com> <sibley@camarasibley.com> Ruby and daughter passing USB Giuliani
"Maria Ryan"
<Maria.Ryan@giulianipartners.com>,
"Christina Bobb" "sibley@camarasibley.com"
1B09A_00131901 mes-620.eml eml 4/10/2021 16:21 <christina@cgbstrategies.com> <sibley@camarasibley.com> Original Antrim County Report Giuliani
"Zafonte, Jo Ann"


"Maria Ryan"
"Christina Bobb" <Maria.Ryan@giulianipartners.com>, "Rudy "John Leventhal"
1B09A_00132022 mes-510.eml eml 4/13/2021 21:50 <christina@cgbstrategies.com> Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> <judgeleventhal@aidalalaw.com> FW: Manual Giuliani
"rhelen0528@gmail.com" FW: Transfer file from "Epson Connect Scan to
1B09A_00132241 mes-318.eml eml 4/20/2021 19:04 "Costello, Robert J." <rjc@dhclegal.com> <rhelen0528@gmail.com> Cloud" Giuliani
1B09A_00132267 mes-296.eml eml 4/21/2021 17:43 "Costello, Robert J." <rjc@dhclegal.com> "Rudy Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> 2021.04.21 Giuliani LOI Follow-up.pdf Giuliani
1B09A_00132328 mes-240.eml eml 4/23/2021 14:21 "Costello, Robert J." <rjc@dhclegal.com> "Rudy Giuliani" <rhelen0528@gmail.com> Fwd: TrumpMedia...and Direct Giuliani
"Celeste Levindoski"
<clevindoski@scaringilaw.com>,
"jfitzpatrick@donaldtrump.com"
<jfitzpatrick@donaldtrump.com>,
"mike@mikeroman.com"
<mike@mikeroman.com>,
"giuliani.andrew@gmail.com" RE: 20-472 FW: Donald J. Trump for President,
<giuliani.andrew@gmail.com>, Inc. v. Secretary Commonwealth of
"Marc A. Scaringi Esq." "acannon@donaldtrump.com" "rhelen0528@gmail.com" Pennsylvania, No. 20-3371 (3d Cir.) [IWOV-
1B09A_00132527 mes-64.eml eml 4/27/2021 13:43 <marc@scaringilaw.com> <acannon@donaldtrump.com> <rhelen0528@gmail.com> HASP1.FID136687] Giuliani
1B09A_00442321 399DE14E-F6D3-4B61-BC9D-C07945EE2426.JPG jpg 11/29/2020 3:13 Giuliani
1B09A_00442322 D09560F4-349F-46C0-9B82-DBF943831B4D.JPG jpg 11/29/2020 3:13 Giuliani

1B09A_00509273 thumbnail.jpeg jpg 4/4/2021 3:33 Giuliani
1B09A_00512264 thumbnail.jpg jpg 4/9/2021 21:40 Giuliani
560D8938-A136-43B8-85E4-
02E73C4A37CB.011ca75c42a1daae502276b38e
1B09A_00512285 31eedbb6d9b5cd88 jpg 4/10/2021 10:54 Giuliani
4A098A37-F17C-4B5F-8557-
D8A406C28F9A.013c65d8a6715c421b293ba947
1B09A_00513260 6f3c4e62061416ef jpg 4/10/2021 19:43 Giuliani
1FDB91C6-06B8-499F-827B-
5FEB81AFFC36.0117fedf9ed9ed116ef0713f2fc0
1B09A_00513261 8c0c60b2279fcd jpg 4/10/2021 19:43 Giuliani
CC4924BA-E84C-43E2-909C-
8F5B178276BB.010919b18f4b433326ebaeb936
1B09A_00513264 4356570cbe2da87e jpg 4/10/2021 19:43 Giuliani
1B09A_00693988 PDFTextIndex_29.txt txt 4/26/2021 4:07 Giuliani
Cellebrite IM: [Giuliani,Rudolph Giuliani
1B10_00000481 cellebrite-im-acabe963-2019-04-30.rsmf RSMF Rudolph Giuliani [rhelen0528@gmail.com] Giuliani (rhelen0528@gmail.com)] - 2019-04-30 Giuliani Rudolph Giuliani
1B10_00001438.0001 __Libr_1(7) png Giuliani

EF77FD32-4C1C-4F58-89DB-
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1B10_00001438.0003 __Libr_1(8) png Giuliani

ED51C659-03B0-46E3-B7FD-
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1B10_00001533 cellebrite-im-d26d9bd0-2019-04-26.rsmf RSMF Giuliani Giuliani Cellebrite IM: [Giuliani] - 2019-04-26 Giuliani Giuliani
196BD033-C7FF-4C1C-B193-
1B10_00001533.0001 CE8762E00837.pluginPayloadAttachment png Giuliani
496159D2-CA9A-42DF-8D85-
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Cellebrite IM: [Rudolph Giuliani
(09172979169),Giuliani (19172979169)] - 2019-
1B8_00000455 cellebrite-im-dc71efca-2019-04-08.rsmf RSMF Rudolph Giuliani (09172979169) Giuliani (19172979169) 04-08 Giuliani Rudolph Giuliani (09172979169)
1B8_00000455.0001 Obstruction Notes.docx docx Giuliani
Cellebrite WhatsApp Chat: [Vitaly Pruss

cellebrite-chat-7f67d42f-e8e1-4b65-b3d4- (12127679039),Giuliani (19172979169),System
1B8_00139776 6e612210f9bf-2019-05-22.rsmf RSMF Vitaly Pruss (12127679039) Giuliani (19172979169);System Message Message] - 2019-05-22 Giuliani Vitaly Pruss (12127679039)
December 17 2020 POTUS Findings FINAL with
REV00000001 RG edits WCB Comm.docx docx UNASSIGNED
REV00000002 Findings FINAL.docx docx UNASSIGNED
REV00000003 Findings_Draft.docx docx UNASSIGNED

EXHIBIT 4
Page 1
1
2 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
3 FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
4 -------------------------------x
5 RUBY FREEMAN and
6 WANDREA MOSS,
7 Plaintiffs,
8 v. Civil Action No.
9 21-3354 (BAH)
10 RUDOLPH W. GIULIANI,
11 Defendant.
12 ------------------------------x
13
14 DEPOSITION OF RUDOLPH W. GIULIANI
15 March 1, 2023
16
17
18
19 Reported by:
20 MARY F. BOWMAN, RPR, CRR
21 JOB NO. 5786854
22
23
24
25
Veritext Legal Solutions

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Page 2
1
2
3
4
5 March 1, 2023
6 9:30 a.m.
7
8
9 Deposition of RUDOLPH W. GIULIANI,
10 held at Willkie, Farr & Gallagher, LLP, 787
11 Seventh Avenue, New York, New York, before
12 Mary F. Bowman, a Registered Professional
13 Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter, and
14 Notary Public of the States of New Jersey
15 and New York.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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Page 3
1
2 APPEARANCES:
3
4 WILLKIE FARR & GALLAGHER, LLP
5 Attorneys for Plaintiffs
6 1875 K Street, NW
7 Washington DC 20006
8 BY: MICHAEL J. GOTTLIEB, ESQ.
9 M. ANNIE HOUGHTON-LARSEN, ESQ.
10 MAGGIE MacCURDY, ESQ.
11 MERYL GOVERSKI, ESQ. (Via Zoom)
12 JOHN KNOBLETT, ESQ. (Via Zoom)
13 -and-
14 DUBOSE MILLER LLC
15 75 14th Street NE, Suite 2110
16 Atlanta, Georgia 30309
17 BY: VON A. DUBOSE, ESQ. (Via Zoom)
18 -and-
19 UNITED TO PROTECT DEMOCRACY, INC.
20 82 Nassau Street, #601
21 New York, NY 10038
22 BY: JOHN LANGFORD, ESQ. (Via Zoom)
23
24
25

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Page 4
1
2 APPEARANCES:
3
4 CAMARA & SIBLEY
5 Attorneys for Defendant
6 1108 Lavaca Street, Suite 110263
7 Austin, TX 78701
8 BY: JOE SIBLEY, ESQ.
9 -and-
10 DAVIDOFF HUTCHER & CITRON LLP
11 605 Third Avenue
12 New York, New York 10158
13 BY: ROBERT J. COSTELLO, ESQ.
14
15
16
17
18 Also Present:
19 Deverell Write, Legal Videographer
20
21
22
23
24
25

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Excerpted
Page 15
1 Giuliani
2 A. He has since been pardoned and
3 he's been reinstated as an official
4 investigator.
5 Q. Fair enough.
6 As a general matter, he is
7 somebody you believe as credible --
8 A. Yeah, as a general matter, he is
9 as credible as anybody I know that I would
10 consider credible.
11 Q. You say he doesn't use email
12 often, is that right?
13 A. Yeah, he is more -- he is prone
14 to short messages, I guess, is the point
15 I'm trying to get across.
16 Q. Understood.
17 So sometimes he provides you with
18 information in person. Sometimes he sends
19 you a text.
20 If he has a video or an article
21 to share with you, would he typically do
22 that by text, by email? Do you have any
23 recollection of him ever sharing videos or
24 links to news articles?
25 A. Yeah, I should -- this particular

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Page 16
1 Giuliani
2 case, this is not a case that he worked on
3 very heavily, or I worked on with him very
4 heavily. Occasional situation here and
5 there. So I can't -- it doesn't
6 necessarily apply to this case.
7 If you are asking as a general
8 practice, the general practice is, it would
9 depend on how sensitive the document or the
10 video was. If it wasn't that sensitive, he
11 would send it. I would watch it
12 electronically. If it was sensitive, he
13 would come to my house, I would go to his
14 house, or we would meet in an office and he
15 would show it to me.
16 Q. Okay.
17 In terms of texting, do you --
18 A. I don't think that -- what I just
19 told you -- applies to this case.
20 Q. Okay. I understand.
21 In terms of texting, do you have
22 one phone, more than one phone?
23 MR. COSTELLO: At what point in
24 time?
25 A. Right now?

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Page 17
1 Giuliani
2 Q. Let's start with right now and
3 we'll work backwards.
4 A. Right now, I really have
5 officially one phone. I have a bunch of
6 inoperative phones. I was able to get one
7 of those operative and it has a single
8 phone number on it. And I don't use it
9 other than to take calls on my radio show.
10 So it's a call-in number for a radio show.
11 But it's a single cell phone that
12 you plug in, so I can take it anywhere with
13 me. So I really have one phone right now.
14 Typically, I had two phones.
15 That goes back to when I was mayor, almost
16 since they had phones. And one phone, it
17 wasn't divided between business and
18 pleasure. It was divided between good
19 people and bad people.
20 The people I wanted to talk to
21 were on one phone. The people that I were
22 trying to avoid or have somebody else talk
23 to were on another phone, as best as I
24 could do it, so that I knew which phone had
25 the priority of answering.

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Page 18
1 Giuliani
2 And that hasn't always been the
3 case, but when I had positions of intense
4 hours and calls and, let's say, mostly
5 government positions, that's what I did.
6 When I was in private law
7 practice, I didn't do that.
8 Q. When was the last time that you
9 had two phones that you were using?
10 A. When the FBI took it from me.
11 Q. When was that?
12 A. It would be in 20 -- was it 2021,
13 Bob?
14 MR. COSTELLO: Do you want the
15 date?
16 THE WITNESS: Bob would know the
17 day.
18 Q. I'm just interested in what you
19 remember.
20 A. I don't remember the exact date.
21 It was about two years ago.
22 Q. So since whatever that point in
23 time was that the FBI took your phone, you
24 had one phone?
25 A. They kept those phones, and I

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Page 19
1 Giuliani
2 went and bought a new iPhone and I set it
3 up, and that's been my -- that iPhone has
4 been my only phone really until now.
5 Q. And what is the number for that
6 phone number for that iPhone that you have
7 had since the FBI took your phone?
8 A. 347-735-0426.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you.
10 And then apart from that
11 iPhone -- it is an iPhone, is that right?
12 A. Um-hm.
13 Q. Apart from that iPhone --
14 A. To be absolutely precise, I would
15 have to check that number. Because I don't
16 really remember my number.
17 Q. All right.
18 A. Bob could check it right this
19 minute.
20 Q. We will ask your counsel to check
21 it and then we will come back to this
22 question.
23 A. I don't want to --
24 Q. Thank you for clarifying that. I
25 appreciate it.

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Page 20
1 Giuliani
2 So you have your iPhone. You
3 have the phone that you use only for
4 call-ins to the radio show.
5 A. Yeah, and I had that about a
6 month.
7 Q. Do you have email accounts that
8 you use to correspond with people?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. What -- can you tell us what
11 those email accounts are?
12 A. I currently have only one email
13 account for me personally. My businesses
14 have emails accounts, but I have one
15 personally.
16 And that -- want me to give it to
17 you?
18 Q. Yes, please.
19 A. It's truth, lower case, and,
20 spelled out, justice, number 4, letter U
21 @protonnow.com.
22 Q. Is that now your principal email
23 account?
24 A. Yeah, that's my -- it's the only
25 one that functions that I know of.

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Page 21
1 Giuliani
2 Q. How long have you had that?
3 A. Since a few days after the FBI
4 seized my electronics.
5 Q. Prior to the seizure of your
6 electronics, did you have a different email
7 account?
8 A. I did.
9 Q. And what was that?
10 A. There was a main one and then
11 several others.
12 Q. What is the principal email
13 account you used?
14 A. The main one was -- if I can
15 remember it.
16 I can't remember -- the Gmail
17 account, I would have to look it up.
18 Q. For present purposes, we can say
19 you had a Gmail account?
20 A. It was a Gmail account and then
21 there were several offshoot accounts, like
22 RudyGiuliani@me.com, and I have no idea how
23 they got set up, what they were for, but
24 occasionally, I had about three of those
25 like that.

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2 But the main account that would
3 carry I think every significant email would
4 be the Gmail account.
5 Q. Okay. So if we are talking about
6 the period of time around the 2020
7 election, so call it November 2020 --
8 A. That would be -- that would be --
9 that would be the account that I would be
10 using.
11 Q. Okay.
12 So whatever the handle is on that
13 Gmail account, to the extent you were using
14 email --
15 A. Yeah, I'll get that for you, when
16 you want me to look.
17 Q. Okay.
18 Would you send and receive emails
19 from your phone from that Gmail account?
20 A. Um-hm. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Same for your ProtonMail account
22 currently?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Let's stick in the period of time
25 around the 2020 election.

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2 You had social media accounts, is
3 that right?
4 A. I did.
5 Q. Twitter account?
6 A. I did.
7 Q. Did you ever receive direct
8 messages on the Twitter account?
9 A. Probably. I didn't use it for
10 that purpose.
11 Q. Did you ever send any direct
12 messages from your Twitter account?
13 A. I may have but never -- I can't
14 exclude the possibility that I did that,
15 but that wasn't a practice that I followed.
16 It would have come up because of some
17 interchange or -- I can't remember saying
18 I'm going to go to Twitter and send a
19 direct message.
20 Q. What about did you have any
21 so-called ephemeral message platforms
22 around the time of the 2020 election, so
23 Signal, Telegram?
24 A. I had all of those and used them
25 rarely. I had Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp.

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2 Everybody telling you those are more --
3 those are more secure than others and then
4 other people come along and tell you they
5 aren't.
6 I was in the cyber security
7 business, which I left to represent
8 President Trump, and my view was that they
9 were only marginally better, and if it was
10 going to be any serious inconvenience, not
11 worth it.
12 Q. So you mentioned Signal?
13 A. I used Signal. I used --
14 probably WhatsApp --
15 Q. WhatsApp?
16 A. -- I used more often.
17 I was mostly guided by the people
18 I was communicating with. I didn't have a
19 favorite one. So if they said, I want to
20 communicate with you on WhatsApp. I said,
21 Fine, let's do WhatsApp.
22 And then I would ask my staff --
23 but this is a while back when I would say
24 Go check them out, and they would say, Two
25 others are really better. So I probably

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2 had about four of those.
3 Q. And do you still have access to
4 any of those accounts?
5 A. I do, but I can't remember the
6 last time I used it.
7 Q. But you -- as of today, you still
8 are able to access, should you want to,
9 your WhatsApp account?
10 A. I think so, unless you have to --
11 unless you have to renew it because I don't
12 remember renewing it in a long, long time.
13 Q. All right. So you may have --
14 you may have access to these messaging
15 platforms, but you're not certain?
16 A. Right. I mean, I basically have
17 to go on my phone and see if they're still
18 active.
19 Q. Have you done that in the course
20 of responding to discovery in this case?
21 A. Not recently.
22 Q. Have you ever?
23 A. Maybe way back when we first had
24 to make requests. I did a quick look at
25 those at one time.

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2 I don't know if it was just this
3 case or I lumped a group of cases together
4 and went through them because I knew it
5 wouldn't contain a lot. I didn't find
6 anything on there that related either to
7 this case or maybe let me say this group of
8 cases.
9 Q. Okay. Specifically with respect
10 to this case, we have served discovery
11 requests, requests for production,
12 interrogatories.
13 And my question to you, sir, is,
14 do you have any recollection, after
15 receiving the requests for production in
16 this case of having searched through your
17 devices or having had somebody else search
18 through your devices and accounts for
19 responsive documents?
20 A. I do recall going through them.
21 I'm trying to remember when I did it
22 because I didn't have them for a long time.
23 So those were the apps that were
24 with the FBI, and I didn't know -- I didn't
25 know how to get them on my new phone. So

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2 when I got my new phone, for the longest
3 time, those apps were unavailable.
4 When I got them back, I did a
5 search of them. One of the cases I had in
6 mind was this one, and I didn't find
7 anything on it.
8 Q. Okay. Is there a person who
9 assists you with IT-related issues with
10 your phone or tech issues with your phone?
11 A. Different people at different
12 times.
13 Q. Okay. So since -- when you
14 restored the social media apps or messaging
15 apps to your phone, was there a specific
16 person who was assisting you?
17 A. No. I did that myself.
18 Q. Do you have any recollection of
19 when that happened?
20 A. I don't.
21 Q. Returning to the Gmail account
22 for just a moment, is the Gmail account
23 RHelen0528@gmail.com familiar to you?
24 A. That's it.
25 Q. That was the Gmail account you

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2 used?
3 A. That was my main Gmail account
4 of -- since I had Gmail. And somehow
5 others were created for specific purposes,
6 but that would cover 95 percent of any
7 email I had and probably every important
8 one.
9 Q. Do you -- have you ever gone back
10 to WhatsApp or Signal, not your apps but
11 the companies, to ask them for a pull of
12 any of your data?
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. You don't have any recollection
15 of doing that?
16 A. I don't.
17 Q. So you -- I want to make sure I
18 understand your testimony.
19 You believe at some point in time
20 after getting your new phone and putting
21 the messaging apps back on it, that you
22 went through some number of those apps to
23 look for responsive materials?
24 A. Yes, sir, to see what was on
25 there in case there were things that were

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2 on there that I didn't remember.
3 I mean, I didn't remember
4 anything of significance being on there.
5 But since I -- my memory is not anywhere
6 near 100 percent with all the data
7 involved.
8 But I didn't find anything of any
9 significance, anything relating to this
10 case or any of the others that you regard
11 in the election law case category.
12 Q. So you didn't find anything on
13 any of those apps or your email or anything
14 else that was on your phone --
15 A. Related to this.
16 Q. -- related to the 2020 election
17 generally?
18 A. Particularly this, right.
19 Q. Okay.
20 You have a number of -- well,
21 I'll withdraw that.
22 You currently have podcasts, is
23 that right?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. And a radio show?

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2 A. I do.
3 Q. And I believe you also have
4 different accounts on different social
5 media platforms --
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. -- that distribute those shows,
8 is that right?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. I know you have one podcast
11 called "Common Sense," is that right?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Do you have others?
14 A. Well, I sort of -- you could say
15 so.
16 Want me to describe them all to
17 you?
18 Q. Yes, please.
19 A. I have a list. It might be
20 easier.
21 I have a podcast -- really, it's
22 a video podcast because it's television and
23 audio, and it's done twice a week, put out
24 on a Wednesday and a Friday. And it's put
25 out on -- if not all, most of the video --

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2 who led it or participated in it, but she
3 participated in getting the people out so
4 that at some point around 10, the arena was
5 only -- the arena was closed, the public
6 gallery was empty, and the only people left
7 were four or five election workers who had
8 told the others that no more counting would
9 take place.
10 Q. Okay. And we are going to go
11 through each piece of this, so you will
12 have an opportunity to talk about each
13 different piece of it. That, I assure you.
14 Right now, I'm just focused on
15 the allegation that my clients, when you
16 have said they threw out the Republican
17 election observers, made up a phony excuse
18 about a water main break.
19 And what I am trying to
20 understand is two things. Let me start
21 with number one.
22 Number one is, as we sit here
23 today, years after this has happened, do
24 you believe that my clients made up an
25 excuse about a phony water main break in

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2 order to force the Republican election
3 observers to leave State Farm Arena on
4 November 3rd?
5 A. I believe that she participated
6 in the phony story of the water main break,
7 but I can't tell you that that was the
8 proximate cause of her having the people
9 removed because it conflicts with other
10 evidence that she told them that they had
11 to leave because they were not going to
12 count votes anymore, and there is a time
13 gap between the two that's the quite
14 substantial.
15 Q. So as you sit here today, you
16 don't know -- you do not know one way or
17 the other whether my clients, in forcing
18 the Republican observers to leave State
19 Farm Arena, said, You need to leave because
20 there is a water main break?
21 A. Correct. If I were doing it in a
22 complaint, I would allege it in the
23 alternative.
24 Q. Okay.
25 Now going back in time to after

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2 the election, late November, early December
3 of 2020, where did you learn the
4 information that -- or where did you hear
5 the information that Ms. Freeman or
6 Ms. Moss had told Republican observers that
7 they needed to leave on the night of the
8 election because there was a water main
9 break?
10 A. Well, I heard it from local
11 counsel, from -- I heard it from some of
12 the Republican officials.
13 I believe I had read some
14 newspaper articles about this water main
15 break or -- when I say, "read," I was shown
16 some newspaper articles about this water
17 main break. And over time, the water main
18 break seemed to change from a water main
19 break into something less serious and not
20 proximate to the exclusion of the public.
21 So it was very confusing as to
22 exactly how it was utilized.
23 Q. When you say -- sorry to
24 interrupt, I just want to clarify.
25 When you say, "It was very

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2 confusing," do you mean at that time, in
3 December of 2020, it was very confusing how
4 the water main break played into the
5 departure of the officials?
6 A. Correct. There is false
7 allegation of a water main break, some time
8 goes by, people are escorted out. That
9 would seem to me that those are the facts
10 that you know and that your client played a
11 major role in that.
12 Exactly what she said, when she
13 said it, whether it was said by others in
14 her presence, was it a collective thing, I
15 may have known that at that time. I don't
16 recall right now.
17 Q. When you say, "local counsel,"
18 are you referring to Ray Smith?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Anybody else?
21 A. Well, the people that work with
22 him.
23 Q. Okay.
24 Do you have a specific
25 recollection of talking to Ray Smith about

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2 this issue?
3 A. I don't.
4 Q. Okay. Is there any specific
5 person that you remember talking to about
6 the allegation that our clients had forced
7 Republican election officials out on the
8 grounds of a phony water main break?
9 MR. COSTELLO: Can I stop you for
10 one second?
11 You constantly say "Republican
12 officials," and his testimony was it
13 was the public, it was Democrats and
14 Republicans.
15 If we can stipulate to that, you
16 can continue to refer to them --
17 A. And it would help if you --
18 MR. COSTELLO: But it is not just
19 Republicans.
20 A. -- if you told me what it is that
21 I said.
22 Q. Let's mark an exhibit. Binder 2,
23 Volume 2, Tab 49. This will be Exhibit 8.
24 (Exhibit 8, transcript of an
25 excerpt from YouTube, dated December

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2 25, marked for identification, as of
3 this date.)
4 Q. Mr. Giuliani, the court reporter
5 has handed you what has been marked
6 Exhibit 8, which is a transcript of a
7 YouTube video that you released on
8 December -- on Christmas Day, December 25,
9 2020. The title is, "Who will be our
10 President? The current state of our
11 country."
12 And do you have a recollection of
13 doing an episode of Common Sense on
14 Christmas Day?
15 A. I do, I do. Yes.
16 Q. If you turn to page 19 of this
17 transcript, I direct your attention to the
18 first full paragraph on the page, lines 5
19 through 13, and specifically, starting on
20 line 8, you say, "Let's watch the Democrats
21 steal the election, and there you see it,
22 Ruby Freeman and her crew getting everybody
23 out of the center" --
24 A. This is page 19?
25 Q. Yes, sir. Page 19, and I am now

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2 on line 10.
3 "Ruby Freeman and her crew
4 getting everybody out of the center,
5 creating a false story that there was a
6 water main break. No water main break,
7 they get everybody out."
8 Do you see that?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. So you are alleging here that
11 Ms. Freeman and her crew were creating a
12 false story that there was a water main
13 break?
14 A. Correct. And I still believe
15 that's true, and that was told to me and at
16 the time, I -- at the time -- I don't know
17 if I was aware of the timing -- that the
18 false story about the water main break and
19 the conclusion that there was no water main
20 break was much earlier in the day than when
21 Ruby Freeman and her crew got everybody
22 out.
23 Q. Just so I understand it, what is
24 your view --
25 A. But except for the timing of

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2 this, that would be accurate.
3 Q. What is your view of whether or
4 not there was a -- at any time during the
5 day on November 3, a water leak or break or
6 whatever you described it, do you have an
7 understanding today of what happened with
8 respect to the water?
9 A. The only understanding I have is
10 that there was -- there was statements made
11 that there was a water main break, people
12 would have to leave the building.
13 When they examined it, it turned
14 out to be nothing more than a toilet that
15 had overflowed.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. And that occurred -- and that --
18 now, I'm putting a lot of facts together
19 that come in later, and that occurred at a
20 similar time to when people were excluded
21 in Pennsylvania, Detroit -- Pennsylvania,
22 Detroit, several other places.
23 Q. As you sit here today, do you
24 have an understanding of whether the water
25 leak or the overflowing toilet or whatever

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2 November 4, 2020 at 2:27 p.m.
3 A. 2:27?
4 Q. Yes.
5 Do you see that?
6 A. It's daytime obviously. You can
7 see the light.
8 Q. So whatever this exchange was
9 happened on the day after the election at
10 around 2:27 p.m.?
11 A. Were you telling me -- were you
12 giving me the top one?
13 Q. The date is attached to the
14 bottom screen.
15 MR. COSTELLO: Where is it here?
16 It's here.
17 A. That's the one he is talking
18 about.
19 Q. We are happy to play just a clip
20 from the State Farm --
21 A. And that date was what?
22 Q. November 4th at 2:27 p.m.
23 A. Fair enough.
24 I mean, it doesn't mean very much
25 because I don't recognize it.

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2 Q. I understand that, sir.
3 But whatever this event was that
4 happened, we can agree that it happened the
5 day after the election, not the day before
6 the election --
7 A. Whatever it was, yeah.
8 Q. -- is that correct? Okay.
9 All right. You have alleged -- I
10 think you just said in your testimony that
11 Ms. Moss had participated in -- previously
12 in voter fraud activities with an
13 algorithm, is that right?
14 Just a few minutes ago?
15 A. I was told -- I wasn't told that.
16 I was told that she -- this is the
17 daughter, right?
18 Q. Ms. Moss is Ms. Freeman's
19 daughter.
20 A. Yup. That she -- this passing of
21 the -- of the thumb drives was more in her
22 area of expertise.
23 I don't think they said that she
24 was involved in algorithms or -- but that's
25 the end result of what they do.

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2 But the way her expertise was
3 described is, she had done this in prior
4 elections, passed these thumb drives.
5 Q. Fair enough. So your testimony
6 is you were told and believed that Ms. Moss
7 had in previous elections passed thumb
8 drives that could manipulate voter
9 machines?
10 A. Someone told me she had been
11 working for them for about ten years and
12 that she -- she was a lot more expert in
13 this than her mother and that she brought
14 her mother into it and that she -- and when
15 we were looking at that stuff, they said,
16 This is her real area of expertise, these
17 thumb drives.
18 Q. Okay. You've also alleged that
19 Ms. Freeman has a history of voter fraud
20 participation, is that correct?
21 A. Yes, I was told that she had some
22 history of it also.
23 Q. And who told you that?
24 A. People on -- people on the legal
25 team. Either in that case or -- either in

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2 that case or in the case that was being put
3 together on Raffensperger.
4 Q. Were you told that Ms. Freeman or
5 Ms. Moss had a criminal record? Or were
6 you told that they had participated in
7 prior voting fraud? Or something else?
8 A. I was told Ms. -- I was told that
9 one of them, I think the older of the two,
10 had an arrest record.
11 Q. Okay. And they live in Georgia,
12 right?
13 A. At that point, yeah.
14 Q. Did you or anyone on your team
15 run a criminal records check or criminal
16 history check?
17 A. I didn't. She wasn't involved in
18 any case we were going to bring, so I
19 didn't run -- I wasn't going to use her as
20 a witness.
21 Q. You didn't think it was important
22 to do that before you accused them of
23 having a criminal background?
24 A. I just repeated what I was told.
25 Q. Okay. So you don't -- as you sit

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2 here today, you don't have any knowledge
3 one way or the other whether Ms. Freeman or
4 Ms. Moss has a criminal record or
5 criminal --
6 A. Just what I was told.
7 Q. And do you have a specific
8 recollection of the person who told you
9 that?
10 A. It was more than one.
11 Q. Such as?
12 A. I would have to really -- right
13 now, I don't, but I would have to narrow it
14 down.
15 Q. If a -- do you have any specific
16 names of people who told you that?
17 A. I don't.
18 Q. Do you have notes or records of
19 conversations about this from which you
20 would be able to reconstruct who told you
21 this information?
22 A. I have to look at them to tell
23 you that. I don't think so, but I might.
24 Q. Well, in this litigation, you
25 have admitted, I think, or at least in your

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2 motion to dismiss papers, that allegations
3 that Ms. Freeman or Ms. Moss had a criminal
4 record are "apparently false."
5 So what is it that has led you to
6 the belief today that that allegation is
7 apparently false?
8 A. Because there are no such -- we
9 can't find any such records.
10 Q. So at this point in time, you or
11 someone on your team has performed such a
12 search?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And identified that, in fact,
15 Ms. Freeman and Ms. Moss have no criminal
16 record to speak of?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. So in late December of 2020,
19 there was a document that I know you have
20 given some testimony about before that was
21 prepared called a "Strategic Communications
22 Plan of the Giuliani Presidential Legal
23 Defense Team."
24 Are you familiar with that
25 document?

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2 A. Only after the fact.
3 Q. Okay. Let's mark this as the
4 next exhibit, Exhibit 19. This is
5 Volume 1, Tab 12.
6 (Exhibit 19, document entitled,
7 "Strategic Communications Plan of the
8 Giuliani Presidential Legal Defense
9 Team," marked for identification, as of
10 this date.)
11 Q. Do you -- as you sit here today
12 and you looked at what has been marked as
13 Exhibit 19, do you recognize this document?
14 A. I should clarify how I recognize
15 it though.
16 Q. Please do.
17 A. I recognize it as something given
18 to me after this litigation began.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. I hadn't seen this before.
21 Q. So, Mr. Giuliani, you produced
22 this document to us in this litigation. So
23 how did you receive it?
24 A. I believe, I believe --
25 MR. SIBLEY: Object to form.

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2 article from Snopes.com dated December 18,
3 2020, entitled "Ruby Freeman was not
4 arrested by the FBI." And this is, again,
5 an article that is cited in your motion to
6 dismiss.
7 And if you look at page 4 --
8 sorry. I apologize, not page 4. If you
9 look at page 2, this article that you have
10 cited says, third paragraph down, "There
11 was no truth to this rumor that FBI did not
12 arrest Ruby Freeman for election fraud and
13 this person was not suspected outside of
14 conspiracy-minded circles of any illegal
15 activity related to the 2020 election."
16 Do you see that?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. Do you see that there is a
19 description of how this viral message --
20 there is a viral message that started this
21 rumor that were part of Twitter threads?
22 MR. COSTELLO: Talking about the
23 next paragraph, right?
24 MR. GOTTLIEB: Yes.
25 A. Okay.

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2 Q. So this article that you cited
3 references Facebook posts and Twitter posts
4 that began a viral theory that Ruby Freeman
5 had been arrested.
6 Are you aware of any other source
7 of information, apart from the ones
8 mentioned in this article, that
9 substantiate an allegation that Ruby
10 Freeman had been arrested?
11 A. Do I know any more sources for
12 this allegation?
13 Q. Correct.
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you ever do anything to
16 investigate whether or not Ruby Freeman had
17 been arrested and was providing testimony
18 about Stacey Abrams and the DNC?
19 A. I asked Bernie Kerik to look into
20 it.
21 Q. Did he?
22 A. I only did that a few days ago.
23 Q. So you asked Bernie Kerik a few
24 days ago to look into whether Ms. Freeman
25 had been arrested?

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2 A. Right.
3 Q. Did he come back to you --
4 A. No.
5 Q. -- with any information on it?
6 Mr. Kerik, I assume, knows how to
7 do criminal background checks, is that
8 right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you expect that if Ms. Freeman
11 had a criminal record, that Mr. Kerik would
12 be able to find it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And do you expect if Ms. Freeman
15 had been arrested --
16 A. I imagine she doesn't, but I just
17 thought he should check to be sure.
18 I don't know what this is. This
19 doesn't seem -- I mean, I disagree with a
20 lot of what's in here.
21 Q. Mr. Giuliani, when we were
22 looking at the strategic communications
23 plan, you had a reaction on the -- back on
24 the suitcase gate paragraph. I think you
25 still have it open there on your table.

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2 That's Exhibit 19?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. You seemed to have a reaction to
5 the text here that I wanted to ask you
6 about that says, "Need confirmation of
7 arrest and evidence."
8 Do you see that in writing?
9 A. Yeah. Well, it seemed to me,
10 it's going to get to the point of giving it
11 to the White House, you should confirm it
12 in advance.
13 Q. Before providing information like
14 this to the White House?
15 A. Right. You are getting to a
16 different stage now.
17 Q. You can see how it would be
18 problematic to --
19 A. Sure.
20 Q. -- tell the White House that
21 someone had been arrested --
22 A. Yeah, and I don't know if they
23 did. I mean, I wasn't there.
24 This is so confusing, I don't
25 know what they told the White House.

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2 Q. Okay. So you're not sure whether
3 they told the White House this but --
4 A. I was not at the meeting, by
5 design.
6 Q. If this was provided to the White
7 House, you would find that troubling?
8 A. Yeah, I would have corrected it.
9 In investigations, in things like
10 this, things change all the time.
11 Q. So just to be clear, when -- is
12 the only time that you asked Mr. Kerik to
13 look into Ms. Freeman's background in this
14 last week or so, that you can recall?
15 A. Gosh, I may have done it a long
16 time ago.
17 Q. Do you have a recollection of
18 doing it a long time ago?
19 A. I don't. I don't. I just don't
20 want to exclude it.
21 Q. So the only understanding that
22 you don't want to exclude that it could
23 have happened before is the only
24 recollection you have, as you sit here
25 today, of having looked into --

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2 would be careful in representations that he
3 would make to the White House Chief of
4 Staff?
5 A. I would think so.
6 Q. And particularly given that you
7 testified Mr. Kerik doesn't use email all
8 that often?
9 A. Yeah, he's very reliable.
10 Q. An email sent to the White House
11 Chief of Staff is one that goes into the
12 White House archives, is that right?
13 A. Um-hm.
14 Q. And so in this email, Mr. Kerik
15 has sent to Mr. Meadows on December 28,
16 2020, can you see that there is an
17 attachment on this email?
18 It's in the header of the email.
19 There is something that says "attachments"?
20 A. I'm sorry, I don't see the
21 attachment.
22 Q. Okay. I'm just asking in the
23 header of the email, there is a "From," a
24 "Sent," a "To," a "Subject" and an
25 "Attachments."

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2 Do you see those?
3 MR. COSTELLO: The fourth line
4 down, fifth line down.
5 A. One, two, three, four. Is that
6 what all those numbers mean?
7 I don't see attachment --
8 external --
9 MR. COSTELLO: No, two more lines
10 underneath that.
11 A. Giuliani Team Strategic --
12 MR. COSTELLO: That's the
13 attachment.
14 A. Are you saying he attached this
15 to this?
16 Q. Yes.
17 And I'm just saying the subject
18 line and the attachments line here say the
19 same thing, right? "Giuliani Team
20 Strategic Communications Plan Version 1"?
21 A. Got it.
22 Q. Do you see how in the title of
23 the attachment, or the title of Exhibit 22,
24 is the strategic communications plan, a
25 version of which we looked at in

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2 Exhibit 19, is that right?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Do you see Mr. Kerik has written
5 to Mr. Meadows saying, "Dear Mark, I know
6 the Mayor sent this to you last evening but
7 just wanted to emphasize the importance of
8 timing"?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. Was Mr. Kerik, safe to say,
11 referring to you when he refers to the
12 "Mayor"?
13 A. Um-hm.
14 Q. So he is saying, at least, that
15 you sent this to Mr. Meadows last evening,
16 which would have been December 27?
17 A. Yeah. But he was wrong.
18 My communication on this mostly
19 was with Katherine Friess, and it may be
20 that this is too ships passing in the
21 night, but Bernie -- Bernie may have
22 assumed that I did, but he certainly didn't
23 know that I did.
24 And we have talked about it since
25 then, so...

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2 Q. And so in talking about it since
3 then --
4 A. He -- he knows that I remained
5 opposed to it.
6 I've been opposed to it
7 throughout. And the question at the very
8 end was, would we take a chance in doing
9 it? And I decided no.
10 I guess he wasn't there when I
11 did.
12 Q. Right. So -- I'm sorry,
13 Mr. Giuliani.
14 A. I think this is a matter of
15 confusion rather than what you might make
16 of it, which is that he was misrepresenting
17 my position.
18 Q. And I think you've made very
19 clear in your January 6 testimony and here
20 today that you were opposed to this
21 strategic communications plan.
22 A. Right.
23 Q. So that's not really my question.
24 My question is, you were -- you
25 have testified that Mr. Kerik was wrong

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2 that you sent this plan along to the White
3 House or to Mr. Meadows?
4 A. Correct. I didn't -- I didn't --
5 I certainly didn't send it.
6 Now -- and Bernie wouldn't have
7 been the one to do it either. Would
8 somebody else played a game with it and
9 made it look like it was sent from my
10 office? That's possible.
11 But Mark knew my position on this
12 independently. So he knew that I thought
13 it wasn't worth spending the 5 to 8 million
14 dollars.
15 Q. I believe you testified before
16 the January 6 Commission that you were
17 aware that some members of the team or this
18 communications firm wanted to make a
19 presentation of this plan to the White
20 House, is that right?
21 A. Right. I let them do it.
22 Q. And you let them do it, is that
23 right?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. So you were aware ahead of time

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2 that they would make the presentation, you
3 were opposed to it, but you also didn't
4 stand in the way of it being presented?
5 A. 100 percent, and I knew it was
6 going to happen, but sometimes people don't
7 listen.
8 Q. And you were 100 percent certain
9 as you sit here today that you didn't send
10 this along but say, for example, to
11 Mr. Meadows, I'm opposed to this, but I'm
12 sending it to you because these other
13 people want to present it to the President?
14 A. I don't -- I doubt it. I doubt
15 it. I mean, it's always possible I
16 forgot -- no, I don't think so.
17 Q. Okay.
18 Are you aware that the same day
19 that Mr. Kerik sent this email to
20 Mr. Meadows, he tweeted out some of the
21 content of this document, the strategic
22 communications plan?
23 A. I don't -- I'm not sure if I am.
24 It sounds kind of familiar but not -- no,
25 I'm not aware of it, no.

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2 Q. Let's mark Exhibit 23.
3 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: That's
4 Tab 53 in Binder 2.
5 (Exhibit 23, Tweets from Bernie
6 Kerik, marked for identification, as of
7 this date.)
8 Q. So, Mayor Giuliani, I've handed
9 you what has been marked as Exhibit 23.
10 And this is a tweet -- the bottom part of
11 the screen is -- of the exhibit on the
12 first page is a tweet that Mr. Kerik has
13 sent out, and if you flip to the next page,
14 you can see the date and the time at the
15 bottom of the content of the tweet, which
16 is listed at --
17 A. This looks like the summary page
18 from their memo.
19 Q. Just so we have a clear record,
20 the time and date on the bottom of the
21 tweet says 3:57 p.m. on December 28, 2020.
22 Do you see that on the second
23 page, sir?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. And if we take now Exhibit 22,

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2 which is the version 1, Giuliani team
3 strategic communications plan, and if we
4 open it back up to the page that says
5 "Georgia" on the top, which is --
6 A. The same as that, right?
7 Q. Well, that's what I wanted to ask
8 you.
9 A. It looks the same.
10 Q. It looks like this is ten pages
11 into that document. It looks like
12 Mr. Kerik has tweeted out the content from
13 the strategic communications plan on the
14 same day as he sent it to Mr. Meadows, is
15 that right?
16 A. Well, actually, what he-- this is
17 not so much the communications plan as it
18 is the state of the case or of the evidence
19 in Georgia according to them.
20 I wouldn't say it's -- well, I
21 guess it's part of the communications plan
22 to put that out.
23 Q. This was a page of the supporting
24 documents --
25 A. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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2 uncomplicated --
3 MR. SIBLEY: Let him finish the
4 question.
5 A. -- I don't know what to believe.
6 MR. COSTELLO: Let him finish the
7 question.
8 Q. Do you believe, sitting here
9 today -- we will go one by one.
10 Do you believe, sitting here
11 today, that Attorney General Barr wanted
12 President Trump to lose the election?
13 A. I don't know what he wanted.
14 Q. Okay. Do you believe -- do you
15 have any reason to believe that the U.S.
16 Attorney for the Northern District of
17 Georgia wanted President Trump to lose the
18 election?
19 A. I don't have any basis to believe
20 one way or the other what he believed. I
21 do know what he did.
22 When we brought him allegations
23 that there were ballots being burned 15
24 miles outside of -- outside of Atlanta, he
25 took two days to send anybody there, and by

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2 that time, they were all burned, and we
3 have affidavits from ATF agents explaining
4 that and preserving some of those ballots.
5 So I don't know who he was
6 working for. It didn't seem to me like he
7 was working for the United States.
8 Q. Okay. But you are accusing them
9 in participating in a coverup of evidence
10 that, in your view, showed that
11 President Trump should have won the
12 election?
13 A. You are darn right I am.
14 Q. You believe Attorney
15 General Barr -- sorry, sir.
16 A. This would be a small part of the
17 coverup. The major part of the coverup was
18 having a hard drive delivered to you that
19 any law enforcement agent would have begun
20 investigating immediately instead of
21 sitting on it for two-and-a-half years, let
22 allegations swirl around that it's Russian
23 disinformation, get 51 so-called
24 intelligence agents to say it's Russian
25 disinformation when they had no knowledge

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2 at all, and then find out that that was all
3 a complete lie and that they knew it from
4 the very beginning.
5 Q. And so I understand it, sir, in
6 your view --
7 A. So you want me to take these
8 people seriously?
9 Q. So I understand it, sir, in your
10 view, were the elected --
11 A. It was a danger to my country.
12 Q. So I understand it, sir. If I
13 could finish my question.
14 A. Sure.
15 Q. The Republican election officials
16 in Georgia, the Governor, Secretary of
17 State, and those who work for him, were
18 also in on this plot to get Donald Trump to
19 lose the election?
20 A. I didn't say that. I didn't say
21 they were involved in this. They -- as far
22 as I know, they weren't involved with the
23 hard drive and with the allegations of
24 Russian agents and turning down witnesses
25 who had evidence. I can't say that.

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2 In fact, I don't think they were.
3 Q. Are you aware that in early
4 December, the Secretary of State in
5 Georgia, who is a Republican, Secretary
6 Raffensperger, and Governor Kemp, along
7 with other officials, held some press
8 conferences in which they discussed the
9 count in Georgia and the process that was
10 going on at the time?
11 MR. COSTELLO: That's 2020,
12 right?
13 Q. Sorry, in 2020.
14 A. Yes, sure, sure.
15 Q. I assume you followed some of
16 that since you were --
17 A. Of course I did.
18 Q. Let's mark this exhibit,
19 Exhibit 28.
20 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: Binder 1,
21 Tab 32.
22 (Exhibit 28, transcript of a
23 press briefing, marked for
24 identification, as of this date.)
25 Q. So you have been handed what has

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2 been marked as Exhibit 28, which is a
3 transcript of a press briefing held by
4 Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger in
5 Georgia on December 7, 2020.
6 And if you can turn to page 7 of
7 this document, do you see on page 7 --
8 well, actually, let me ask you this first.
9 Are you aware, do you know who
10 Gabriel Sterling is?
11 A. No, not offhand. Gabriel
12 Sterling?
13 Q. Gabe Sterling, Gabriel Sterling?
14 A. I don't think so.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. If you could help me a little,
17 maybe.
18 Q. If I told you that he worked for
19 Secretary Raffensperger and was regularly
20 giving briefings on the election --
21 A. I remember seeing him. I
22 remember the person who substituted for
23 him, yes.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. But I don't put a name to it.

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2 Q. Do you remember ever seeing
3 someone like that at a press conference
4 talking about what happened at State Farm
5 Arena and what happened on election night?
6 A. I think I -- yeah. I mean, I've
7 seen him giving press conferences. Whether
8 it was about that or about the conversation
9 or --
10 Q. Okay.
11 So on page 7, Mr. Sterling is
12 talking and briefing the press about the
13 goings on in the election, and if you see
14 at the very top, starting on line 2, he
15 says that Justin Gray from WSB spent hours
16 with us going over this video to explain to
17 people that what you saw, the secret
18 suitcases with magic ballots, were actually
19 ballots that had been packed into those
20 absentee ballot carriers by workers in the
21 plain view of the monitors and the press.
22 Do you see that?
23 A. Okay. I see that.
24 Q. Do you dispute the accuracy of
25 that?

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2 A. Pardon me?
3 Q. Do you dispute the accuracy of
4 Mr. Sterling's statement?
5 A. I would dispute the accuracy of
6 anyone from that office. Since they
7 never -- if that office wanted to -- didn't
8 have anything to hide, they would have
9 allowed a forensic audit of the paper
10 ballots that were at the core of the fraud
11 that they allowed to happen.
12 Q. Mr. Giuliani, you understand the
13 distinction between a lie and a motive to
14 lie, don't you?
15 A. Sure.
16 Q. So I'm not asking about the
17 office's motive. I'm asking about the
18 simple truth or falsity of the factual
19 statement that Mr. Sterling has made here.
20 And the factual statement that he
21 has made here is that the ballots that were
22 alleged to have been secret in the
23 suitcases or pulled out surreptitiously
24 were actually ballots that had been packed
25 into absentee ballot carriers by the

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2 workers in the plain view of the monitors
3 and the press.
4 A. I never saw that.
5 Q. Well, my question to you is, do
6 you dispute the accuracy of that assertion?
7 A. I have -- I'm not going to accept
8 the accuracy of that statement given the
9 source.
10 Q. Do you have any reason, apart
11 from your distrust of the source, to
12 believe that it is not accurate that the
13 ballot carriers that were underneath the
14 table at State Farm Arena on that night
15 were packed in plain view of the monitors
16 and the press?
17 A. Yes, I have a lot of reasons to
18 disbelieve that.
19 Q. Such as?
20 A. Well, such as if they did, where
21 is the video of it? If they did, where are
22 the witnesses who will say that? If they
23 did, why didn't they also release the
24 document they were hiding about the
25 discrepancies in the election that they had

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2 been hiding for two months that had to be
3 pulled out of their office? If they -- if
4 they did have such concern about the
5 accuracy of the election, why wouldn't they
6 allow an examination of the key evidence,
7 which would have been the phony ballots?
8 All those things say to me that
9 you cannot believe or give any credit to
10 what they're saying because, you know, once
11 you lie, you got to continue to lie to
12 cover it up.
13 Q. That is a tricky problem indeed.
14 If I were to show you video of
15 the ballot boxes being packed up in the
16 plain view of the monitors and the press,
17 would that change your view?
18 A. Sure. It would change my view if
19 I saw that. It wouldn't change my view of
20 the whole situation. The allegation isn't
21 how they were packed up, the allegation is
22 that they were counted and the public
23 wasn't present, which is illegal.
24 Q. We are going to -- we will come
25 back to that before the end of the day.

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2 A. There would be nothing -- there
3 would be nothing wrong or right about this.
4 This would be kind of like six of one, half
5 dozen of the other.
6 Q. I believe that you have, in fact,
7 alleged that there was a problem with where
8 these ballots came from, that they were --
9 I think that you have alleged they were
10 sitting under this table for hours, they
11 were brought in improperly, and they were
12 pulled out when no one was around to see
13 it. Is that right?
14 A. I think my -- what I said was
15 they were brought in -- if I said that, it
16 would have been very early because I
17 quickly saw the video. I saw them brought
18 in about 11 o'clock in the morning. I saw
19 them put under the table. I saw the black
20 blanket put over it. So it covered all of
21 the boxes, and then everything proceeded
22 for the rest of the day without any
23 reference to that area or anything else
24 done there.
25 And that area wasn't approached

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2 again until the public was eliminated,
3 weren't there, and the only people there
4 were the five people that we identified
5 earlier, and if you watch their -- the rest
6 of it then can become interpretation, but
7 if you watch their actions, their actions
8 appear like very, very suspicious people in
9 the way they are doing it and pulling it
10 out and -- but in any event, the minute
11 they start counting without the public
12 there, those votes are invalid.
13 That's -- that's the critical
14 part of it. I don't recall alleging where
15 they came from. By that time, where they
16 came from was somebody walked in at 11
17 o'clock and put them under a table.
18 Q. Let's take a look at the tape.
19 So we are going to look at some
20 clips from the State Farm video, and why
21 don't we start with the morning clip.
22 This will be Exhibit 29.
23 (Exhibit 29, video clip, marked
24 for identification, as of this date.)
25 Q. We have got a few clips from

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2 again at the bottom?
3 A. I see we have now moved ahead to
4 9:57.
5 Q. We have got the same -- that same
6 camera angle showing at the top of the
7 screen where you see the table there that
8 we saw Ms. Moss move into that location
9 around 8:20 in the morning?
10 A. Yeah, yeah. It --
11 MR. COSTELLO: Which picture are
12 you referring to, top or bottom?
13 Q. The top angle is the angle we
14 were looking at previously, and do you
15 see --
16 A. The bottom angle is a new angle.
17 It's a little confusing.
18 Q. That is correct. So, remember,
19 there are four cameras --
20 A. That's why they look different.
21 If you look at it, they look --
22 Q. Yeah. There are four camera
23 angles from the State Farm video, and we
24 can -- the software program in which this
25 was produced allows you to toggle between

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2 one screen or four screens.
3 A. So we are looking at the two
4 extreme ends.
5 Q. And now we are looking at two
6 screens, and why don't we press "Play" and
7 we can watch this video.
8 (Video playing.)
9 Q. And you see in the back of the
10 room on the bottom screen, Mr. Giuliani, do
11 you see the observers and the press in that
12 back corner?
13 A. I do. I do see them.
14 Q. And do you see now on the top
15 screen these ballot boxes that are to the
16 side of the table, of the black table that
17 Ms. Moss moved previously?
18 Do you see crates there that are
19 being moved by the black table?
20 A. By -- moved by the table?
21 MR. COSTELLO: You are talking
22 about here?
23 A. Oh, I'm sorry, I was looking down
24 there.
25 Q. On the top screen, do you see

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2 some crates there?
3 A. Yes, I see they're moving crates
4 and putting ballots in.
5 Q. Does it look like those boxes are
6 being packed up?
7 A. It looks like they are putting
8 ballots in or putting papers in.
9 Q. And you see observers and press
10 are still back there in the back of the
11 room?
12 MR. COSTELLO: Can I just ask
13 you, when you say, "Do you see," just
14 point to which one of these two views.
15 Q. Very good point.
16 On the bottom screen, do you see
17 the observers and press in the back of the
18 room?
19 A. I see observers way far away who
20 couldn't possibly have any understanding of
21 what was going on.
22 Q. You haven't talked to them, have
23 you, sir?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So you don't know what

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2 understanding they may or may not have had
3 about these events, right?
4 A. I have talked to people there who
5 said they couldn't see a damn thing. I
6 even have seen affidavits that say that.
7 Q. Who did you talk to that was
8 there at 10 p.m.?
9 A. One of the affidavits you showed
10 me --
11 Q. Those are different points, sir.
12 So --
13 A. -- said that they couldn't see
14 anything from that area.
15 Q. Did you talk to anyone --
16 A. I talked to many people who said
17 that.
18 Q. Such as?
19 A. I don't -- I don't -- whoever was
20 there. Whoever would talk to me. There
21 were constant complaints about that.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. And it's almost obvious you can't
24 see anything.
25 Q. All right. We can press "Play."

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2 (Videotape playing.)
3 Q. So you see -- in that clip, we
4 saw the boxes that were put underneath that
5 table being packed up, and they were being
6 packed up with ballots at around 10 p.m.,
7 is that right?
8 A. Correct. It looked like two
9 crates were put under there. Was it two or
10 one?
11 Q. We can go back and --
12 A. Let's go back for a minute.
14 MR. COSTELLO: Which one are we
15 focused on, top or bottom?
16 Q. Top screen will show you the
17 crates and the table.
18 MR. COSTELLO: Talking about
19 here?
20 MR. GOTTLIEB: You can press
21 "Play," Maggie. We will look at it
22 again.
24 Q. So the point being, it's 10 p.m.,
25 and the crates with the ballots in them are

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2 being packed up and put under the table.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. And let's go back to where you
5 can see them again.
6 Do you see Post-It notes on top
7 of those crates? Or something that appears
8 to be a Post-It note -- a Post-It note-like
9 object?
10 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: We can
11 enlarge the top view, if you want.
12 MR. GOTTLIEB: Let's enlarge the
13 top view.
14 A. I see two different -- a smaller
15 note and a larger note.
16 Q. So there are two sort of labels
17 of some kind there --
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. -- that have writing and we can't
20 see --
21 A. We can't see the writing.
22 Q. We can't see what it is.
23 Why don't we press "Play" on the
24 large view here.

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2 Q. So these crates, they have
3 ballots in them. They are packed up around
4 10 p.m. and put underneath this table, is
5 that right?
6 A. That's what it shows, yes.
7 Q. And at this time, the press and
8 observers -- I understand you say that you
9 don't think they were able to see anything
10 or perceive anything, but they are
11 physically in the room, is that right?
12 They haven't been kicked out?
13 A. Whatever that is worth, they are
14 physically in the room, yeah.
15 Q. So these ballots were not hidden
16 under this table in the morning, is that
17 right?
18 Whatever ballots were in those
19 boxes that you now see on that table --
20 A. Yeah, sure, they were hidden. I
21 mean, unless you happen to be there, if you
22 walk in later, you are going to have no
23 idea that there were ballots there.
24 Exactly why they were put under a table
25 with a -- it looks like a casket.

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2 "those people," are you referring to
3 the people depicted here?
4 MR. GOTTLIEB: I'm talking about
5 the people that Mr. Giuliani observed,
6 I think --
7 A. You said they were packing up.
8 MR. GOTTLIEB: -- astutely
9 observed were not packing up at 11
10 o'clock but, in fact, were still
11 working.
12 Q. And my question is, do you have a
13 recollection in reviewing this video, which
14 I know you have, at any point between
15 10 o'clock, when we saw the table being --
16 the ballots being packed up and put on the
17 table at 11 o'clock of these people in the
18 back row --
19 A. I can't remember.
20 Q. -- who you observed were still
21 working, packing up their stuff and
22 leaving?
23 A. I can't remember.
24 Q. Is it possible they were sitting
25 there the whole time between 10 and 11

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2 working?
3 A. Well, since I can't remember what
4 they were doing, it's possible, yes.
5 Q. As you sit here today, you don't
6 know one way or the other?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Now we can press "Play."
10 Q. Now, this section here of
11 11 o'clock with people taking ballots out,
12 is this the section of the video that sort
13 of begins the section that you and Ms. Pick
14 focused on in early December of people
15 moving suitcases of ballots out from under
16 tables?
17 A. It's part of it.
18 Q. And are these black objects that
19 have a handle and some labels that the
20 gentleman in red is carrying, are those the
21 objects that you and Miss Pick referred to
22 as "suitcases" in early December?
23 A. Pardon me?
24 Q. You see that the gentleman in the
25 red shirt has got a box there and it's got

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1 Giuliani
2 a handle, he's carrying it?
3 A. I can see him, yeah.
4 Q. Is that one of the objects that
5 you and Ms. Pick referred to in early
6 December as a "suitcase"?
7 A. I believe so.
8 Q. And as you think about it sitting
9 back here today, as you -- as you think
10 about the allegation that there were
11 suitcases full of ballots pulled out from
12 underneath the table, am I right that these
13 are the objects that were being referred to
14 as the "suitcases" -- that you all were
15 referring to as "suitcases"?
16 A. Well, that's one, that's one of
17 them.
18 Q. Fair enough. Let's finish
19 playing this.
20 (Videotape playing).
21 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: That is the
22 end of this clip.
23 Q. Okay. That is the end of this
24 clip.
25 You were aware of Mr. Sterling's

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1 Giuliani
2 press conference and this press conference
3 with Governor Kemp at the time,
4 Mr. Giuliani, were you not?
5 A. Which one now? Because there
6 were --
7 Q. The Exhibit 28, the transcript we
8 were looking at, this press conference with
9 Secretary --
10 A. What was it in reference to? Was
11 it answering some question or other. Was
12 this about the presidential call?
13 Q. Sorry. This is the press
14 conference on December 7, 2020 where
15 Mr. Sterling -- I was reading from before
16 where Mr. Sterling was giving an
17 explanation of what happened.
18 A. So this was a press conference to
19 explain the --
20 Q. What happened on the video.
21 A. Got you. Okay.
22 Q. And you were aware of this press
23 conference when it happened, were you not?
24 A. I was aware of it. I can't say
25 for sure I was aware of it when it happened

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1 Giuliani
2 and watched it live, but I did watch it.
3 Q. Do you recall tweeting about this
4 press conference --
5 A. I don't.
6 Q. -- the day after?
7 A. I may have, but I don't.
8 Q. Why don't I just show you quickly
9 one of those tweets.
10 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: It's Binder
11 1, Tab 38.
12 MR. GOTTLIEB: No, that's 34.
13 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: And it will
14 be 34.
15 (Exhibit 34, tweet, marked for
17 Q. You will be handed what has been
18 marked as Exhibit 34.
19 This is a tweet that you sent on
20 December 8, 2020, at 9:49 p.m.
21 December 8 is the day after the
22 December 7 press conference that we were
23 reading from the transcript from before.
24 And you say here in your tweet,
25 "The Georgia video proves now and for

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1 Giuliani
2 posterity that crooked Democrat officials
3 stole the votes to try to win the state and
4 Republicans are covering up for them."
5 Are you referring to the
6 statements by Mr. Sterling and
7 Mr. Raffensperger in this tweet here?
8 A. I -- I'm sort of referring to
9 that and to them in general, yeah.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Their actions in general.
12 Q. Let me show you --
13 A. Remember, it was the Governor who
14 made the deal with Stacey Abrams to allow
15 all of this illegal voting with no basis in
16 legislation.
17 Q. That's Governor Kemp?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. I'll ask you the same question
20 that I asked about the Attorney General, do
21 you believe Governor Kemp wanted Joe Biden
22 to win the election?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. You do?
25 A. I think he hates Donald Trump.

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1 Giuliani
2 Q. And you believe that his
3 Secretary of State also wanted --
4 A. That, I don't know. That, I
5 don't know.
6 Q. -- Joe Biden to win the election?
7 A. I don't know the Secretary of
8 State or his motives as well, but I do know
9 his actions were very corrupt.
10 (Exhibit 35, declaration of
11 Frances Watson, marked for
13 Q. We will mark -- and this is
14 Volume 1, Tab 24. This will be Exhibit 35.
15 So are you familiar with some
16 litigation that was going on in Georgia by
17 the name of Pearson versus Kemp?
18 A. I don't think so.
19 Q. Do you know who CJ Pearson is?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Who is CJ Pearson?
22 A. Pardon me?
23 Q. Who is CJ Pearson?
24 A. She's an activist.
25 Q. An activist.

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1 Giuliani
2 So were you aware that CJ Pearson
3 filed a lawsuit in Georgia against
4 Governor Kemp relating to the 2020
5 election?
6 A. I can't say that I -- it's a
7 stupid answer. I can't say that I am or
8 not. It just doesn't --
9 Q. So this --
10 A. -- her bringing a lawsuit just
11 doesn't click in my head.
12 Q. Understood.
13 You were working with Sidney
14 Powell by December 6, 2020, is that right?
15 A. I may have fired her by then --
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. -- for the first time.
18 Q. All right. Well, in any event,
19 let's take a look at this declaration.
20 This is a declaration by a Frances Watson
21 that was submitted in this Pearson versus
22 Kemp litigation on December 6, 2020, that
23 looks like it is actually executed on the
24 5th of December 2020.
25 Do you know who Frances Watson

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1 Giuliani
2 is?
3 A. Sure rings a bell, but you are
4 going to have to fill in a little for me.
5 Q. Well, if you see in paragraph 2
6 of this declaration, Ms. Watson says, "I am
7 the Chief Investigator in the Office of the
8 Georgia Secretary of State" --
9 A. Yeah, that's probably how I know
10 the name. I don't know her though.
11 Q. So in this affidavit, which is
12 also sworn under penalty of perjury,
13 Ms. Watson, if you look at paragraph 6,
14 says, "My investigators have interviewed
15 witnesses and security footage of State
16 Farm Arena between November 3 and November
17 4. Our investigation discovered that
18 observers and media were not asked to
19 leave. They simply left on their own when
20 they saw one group of workers whose job was
21 only to open envelopes and who had
22 completed that task also leave."
23 Do you see that?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. Had you ever seen or heard any

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1 Giuliani
2 A. It sure doesn't look like it,
3 yes.
4 Q. Okay. Who would we ask to find
5 the video that you believe you saw?
6 I should probably rephrase that
7 so you are not giving me advice.
8 Who could we ask to find the
9 video that you believe you saw?
10 A. Well, we can start with the
11 lawyers there. I would -- I would -- I
12 mean, I usually start these searches with
13 either Christina Bobb or Colonel Waldron.
14 They have got the -- they have
15 got the sort of -- even though they aren't
16 involved in everything, they have the best
17 overview of where everything is.
18 Smith.
19 Q. Sorry, Smith is who?
20 A. What?
21 MR. COSTELLO: The first name of
22 Smith.
23 A. No, the lawyer.
24 Q. The local counsel in Georgia --
25 A. Yeah, local counsel.

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1 Giuliani
2 Q. -- Mr. Smith?
3 A. Now, I'm not -- he was more
4 involved in the other.
5 Q. Have you -- in -- since receiving
6 discovery requests in this litigation, have
7 you searched through or had any kind of a
8 forensic search done of your email accounts
9 or hard drives to locate things like this
10 video?
11 MR. SIBLEY: Hang on, locate
12 what?
13 A. Things like this video.
14 I mean, we have gone through the
15 whole thing with Trustpoint and with the
16 U.S. Attorney's Office. Didn't come up
17 with this.
18 Q. Okay. So there was a production
19 made to the U.S. Attorney's Office --
20 A. Of everything.
21 Q. -- previously.
22 Apart from that, have you done
23 any searching of devices to --
24 A. Yeah. We have done individual --
25 I would have to go back and look at --

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1 Giuliani
2 yeah, we have done sporadic searches either
3 when asked to produce something or when we
4 needed to answer a question.
5 So we could try something like
6 that, I guess.
7 Q. Did you get your devices back
8 from the government?
9 A. I did.
10 Q. And since getting those devices
11 returned to you, have you done forensic
12 searches of those devices for the
13 purpose --
14 A. Yeah. They were pretty much
15 wiped out.
16 Q. So let me just make sure I
17 understand your answer.
18 Have you had a forensic -- have
19 you had a forensic evaluation done of those
20 devices since they were returned to you by
21 the U.S. Government?
22 A. Through the iCloud.
23 Q. So the answer is, Yes -- so who
24 performed that search through the cloud?
25 MR. COSTELLO: I -- can we go off

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1 Giuliani
2 the record for a second?
3 I think your question is
4 inarticulate, but only because you
5 don't know the facts.
6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time on
7 the video monitor is 6:11 p.m. We are
8 off the record.
9 (Discussion off the record.)
10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the
11 video record. The time on the video
12 monitor is 6:12 p.m.
13 BY MR. GOTTLIEB:
14 Q. Mr. Giuliani, do I understand
15 correctly that the steps that have been
16 taken to preserve and produce documents in
17 this case are steps that have been taken by
18 a third-party provider?
19 A. Yes. As Bob described, yeah.
20 Q. And that third-party provider is
21 called Trustpoint?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. And apart from what Trustpoint
24 has done, do I understand correctly that
25 you have not yourself gone back through

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1 Giuliani
2 devices or accounts to search for
3 documents?
4 A. Sure, I have, but it hasn't
5 helped because what they gave back to me
6 seems to be wiped out. I can't get
7 anything -- I can't get anything off it.
8 Maybe if I had someone with more
9 expertise, I could. But it doesn't seem
10 that it's -- it was much easier to do it
11 the other way.
12 Q. Have you provided your physical
13 devices to either your attorney or to
14 Trustpoint to perform searches?
15 A. I don't think so, no.
16 Q. So you know, we -- well, you may
17 know, you may not. I'll ask you.
18 We have agreed in correspondence
19 with Mr. Sibley that we will be holding
20 this deposition open based on documents
21 that haven't been produced such that if
22 there are further documents produced to us
23 from searches, that we would reserve the
24 right --
25 A. Talk a little bit louder.

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1 Giuliani
2 Q. If there are further documents
3 that would be produced after searches, we
4 would reserve the right to recall you to be
5 able to ask you questions about those
6 documents.
7 Do you understand that we have
8 reached that agreement with Mr. Sibley?
9 A. I do.
10 MR. SIBLEY: Objection to form.
11 Q. And last sort of cleanup point on
12 this, I noticed throughout this deposition,
13 you have done some drawing and written some
14 things down. I'm not really interested in
15 seeing -- not really interested in seeing
16 them because I understand you are just kind
17 of doodling.
18 A. Yeah, Russia, boxes, things I
19 have to do.
20 Q. Fair enough.
21 Here is my question for you
22 though, as you sit in meetings, do you
23 typically take notes?
24 A. Not always. Sometimes I do.
25 Sometimes I don't.

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1 Giuliani
2 Q. Do you have anywhere saved
3 handwritten notes or lying around an office
4 somewhere, are there legal pads or other
5 books in which you might have taken notes
6 on any of the work that you did relating to
7 the 2020 election?
8 MR. SIBLEY: Objection.
9 A. Whatever we've -- I've turned
10 those over, whatever I have on this.
11 I took very -- I didn't have time
12 to take many notes in this particular
13 situation. It wasn't like a -- and other
14 people took the notes.
15 Q. Okay. I understand that may be
16 the case.
17 At some point in time, did you
18 search your files to look for notes that
19 you may have taken about meetings in the
20 November to December 2020 time period?
21 A. Sure.
22 Q. And is it your testimony that
23 what you found relating to the 2020
24 election was turned over to the U.S.
25 Attorney's Office?

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1 Giuliani
2 A. I believe so.
3 Q. Okay.
4 And I gather when you said you
5 weren't the one taking notes, that other
6 people on your team would sometimes be
7 taking notes of meetings that you would be
8 in when you were not taking notes?
9 A. Yeah, during this period,
10 particularly, because I was so busy, that
11 was much more prevalent, although even they
12 weren't taking copious notes.
13 Q. Okay. Some people took notes
14 sometimes? Some people didn't take notes?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. But would you expect that in the
17 November to December 2020 time period,
18 covering all of the different meetings you
19 had, all of the different work you were
20 doing, that during that period of time,
21 that some members of your team did take
22 handwritten notes?
23 A. Sure.
24 Q. Okay.
25 We talked a little bit before

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1 Giuliani
2 CERTIFICATE
3 STATE OF NEW JERSEY )
)ss:
4 COUNTY OF UNION )
5 I, MARY F. BOWMAN, a Registered
6 Professional Reporter, Certified
7 Realtime Reporter, and Notary Public
8 within and for the State of New Jersey,
9 do hereby certify:
10 That RUDOLPH W. GIULIANI, the
11 witness whose deposition is
12 hereinbefore set forth, was duly sworn
13 by me and that such deposition is a
14 true record of the testimony given by
15 such witness.
16 I further certify that I am not
17 related to any of the parties to this
18 action by blood or marriage and that I
19 am in no way interested in the outcome
20 of this matter.
21 In witness whereof, I have
22 hereunto set my hand this 2nd day of
23 March, 2023.
24
25 <%9329,Signature%>
MARY F. BOWMAN, RPR, CRR

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EXHIBIT 5
Page 1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2
3 Civil Action No. 21-3354 (BAH)
4 RUBY FREEMAN, et al.,
5 Plaintiffs,
6 vs.
7 RUDOLPH W. GIULIANI,
8
Defendant.
9 ________________________________/
10 401 East Las Olas Boulevard
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
11 May 16, 2023
12:32 p.m. - 4:23 p.m.
12
13
14 VIDEO DEPOSITION OF CHRISTINA BOBB
15
16 Taken before SUZANNE VITALE, R.P.R., F.P.R.
17 and Notary Public for the State of Florida at Large,
18 pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition filed in the
19 above cause.
20
21
22
23
24
25

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Page 2
1 APPEARANCES:
2
On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3
LAURO & SINGER
4 400 North Tampa Street
15th Floor
5 Tampa, Florida 33602
BY: GREG SINGER, ESQ.
6 BY: JOHN LAURO, ESQ. (viz Zoom)
BY: FILZAH PAVALON, ESQ. (via Zoom)
7 gsinger@laurosinger.com
8
On behalf of Defendant:
9
UNITED TO PROTECT DEMOCRACY
10 555 West 5th Street
35th Floor
11 Los Angeles, California 90013
BY: CHRISTINE KWON, ESQ.
12 christine.kwon@protectdemocracy.org
13 and
1875 K Street, Northwest
15 Washington, DC 20006-1238
BY: MAGGIE MACCURDY
16 mmacurdy@willkie.com
17 and
787 Seventh Avenue,
19 New York, New York 10019
BY: MERYL GOVERNSKI, ESQ.
20 mgovernski@willkie.com
21
22 ALSO PRESENT:
Sara Stout (Videographer)
23 Suzanne Vitale (Court Stenographer)
24
25

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Page 37
1 A. Maria's son.
2 Q. Did he have a role on the Giuliani legal
3 team?
4 A. Yes. He would help Maria out and he did,
5 like, the technical, like printing and like -- I
6 mean, I don't want to diminish his role, but I think
7 of him as a printer. Like if we needed something
8 printed, he would print it and help you do that.
9 Q. He assisted Ms. Ryan with the admin work
10 she did?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Do you know who John Eastman is?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did he have a role on the Giuliani legal
15 team?
16 A. Yes. He obviously was an expert brought
17 in for consultation and he consulted with the mayor.
18 Q. An expert?
19 A. Yes, he's a constitutional law scholar.
20 Q. What was your relationship with
21 Mr. Eastman?
22 A. I did not know him. I got to know him a
23 little bit at that time, but certainly he was
24 working directly with Rudy. He did not need to go
25 through me.

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1 Q. Did you communicate with Mr. Eastman

2 often?
3 A. Not often but occasionally.
4 Q. What about did you communicate with
5 Mr. Eastman?
6 A. Whatever -- I mean, I don't have a
7 specific recollection. But if we were working on
8 something or if -- I was probably just there if he
9 needed something, but I didn't have extensive
10 communication with him.
11 Q. Do you know who Ray Smith is?
12 A. Yes. He was local counsel in Georgia.
13 Q. So was he on the Giuliani legal team?
14 A. I would say he was local counsel. I mean,
15 it depends on how you're defining the Rudy Giuliani
16 legal team.
17 I define the Rudy Giuliani legal team as
18 the people who were at the RNC headquarters. The
19 people you're talking about are obviously -- yes,
20 they're part of the legal team but I wouldn't
21 necessarily put them under the umbrella. But, you
22 know, it depends on how you're defining it all.
23 Q. Ray Smith was local counsel in Georgia.
24 Who was part of the Georgia Giuliani legal
25 team?

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1 A. I don't know. I didn't work on Georgia.

2 Q. To clarify, when I ask you about the
3 Giuliani legal team, I'm asking how you use the term
4 in your book referring back to page 6.
5 A. Yeah, in the book -- I describe it in the
6 book and I go through -- the book is talking about
7 the events at the RNC office. And that's how I'm
8 referring to it in the book. I talk about the RNC
9 headquarters and the discussions at the RNC
10 headquarters. But that's a very narrow portion of
11 three pages of the book, so it certainly can be
12 defined more than one way.
13 Q. You testified that if you needed to reach
14 Mr. Giuliani directly, you could.
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Did you serve as an intermediary for
17 communications to Mr. Giuliani?
18 A. Sometimes. Mostly via e-mail. People
19 sent me stuff, a law that they wanted to get to him.
20 Because I was in D.C. so that's why I have e-mails
21 from Ray Smith even though I didn't work on Georgia.
22 I was physically in D.C. and could get him physical
23 copies.
24 Q. Because you were physically in D.C. and
25 could get him physical copies of e-mails is why you

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Page 40
1 served as an intermediary for communications to

2 Mr. Giuliani?
3 A. That's what you're saying. That's not
4 what I'm saying.
5 I'm saying I was physically present in
6 Washington, D.C. Ray Smith was not. So if Ray
7 Smith wanted to know if Rudy had seen a complaint or
8 whatever, he would send it to me and I would send it
9 to the mayor. And if I was with the mayor, then Ray
10 Smith would know that the mayor had seen it. So
11 people would send me -- my understanding is that's
12 why Ray Smith was sending me all of these e-mails,
13 was because he wanted to make sure that the mayor
14 saw them and I was physically there. He was not.
15 He was in Georgia.
16 Q. When you say Mr. Smith would send things
17 to you for you to send to Mr. Giuliani, through what
18 means?
19 A. E-mail. That's why you have the e-mails
20 from Ray Smith. So I could say, Mr. Mayor, Ray
21 Smith has sent you an e-mail with the complaint in
22 it. Have you seen it? Because he knows that I
23 would do that.
24 Q. Couldn't Mr. Smith e-mail Mr. Giuliani
25 directly?

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1 A. He could. But Rudy is getting like 10,000

2 e-mails a day. He wanted to make sure that I would
3 point it out to Rudy and say, hey, there is an
4 e-mail in your inbox with a complaint or something,
5 whatever the document is.
6 Q. Did you serve as an intermediary for
7 communications to other Giuliani team members?
8 A. I don't know -- I don't know what you're
9 referring to.
10 Q. Would people go through you to communicate
11 to other Giuliani team members?
12 A. Possibly. I know Ray Smith did a lot.
13 I'm trying to think off the top of my head.
14 I mean, I don't know. Like, I was not
15 designated, like, the intermediary but I was very
16 reliable and I would respond and people wanted to
17 know -- wanted to get a response to know -- even if
18 the answer was no, he hasn't looked at it, they
19 wanted to know. And I'm responsive, so that's why I
20 got all of the e-mails that I received even though I
21 didn't work on Georgia.
22 Q. We're turning to page 6 of your book.
23 When you write that your role was focused
24 on coordinating the litigation efforts in Arizona,
25 Michigan and New Mexico, what do you mean by

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1 "coordinating"?
2 A. I worked with the local counsel there and
3 relayed what the intent was for litigation. I was
4 kind of like in-house counsel communicating with
5 local counsel.
6 Q. So you were communicating with local
7 counsel in those states.
8 What else did you do in coordinating?
9 MR. SINGER: I'm going to object to this.
10 It's outside the scope of the Court's order.
11 Her activities in states other than Georgia
12 don't pertain to the allegations in other
13 states.
14 MS. KWON: Are you directing Ms. Bobb not
15 to answer?
16 MR. SINGER: Yes, you don't need to answer
17 that.
18 BY MS. KWON:
19 Q. Will you be following your counsel's
20 instruction?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You previously testified before the House
23 Select Committee to investigate the January 6th
24 attack on the United States Capitol?
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. You testified before that committee on

2 April 21, 2022?
3 A. I mean, I don't know the exact date but
4 that's probably right.
5 Q. You testified truthfully before that
6 committee?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Are you aware that your testimony was
9 transcribed?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Are you aware that because you were
12 speaking with the congressional committee, you could
13 have been subject to consequences under the Federal
14 Perjury Statute 18 U.S. Code Section 1001 if you had
15 lied?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Have you reviewed that transcript?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that the
20 transcript accurately reflects your testimony?
21 A. I didn't review it. I don't know. I
22 didn't lie. But if you want to ask me a specific
23 question about it, I can tell you.
24 MS. KWON: Let's get Tab 38, which we will
25 mark as Exhibit 2.

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1 (Thereupon, the referred-to document was

2 marked for Identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit 2.)
3 BY MS. KWON:
4 Q. The court reporter is handing you what has
5 been marked as Exhibit 2, which is a transcript
6 of -- a printout of the transcript of your interview
7 with the January 6th committee. I'll represent to
8 you that this is a document that was certified by
9 the government publishing office, and I will suggest
10 we take a break so you have time to review it.
11 A. You're asking me to read --
12 MR. LAURO: You want her to review the
13 entire transcript?
14 MS. KWON: To review it for accuracy.
15 MR. LAURO: She's not going to review the
16 entire transcript. We'll postpone the
17 deposition if you want to do that.
18 If you want to direct her to a particular
19 question or a particular issue, that's fine.
20 But the entire transcript is not relevant to
21 this deposition.
22 BY MS. KWON:
23 Q. Let's stay on the record and I will direct
24 you to specific portions of the transcript and you
25 can assess them.

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Excerpted
Page 159
1
2 CERTIFICATE
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA )
5 COUNTY OF BROWARD )
6
7 I, SUZANNE VITALE, R.P.R., F.P.R., do
8 hereby certify that I was authorized to and did
9 stenographically report the foregoing deposition
10 of CHRISTINA BOBB; that a review of the
11 transcript was requested; and that the transcript
12 is a true record of my stenographic notes.
13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a
14 relative, employee, attorney, or counsel of any
15 of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee
16 of any of the parties' attorney or counsel
17 connected with the action, nor am I financially
18 interested in the action.
19 Dated this 22nd day of May, 2023.
20
<%3249,Signature%>
21
SUZANNE VITALE, R.P.R., F.P.R.
22 My Commission No. DD179981
Expires: 5/24/2024
23
24
25

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EXHIBIT 6
Page 1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
RUBY FREEMAN, et al., :
4 :
Plaintiffs, :
5 :
v. : Civil Action No.
6 : 21-3354 (BAH)
RUDOLPH W. GIULIANI, :
7 :
Defendant. :
8 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
9
10
11
12 - - -
13 Monday, March 20, 2023
14 - - -
15
16
17
18
19 Videotaped deposition of BERNARD KERIK, beginning at
20 10:51 a.m., before Christina S. Hotsko, RPR, CRR,
21 when were present on behalf of the respective
22 parties:

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Via Zoom)
2 On behalf of Plaintiffs:
M. ANNIE HOUGHTON-LARSEN, ESQUIRE
3 Willkie Farr & Gallagher, LLP
787 Seventh Avenue
4 New York, New York 10019-6099
(212) 728-8000
5 mhoughton-larsen@willkie.com
6 MICHAEL GOTTLIEB, ESQUIRE
MAGGIE MacCURDY, ESQUIRE
7 Willkie Farr & Gallagher, LLP
1875 K Street, Northwest
8 Washington, D.C. 20006-1238
(202) 303-1000
9 mgottlieb@willkie.com
10
On behalf of Witness:
11 TIMOTHY C. PARLATORE, ESQUIRE
Parlatore Law Group
12 One World Trade Center, Suite 8500
New York, New York 10007
13 (212) 603-9918
timothy.parlatore@parlatorelawgroup.com
14
15 Also Present:
Glen Fortner, Video Technician
16
17
18
19
20
21
22

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1 He said, are you guys good? You know, he was very
2 nice, very cordial. And he came up to me and
3 he -- he walked up to me, and he went like this.
4 He went, you got your vest on? I said, yes, sir.
5 He says, good. He says, you got to wear a vest.
6 And he says, you know what? Guys, go
7 downstairs -- there was a coffee shop in, like --
8 in the Tower. He said, go downstairs and grab
9 some coffee and tell them I sent you downstairs.
10 And -- looking back, it's funny now
11 because everybody was shit scared; they're, like,
12 I ain't going down there, no way.
13 That's the first time I ever saw him.
14 And that had to be, like, 1987, maybe or
15 something. So -- and then I got to meet him
16 several times after, so I've known him a long
17 time.
18 So back to your question, I was a big
19 supporter of his for the election. I was in
20 Washington, D.C. the night of the election, on
21 November 3rd. I stayed in D.C. until the 4th.
22 And, you know -- I don't remember exactly. I

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1 either left the night of the 4th or the morning of
2 the 5th. I went home. And just about the time I
3 walked in the door, Mayor Giuliani called me, said
4 that he had spoken with the president and that he
5 wanted me to come back and assist him; he was
6 going to be looking at the investig- -- at the
7 election.
8 And I packed up some clothes, I got back
9 in my truck, and I drove back to D.C.
10 Q. And so when you say, Mayor Giuliani
11 called me and said that he had spoken with the
12 president and he wanted me to come back, was that
13 Mayor Giuliani wanted you to come back or
14 President Trump wanted you to come back?
15 A. No, the mayor.
16 Q. The mayor wanted you to come back.
17 Why do you think he reached out to you?
18 A. He probably knew I could be helpful.
19 Q. Okay. In what way?
20 A. Look, I've worked with him and for him
21 for a long time, whether it's investigative work,
22 whether it's consulting work, you know, I've --

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1 you know, and we're friends on top of it. You
2 know, he probably thought I could help.
3 Q. You guys are still friends, yeah?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. How is he as a boss?
6 A. He's usually great.
7 Q. Is he hands on?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Yeah.
10 A. Very hands on.
11 Q. Very hands on. Okay.
12 So Mayor Giuliani called you around the
13 5th and -- to ask you to assist. You said yes,
14 came back down?
15 What then became -- or what was your
16 role. Right? Like, you come down, you get to
17 wherever you all are working, and then you're,
18 like, okay, what am I doing now? How --
19 A. I think I got there in -- I want to say
20 it was the 5th. So I got there in the morning,
21 spoke to him when I arrived. We were -- he was
22 staying at the Mandarin Oriental Hotel. And I

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1 checked in. I either saw him or spoke to him, and
2 he was going to the campaign headquarters. And I
3 told him I would meet him over there. And that's
4 where they were going to work out of, campaign
5 headquarters. So that's where I went.
6 Q. Where were the campaign headquarters at
7 that time?
8 A. Arlington, Virginia. The Arlington
9 Tower.
10 Q. Okay. And for most of your time doing
11 this investigation, were you working there in
12 Arlington or were you working at the Mandarin?
13 Or...
14 A. No. First it was Arlington Tower. Then
15 -- I forget who, somebody got COVID, and they
16 threw us out of the campaign headquarters and said
17 nobody can come in here. Somebody in the campaign
18 got COVID. It was right before Andrew Giuliani
19 got COVID. It was sometime before that.
20 And then we left the Tower, we left the
21 campaign headquarters, and we started working out
22 of the hotel. And the hotel was the Mandarin.

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1 Q. The Mandarin? And you said you either
2 spoke to Mr. Giuliani in person or -- you either
3 met -- saw Mr. Giuliani or spoke to him.
4 That would have been on the phone or --
5 how did you guys normally communicate?
6 A. On the phone.
7 Q. On the phone. Okay.
8 Are you a big texter?
9 A. Not too much. And not with him.
10 Q. Not with him?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Because -- because he's not a big texter?
13 A. No. Because if I text him, it will take
14 six years for him to get back to him.
15 Q. I see. What about --
16 A. It's easier if I call him.
17 Q. Fair enough.
18 And what about e-mail? How is he on
19 e-mail?
20 A. No. Forget it.
21 Q. No. Okay. You've got to call.
22 Okay. So you're working wherever you're

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1 MR. PARLATORE: I don't know where you're
2 going with this. But to the extent that you want
3 to start getting into what was he -- what were
4 they doing in anticipation of litigation as
5 opposed to, in those instances, there were very
6 specific questions that were asked that he was
7 able to answer. To the extent you're trying to go
8 more broad and, you know, go on more of a fishing
9 expedition, the answer is no.
10 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: Well, certainly
11 that's not my intention.
12 MR. PARLATORE: Okay.
13 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: Is Mr. Sibley on
14 the line?
15 MS. MacCURDY: No.
16 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: Okay.
17 BY MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN:
18 Q. So let's go to your January 6th
19 testimony. I think that will be easier.
20 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: So can I just have
21 tab 26, please?
22 If we could just mark this as Exhibit 1,

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1 please. This is going to be a little unwieldy --
2 I'm sorry -- for you to look through. Didn't have
3 a stapler big enough.
4 (Kerik Deposition Exhibit 1 marked for
5 identification and attached to the
6 transcript.)
8 Q. So do you recognize this document?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. Do you see on the first page it
11 says the interview -- it's an interview of Bernard
12 Kerik on Thursday, January 13th, 2022?
13 A. I see it.
14 Q. Okay. So if we could just turn to
15 page 12, please. And I don't know how familiar
16 you are with reviewing transcripts, but there are
17 these line markers on the left-hand side, so I'll
18 refer to the page and the line.
19 So I'm starting at page 12. Let's do
20 line 16.
21 So the questioner says, "Okay. Perfect.
22 And we are pulling up -- it's Exhibit 1, which is

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1 the letter that I'm referencing, so I'm not just
2 reading into a void here. And I believe on page 2
3 it says, quote, Mr. Kerik was tasked with
4 investigating and gathering credible, verifiable,
5 and admissible evidence as part of a potential
6 litigation. And in this role he compiled a
7 significant amount of information regarding the
8 elections in the States of Arizona, Georgia,
9 Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania.
10 Understanding -- this is my question now.
11 Understanding that it may be more than that, not
12 just those states, do you agree with the statement
13 that Mr. Parlatore made?"
14 Then this is your answer, line 25: "Yes.
15 I think -- I think my role, our role, my specific
16 role, was not only to investigate the election for
17 possible litigation, it was also to provide the
18 legislature -- legislators and electors in the
19 various states, the six swing states, information
20 that they may or may not be aware of. So I think
21 there was a dual purpose, but primarily, it
22 started out for litigation. Yes."

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1 Do you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. And you agree with that, that
4 accurately reflects what you were doing?
5 A. Pretty much. Yeah.
6 Q. Okay. So you were -- you and
7 Mr. Giuliani were investigating the election in
8 these six states, right?
9 A. And anything else that came up.
10 Q. And anything else that came up.
11 A. Right.
12 Q. How -- when you say anything else that
13 came up, was that -- anything -- like,
14 Mr. Giuliani would maybe -- would direct you to
15 that? Or how would something else come up?
16 A. No. Basically the information that came
17 to us came from a hundred different sources. It
18 could have come from the campaign. It could have
19 come from somebody in the White House. It could
20 have come from a state legislator. It could have
21 come from a state campaign office. Could have
22 come from civilians. Could have come from outside

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1 attorneys that we had no contact -- we didn't know
2 who they were.
3 So we had -- we had tons of information
4 that was coming to us. When I say the six states,
5 those are the -- primarily the six swing states.
6 But there were times that, you know, somebody
7 would call and say, you know --
8 MR. PARLATORE: No, don't give examples.
9 THE WITNESS: Okay.
10 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: You're directing
11 him not to answer?
12 MR. PARLATORE: I am.
13 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: And on what basis?
14 MR. PARLATORE: Work product.
15 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: Okay.
16 MR. PARLATORE: You've read -- you've
17 read a portion of the transcript which is based on
18 a letter related to work product specifically.
19 Okay? That was -- you know, if you go back and
20 read the actual letter, it talks about how they
21 were trying to get to work product things, the
22 things that are in anticipation of litigation.

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1 So -- you have a very specific claim
2 here. You know, trying to go around it to go into
3 other things is not appropriate, especially when
4 it's privileged. So you need to move on.
5 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: Thank you very
6 much. This is my deposition, and I'll ask the
7 questions I'd like to ask.
8 MR. PARLATORE: I know. But since you're
9 trying to get into work product privileged things,
10 I'm explaining it to you.
11 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: I'm certainly not
12 trying to get into work product privilege --
13 MR. PARLATORE: Good. Then --
14 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: -- but I
15 appreciate --
16 MR. PARLATORE: Then let's move to
17 non-privileged issue.
18 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: As I said, this is
19 my deposition, and I'll be asking the questions I
20 like, which are going to be completely appropriate
21 and not probing into anything --
22 MR. PARLATORE: So far --

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1 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: -- work product.
2 MR. PARLATORE: -- you've already gone
3 into some work product stuff, so I anticipate
4 you'll probably continue to probe into that.
5 MS. HOUGHTON-LARSEN: Let's go to that
6 letter. Shall we?
7 What tab is that, Maggie?
8 We'll mark this as Exhibit 2, please.
11 transcript.)
13 Q. Okay. Do you recognize this?
14 A. I think so.
15 Q. Okay. Do you see that this is on
16 Mr. Parlatore's letterhead. It's dated
17 December 31st, 2021, and it's directed to the
18 January 6 Commission.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Okay. So you're welcome to review it if
21 you want, but I'm just going to direct us to the
22 second page.

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1 A. Okay.
2 Q. So on the second page, it's the middle
3 paragraph, I guess. It starts, "Mr. Kerik was
4 hired."
5 Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. It says, "Mr. Kerik was hired by
8 former President Donald Trump's legal team to act
9 as an investigator tasked to look into claims of
10 election fraud."
11 Okay. That's right, right?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Okay. Just while we're on it, did you --
14 did you have a contract or anything?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You didn't. Were you getting paid for
17 your work?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. Next sentence reads, "In this
20 role, Mr. Kerik received, reviewed, and processed
21 claims of fraud from around the country."
22 Okay. So when you say received, that's,

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3 transcript.)
4 THE WITNESS: Okay.
6 Q. Okay. So this is the attachment,
7 Exhibit 4. Feel free to review that, but I'll
8 direct you to particular points.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. And this e-mail and this attachment are
11 things that both you and Mr. Giuliani have
12 testified about previously, or given an interview
13 about previously, so I think we should be -- we
14 should be good --
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. -- from the attorney work product
17 concerns.
18 Okay. So just going back, you say, "We
19 need to pull the trigger today to have the impact
20 that's needed in the states we're targeting."
21 So what did you mean by that?
22 A. I think what I was talking about at the

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1 time was to force the legislators to do their job.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. From my perspective -- and now, I'm --
4 I'm going to say this, I don't remember
5 specifically what I was talking about at the time.
6 But given this and the plan, one problem we had
7 was that we were finding evidence of fraud,
8 improprieties, things of that nature. We were
9 going to the legislators. We were providing it to
10 them or -- which was even worse -- they were
11 providing us -- they were telling us, you know,
12 there is -- you know, we found this or we heard of
13 that or we're looking at this.
14 But our concern was you're going to be
15 involved in the certification or allow the
16 certification of a state vote that you, yourself,
17 know should not happen based on the things that we
18 were collecting. Based on the things that we were
19 reviewing, you know, we wanted to -- we wanted to
20 push them and educate them as to what we were
21 finding to make sure that they pretty much did
22 their job.

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1 And I think that's what I was talking
2 about.
3 Q. Okay. So this is reflecting your opinion
4 that you felt strongly about this, right?
5 A. In this e-mail, yeah.
6 Q. Okay. And am I correct -- I mean, the
7 mayor also had sent this, as you say, to Mark
8 Meadows the previous evening.
9 Is it fair to say he also felt strongly
10 about this, as far as you understood?
11 A. I would say. Yeah.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Or I would have never sent it.
14 Q. So tell me what you mean by that.
15 A. You know, the mayor is in charge.
16 Q. Right.
17 A. It's the mayor's legal team. If the
18 mayor is concerned or he has concerns or he wants
19 something done, you know, I would do it. If he
20 didn't want it, if he wasn't concerned, or he
21 said, you know, this isn't of interest to me, I
22 wouldn't do it.

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1 Q. Okay. So do you think -- I mean -- and I
2 don't want to get into anything too specific and
3 so --
4 A. Right.
5 Q. But would it have been the case for this
6 e-mail -- like, do you have a recollection of
7 checking with Mr. Giuliani before sending this?
8 A. Right now?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Would that have been your regular
12 practice?
13 A. Normally.
14 Q. Normally?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. So he would have been aware that
17 you were doing this?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Normally. Not -- I can't say he was
21 aware, but under normal conditions, yes.
22 Q. But he was obviously aware -- or I

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1 shouldn't say obviously. Strike that.
2 A. Right.
3 Q. He was aware of the Giuliani team's
4 strategic communications plan --
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Right. That people were working on it?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. Right. Okay. And I am going to skip the
9 next two paragraphs, but you read them.
10 And then in the last paragraph you say,
11 "We can do all the investigations we want later,
12 but if the President plans on winning, it's the
13 legislators that have to be moved, and this will
14 do just that," right?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. And what do you mean by "we can do all
17 the investigations we want later"?
18 A. Well, the problem is -- and this is -- I
19 think this is -- you know, I think for maybe law
20 firms like yours, I think the press -- I think,
21 you know, the critics of the "big lie" thing, as
22 the J6 committee puts it, I think nobody realizes

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1 is.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. Serrano's public relations team.
5 Research team. CR. Off the top of my
6 head...
8 Q. Sorry for the memory test.
9 A. Yeah, I don't know.
10 Q. What about SP?
11 A. Don't know.
12 Q. Do you think it was Sidney Powell?
13 A. What's the date here? Is there a date on
14 this thing?
15 Q. The date says, "Timeline, December 27th -
16 January 6th." And this is, remember, attached to
17 the e-mail that you sent on December 28th.
18 A. Oh, December 28th I sent this? It could
19 have been Sidney Powell, but she was -- you know,
20 the mayor dismissed her, you know, away from --
21 you know, we created distance between us and her,
22 and I don't know when that was. So I don't know.

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1 It could have been, if that was before he told her
2 she was no longer connected to the team.
3 Q. Understood.
4 Do you have a sense of who -- or do you
5 remember or know who TF was referring to?
6 A. No.
7 Q. No. And what about PW?
8 A. Phil Waldron.
9 Q. Okay. And what's the Peter Navarro team?
10 A. Peter Navarro worked for the President.
11 And there were some people in his office, I think
12 a guy and a girl from his office, and I don't
13 remember their names.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. But it was somebody from his office
16 maybe.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. There were -- there was a lot of data, a
19 lot of stuff that they were collecting and
20 forwarding to us. If somebody called -- I guess
21 if somebody called the White House and gave them
22 stuff to look at, or complaints or allegations,

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1 they would send it to us.
2 Q. And would they send it to you? Or who
3 would they send it to you?
4 A. It could be anybody on the team.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Most likely the lawyers.
7 Q. Most likely the lawyers. Okay.
8 And I think -- I know you testified about
9 this at the January 6th. I'm happy to direct you
10 to the testimony if you prefer.
11 But you said there were continual
12 discussions for about six weeks about this
13 strategic communications plan; is that correct?
14 A. Yeah. I mean, not specifically about the
15 plan itself, but it was -- you know, all this
16 stuff, the allegations within here, that's what
17 the plan was about.
18 Q. Right.
19 A. So that was the continual discussions. I
20 don't think we had a continual discussion about
21 the plan.
22 Q. So correct me if I'm misstating, but you

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1 would say that there were continual discussions
2 about getting the evidence and the allegations
3 that you were receiving and that you knew about in
4 front of the various state legislatures?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. And how were those discussions
7 taking place? Were you having meetings?
8 A. We had meetings if it was necessary. If
9 somebody wanted -- somebody had something to see
10 the mayor and, you know, give him something, there
11 would be a meeting with the people that would have
12 to be involved. Right?
13 But we basically lived out of two suites,
14 you know, in the Mandarin or -- first we were in
15 the Mandarin. Then the mayor and I got COVID and
16 they kicked us out of the Mandarin, and we went to
17 the -- we went to the Willard. And even in the
18 Willard, we ran the investigative element of this
19 out of our suites. We had a conference room plus
20 our suites. So we were in constant -- we were in
21 meetings all day long.
22 Q. I see.

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1 A. Everybody was working out of those rooms.
2 Q. I see. So was the mayor also working
3 there -- out of there with you all?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Okay. I think you said if somebody had
6 something to see the mayor -- to show the mayor, I
7 think is what you said, you know, give him
8 something, there would be a meeting with the
9 people that would have to be involved.
10 A. Right.
11 Q. Okay. Do you have a memory of whether
12 they were formal meetings or discussions that you
13 all were having because you were just in close
14 proximity about this plan to get evidence to the
15 legislatures?
16 A. No.
17 Q. No.
18 A. It wasn't -- you know, it's not like we
19 came into a conference room like this --
20 Q. Right.
21 A. -- and there was a camera and there was
22 recorders and all that -- no, none of that.

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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2 I do hereby certify that the aforesaid
3 testimony was taken before me, pursuant to notice, at
4 the time and place indicated; that said deponent was
5 by me duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth,
6 and nothing but the truth; that the testimony of said
7 witness was taken by me in stenotypy and thereafter
8 reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said
9 statement is a true record of the proceedings; that I
10 am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by
11 any of the parties to the action in which this
12 statement was taken; and, further, that I am not a
13 relative or employee of any counsel or attorney
14 employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or
15 otherwise interested in the outcome of this action.
16
17
18
19
20
22 CHRISTINA S. HOTSKO, RPR, CRR

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EXHIBIT 7

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
RUBY FREEMAN, et al. ) Civil Action
Plaintiffs, ) No. 21-3354
vs. )
)
RUDOLPH GIULIANI, ) March 21, 2023
Defendant. ) 9:42 a.m.
) Washington, D.C.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
TRANSCRIPT OF DISCOVERY HEARING

BEFORE THE HONORABLE BERYL A. HOWELL,
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT JUDGE
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: MICHAEL J. GOTTLIEB

MARIE ANNIE HOUGHTON-LARSEN
Willkie Farr & Gallagher, LLP
1875 K Street, NW
(202) 303-1442
Email: mgottlieb@willkie.com
FOR THE DEFENSE: JOSEPH D. SIBLEY, IV

Camara & Sibley LLP
1108 Lavaca St
Austin, TX 78701
(713) 966-6789
Court Reporter: Elizabeth Saint-Loth, RPR, FCRR

Official Court Reporter
This hearing was held via videoconference and/or

telephonically and is, therefore, subject to the limitations
associated with audio difficulties while using technology,
i.e., overlapping speakers, static interference, etc.
Proceedings reported by machine shorthand.

Transcript produced by computer-aided transcription.
Excerpted
1 thought.
2 So talking about the seizure of his forensic
3 devices doesn't, to my mind, help you because they have been
4 returned.
6 I was getting to the next point, which is that all
7 of that data --
8 THE COURT: Well, why don't we stop right there.
9 They have been returned. Mr. Giuliani has had all
10 of his electronic devices returned to him in his custody.
11 Has each and every one of those electronic devices
12 been searched for responsive documents?
13 MR. SIBLEY: The answer is --
14 THE COURT: It's a simple: Yes, no, or I don't
15 know. And Mr. Giuliani is here to help respond to that.
16 MR. SIBLEY: Sure, Your Honor.
17 And what I'm trying to explain is that that data
18 taken by the DOJ was put onto a server, all of it. So what
19 we did was we searched that data, which would have
20 encompassed all of the information taken from the devices
21 pursuant to the search terms the plaintiffs provided. And
22 pursuant to those search terms, those were the 100-something
23 documents that we ultimately produced.
24 So have we searched those devices? No.
25 But I feel pretty confident that the DOJ did a

1 pretty good job of searching the devices. So, by searching
2 their data, I feel like we have complied with that part of
3 the request.
4 The reason why I didn't -- I couldn't certify to
5 Her Honor that everything has been searched is that
6 Mr. Giuliani had electronic devices after the seizure, and I
7 am not sure that he has -- I think -- I think everything has
8 been produced.
9 But I don't think he has gone through and looked
10 at his social media accounts to see if there are messages,
11 for example, that were sent pertaining to plaintiffs. There
12 are some things like that that I don't think he's fully
13 certified. I think we've -- I think he needs to do that.
14 And so I think the lion's share of everything has been
15 searched, Your Honor; but I do think there are some rocks
16 that need to be turned over and looked under, and that needs
17 to be done.
18 THE COURT: Okay. 194 documents does seem to be
19 fairly small, given -- just based on the length of time, the
20 amount of public statements that were made, and so on, in
21 connection with the claims in this case.
22 Did that number of documents -- responsive
23 documents in the search of the database of all of the data
24 forensically retrieved from his devices seized by the
25 government surprise you as being particularly a low number,

1 Mr. Sibley?
2 MR. SIBLEY: No, because these -- the plaintiffs
3 were a very small piece, I think, of broader election
4 issues; and there just isn't -- there just aren't very many
5 things in writing about the plaintiffs, Your Honor.
6 Mr. Giuliani was not a big texter or emailer. He
7 is a little more of an old-school, kind of, paper and phone
8 conversations. I don't think we had a single document that
9 even had their names mentioned on it. I think it was a
10 strategic communications plan document that I don't think
11 Mr. Giuliani even created that -- that was out there. But
12 that's really it. I mean, that was the only document that I
13 recall seeing the plaintiffs' names even on.
14 So I understand that, sort of on the surface, that
15 seems surprising given how much of this was out there, how
16 much of this was talked about. But I don't think -- I mean,
17 I think that's just the way it is. There's just not that
18 many documents with the plaintiffs -- referring to the
19 plaintiffs because they were -- they were a small -- I know
20 Your Honor was not at Mr. Giuliani's deposition. But what
21 he testified to is he wasn't even really aware of these
22 ladies until he went down to Georgia for the Senate hearing;
23 and that's kind of when he became aware of it.
24 So there really wasn't a lot of -- he was really
25 relying on other people, I think, for information about the

1 ladies. He was looking at the videos and making statements.
2 There really was not a lot of paper background. And
3 that's -- your know, that's relevant to the case, that there
4 wasn't. But it's -- that's just the way -- that's the way
5 the documents played out.
6 THE COURT: And did you produce a privilege log,
7 along with your production of 194 responsive documents?
8 MR. SIBLEY: We did produce a privilege log,
9 Your Honor. We also went into those privileged documents to
10 see -- because these privileged documents were the whole
11 gamut of January 6th stuff, Dominion, Smartmatic; it was all
12 of the election litigation. We produced all of those
13 documents to the plaintiffs just because -- I mean, it was
14 already produced and it was easy for us to do it.
15 We went through the privileged documents and
16 looked to see which ones of those documents specifically
17 related to Fulton County or, potentially, the plaintiffs;
18 and there were only a handful that even did. And I produced
19 a supplemental privilege log that gave some more detailed
20 information to the plaintiffs about those specific
21 documents.
22 THE COURT: All right. And so have you -- well,
23 plaintiff has also gotten, certainly, the impression that he
24 has not preserved records relating to these plaintiffs.
25 So has, basically, Mr. Giuliani locked down -- put

1 a litigation hold on -- all of his records given the
2 pendency of this litigation?
3 MR. SIBLEY: Well, Your Honor, I think the answer
4 is yes. I don't know -- I don't recall in his deposition if
5 he was specifically asked that question. But, certainly,
6 the documents that were taken by the DOJ were locked -- in
7 April of 2021. So all of those documents are fixed, so
8 that's certainly locked in.
9 Everything after that -- I mean, I think he
10 test- -- I think he answered an interrogatory and said he
11 has not -- he has not destroyed or deleted any documents.
12 So I think what they're asking for -- I don't know that
13 there was so much concern about whether the documents had
14 been spoiled. But I think the concern is he needs to
15 certify that that has, in fact, not occurred; and I am not
16 sure that he has -- I'm not sure that he has done that.
17 I am not sure that there was specifically -- I
18 don't know that there was a specific interrogatory asked,
19 other than the one I mentioned that asked whether he deleted
20 documents. But he -- he certainly is willing to certify
21 that however the Court would like him to do so.
22 THE COURT: All right. So back to you,
23 Mr. Gottlieb.
24 Did you understand how the search was executed and
25 what the data source was when the search was executed, or
1 are you learning that here?
2 MR. GOTTLIEB: We understood what Defendant
3 Giuliani's explanation was for where the documents came
4 from. In other words, that the DOJ had seized a number of
5 devices and that search terms had been applied as to those
6 devices.
7 What we don't know is -- first of all, we don't
8 know what the DOJ collected and put onto that database. So
9 we have no idea, you know, which, if any, of the devices
10 were fully pulled, for what time period, what -- and we also
11 don't know if that collection contains anything other than
12 emails.
13 What we know for sure is that the only search that
14 the defendant ran for documents was a search relating to
15 email extension files. So no searches for text messages; no
16 searches for social media accounts; private messages, which
17 Defendant Giuliani testified at his deposition he did recall
18 sending during the relevant -- sending and receiving during
19 the relevant period of time. No collection from things like
20 Signal or WhatsApp or Wickr, or other messaging platforms
21 that Defendant Giuliani also testified during his deposition
22 that he used during the relevant period of time.
23 And I think more to the point, notwithstanding
24 sort of two other large areas that we don't believe have
25 been searched, Defendant Giuliani continued to defame our

1 clients after his devices were seized into 2022. He had
2 both continued access to his email accounts, which are
3 accessible not just through his devices but through the
4 Cloud, as well as a new phone that he received -- or that he
5 purchased and started using after his devices were seized.
6 And when I asked him at his deposition if he had
7 searched those -- that new phone, new devices, in response
8 to our discovery requests, I, essentially, got a -- I asked
9 that question about four or five times. I got responses
10 that, essentially, amounted to: I know I did a search at
11 some point in time for something related to these sets of
12 cases.
13 So I couldn't get a precise answer as to whether a
14 search had ever been done -- or the specific request for
15 production of interrogatories that we have advanced in this
16 litigation -- for the phone that he had after the point in
17 time that the government seized his phone.
18 And I did ask -- well, first of all, we had both
19 RFPs and interrogatories directed at the question of
20 preservation specifically; so those were propounded in
21 discovery back when we first served our discovery requests.
22 So we did put that at issue. I did ask questions about that
23 during the deposition. And we have -- we still, up until
24 this date, have no idea whether steps have been taken to
25 preserve those accounts.

1 In fact, I specifically asked Mr. Giuliani during
2 his deposition whether he had contacted, for example, any of
3 the social media platforms or his email provider in order to
4 do a takedown or pull-down of his data. And he said he had
5 no recollection of ever having performed any type of a
6 search -- or any type of a request like that.
7 And then last, but not least, one of our
8 earliest -- we asked -- in our initial set of requests for
9 production, we asked for phone records from the defendant in
10 order to be able to ascertain both the numbers that he was
11 using but, also, to be able to ascertain a certain -- the
12 records of phone calls around particular periods of time
13 which became -- has become very important in this litigation
14 with respect to the so-called strategic communications plan,
15 as well as the defendant's participation and knowledge
16 regarding the phone call that former President Trump made to
17 Secretary of State Raffensperger because White House phone
18 logs show that Defendant Giuliani -- or we believe show that
19 Defendant Giuliani had calls with President Trump both
20 before that conversation took place and immediately
21 afterwards.
22 So we believe that there is, you know, evidence in
23 those phone logs that we requested in our initial request
24 for production directly relevant to some of the key claims
25 in our case relating to defamation of our clients which took

Excerpted
1 needs to be searched.
2 And I am not sure that Mr. Giuliani can certify to
3 that, which is, I think, what Mr. Gottlieb said he said in
4 his deposition. He thinks he did, but he is not sure. He
5 needs to do that. Which is why I was hesitant to represent
6 to the Court that it has all been done because I need him to
7 certify to that.
8 THE COURT: All right. And what about the very
9 significant point that Mr. Gottlieb pointed out: That
10 performing searches on the database, I guess, created, so to
11 speak, by the Department of Justice -- based on the
12 parameters of the search warrant -- which may or may not be
13 coterminous with your obligations for discovery in this
14 case.
15 What is your response to that, Mr. Sibley?
16 MR. SIBLEY: I am not sure I understand the
17 Court's -- what the Court's question is.
18 Is the Court asking -- my understanding is that
19 DOJ took everything from these devices, like, every file was
20 extracted, even background files like operating system files
21 and things like that.
22 So my understanding is that every -- the entire
23 universe of files from these devices was extracted by the
24 DOJ, and that's what we, in fact, searched pursuant to the
25 search terms the plaintiffs provided, at least with respect

1 to the emails.
2 THE COURT: And the basis of that understanding is
3 what?
4 MR. SIBLEY: That the DOJ --
5 THE COURT: Because I would think that DOJ might
6 put material on a database that's responsive to the search
7 warrant, so you have to know the specific parameters of the
8 search warrant to know what is on the database.
9 MR. SIBLEY: So my understanding -- and this is
10 from speaking with the special master's counsel -- was --
11 and I don't think this is really in dispute; that all of the
12 files that were extracted were put onto one server, which we
13 then got a copy of from the DOJ, and that's -- with an
14 electronic discovery vendor called Trustpoint.One, and so
15 that's what we searched.
16 That's -- I mean, I wasn't involved in that part
17 of the case, Your Honor, this is just -- that's my
18 understanding from the special master that was involved with
19 this data collection. I don't know that anyone has really
20 disputed that. I am pretty confident that the DOJ did take
21 all of the files.
22 If the Court would like us --
23 THE COURT: Over what date range? All the files
24 no matter what the date range was?
25 MR. SIBLEY: Yes. In fact, Your Honor, some of

1 the -- we did give an inventory, I think, to plaintiffs of
2 some devices that were returned pretty early on, which were,
3 like, really old devices. I mean, any electronic device --
4 my understanding is any electronic device that they found at
5 Mr. Giuliani's apartment, they took.
6 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Sibley, you are going to
7 need to get a much better definition of what documents were
8 put on whatever database it was that you researched so
9 that -- that you searched so that you can figure out what is
10 missing because -- based on what you are telling me -- it's
11 all way too vague. It is -- it raises so many questions
12 that make me think you really don't have any idea what has
13 been searched and what hasn't been searched because you
14 don't really know what's been put up on that database, which
15 is the only place you have searched.
16 You need to do a lot better than that. And I am
17 going to you give you some deadlines --
18 THE DEFENDANT: Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: -- so that we can --
20 THE DEFENDANT: Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: -- so that we can -- who is -- yes,
22 Mr. Giuliani.
23 THE DEFENDANT: Your Honor, can I supplement that?
24 I might know this better than Mr. Sibley.
25 THE COURT: That's why I wanted you here,

1 Mr. Giuliani, because you have a full view of all of --
2 THE DEFENDANT: I am not sure I --
3 THE COURT: -- of what -- of where all your data
4 is going and where people want to look at your data, and it
5 may -- you may have a broader view than Mr. Sibley.
6 THE DEFENDANT: I am happy to help you.
7 THE COURT: So please.
8 THE DEFENDANT: So let's just -- let's just
9 confine ourselves to my electronic devices for a moment, and
10 that would be up until the date of the seizure.
11 They seized every single electronic device, both
12 in my home and in my law office, including electronic
13 devices that hadn't been used for 20 years, and electronic
14 devices of other people.
15 They then took all of my electronic devices --
16 THE COURT: And what was the precise date of it,
17 Mr. Giuliani?
18 THE DEFENDANT: The date of it, I don't -- I'm
19 sorry. I don't -- we can get that date; it's an official
20 date. It seems like it was in April of 2021 -- I don't
21 know -- something like that, that they seized it.
22 They held it for over a year. I had no access to
23 any of them at that time; nor do I have access, as someone
24 said mistakenly, to my prior email account. I still don't
25 have access to that and haven't used it since then. So

1 that's completely frozen.
2 My lawyers, United States Attorney's Office,
3 Barbara Jones -- the Special Master, former United States
4 District Judge -- all agreed on a vendor called Trustpoint.
5 Trustpoint took all -- after sorting out all of the
6 electronic devices that were irrelevant, meaning belonging
7 to other people or relating to other parts of my law
8 practice that were clearly only devoted to a particular
9 client having nothing to do with this, they homed in on
10 everything having to do with my representation of Trump,
11 which would encompass anything involving this, plus a lot
12 more.
13 And they put it in -- and Trustpoint put it in
14 their program, which cost a great deal of money, and then
15 set up a search engine for the benefit, first, of the
16 special master, so she could make rulings on privilege; and
17 then for the benefit of the government so they can do their
18 investigation; and then, I guess, for our benefit, should we
19 ever have to defend ourselves.
20 And, eventually, when the government determined
21 there was no case and closed the case, they returned -- they
22 returned that to me.
23 The only thing I am not sure of that I would have
24 to check with my lawyer, Mr. Costello, is when did we first
25 get access to the Trustpoint rubric -- call it -- computer,

1 that has every one of my electronic devices that exists for
2 20 years in it. I seem to think we might have gotten access
3 to it slightly before they closed the case, even before we
4 got the electronic devices back. I'm not sure of that.
5 That's when we started doing searches.
6 Now, you have to understand, Your Honor -- it's
7 not an excuse, but can be a source of confusion. But there
8 are about -- I don't know -- seven or eight cases that had
9 pending requests for discovery, much like this one, that had
10 been delayed for a year or more, including not just civil
11 but criminal investigations that were awaiting these
12 documents to get completed.
13 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Giuliani, I am going to
14 interrupt you.
15 Mr. Gottlieb [sic], I think it's incumbent on you
16 to get detailed information about precisely what is on the
17 Trustpoint database. I am not -- I really -- I appreciate
18 what Mr. Giuliani thinks he understands, that everything on
19 all of his electronic devices were put on that database; I
20 would be surprised.
21 But you need to find out precisely what was put on
22 that database and precisely what was searched, and what
23 wasn't. And you need to figure that out really promptly
24 because it's a little late in the day for you to not know
25 exactly what you have searched yet in terms of what file

1 formats were put on that database, what the date range was
2 put on that database. Really, you need to figure that out.
3 You need to confer with Mr. Gottlieb about what else you
4 need to search.
5 And given how late in the day it is, I would like
6 you to be able to do that -- figure all of that out and keep
7 the Court apprised now at this point, since I am involved,
8 of what still has to be searched given the limitations of
9 what is on the database, which is the only thing you have
10 searched so far --
11 THE DEFENDANT: No. It is not, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: -- what steps you have taken to obtain
13 social media and other counts that Mr. Giuliani, apparently,
14 has already testified at a deposition under oath that he
15 used in a communication about the issues relevant to this
16 lawsuit.
17 Can you do that by the end of the week?
18 MR. SIBLEY: I want to make sure I understand what
19 the Court is asking with respect to the Trustpoint
20 documents.
21 The Trustpoint documents are -- I mean, in order
22 for me to certify to that, I would have to get -- I mean, I
23 suppose I would have to get something from the special
24 master or the DOJ, which -- I have already -- I have already
25 had conversations with the special master about it, and they
1 have confirmed this. I just don't know --
2 THE COURT: Well, I am sure Mr. Costello knows
3 precisely what's on that database. I am sure you can just
4 talk to Mr. Giuliani's counsel in that case.
5 Is it Mr. Costello, Mr. Giuliani?
6 THE DEFENDANT: Excuse me, Judge?
7 THE COURT: Is your counsel on the case involving
8 Judge Jones serving as special master, did you say that was
9 Mr. Costello?
10 THE DEFENDANT: Yes. Yes.
11 THE COURT: So, Mr. Gottlieb [sic], that seems
12 like a good place to start. And he would likely know --
13 have much more firsthand information about precisely what
14 was uploaded onto the Trustpoint database.
15 But based on what I am hearing, it certainly
16 doesn't include social media accounts. It may or may not
17 include texts; it may or may not include Signal
18 communications. It may not include other communication
19 forms.
20 So I think -- I would like you to get that done by
21 this Friday, the 24th, and confer with Mr. Gottlieb about
22 it, and provide notice to the Court that that has been done
23 so that you know what you have left to search and what the
24 time frame is for you completing a search for all of those
25 appropriate records.
Excerpted
1 searched.
2 MR. SIBLEY: I understand.
3 THE COURT: Is that clear, Mr. Sibley?
4 MR. SIBLEY: Yes, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 If there is nothing further, you are all excused.
7 Thank you.
8 MR. SIBLEY: Thank you, Your Honor.
9 MR. GOTTLIEB: Thank you, Your Honor.
10 (Whereupon, the proceeding concludes, 10:52 a.m.)
11 * * * * *
12 CERTIFICATE
13 I, ELIZABETH SAINT-LOTH, RPR, FCRR, do hereby

certify that the foregoing constitutes a true and accurate
14 transcript of my stenographic notes, and is a full, true,
and complete transcript of the proceedings to the best of my
15 ability.
16 PLEASE NOTE: This hearing was held via

videoconference and is, therefore, subject to the
17 limitations associated with the use of technology, including
but not limited to telephone signal interference, static,
18 overlapping speakers, signal interruptions, and other
restrictions and limitations associated with remote court
19 reporting via telephone, speakerphone, and/or
videoconferencing capabilities.
20
This certificate shall be considered null and void
21 if the transcript is disassembled and/or photocopied in any
manner by any party without authorization of the signatory
22 below.
23
Dated this 30th day of March, 2023.
24
/s/ Elizabeth Saint-Loth, RPR, FCRR
25 Official Court Reporter
EXHIBIT 8

Plaintiffs, Civil Action No. 21-3354 (BAH)
v. Chief Judge Beryl A. Howell
Defendants.
SUPPLEMENTAL ANSWERS TO FIRST SET OF INTERROGATORIES
Defendant serves his Supplemental Answers to First Set of Interrogatories as follows:
INTERROGATORY NO. 1:
Identify and describe in detail all evidence on which You relied to support any and all Statements attributed
to You in the Complaint, including but not limited to evidence that Plaintiffs engaged in any form of election
fraud or illegal conduct during the 2020 Presidential Election, and the attempts, if any, You took to examine
or independently confirm the veracity of such evidence.
ANSWER:
Defendant objects to this Interrogatory as overly broad and calling for a narrative answer.
Defendant reviewed the video of Plaintiffs in Fulton County that is referenced in the Complaint.
Defendant also became aware of stories circulating that Plaintiff Freeman had been arrested on allegations
relating to voter fraud.
Defendant reserves the right to supplement the answer to this Interrogatory.
AMENDED ANSWER:
Defendant reviewed the videos of Plaintiffs in Fulton County that are referenced in the Complaint and other
videos of Plaintiffs’ election-related activities, which speak for themselves. The Statements attributed to
Defendant in the Complaint, as they relate to the video footage, are Defendants subjective interpretation
and opinion regarding what the video footage shows and is, therefore, an opinion based on disclosed facts.
Defendant also became aware of stories circulating that Plaintiff Freeman had been arrested on allegations
relating to voter fraud and several publications that agreed with his subjective interpretation of the video.
Defendant does not recall any further specifics but reserves the right to supplement if his recollection is
refreshed.
SUPPLEMENTAL ANSWER:
Defendant may have also relied on information from Bernard Kerik as to Plaintiffs’ backgrounds and arrest
records over the phone as discussed in his deposition. Defendant also relied on interviews with GOP
election observers and recalls seeing their affidavit/declaration testimony as discussed in his deposition.
Identify and describe in detail all evidence of which You are or have been aware that contradicted and/or
discredited the Statements attributed to You in the Complaint, and provide details regarding the attempts,
if any, You took to examine such evidence. Your answer to this Interrogatory should specifically address,
but not be limited to, whether and how You considered: statements by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation;
statements by Voting Implementation Manager for the State of Georgia, Gabriel Sterling; the Watson
Affidavit; and the December 7, 2020 recertification of Joe Biden’s victory in Georgia; the articles and
publications by Lead Stories, PolitiFact, and Georgia Public Broadcasting referenced in the Complaint; the
January 12, 2021, report by Mr. Carter Join, State Election Board Report – Post-Election Executive
Summary, Seven Hills Strategies (Jan. 12, 2021), https://perma.cc/7U3Z-DX2J; the decision in In re
Giuliani, 197 A.D.3d 1, 146 N.Y.S.3d 266 (1st Dep’t 2021); the May 5, 2021, deposition of James Calloway
in Jeffords v. Fulton County, No. 2020-cv-343938 (Ga. Super. Ct. May 5, 2021), available at
https://perma.cc/PYU3-G5K4; the Georgia Secretary of State’s October 12, 2021, filing in Favorito v. Wan,
No. 2020-cv-343938 (Ga. Super. Ct. Oct. 12, 2021) and the exhibits thereto, available at
https://perma.cc/PYU3-G5K4; and statements by former Attorney General William Barr in One Damn
2
Thing After Another: Memoirs of an Attorney General (2022) or otherwise made by Mr. Barr around the
book’s publication concerning the Statements.
ANSWER:
Defendant objects to this Interrogatory as assuming facts not in evidence. An interrogatory cannot create
a “reading list” for Defendant. Defendant eventually became aware of claims that his statements regarding
Plaintiffs were disputed but he does not have a specific recollection of what documents/evidenced he
reviewed to this effect or when this occurred. Defendant interviewed John Solomon—over a year after the
original event in question—who indicated that he did not agree with the veracity of certain allegations in
Defendants’ statements regarding Plaintiffs.
AMENDED ANSWER:
Defendant objects to this Interrogatory as assuming facts not in evidence, namely that the answer “should
include” a discussion of materials for which a predicate has not been laid. The interrogatory seeks to answer
its own question by volunteering a reading list.
Subject to, and without waiving these objections, Defendant eventually became aware of claims that his
statements regarding Plaintiffs were disputed but he does not have a specific recollection of what
documents/evidenced he reviewed to this effect or when this occurred.
Defendant is aware of allegedly contradictory evidence in the Complaint and in this Interrogatory but has
not undertaken to review such materials.
Defendant also interviewed John Solomon—over a year after the original event in question—who indicated
that he did not agree with the veracity of certain allegations in Defendants’ statements regarding Plaintiffs,
but Solomon did agree that protocols were not properly followed such as closing the vote counting to the
public.
Identify and describe in detail any conversations You had, participated in, or are aware of with former
President Donald J. Trump or members of the Trump Campaign regarding Plaintiffs.
3
ANSWER:
Defendant does not have a specific recollection of conversations regarding Plaintiffs with former President
Trump. Defendant does not have specific recollection of conversations with the Trump Campaign
regarding Plaintiffs but does not deny that conversations must have occurred at some level because the
video of Plaintiffs counting ballots was utilized in various proceedings in which Defendant represented the
Trump Campaign.
AMENDED ANSWER:
Defendant does not have a specific recollection of conversations regarding Plaintiffs with former President
Trump but believes that there may have been discussions regarding the videos in which Plaintiffs appear.
Should Defendant’s recollection be refreshed on this subjection matter, this would be protected by attorney-
client privilege. Defendant also does not have specific recollection of conversations with the Trump
Campaign regarding Plaintiffs but does not deny that conversations must have occurred at some level
because the video of Plaintiffs counting ballots was utilized in various proceedings in which Defendant
represented the Trump Campaign. However, once again, to the Defendant’s recollection be refreshed on
this subjection matter, this would be protected by attorney-client privilege.
Defendant generally recalls that he was made aware of the existence of a video the night before the hearing
before the Georgia Senate Election Hearing on December 3, 2020. Defendant did not see the video until it
was played at the hearing. Defendant generally recalls that after the hearing he was shown what he believes
was the same video shown in the hearing room (and some additional segments showing what appeared to
be thumb drives being passed and were described that way by the people in the viewing room) in the
presence of Jackie Pick, William Smith, Burt Jones, unknown Burt Jones associates, and unknown GOP
operatives who were present in Atlanta, GA when he reviewed the videos. See also Deposition Transcript
testimony. Defendant does not recall the specifics of the conversations. These conversations would not be
4
privileged because they were not in anticipation of litigation. Defendant does not recall the specific videos
he watched.
Describe in detail the Giuliani Communications Plan, including but not limited to its formation, its
author(s), all of the individuals identified as members of the “Giuliani Presidential Legal Defense Team”
and/or the “Giuliani Team,” all of the individua ls identified as “Key Team Members,” whether or not listed
by name or acronym, including but not limited to “BK,” KF,” “SB,” “BE,” “CR,” “SP,” “TF,” “PW,”
“Media Advisors,” “Serrano Public Relations Team,” “Research Team,” “Tech Team,” “Peter Navarro
Team,” “Local Legal Teams in AZ, GA, MI, NV, PA, WI,” the “Identified Legislative Leaders in each
swing state,” and the “Freedom Caucus Members,” the basis or facts supporting the “Voter Fraud
Highlights” for the State of Georgia listed on pages 9, 10, and 11 of the Giuliani Communications Plan, the
basis or facts supporting the “Suitcase Gate” and “Water Leak” “Fraud Incidents” listed on pages 20 and
21 of the Giuliani Communications Plan, and all individuals You are aware were intended to receive copies
of the Giuliani Communications Plan and/or who were intended to assist in its implementation..
ANSWER:
Defendant objects to this Interrogatory because it seeks information regarding a document that Defendant
is not the author of. Defendant does not have personal knowledge of the questions asked by this
Interrogatory. Subject to and without waiving these objections, Defendant will supplement this answer
with non-personal knowledge as he further looks into the document as discovery progresses.
AMENDED ANSWER:
Defendant objects to this Interrogatory because it seeks information regarding a document that Defendant
is not the author of. Defendant does not have personal knowledge of the questions asked by this
Interrogatory.
Subject to and without waiving these objections, Defendant has learned that this document was authored
by Katherine Friess. Defendant was not involved in the creation of the document. Defendant did not
5
approve the document or the proposals/statements therein. Defendant did not approve his name being used
in connection with the document. Defendant does not even recall specifically seeing the document in the
2020-time frame. Defendant was aware that Friess wanted to make a proposal to implement the substance
of the document to the White House but did not support the plan in its particulars or support it. In short, it
was Defendant’s opinion that the White House would not fund the proposal. Defendant had nothing to do
with the preparation or creation of the document.
Identify and describe in detail all individuals with whom you have ever discussed either of the Plaintiffs
and describe what You said about the Plaintiffs in these conversations.
ANSWER:
Defendant objects to this Interrogatory as overly broad and unduly burdensome. Other than the statements
itemized in Plaintiff’s Complaint, which speak for themselves as to what was said and who they were said
to, Plaintiff does not have a specific recollection of discussing Plaintiffs with any particular individuals.
Defendant generally recalls that he was made aware of the existence of a video the night before the hearing
before the Georgia Senate Election Hearing on December 3, 2020. Defendant did not see the video until it
was played at the hearing. Defendant generally recalls that after the hearing he was shown what he believes
was the same video shown in the hearing room (possibly some additional segments) in the presence of
Jackie Pick, William Smith, Burt Jones, unknown Burt Jones associates, and unknown GOP operatives who
were present in Atlanta, GA when he reviewed the videos. See also Deposition Transcript testimony.
Defendant does not recall the specifics of the conversations. These conversations would not be privileged
because they were not in anticipation of litigation.
6
Describe in detail Your role, official or unofficial, with the Trump Campaign and/or any engagement you
had or continue to have with former President Donald J. Trump from November 3, 2020 to the Present, at
the time you made each of the various Statements about Plaintiffs described in Paragraphs 57–101 of the
Complaint. If Your role with the Trump Campaign and/or your engagement with former President Donald
J. Trump changed or varied over this time period, describe in detail the exact dates on which your role
and/or engagement started, ended, or changed.
ANSWER:
Defendant served as head of the Trump Campaign’s legal team shortly after the 2020 Election and remained
involved in that position until January 2021 when the legal challenges to the election reached their
conclusion. Defendant has also served as personal legal advisor to former President Trump on and off
throughout the years and did so in the 2020-21 timeframe on miscellaneous matters.
Respectfully submitted,
By: /s/ Joseph D. Sibley IV
CAMARA & SIBLEY L.L.P.
Joseph D. Sibley IV
DC Bar ID: TX0202
1108 Lavaca St.
Suite 110263
Austin, TX 78701
Telephone: (713) 966-6789

Fax: (713) 583-1131
ATTORNEYS FOR RUDOLPH GIULIANI
7
I hereby certify that on this 30th day of March, 2023, I served the foregoing via email.
/s/ Joseph D. Sibley IV

Joseph D. Sibley IV
8
EXHIBIT 9
From: Wilkinson, Scott <scott.wilklnson@hawks.com>

Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 2:22 PM
To: Ray 5. Smith, Il l <rsm ith@smithliss.com>
Subject: Re: State Farm Arena Video Links - Update
Thanks- can you tell me the t ime stamps and view that you used?
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 3, 2020, at 2:18 PM, Ray S. Smith, Il l <rsmith@smithliss.com> wrote:
***External Sender - Please Exercise Caution***

We presented a small portion of the tape @ a state senate hearing today
Ray S.Smith Ill Esq.

5 Concourse Parkway
Suite 2600
Atlanta, GA 30328
404-760-6006
On Dec 2, 2020, at 4:43 PM, Wilkinson, Scott <scott.wilkinson@hawks.com> wrote:
The link and Charles Gore's email shall serve as the response to subpoenas in Wood vs.
Raffensberqer, Schmitz, et.al vs Fulton County Board of Registration and Elections, et. al.,
and Pearson et al. v. Kemp, as well as other governmental administrative
claim/complaint related requests.
If you plan to release any portion of the videos to the med ia, I would appreciate a
heads-up so we can respond, if needed.
Happy watching to all.
Best,
Scott
From: Gore, Charles <charles.gore@hawks.com>

Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 3:43 PM
To: W ilkinson, Scott <scott.wilkinson@hawks.com>; Charlene McGowan
<CMcGowan@law.ga.gov>; Ray S. Smith, Ill <rsmith@sm ithliss.com>; Harry MacDougald
<hmacdougald@cpdlawyers.com>; Hall, Adrick <ahall@sos.ga.gov>; George Koenig
<george@koeniglawgroup.com>
Subject: RE: State Farm Arena Video Links - Update
Hi,
RSS000001
You all should have a link in your email directing you to a location where the video files
are stored . You will need to download the "AvigilonPlayerStandAlone.exe" as well as the
video files to view the content. Let me know if you have any issues with the process.
Best,
Charles
From: Wilkinson, Scott <scott.wilkinson@hawks.com>

To: Charlene McGowan <CMcGowan@law.ga .gov>; Ray S. Smith, Ill
<rsm it h@smithliss.com>; Harry MacDougald <hmacdougald@cpdlawyers.com>; Hall,
Adrick <ahall@sos.ga.gov>; George Koenig <george@koeniglawgroup.com>
Cc: Gore, Charles <charles.gore@hawks.com>
At 95%!!!
This is way tougher than I estimated, obviously.

To: Charlene McGowan <CMcGowan@law.ga.gov>; Ray S. Smith, Ill
<rsmith@smit hliss.com>; Harry MacDougald <hmacdougald@cpdlawyers.com>; Hall,
Still going... you will have it minutes after it is finally completed. The email may come
directly from my IT VP, Charles Gore, copied here.

To: Charlene McGowan <CMcGowan@ law.ga .gov>; Ray S. Smith, Ill
<rsmith@smithliss.com>; Harry MacDougald <hmacdougald@cpdlawyers.com>; Hall,
Subject: Re: State Farm Arena Video Links - Update
Last large file is only at 10% as of now, will shoot for 1 pm with all files. Decided not to
do piecemeal. Sorry. Doing the best we can.
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 2, 2020, at 11:16 AM, Wilkinson, Scott

<scott.wilkinson@hawks.com> wrote:
Video is still loading from the transfer of data from the Arena Avigilon
system to OneDrive. It may not be completed by noon. I may send the
player and a few smaller files that are already downloaded and send the
others when the overall download is complete.
3
RSS000002

Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 9:54 AM
To: Charlene McGowan <CMcGowan@law.ga.gov>; Ray S. Smith, Ill
<rsmith@smithliss.com>; Harry MacDougald
<hmacdougald@cpdlawyers.com>; Hall, Ad rick <ahall@sos.ga .gov>;
George Koenig <george@koeniglawgroup.com>
Subject: State Farm Arena Video Links - Update
Everyone -
My staff is still loading video and will test the Onedrive links so this is
easy - we are still aiming for sending to you all around 12 noon. Please
limit update requests until then . We are working as fast as we can.
Thanks,
Scott
Scott Wilkinson
EVP & Chief Legal Officer
Atlanta Hawks & State Farm Arena
101 Marietta Street Suite 1900, Atlanta, GA 30303
T: 404-878-35251 F: 404-878-3541
scott.wilkinson@hawks.com
Atlanta Hawks / College Park Skyhawks / Hawks Talon GC I State Farm Arena
RSS000003
EXHIBIT 10
Page 1
1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2
RUBY FREEMAN and )
3 WANDREA MOSS, )
)
4 Plaintiffs, )
)
5 V. ) C.A. NO.: 21-3354
) (BAH)
6 RUDOLPH W. GIULIANI, )
)
7 Defendants. )
8
9
10
11
12
13 ********************************************************
14 ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
15 JACKI PICK
16 May 9, 2023
17 Volume 1
18 ********************************************************
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1 ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JACKI PICK,
2 produced as a witness at the instance of the Plaintiffs,
3 and duly sworn, was taken in the above-styled and
4 numbered cause on the 9th day of May, 2023, from
5 9:52 a.m. to 6:47 p.m., via videoconference, before
6 Abigail Guerra, CSR, in and for the State of Texas,
7 reported by machine shorthand, where all attendees
8 appeared via Zoom in their respective locations,
9 pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and the
10 provisions stated on the record or attached hereto.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2 (Appearing Remotely)
3
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS:
4
Ms. Meryl Governski
5 Ms. Logan Kenney
Ms. Maggie MacCurdy
6 WILLKIE FARR & GALLAGHER
1875 K Street
7 Washington, D.C. 20006
Phone: (202) 303-1000
8 Email: MGovernski@willkie.com
Lkenney@willkie.com
9 Mmaccurdy@willki.com
10
FOR THE DEFENDANT:
11
Mr. William G. Whitehill
12 CONDON TOBIN SLADEK THORNTON NERENBERG PLLC
8080 Park Lane
13 Suite 700
Dallas, Texas 75231
14 Phone: (214) 265-3862
Email: Bwhitehill@condontobin.com
15
- and -
16
Mr. Brett Tolman
17 THE TOLMAN GROUP
13827 Sprague Lane
18 Suite 220
Draper, Utah 84020
19 Phone: (801) 639-9840
Email: Brett@tolmangroup.com
20
ALSO PRESENT:
21 Mr. Gus Phillips, Videographer
22
23
24
25

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Great.
3 Can you please describe the circumstances
4 when you came to learn about the State Farm Arena video?
5 A. It was from discussions within the firm at
6 Smith Liss.
7 Q. On December 2nd or around what date?
8 A. I don't remember, but it had been talked about
9 since before December 2nd.
10 Q. When do you recall first learning about it?
11 A. I mean, sometime between when I arrived, which
12 was -- between September 17th and 19 somewhere and
13 December 2nd. I don't remember.
14 Q. Okay.
15 And what do you recall learning about it?
16 A. That, it would reveal the answer to the
17 question of whether or not counting had continued in
18 secret after the observers had left.
19 Q. And how did you come to learn that video would
20 exist shown on State Farm Arena Election Day?
21 A. Because Ray Smith was trying to get a copy of
22 it.
23 Q. And who was he trying to get a copy of it from?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. And what is your understanding of how Mr. Smith

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1 knew that there would be video to try to get?

2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. So you are unaware of the origins of the State
4 Farm Arena video?
5 MR. WHITEHILL: Object, vague.
6 A. Well, I mean, as much as I know about it as it
7 came from a security company that's responsible for
8 State Farm's security. It's literally the security
9 cameras that are there all the time.
10 Q. (BY MS. GOVERNSKI) Okay.
11 A. It wasn't there for the election. It wasn't
12 Fulton County's cameras. These were actual commercial
13 cameras.
14 Q. The State Farm Arena cameras that are set up
15 all the time?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Have you been to State Farm Arena?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay.
20 So you wouldn't know one or the other
21 whether it's fairly obvious that there's recording
22 taking place if you're in the State Farm Arena?
23 A. I wouldn't know.
24 Q. Okay.
25 How long is your understanding -- strike

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1 that.
2 What is your understanding of the length of
3 the State Farm Arena video with respect to what it
4 captures around the time of the presidential election?
5 A. Well, all that I know about is the actual video
6 that Ray Smith had, and it was -- I know it was longer
7 than 20 hours because I remember looking at it. It
8 started at about 6:00 a.m., November 3rd through -- to,
9 like, probably about 2:00 in the morning on
10 November 4th, but there was a lot more.
11 So I'm thinking it was closer to 40 hours.
12 I'm not totally sure.
13 Q. And was it straight? Was there any pauses
14 within that time period?
15 A. I didn't see any.
16 Q. Okay.
17 And -- so then it would be your
18 understanding that these videos captured everything that
19 happened within shot of those cameras on November 3rd
20 and November 4th until it stopped at some point on the
21 4th?
22 A. I don't know when it stopped on the 4th.
23 Q. But you're not aware of any time when the
24 recordings stopped in the middle of that period?
25 A. I am not.

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1 Q. And when -- when is your understanding of when
2 Mr. Smith obtained a copy of the State Farm Arena video?
3 A. I believe that that happened on December 2nd.
4 Q. And I believe your lawsuit discusses how it
5 took a long time to download because it was such a big
6 file.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. And when was the first the first time that you
9 were able to view it?
10 A. It was approximately 1:00 in the morning on --
11 Q. On --
12 A. -- December 3rd.
13 Q. And where were you at that point at 1:00 a.m.
14 on December 3rd?
15 A. At Smith Liss.
16 Q. How long had you been there the day before
17 December 3rd -- I guess, December 2nd and into the 3rd?
18 A. I don't remember when I arrived exactly. It
19 could be anywhere between, like -- well, I don't
20 remember if that was the day where I flew in.
21 I'm not sure when I got there, but it could
22 have been as early as 8:00 a.m. It could have been
23 later if that was my first day. No, it wouldn't have
24 been. It wouldn't have been because it would have been
25 a Wednesday.

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1 I'm not sure. I don't want to guess. I
2 don't remember.
3 Q. So do you recall what you were doing at the law
4 firm past midnight? Why were you were still there at
5 that hour?
6 A. Yeah. Because they were just at the verge of
7 filing the complaint. They were at the verge of ready
8 to file. It was just the finishing touches. They
9 wanted to get things done.
10 Q. And when you say "the complaint," you mean that
11 petition that was filed on December 3rd that we talked
12 about earlier?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay.
15 So do you remember what you were actually
16 working on while you were waiting for this video to
17 download?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay.
20 (Simultaneous cross-talk ensues.)
21 A. It would be something to help with the
22 complaint, but I don't know what I was doing
23 specifically.
24 Q. (BY MS. GOVERNSKI) Okay.
25 And can you describe kind of what happened

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1 when the video became available for viewing sometime
2 around 1:00 a.m. on December 3rd?
3 A. Yeah.
4 So Ray Smith -- I'm sorry. I have a voice
5 problem.
6 Ray Smith entered the conference room, I
7 think, around 1:00, and told us all that the video was
8 finally done downloading, and it was just like we had
9 been told. I believe his words were "the busy bees came
10 out and got to work."
11 So at that point, they cued it up on the
12 screen. Just like we have in this conference room here,
13 there was a screen. And the techs put it on the screen.
14 And then we watched it.
15 Q. And who was in the room?
16 A. So Ray was there for sure because he walked in
17 and announced it. Brittany Parks, who is, like, the
18 lady who handles the tech stuff.
19 I'm not 100 percent sure because, number
20 one, my memory's not great. So I'm going to put maybe
21 in front of these people's names because I'm not sure.
22 And let me add a caveat which is super
23 important. This went on for a couple of hours. So
24 people came and went.
25 Like, I don't remember who was present for

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1 what section of the video review. I would never be able
2 to remember that. All I can tell you is my, like,
3 snapshot memories of who was at some point or another, I
4 think.
5 So go back to Ray Smith came in to tell us
6 to get started. Brittany Parks cued it up on the
7 screen. I think Matthew Liss might have been there, but
8 I'm not 100 percent sure about that. I think Cletha
9 Mitchell was there for part of it. I think Alex Cogman
10 was there for part of it. I think Courtney Cramer was
11 there. Emilie Denmark for part of it; Patrick Witt;
12 Chris Gardner. That's all I remember right now.
13 Q. And of --
14 A. But, like I said, these people -- it's a big
15 conference room. It's like a common work area.
16 So if people leave to go get a cup of
17 coffee or use the restroom or go home or whatever, I
18 don't remember very clearly who all was there because I
19 didn't attribute a lot of significance to it at the
20 time.
21 Q. I understand. I understand.
22 So other than Cletha Mitchell, was
23 everybody else that you mentioned or that you recall
24 being there, someone who worked or volunteered directly
25 for Smith Liss?

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1 A. So the only person -- the Smith Liss people are
2 Emilie Denmark, Brittany, and Matthew. Maybe Courtney
3 because I'm thinking I remember that Courtney might have
4 a Smith Liss email. So she might have been a Smith Liss
5 employee. I'm not sure.
6 The other people, I'm not sure if they are
7 volunteers or if any of them were paid or not or
8 whatever. I just don't know their arrangement.
9 Q. And was Mr. Giuliani there?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Ms. Ellis?
12 A. No.
13 Q. At any point were either of them there?
14 A. I don't recall ever seeing them there at the
15 Smith Liss conference -- or the Smith Liss firm.
16 Q. And do you recall --
17 A. But then, again, I wasn't there all the time.
18 Q. Understood?
19 At any time when you were watching this
20 video after 1:00 a.m. on December 3rd, do you recall
21 Mr. Giuliani being patched into the call remotely?
22 A. No.
23 Q. I know you mentioned people coming and going.
24 Were you one of those people that came or went, or did
25 you stay the whole time?

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1 A. I don't remember. I might have gone to the
2 restroom. I don't know. I don't remember.
3 Q. That's fair.
4 So -- but, I mean, for the most part, you
5 were maybe going out to grab a cup of coffee or going to
6 the bathroom, but that was kind of your home base? If
7 you were working, you were in the conference room?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And I know it was late. It was 1:00 a.m.
10 How many hours were you watching the video
11 at that point?
12 A. I think we watched it for about two hours.
13 Q. So from about 1:00 a.m. to 3:00 a.m.?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And how did you know, kind of, what portions of
16 the video to watch? Like where did you start?
17 A. From the affidavit and from the press reports.
18 Q. Okay.
19 So the affidavit were your starting point?
20 A. Well, that would be the most important thing
21 because I needed to make sure -- or we needed to make
22 sure if we were going to put these affidavits in this
23 complaint or attachment, they better match this video.
24 So that was the most important.
25 But then, obviously, we'd all been reading

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1 the media for a long time. So we had some familiarity
2 with what had been reported, which, frankly, matched
3 about perfectly with the affidavit.
4 Q. So this is interesting. You talked of the
5 media reports a couple of times.
6 What specific media reports are you
7 referring to when you refer to media reports at the
8 time?
9 A. Well, I'm referring to, like, tweets by, like,
10 NBC, ABC, Atlanta Journal Constitution, 11Alive , and
11 then all of their reports from election night.
12 Q. And what was your recollection of what those
13 tweets or media reports were saying?
14 A. What they were staying?
15 Q. Uh-huh.
16 A. Is that what you said?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. So -- so, essentially, those media reports
19 corroborated the affidavits and the video. They all
20 matched.
21 In terms of, you know, Fulton County is
22 announcing they're shutting down counting for the night
23 and sending people home, and officials would not explain
24 why. Stuff like that.
25 Q. What other stuff? What specific allegations do

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1 you recall seeing in the press reports that you're
2 referencing?
3 A. Well, the most important thing is that the
4 press who were physically present at State Farm Arena
5 like standing right beside our observers -- because
6 that's where the officials put them, the observers and
7 the press were in the same little area that was roped
8 off -- they're all reporting that at approximately
9 10:00, an official said -- or I say they're all
10 reporting -- the majority of them are reporting. An
11 official announced around 10:00 that they'd be stopped
12 counting around 10:30 and be restarting the next
13 morning, and there were conflicting reports about why.
14 Q. So it wasn't clear -- I'm sorry.
15 A. Well, I mean, I was going to say, I don't have
16 good recall now about what ABC said versus what NBC said
17 versus what 11Alive said.
18 If you go back and look at their accounts,
19 you'll see all of that right there, and it matches just
20 about perfectly with the witness affidavits and the
21 video.
22 Q. So was there anything in those media reports
23 that went beyond what was in the affidavits or went
24 beyond what we've already discussed that was in the
25 affidavits?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did Mr. Smith tell you to act like Vanna White
3 or something to that effect?
4 A. No, he did not.
5 Q. No?
6 I --
7 A. No. I mean, I saw that in your questions, and
8 I thought it was kind of funny.
9 No, that was an office joke because
10 apparently I point like Vanna White. And I don't
11 remember if Ray Smith said that. I don't -- I don't
12 remember who said that first, but it's kind of a joke,
13 and so --
14 MR. WHITEHILL: When did that happen?
15 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
16 Q. (BY MS. GOVERNSKI) Before the testimony?
17 A. I don't -- I actually don't know.
18 I mean, because when we were watching the
19 video the night before, I was standing up at the screen
20 pointing at things. I don't remember.
21 Q. And in that context, someone, maybe not
22 Mr. Smith, alluded to Vanna White?
23 A. Someone made a joke about it and it stuck.
24 Q. Got it.
25 A. I think it was -- I think it was intended to be

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1 complimentary of me actually, maybe.
2 Q. And was that kind of how you would describe
3 what you thought your role was going into this, to be
4 Vanna White as to this video?
5 A. Well, I wasn't actually intending to point -- I
6 don't remember intending anything actually. The
7 chairman asked me to, please, get up and point at the
8 video as I went along. So, in fact, that was what I was
9 asked to do is show people what's happening.
10 To the extent that -- yeah, what I'm trying
11 to do is show what's happening on a four-frame screen.
12 And it's actually pretty confusing if you haven't looked
13 at it for two hours. So it was necessary to try to show
14 people what was what because it was all in the same room
15 actually because someone had to explain it.
16 Q. Right.
17 So is there anything that you recall about
18 the conversation that happened at 11:00 a.m. that we
19 haven't discussed?
20 A. There wasn't much to it, really.
21 Q. And between -- actually, how long did that
22 11:00 a.m. -- I don't know if I can call it a
23 "meeting" -- that 11:00 a.m. quick discussion, how long
24 was that?
25 A. You know what? It might have been less than a

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1 minute. I mean, it was very short.
2 Q. And --
3 A. And --
4 Q. You had the conversation, and you immediately
5 left the firm to go back to your hotel?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Okay.
8 And so at any point before the actual
9 hearing, did you talk with any individual who wasn't at
10 the law firm during that period that we've discussed?
11 A. Between when and when?
12 Q. Yeah, let me -- I'm sorry. That was not a good
13 question. So let me start over.
14 So at any point between 1:00 a.m. when you
15 received the video and when you arrived at the hearing
16 at 1:00 p.m. on December 3rd, have you talked to anyone
17 who wasn't physically at the law firm?
18 MR. WHITEHILL: Object, vague.
19 But go ahead.
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. (BY MS. GOVERNSKI) Do you recall discussing
22 your -- the State Farm Arena video with anyone outside
23 of the firm between 1:00 a.m. and the time you presented
24 at 1:00 p.m.?
25 A. I don't remember that.

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1 Q. And do you recall discussing the plan to
2 testify at the December 3rd hearing with anyone outside
3 the firm between 1:00 a.m. and the time that you
4 presented at 1:00 p.m.?
6 Q. Did you have any conversations with Rudy
7 Giuliani about the State Farm Arena video in advance of
8 the December 3rd hearing?
9 A. I do not remember communicating with Rudy other
10 than saying "hello" or "good morning" or something when
11 I saw him at the statehouse, and he actually didn't
12 speak back to me probably because he didn't know who I
13 was.
14 Q. So that's at the December 3rd hearing at the
15 statehouse?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. So prior to arriving at the December 3rd
18 hearing, did you have any conversations with
19 Mr. Giuliani other than the 2018 conversations we
20 discussed earlier?
21 A. I don't remember ever talking to him. I have
22 no recollection of talking to him.
23 Q. Do you have any recollection of ever talking to
24 Mr. Giuliani about the State Farm Arena video before you
25 arrived at the statehouse on December 3rd?

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2 Q. And do you remember ever talking to Ms. Ellis
3 in advance of the December 3rd hearing, I guess, at all?
4 A. I don't have any recollection of ever meeting
5 her.
6 Q. I know we talked earlier about the individuals
7 connected with Mr. Giuliani including Mr. Kerik.
8 Do you recall having any conversations with
9 Mr. Kerik about anything in advance of the December 3rd
10 hearing?
11 A. You mean related to the December 3rd hearing or
12 related to Georgia?
13 Q. Well, let's start broader. Related to
14 anything.
15 Have you ever talked to Mr. Kerik at all?
16 A. Yes.
17 I have met him through my husband.
18 Q. And when was that?
19 A. Different friends. They do --
20 I would say, like, 2018 or something like
21 that because I know they've been on stage together
22 before -- or not stage. I remember them doing a press
23 conference along with, like, 20 other people in
24 Washington about criminal justice reform. They're both,
25 like, really into that. So they're friends.

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1 And, you know, I think I'd run into him,
2 like, two or three times between when I first met him
3 and December 3rd, but that would have been in the
4 context of my husband in particular. So it was more of
5 a contact of my husband than mine. So, yeah.
6 Q. And do you ever communicate to Mr. Giuliani or
7 Mr. Kerik kind of through your husband?
8 A. Well, not Mr. Giuliani.
9 My husband, I don't know when's the last
10 time they ever communicated, but maybe Mr. Kerik; but I
11 don't remember now. I can't remember doing that.
12 Q. And --
13 A. Would I have said, hey, hello. Maybe. I don't
14 know.
15 Q. But nothing substantive that you can recall?
16 A. Well, the only thing substantive, I think, that
17 you have a copy of it is Mr. Kerik sent a copy of the
18 Giuliani Strategic Communications Plan to me and my
19 husband on July 27th.
20 MR. WHITEHILL: The question is before
21 December 3rd.
22 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry.
23 A. I don't remember sending any messages to Bernie
24 through my husband before December 3rd.
25 Q. (BY MS. GOVERNSKI) I appreciate --

212-267-6868 www.veritext.com 516-608-2400
Page 140
1 A. I have no recollection of that.
2 Q. I appreciate your thoroughness. We will
3 definitely get to that document.
4 But for present purposes, do you recall
5 speaking with Mr. Kerik prior December 3rd, 2020, about
6 the 2020 election?
7 A. Yes.
8 Well, I don't recall speaking to him. I
9 don't remember if I had any conversations with him
10 personally, but I remember thinking that he was working
11 for -- or with a different legal team. I have a middle
12 impression -- not Giuliani. Somebody completely
13 different.
14 And so I learned about that somehow or I
15 had an impression for some reason. So I don't remember
16 specifically what, but that was not -- it has nothing to
17 do with -- I don't remember discussing Georgia or Ruby
18 Freeman or anything like that, but I remember thinking
19 he was working on the election.
20 Q. So you remember seeing that he was working on
21 some election effort.
22 Do you recall having conversations with him
23 about those election efforts?
24 A. I can't remember talking to Bernie about it.
25 He and I talked about something a little different that

212-267-6868 www.veritext.com 516-608-2400
Excerpted
Page 332
1
3 RUBY FREEMAN and )
WANDREA MOSS, )
4 )
Plaintiffs, )
5 )
V. ) C.A. NO.: 21-3354
6 ) (BAH)
RUDOLPH W. GIULIANI, )
7 )
Defendants. )
8
9
10 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION
DEPOSITION OF JACKI PICK
11 May 9, 2023
12 That the deposition transcript was delivered
13 to Ms. Meryl Governski.
14 That a copy of this certificate was served on
15 all parties and/or the witness shown herein on
16 ________________.
17 I further certify that pursuant to FRCP
18 Rule 30(f)(1) that the signature of the deponent:
19 ____ was requested by the deponent or a party
20 before the completion of the deposition and that
21 signature is to be before any notary public and returned
22 within 30 days from date of receipt of the transcript.
23 If returned, the attached Changes and
24 Signature Page contains any changes and the reasons
25 therefore:

212-267-6868 www.veritext.com 516-608-2400
Page 333
1 ____ was not requested by the deponent or a

2 party before the completion of the deposition.
3 I certify that I am neither counsel for,
4 related to, nor employed by any of the parties or
5 attorneys in the action in which this proceeding was
6 taken, and further that I am not financially or
7 otherwise interested in the outcome of the action.
8 Certified to by me this 15th day of May,
9 2023.
10
11
12
14
ABIGAIL GUERRA, Texas CSR 9059
15 Expiration Date: 02/28/24
VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS
16 Firm Registration No. 571
300 Throckmorton Street
17 Suite 1600
Fort Worth, Texas 76102
18 Phone: (817) 336-3042
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

212-267-6868 www.veritext.com 516-608-2400
EXHIBIT 11
Coordinat Attachme
Direction Source Type Time stamp (New York) Text From To Details EXIF XMP IPTC Metadata VCard
es nl
Incoming App le iMessage 12(7(2020 12:54 Team - Boris Epshteyn + 16095299982, N/A Source fil e:
Messages < +16095299982> +1303720937,t, / p rivate/var/mobile/Li
+12023301661 , b rary/SMS/sms d b
+13472371202, Source fil e size: 325
+ 19172979169, MB
+ 12022567940 Source table
< iMessage; +;chat3978805 Message, Chat
54613687051 > Read (New York):
12/ 07(2020 12:54:28
PM (UTC-5)
Status: Read
Remote party:
+ 16095299982,
+ 13037209374,
+12023301661,
+ 13472371202,
+19172979169,
• •• •o o c , , . , .
Incoming App le iMessage 12(7/2020 12:54 Urgent POTUS request need best examples of "electio n Boris Epshteyn +16095299982, N/A Source fil e:
Me ssages fraud" that we've a lleged that 's rnper easy to ex plain < +16095299982> +13037209374, / private/var/mobile/Li
+12023301 661, b rary/SMS/sms db
Doesn't necessa rily have to be proven, but does need to -t- 13472371202, Source fil e size: 325
be easy to und erstand +19172979169, MB
+12022 567940 Source table
Is the re any sort of •g reat est hits• clearingho use that < iMessage; +;chat3978805 Message, Chat
anyone has for best examples? 54613687051 > Read (New York)·
12/07(2020 12:54:28
Thank you! !! PM (UTC-5)
Status: Read
Remote party:
+ 16095299982.
+ 13037209374,
t· 12023301661,
+ 13472371202,
+ 19172979169,
• ' "'" " ' -•
Incoming Ap ple iMessage 12(7/2020 12:54 (Orig inal text fro m Jason, add ing him ) Boris Epshteyn + 16095299982, N/A Source fil e:
Messages < +16095299982 > +13037209374, / p rivate/var/ mo bile/Li
+12023301661, brary/SMS/s111s d b
+ 13472371202, Source fil e size: 325
+19172979769, MB
< iMessage;+;chat3978805 Message, Chat
54613687051 > Read (N ew York)'
12/ 07/2020 12:54:38
PM (UTC-5)
Status: Read
Re mote party:
+ 16095299982,
+13037209374,
+ 12023301661,
+ 13472371 2 02,
+19172979169,
• - • • • c • - ••
BOBB FM 0352.001
Coordinat Attachme
es nl
Incoming App le iMessage 12/7/2020 12:54 N/A Boris Epshteyn + 16095299982, N/A Source file:
Messages < + 16095299982 > + 1303720937,t, / private/var/mobile/Li
+12023301661, brary/SMS/sms db
+13472371202, Source file size: 325
+ 19172979169, MB
+12022567940 Source table
< iMessage; +;chat3978805 Message, Chat
54613687051 > Status: Un read
Rem ote party:
t- 16095299982,
+ 13037209374,
+ 1202330166 1,
-
+ 13472371202,
+19172979169,
BOBB FM 0352.002
Coordinat Attachme
es nl
Incoming App le iMessage 12/7/2020 12:57 The sec urity camera in Atlanta alo ne captu res theft of a Rudy Giuliani + 16095299982, N/A Source file:
Messages minimum of 30,000 votes which alone wo uld chang e < +19172979169> +1303720937,t, / private/var/mobile/Li
result in Georgia Re mem ber it will live in history as the +12023301661, brary/SMS/sms db
theft of a state if it is not corrected by Sta te Legislature +13472371202, Source file size: 325
+ 19172979169, MB
<iMessage; +;chat3978805 Message, Chat
54613687051 > Read (New York):
12/07/2020 12:57:48
PM (UTC- 5)
Status: Read
Remote party:
+ 16095299982,
+ 13037209374,
+1 2023301661,
+ 13472371202,
+19 172979169,
+ 12022567940
lnconuna App le iMessage 12/7/2020 13:22 Rudy Giuliani +16095299982, NIA Source fil e:
Messages <+1 9172979169> + 13037209374, / private/var/mobile/Li
+12023301661, brary/SMS/sms db
+13472371202, Source tile size: 325
+19172979169, MB
+ 12022567940 Source table:
GA, the state recorded <iMessage; +;chat3978805 Message, Chat
54613687051 > Read (New York)·
12/07/2020 01 :22:30
PM (UTC-5)
Status: Read
Rem ot e party:
+ 16095299982,
+ 1303720937"'1,
+12023301661,
+13472371202,
+ 19172979169,
+ 12022567940
BOBB FM 0352.003
EXHIBIT 12

Plaintiffs, Civil Action No. 21-3354 (BAH)
Defendant.
RESPONSES TO FIFTH (CORRECTED) REQUESTS FOR ADMISSION
Defendant serves his Responses to Plaintiffs’ Fifth (Corrected) Requests for Admission as follows:
RFA 115 Admit that the video attached at this link

(https://web.archive.org/web/20201227112315/https:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=u
I0kI7JTPNo&feature=youtu.be), shared on Twitter by Mr. Bernard Kerik on
December 6, 2020 at this link
(https://twitter.com/BernardKerik/status/1335454459971956737?s=20) is the footage
You were referring to during your Deposition as the “separate video,” (Tr. 187:3),You
were shown that was the basis of Your statements described in the Amended
Complaint at ¶¶ 90-91, 94.
Response: Defendant is without sufficient information to admit or deny this Request as he does
not recall exactly which version of these videos he was referring to in his deposition.
RFA 116 Admit that You reviewed at least one Trump Campaign Advertisement prior to it
being aired or posted online in December 2020.
not recall whether he viewed any such Advertisement before airing or posting.
RFA 117 Admit that You reviewed some of the Trump Campaign Advertisements prior to them
not recall whether he viewed any such Advertisements before airing or posting.
RFA 118 Admit that You reviewed all of the Trump Campaign Advertisements prior to them
not recall whether he viewed any such Advertisements before airing or posting.
RFA 119 Admit that You Consulted On at least one Trump Campaign Advertisement prior to it
not recall whether he was consulted on any aired or posted Advertisements before
airing.
RFA 120 Admit that You Consulted On some of the Trump Campaign Advertisements prior to
them being aired or posted online in December 2020.
airing.
RFA 121 Admit that You Consulted On all of the Trump Campaign Advertisements prior to
them being aired or posted online in December 2020.
airing.
RFA 122 Admit that You reviewed at least one Trump Campaign Advertisement that used footage
of Plaintiffs at State Farm Arena, prior to it being aired or posted online in December
2020.
airing.
RFA 123 Admit that You reviewed some of the Trump Campaign Advertisements that used footage
of Plaintiffs at State Farm Arena, prior to them being aired or posted online in December
2020.
airing.
RFA 124 Admit that You reviewed all of the Trump Campaign Advertisements that used footage
of Plaintiffs at State Farm Arena, prior to them being aired or posted online in December
2020.
airing.
RFA 125 Admit that You Consulted On at least one Trump Campaign Advertisement that used
footage of Plaintiffs at State Farm Arena, prior to it being aired or posted online in
December 2020.
airing.
RFA 126 Admit that You Consulted On some of the Trump Campaign Advertisements that used
footage of Plaintiffs at State Farm Arena, prior to them being aired or posted online in
December 2020.
airing.
RFA 127 Admit that You Consulted On all of the Trump Campaign Advertisements that used
footage of Plaintiffs at State Farm Arena, prior to them being aired or posted online in
December 2020.
airing.
RFA 128 Admit that You reviewed the Trump Campaign Advertisement available at this link
(https://twitter.com/TeamTrump/status/1341760977470062597), or versions of that
advertisement, prior to it being aired or posted online.
airing.
RFA 129 Admit that You Consulted On the Trump Campaign Advertisement available at this link
(https://twitter.com/TeamTrump/status/1341760977470062597), or versions of that
advertisement, prior to it being aired or posted online.
airing.
RFA 130 Admit that You reviewed the Trump Campaign Advertisement available at this link:
(https://twitter.com/i/status/1341825401371430913), or versions of that advertisement,
prior to it being aired or posted online.
airing.
RFA 131 Admit that You Consulted On the Trump Campaign advertisement available at this link:
(https://twitter.com/i/status/1341825401371430913), or versions of that advertisement,
prior to it being aired or posted online.
airing.
RFA 132 Admit that You and/or Your legal team provided examples of alleged election fraud to
the Trump Campaign to be used in Campaign advertisements.
not know what all information his legal team for the Trump Campaign provided to the
Campaign and what information provided was used in advertisements. Defendant
denies that he provided information to the Trump Campaign for the purpose of using
the information in advertisements.
RFA 133 Admit that You and/or Your legal team provided information about the Plaintiffs to the
Trump Campaign to be used in Campaign Advertisements.
RFA 134 Admit that You and/or Your legal team provided information about State Farm Arena to
the Trump Campaign to be used in Campaign Advertisements.
RFA 135 Admit that one of the motivations of the Trump Campaign Advertisements available at
these links (https://twitter.com/TeamTrump/status/1341760977470062597;
https://twitter.com/i/status/1341825401371430913) was to put pressure on state officials
to recall electors and delay Congress from certifying the results on January 6, 2021.
not have personal knowledge of the motivations of the Trump Campaign or its
utilization of advertisements.
Respectfully submitted,
By: /s/ Joseph D. Sibley IV
CAMARA & SIBLEY L.L.P.
Joseph D. Sibley IV
DC Bar ID: TX0202
1108 Lavaca St.

Suite 110263
Austin, TX 78701
Telephone: (713) 966-6789

Fax: (713) 583-1131
ATTORNEYS FOR RUDOLPH GIULIANI
I hereby certify that on this 5th day of July, 2023, I served the foregoing via email.
/s/ Joseph D. Sibley IV

Joseph D. Sibley IV
2
EXHIBIT 13

Defendant.
[PROPOSED] ORDER GRANTING PLAINTIFFS’ MOTION FOR DISCOVERY

SANCTIONS AGAINST DEFENDANT GIULIANI FOR FAILURE TO PRESERVE
ELECTRONIC EVIDENCE
Upon consideration of Plaintiffs’ Motion for Discovery Sanctions Against Defendant
Giuliani for Failure to Preserve Electronic Evidence (the “Motion”) it is hereby:
ORDERED that the Motion is GRANTED; and it is
FURTHER ORDERED that default judgment is awarded to Plaintiffs on Defendant
Giuliani’s liability with respect to all of Plaintiffs’ claims, leaving only the issue of the quantum
of damages for trial;
[OR, IN THE ALTERNATIVE, FURTHER ORDERED that the following adverse
inferences are established for the purposes of this action:
1. Defendant Giuliani spoliated significant relevant evidence contained on his personal

and professional devices and personal and professional accounts.
2. Prior to December 23, 2020, Defendant Giuliani acted with reckless disregard for the
truth by avoiding and ignoring, or knew and understood, the falsity of the following
statements: (1) Ruby Freeman has a criminal history; (2) Ruby Freeman and/or Shaye
Moss excluded election observers from State Farm Arena under false pretenses,
including but not limited to, because of a fake water leak; (3) Ruby Freeman and/or
Shaye Moss locked the doors to State Farm Arena to keep election observers out; (4)
Ruby Freeman and/or Shaye Moss passed each other a USB drive to illegally
manipulate the vote count; (5) Ruby Freeman and/or Shaye Moss counted ballots
multiple times; (6) Ruby Freeman and/or Shaye Moss hid suitcases of illegal ballots;
(7) Ruby Freeman and/or Shaye Moss engaged in voter fraud (together, the
“Defamatory Claims”).
3. Prior to December 23, 2020, Defendant Giuliani acted with reckless disregard for the
truth by avoiding and ignoring, or knew and understood, that Georgia and federal
officials had investigated and disproved the Defamatory Claims (with the exception of
the claims regarding USB drives), because the investigations and their findings were:
(1) widely published and reported on, (2) sent to Defendant Giuliani, (3) freely and
easily accessible to any member of the public, and (4) directly relevant to the
Defamatory Claims.
4. Defendant Giuliani acted with reckless disregard for the truth by avoiding and ignoring,
or knew and understood, that the Defamatory Claims were false because: (1) Defendant
Giuliani and his team had consciously avoided investigating the purported basis for the
Defamatory claims; (2) Defendant Giuliani and his team had no credible evidence or
sources supporting the Defamatory Claims; and (3) Defendant Giuliani and his team
pursued the Defamatory Claims based on political and public relations objectives rather
than a belief that the Defamatory Claims were truthful in fact.
5. Defendant Giuliani published and spread the Defamatory Claims for his personal
benefit, including his political, professional, and financial interests.
6. Defendant Giuliani knew his actions would cause Plaintiffs emotional distress and
nonetheless intentionally and recklessly proceeded.
7. Defendant Giuliani made an agreement with his then-client, President Donald Trump,
along with other individuals working for or volunteering with President Trump and his
campaign, to publish the Defamatory Claims.
8. Before publishing the Defamatory Claims, Defendant Giuliani knew that each
Defamatory Claim he made on his podcasts, his radio show, during interviews with
One America News Network, on Twitter, and through other mediums, could
potentially be heard by tens of millions of individuals, and intended his Defamatory
Claims to be heard by as many people as possible; and it is
FURTHER ORDERED that Defendant Giuliani is prohibited from:
1. arguing, in summary judgment, at trial, or otherwise, that anything contained in the

Electronic Evidence ever existed or would have supported his defense,
2. offering evidence, in summary judgment, at trial, or otherwise, about the contents of

the Electronic Evidence, and
3. arguing, in summary judgment, at trial, or otherwise, the reach of the Defamatory

Claims, including, but not limited to, the number of impressions, views, or clicks
estimated by Plaintiffs’ damages expert.]
-2-
FURTHER ORDERED that Plaintiffs are awarded reasonable costs associated with the
filing of the Motion, that Plaintiffs shall submit an accounting of such costs within fourteen (14)
days of this Order, and that such costs be paid within fourteen (14) days thereafter.
IT IS SO ORDERED.
___________________ _____________________________________________
Date Beryl A. Howell, Judge
United States District Court for the District of Columbia
-3-

Freeman Motion For Sanctions

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Case 1:21-cv-03354-BAH Document 81 Filed 07/11/23 Page 1 of 44

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

RUBY FREEMAN, et al.,

Plaintiffs, Case No. 1:21-cv-03354 (BAH)

v. Judge Beryl A. Howell

PLAINTIFFS’ MOTION FOR DISCOVERY SANCTIONS AGAINST DEFENDANT

Beck v. Test Masters Educ. Servs.,

Borum v. Brentwood Vill., LLC,

Butera v. District of Columbia,

Done v. District of Columbia,

Guarantee Co. of N. Am. USA v. Lakota Contracting Inc.,

Harte-Hanks Commc’ns, Inc. v. Connaughton,

Jim S. Adler, P.C. v. McNeil Consultants, LLC,

Klayman v. Judicial Watch,

Mannina v. District of Columbia,

N.Y. Times Co. v. Sullivan,

St. Amant v. Thompson,

U.S. Bank Nat’l Ass’n v. Poblete,

United States v. Philip Morris USA, Inc.,

US Dominion, Inc. v. Powell,

Victor Stanley, Inc. v. Creative Pipe, Inc.,

Wash. Metro. Area Transit Comm’n v. Reliable Limousine Serv., LLC,

Webb v. District of Columbia,

Zhi Chen v. District of Columbia.,

Fed. R. Civ. P. 37(e) ..................................................................................................................................... 1

Fed. R. Civ. P. 37(e)(1) ......................................................................................................................... 14, 15

Fed. R. Civ. P. 37(e)(2) ................................................................................................................... 14, 16, 30

WILLFULNESS, Black’s Law Dictionary (11th ed. 2019) ........................................................................ 30

investigation of Defendant Giuliani’s claims, quickly concluded those investigations, and

avoided further inquiry, instead choosing to continue publishing his accusations—sometimes

reputations and brazenly disregarding the truth.

Defendant Giuliani conspired with others to do the same.

RELEVANT FACTUAL BACKGROUND

Giuliani did not provide a response to that question. (Id.)

During Defendant Giuliani’s deposition on March 1, 2023, Plaintiffs specifically inquired

get anything off” of those devices. (Id. at 391:23–392:11.)

attempts to preserve electronic evidence. ECF No. 38.

Everything after that -- I mean, I think he test- -- I think he answered an

(Id. at 11:3–21 (emphasis added).)

searches to be completed to respond fully to Plaintiffs’ RFPs. March 21 Minute Order. In

No. 40; see ECF No. 44 at 11.

2021. ECF No. 51 at 3–6.

Decl. ¶ 3; Ex. 3.)

A production from one of Defendant Giuliani’s assistants, third-party Christianne Allen,

yielded a December 7, 2020, email from a Fox News reporter to “press@giulianipartners.com,”

6, 2020, affidavit, specifically addressing and refuting Defendant Giuliani’s claims:

Does Mayor Giuliani have any comment on this?

far as Plaintiffs can discern).

can discern). (Gottlieb Decl. ¶ 4.)

others. The thread reads:

Mr. Epshteyn (12:54 p.m. ET): Team –

(1) file a declaration, subject to penalty of perjury, that details:

on his “email, messaging, communication, or other document storage platforms” (without

paper files.” Id. ¶ 2.

them, it is limited to whatever communications DOJ happened to extract from whatever

non-readable computer code; emails advertising a year-long spiritual apprenticeship course;

Defendant Giuliani’s failure to sufficiently preserve discoverable information and directed

for Leave to File a Motion for Sanctions.