not to be a killjoy but it's still crazy to me that it's considered mean to be like "maybe you should read / play / watch the source material before creating fanworks and diving into the fandom" bc every time i see somebody going "i havent played disco elysium or know anything about it tbh but uwu here's harry and kim kissing" idk maybe you should engage with it. maybe you should play the anti-capitalist surrealist game where you investigate the murder of a mercenary who led the gang rape of a foreign girl and process that for a bit? and then you can do cutesy mlm or whatever idc. but like at the absolute bare minimum you should understand what the source material involves otherwise we get the phenomenon of people joining a dragon age server and wanting content warnings for like, mage racism. like it's fine to ship and transform the genre into whatever but if you arent comfortable with discussions of the actual source content itself then maybe the fandom isnt for you and a different one is. peace and love.

actual peace and love would involve letting anyone who wants to do things do them, without judgment.

I don't think there is anything unreasonable about the idea that if someone isn't comfortable with actual discussions of the source material they should probably not insert themselves into the fandom. And I struggle to see how this has anything to do with ableism as per your tags.

Well, when you demand a certain amount of effort to be input before you consider someone's creative work valid, that's ableist.

The issue at hand isn't one of the validity of transformative works (and I agree with you there that art doesn't derive meaning or validity from the amount of "effort" poured into it) but of fandom social dynamics and the very simple fact that people involved in a fandom will find people who have not engaged with the source material yet insist on inserting themselves into the fandom annoying. This user articulated it well imo and I'm tired right now:

Unfortunately it's still gatekeeping and still ableist.

This person runs a pro generative AI fic blog. I'm a genAI nuance enjoyer but I think they just figure anyone asking them to do anything challenging at all whatsoever is ableist.

Anyone holding something like "being able to participate in a fandom" out of reach until someone has done enough homework to get into your little clique is ableist and I'm not going to stop saying it isn't. It isn't about what is said to me or what I consider challenging. It's about people saying that you can't create fanart of characters until you've "engaged with the media", which in a lot of fandoms means, seen every single episode read every single book played every single level and all the DLC. That is a ridiculous thing to demand. And it is a demand that you might have more trouble meeting based on ability... so yeah. "You have to engage with it before you say anything about the series" is ableist.

Tell me, where's your line? How tall is your "must watch/read/play this much to ride" sign? How much does someone have to do to be granted access and deemed worthy by your righteous fucking self?

Holy shit, you're still stubbornly repeating that same nonsense argument?

God, I swear, you focused solely on the "drawing shipping fanart without playing the game" part and missed the entire goddamn greater point of the post. (i.e. the whole "joining fandoms while refusing to engage with the source material leads to bad takes and unreasonable demands" thing)

I cannot think of a single fandom in which everyone universally agrees that you must have thoroughly consumed every piece of media to do with that fandom before you're allowed to join. That is not a mindset that any reasonable person would hold, and only describes the most elitist gatekeepy fucks that nobody likes anyway. Like seeing someone wearing a band t-shirt and demanding they "name five songs/albums" or they're "not a real fan".

I can guarantee, most fandoms are absolutely open and accepting to new fans who have no or little familiarity with the media in question, as long as they're engaging in good faith. Hell, they'll even give recommendations on where to start if it's a particularly big franchise. As a personal example, I wanted to get into Star Trek, but it's such a vast franchise I had no clue where to start, so I asked someone in the fandom. 11 episodes into The Next Generation, I can absolutely say that I like Star Trek, and I think all but the aforementioned elitists would agree I'm part of the fandom now.

There is genuinely nothing wrong or harmful about drawing fanart of a character just because you like their design, even if you've only seen maybe one or two episodes at most, or maybe even none at all. But if you wanna discuss the characters/themes/etc. of any given work, then you kinda need to have actually seen it for yourself or your takes will most likely be ill informed at best and blatantly incorrect at worst.

And if you're completely unwilling, not unable, unwilling to engage with the work and its themes at all, then maybe it's not the fandom for you. 🤷And if so, that's okay. Not every piece of media is made for you, and that's fine.

I'm really glad that you've been able to find fandoms that are welcoming. But that example you mentioned about being asked to name songs when you wear a band shirt? Real thing that really happens. Happens with fandoms too. The reason I used the original example was that-- correct me if I'm wrong, maybe it wasn't you, but I'm thinking it's you on the other post too?-- trying to explain with other examples doesn't seem to make sense to people either.

If someone likes the aesthetic or the characters of a fandom but doesn't want to engage with the "darker themes", that's their right as a fan. You can get into requests that are unreasonable, sure, but most of the time the answer to that is the same as it would be if they were well versed in the fandom: people who tend to avoid certain topics grouping together. Are you saying that people in a fandom don't have triggers, don't have things about it that bother them? That can't be what you're getting at, right?

A fandom that might be a good example here is Game of Thrones. If someone wanted to draw art of the dragons and heraldry, but it turned out that they really couldn't stand any discussions of SA, *they're still a fan*. Same as *any other fan*. They engage with the fandom in a way you clearly don't approve of, but you aren't the arbiter of who is a real fan and who isn't, who gets to be "in" and who doesn't. Maybe they find a group to talk about other parts of the series with. Maybe they just stick to fanart. But they are still a fan and they are still participating in that fandom.

Write it shitty, write it scared, write it without a clue but don't you be so spineless and have an AI write fanfic for you.

Write it with AI and be happy, and make this person using ableist insults really mad.

6/10 rage bait

I don't actually have the energy to screenshot your tags but AI isn't theft any more than collage or photography.

a troll account is supposed to be funny btw

Oh, is that why yours is so hilarious?

oh so you think i’m funny <3

I mean, yeah, a little bit, in that "reactionary rhetoric is like watching slapstick" way.

did you ask chatgpt to write that response? it’s shit

I wrote it myself, as I've said multiple times, standing up to bullies like you is one of the only things I have energy for online right now. Prompting an AI for responses is actually a lot of work, work that I'm not able to put in.

oh so you can think for yourself.

Yep, never said I couldn't. I lack the energy and executive function to do creative stuff, and really miss it, but for now at least I can still do advocacy work. Also, per your tags, it actually does take a lot of time, effort, and practice to create with AI. You should look it up sometime instead of listening to everyone chanting "theft machine theft machine" over and over.

if even half the time you spend arguing on tumblr with people who already consider you to be a total loser was spent working on creative pursuits, i'm sure your writing would improve.

I wish it worked that way, I really do. Your tags mention robbing myself of the joy of creating. I remember that joy. But there's a mental wall around it right now. Exhaustion, depression, and executive dysfunction all play a role. And it really sucks. I used to write a lot, draw a lot. I just can't anymore. But at least I can still stand up to bullies online and defend the vulnerable from people like you.

why giving up on yourself, mate, you still could do all of that just give yourself time. Also seeing ai pseudo-perfect result is far more discouraging then getting your own results - even if it's not perfect your brain literally gonna reward you for the effort, so in the long run you benefit from it. ai won't help you in that, i assure you.

My brain doesn't do that, it doesn't make dopamine the same way it's supposed to. Besides, I thought this way before creative block and nothing gives me the feeling that I won't still feel this way if I ever break through it. I still think everyone deserves the chance to express themselves.

Write it shitty, write it scared, write it without a clue but don't you be so spineless and have an AI write fanfic for you.

Write it with AI and be happy, and make this person using ableist insults really mad.

6/10 rage bait

I don't actually have the energy to screenshot your tags but AI isn't theft any more than collage or photography.

a troll account is supposed to be funny btw

Oh, is that why yours is so hilarious?

oh so you think i’m funny <3

I mean, yeah, a little bit, in that "reactionary rhetoric is like watching slapstick" way.

did you ask chatgpt to write that response? it’s shit

I wrote it myself, as I've said multiple times, standing up to bullies like you is one of the only things I have energy for online right now. Prompting an AI for responses is actually a lot of work, work that I'm not able to put in.

oh so you can think for yourself.

Yep, never said I couldn't. I lack the energy and executive function to do creative stuff, and really miss it, but for now at least I can still do advocacy work. Also, per your tags, it actually does take a lot of time, effort, and practice to create with AI. You should look it up sometime instead of listening to everyone chanting "theft machine theft machine" over and over.

if even half the time you spend arguing on tumblr with people who already consider you to be a total loser was spent working on creative pursuits, i'm sure your writing would improve.

I wish it worked that way, I really do. Your tags mention robbing myself of the joy of creating. I remember that joy. But there's a mental wall around it right now. Exhaustion, depression, and executive dysfunction all play a role. And it really sucks. I used to write a lot, draw a lot. I just can't anymore. But at least I can still stand up to bullies online and defend the vulnerable from people like you.

i dare you to open google docs right now and write ten words. or better yet, pick up a pencil and paper and draw a stick figure. whatever you come up with is infinitely better than whatever you can prompt a computer to regurgitate.

If I can't get around the mental block for me, what makes you think I can do it for you? I appreciate you not being unsympathetic, but I'm still going to have a different take from you. Even if/when I start to feel better, and make art again, I'll still feel this way. I did before things got too bad to be creative, and I don't see it changing.

That so many of the complaints about AI art as something truly horrible and soulless are centered around ghibli-esque AI art specifically is so.... people realize why ghibli-esque AI got so popular in the first place, right? Because well before image generators, there was already a huge mass-market industry of people making "X in ghibli style?"

It's not like that was a golden age of true artistic creativity that's now lost. Are we gonna pretend that the Hot Topic t-shirts of "My Neighbor Heisenberg" or whatever expresses more "soul" than what people are making with AI? Are we supposed to bemoan how the easy-clicks listicle of "the Glee cast if they were in Spirited Away" is being created by an image generator rather than an underpaid staff cartoonist?

Write it shitty, write it scared, write it without a clue but don't you be so spineless and have an AI write fanfic for you.

Write it with AI and be happy, and make this person using ableist insults really mad.

6/10 rage bait

I don't actually have the energy to screenshot your tags but AI isn't theft any more than collage or photography.

a troll account is supposed to be funny btw

Oh, is that why yours is so hilarious?

oh so you think i’m funny <3

I mean, yeah, a little bit, in that "reactionary rhetoric is like watching slapstick" way.

did you ask chatgpt to write that response? it’s shit

I wrote it myself, as I've said multiple times, standing up to bullies like you is one of the only things I have energy for online right now. Prompting an AI for responses is actually a lot of work, work that I'm not able to put in.

oh so you can think for yourself.

Yep, never said I couldn't. I lack the energy and executive function to do creative stuff, and really miss it, but for now at least I can still do advocacy work. Also, per your tags, it actually does take a lot of time, effort, and practice to create with AI. You should look it up sometime instead of listening to everyone chanting "theft machine theft machine" over and over.

if even half the time you spend arguing on tumblr with people who already consider you to be a total loser was spent working on creative pursuits, i'm sure your writing would improve.

I wish it worked that way, I really do. Your tags mention robbing myself of the joy of creating. I remember that joy. But there's a mental wall around it right now. Exhaustion, depression, and executive dysfunction all play a role. And it really sucks. I used to write a lot, draw a lot. I just can't anymore. But at least I can still stand up to bullies online and defend the vulnerable from people like you.

not to be a killjoy but it's still crazy to me that it's considered mean to be like "maybe you should read / play / watch the source material before creating fanworks and diving into the fandom" bc every time i see somebody going "i havent played disco elysium or know anything about it tbh but uwu here's harry and kim kissing" idk maybe you should engage with it. maybe you should play the anti-capitalist surrealist game where you investigate the murder of a mercenary who led the gang rape of a foreign girl and process that for a bit? and then you can do cutesy mlm or whatever idc. but like at the absolute bare minimum you should understand what the source material involves otherwise we get the phenomenon of people joining a dragon age server and wanting content warnings for like, mage racism. like it's fine to ship and transform the genre into whatever but if you arent comfortable with discussions of the actual source content itself then maybe the fandom isnt for you and a different one is. peace and love.

actual peace and love would involve letting anyone who wants to do things do them, without judgment.

I don't think there is anything unreasonable about the idea that if someone isn't comfortable with actual discussions of the source material they should probably not insert themselves into the fandom. And I struggle to see how this has anything to do with ableism as per your tags.

Well, when you demand a certain amount of effort to be input before you consider someone's creative work valid, that's ableist.

The issue at hand isn't one of the validity of transformative works (and I agree with you there that art doesn't derive meaning or validity from the amount of "effort" poured into it) but of fandom social dynamics and the very simple fact that people involved in a fandom will find people who have not engaged with the source material yet insist on inserting themselves into the fandom annoying. This user articulated it well imo and I'm tired right now:

Unfortunately it's still gatekeeping and still ableist.

This person runs a pro generative AI fic blog. I'm a genAI nuance enjoyer but I think they just figure anyone asking them to do anything challenging at all whatsoever is ableist.

Anyone holding something like "being able to participate in a fandom" out of reach until someone has done enough homework to get into your little clique is ableist and I'm not going to stop saying it isn't. It isn't about what is said to me or what I consider challenging. It's about people saying that you can't create fanart of characters until you've "engaged with the media", which in a lot of fandoms means, seen every single episode read every single book played every single level and all the DLC. That is a ridiculous thing to demand. And it is a demand that you might have more trouble meeting based on ability... so yeah. "You have to engage with it before you say anything about the series" is ableist.

Tell me, where's your line? How tall is your "must watch/read/play this much to ride" sign? How much does someone have to do to be granted access and deemed worthy by your righteous fucking self?

If It Were Any Other Disability Aid...

"Wheelchairs can help people who have trouble walking, can't walk, or have a lot of pain from it, to get from place to place."

"Why are you promoting wheelchairs? That's saying that no disabled person ever can walk! I can't walk and I use arm crutches so everyone should be able to do that too! Look at this lady who REFUSES to be LAZY and crawls along the ground with her fingers! Why are you saying that no disabled person can ever walk and we're not allowed to walk, that's so ableist! Disabled people CAN AND DO WALK, we do NOT need wheelchairs! Sincerely a disabled person who walks!"

Like do you folks hear yourselves??

Yeah, this is an absolutely fucking abysmal take.

Presenting generative AI tools as a "disability aid" and equating it to a wheelchair is one of the most disgusting and disingenuous things I have seen in quite some time.

Using AI tools to generate images or text based on a prompt is absolutely not equivalent in any way, shape, or form to mobility aids like wheelchairs and crutches, and it's a massive reach to claim they are.

But, y'know, go ahead and keep strawmanning anti-AI arguments while using disabled people as a shield.

paraphrased, your tags said something about how many disabled people-- again, a group that I'm part of, not separate from-- would consider that offensive. I'm sure that's true because offensive is relative, but take it as the right house, let's work through a few more examples. In fact, let's take disability completely out of it, because that's not what I'm actually illustrating here. What I'm illustrating is how some AIphobes have responded to a choice between options as an ultimatum.

Blog A says, "If you have trouble with seeing at night, you can use a headlamp." Blog B reblogs it and says, "How dare you say that no one can see at night! Why are we not allowed to try to see at night? I have to squint but I don't use a headlamp, and it's infantilizing to say I have to use one!"

Blog C says, "I really love the flavor of peppers but I don't like the spice, so if you also run into that, Acme Not Sauce has really good flavor but isn't hot at all." Blog D reblogs them and says, "I can't believe people are out here saying that no one can eat spicy food. It isn't for everyone but why would you say that nobody can stand spice?? That's not true at all!"

Blog E says, "I like taking the mountain road to get to City because of the really nice views, but if you want to get there faster, the interstate is a more direct route." Blog F reblogs them and says, "Oh so now NO ONE can appreciate the views anymore? We ALL have to take the interstate? That's so judgmental OP why do you think no one can drive long distances for the sake of nice scenery?"

Blog G says, "Hey all! I'm adding blue shirts to my shop soon! You'll have another option in all sizes for color besides black, white, or green." Blog H reblogs them and says, "Why are you on here claiming that no one can wear anything but blue?! I wear other colors all the time........."

Are we seeing the vision? Are we getting the meaning? Is this making sense?

First of all, there is no such thing as an "AIphobe". You're not oppressed just because people won't shower you with praise for typing a prompt into a generator. Literally shut the fuck up with that shit.

But also, I fucking love how your response to being called out for strawmanning, was to just make up a bunch of other strawman arguments. Because obviously if one strawman isn't effective, then four or five more should do the trick.

Are you even trying here?

Well, I'm trying to explain how one person can say "this is an option" and someone else can react with "why are you insisting everyone do that". And how it's really, really confusing. And how the response seems to be to something that wasn't actually said or even implied. But for some reason it isn't making sense to you.

AIphobe AIphobe AIphobe.

When someone says that AI *can help* disabled people create art, and others respond as if what they said was "disabled people *need* AI to create art", that's what's happening.

I'm sure it does read like a strawman, because it's a response that doesn't make sense at all! Because it's a response to something that was not said. Ever, by anyone. Show it to me. Show me where it was said that disabled people can't make art or need AI to do it for them. Go ahead, I'll wait.

What is being said is that it's an OPTION. It is one possible path that people CAN take. And I'm really mystified as to where all this "how dare you say we can't" stuff is coming from.

Write it shitty, write it scared, write it without a clue but don't you be so spineless and have an AI write fanfic for you.

Write it with AI and be happy, and make this person using ableist insults really mad.

6/10 rage bait

I don't actually have the energy to screenshot your tags but AI isn't theft any more than collage or photography.

a troll account is supposed to be funny btw

Oh, is that why yours is so hilarious?

oh so you think i’m funny <3

I mean, yeah, a little bit, in that "reactionary rhetoric is like watching slapstick" way.

did you ask chatgpt to write that response? it’s shit

I wrote it myself, as I've said multiple times, standing up to bullies like you is one of the only things I have energy for online right now. Prompting an AI for responses is actually a lot of work, work that I'm not able to put in.

oh so you can think for yourself.

Yep, never said I couldn't. I lack the energy and executive function to do creative stuff, and really miss it, but for now at least I can still do advocacy work. Also, per your tags, it actually does take a lot of time, effort, and practice to create with AI. You should look it up sometime instead of listening to everyone chanting "theft machine theft machine" over and over.

Write it shitty, write it scared, write it without a clue but don't you be so spineless and have an AI write fanfic for you.

Write it with AI and be happy, and make this person using ableist insults really mad.

6/10 rage bait

I don't actually have the energy to screenshot your tags but AI isn't theft any more than collage or photography.

a troll account is supposed to be funny btw

Oh, is that why yours is so hilarious?

oh so you think i’m funny <3

I mean, yeah, a little bit, in that "reactionary rhetoric is like watching slapstick" way.

did you ask chatgpt to write that response? it’s shit

I wrote it myself, as I've said multiple times, standing up to bullies like you is one of the only things I have energy for online right now. Prompting an AI for responses is actually a lot of work, work that I'm not able to put in.

If It Were Any Other Disability Aid...

"Wheelchairs can help people who have trouble walking, can't walk, or have a lot of pain from it, to get from place to place."

"Why are you promoting wheelchairs? That's saying that no disabled person ever can walk! I can't walk and I use arm crutches so everyone should be able to do that too! Look at this lady who REFUSES to be LAZY and crawls along the ground with her fingers! Why are you saying that no disabled person can ever walk and we're not allowed to walk, that's so ableist! Disabled people CAN AND DO WALK, we do NOT need wheelchairs! Sincerely a disabled person who walks!"

Like do you folks hear yourselves??

Yeah, this is an absolutely fucking abysmal take.

Presenting generative AI tools as a "disability aid" and equating it to a wheelchair is one of the most disgusting and disingenuous things I have seen in quite some time.

Using AI tools to generate images or text based on a prompt is absolutely not equivalent in any way, shape, or form to mobility aids like wheelchairs and crutches, and it's a massive reach to claim they are.

But, y'know, go ahead and keep strawmanning anti-AI arguments while using disabled people as a shield.

paraphrased, your tags said something about how many disabled people-- again, a group that I'm part of, not separate from-- would consider that offensive. I'm sure that's true because offensive is relative, but take it as the right house, let's work through a few more examples. In fact, let's take disability completely out of it, because that's not what I'm actually illustrating here. What I'm illustrating is how some AIphobes have responded to a choice between options as an ultimatum.

Blog A says, "If you have trouble with seeing at night, you can use a headlamp." Blog B reblogs it and says, "How dare you say that no one can see at night! Why are we not allowed to try to see at night? I have to squint but I don't use a headlamp, and it's infantilizing to say I have to use one!"

Blog C says, "I really love the flavor of peppers but I don't like the spice, so if you also run into that, Acme Not Sauce has really good flavor but isn't hot at all." Blog D reblogs them and says, "I can't believe people are out here saying that no one can eat spicy food. It isn't for everyone but why would you say that nobody can stand spice?? That's not true at all!"

Blog E says, "I like taking the mountain road to get to City because of the really nice views, but if you want to get there faster, the interstate is a more direct route." Blog F reblogs them and says, "Oh so now NO ONE can appreciate the views anymore? We ALL have to take the interstate? That's so judgmental OP why do you think no one can drive long distances for the sake of nice scenery?"

Blog G says, "Hey all! I'm adding blue shirts to my shop soon! You'll have another option in all sizes for color besides black, white, or green." Blog H reblogs them and says, "Why are you on here claiming that no one can wear anything but blue?! I wear other colors all the time........."

Are we seeing the vision? Are we getting the meaning? Is this making sense?