Talk:Q33999

DDC 792.028092

{{maintenance|SUBJECT=Q33999|LIST=|DDC=792.028092|DDCMAIN=|TREEVIA=279|TANDEM=|TANDEMLIST=|TANDEMTREEVIA=|SHOWALL=|ANCHOR=|SILENT=|WMFLCODE=eo}}
12:25, 27 April 2014 (UTC): draft, please use the template talk page for comments;

tree might be delayed by ~15 minutes; suggested values for TREEVIA and TANDEMTREEVIA: subclass of (P279) , instance of (P31) , part of (P361) , has part(s) (P527) , occupation (P106) , field of work (P101) , etc.

in order to see another language please change the WMFLCODE-parameter value in preview mode only
actor (Q33999) · ^{purge · T · WLH · tree · reasonator} · DDC: 792.028092 · DDCTANDEM: 000 · tree ^{using subclass of (P279)}

Gender neutrality

This property is in fact neutral with regards to the gender/sex of the person. Its name should reflect that, possibly using "or".

However there's a single property (Property:P2521) to specialize it for the female sex/gender, and no opposite property for the male sex/gender. Shouldn't this be corrected ?

Notes:

• the distinction is definitely not grammatical, some languages do not have grammatical genders, e.g. English, but still have distinct names for the human sex/gender, both having the same grammatical gender. For some occupation names, there's no distinction by sex (e.g. "journaliste" in French, journalist" in English), but these names may still have sometime different grammatical gender and/or human sex (same example in French: "un journaliste" for male, "une journaliste" for female)
• some linguistic editions of Wikipedia (also in Wikimedia Commons) have distinctions by sex between actors and actresses (in their categories), so there are two subclasses of "actor or actress", distinguished by gender/sex (not by grammatical gender).

Verdy p (talk) 14:17, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

I believe such corrections are not possible at this moment. Items like this are included in many infoboxes via occupation (P106) property. Few heavily gender-marked languages (cs, sl, ru) users have already added a specialized Lua modules to include female form of label (P2521) for females. If you change labels to "male form or female form" all male infoboxes would be turned into machine-generated garbage. --Lockal (talk) 14:57, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Infoboxes should not use this generic property. In fact, most Wikipedias have a clear distinction by sex, so the data in Wikidata is incorrect, we need separate subclasses and keep this property neutral.

Wikidata will need corrections. Using the "male or femal forms" is possible, provided that the first property is added (it is clearly missing in Wikidata), and possibly a third one when the name is not distinguised.

Also there was an incorrect binding of the "female form" to the grammatical "feminine" gender, which was clearly wrong (at least for English). This is corrected. Verdy p (talk) 15:02, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Note: this neutrality should never break infoboxes in Wikipedia. Those few wikipedias are wrong and will need corrections too. Verdy p (talk) 15:05, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Using "male or female form" for items with specified male gender is a software gore. By having only male form in label it should be possible to build correct infoboxes for male/female/neutral forms with Lua. As you correctly noticed, there is no opposite property for the male sex/gender. If you think there should be one, use the standard procedure of adding a new property. Otherwise, it is up to you to fix all templates in all languages (many of which are fully protected) and only then you are free to change labels to whatever you want. --Lockal (talk) 15:16, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Wikidata MUST NOT depend on the way a few Wikipedias are using its data. Those Wikipedias are clearly making incorrect assumptions. This should not block accurate changes needed in Wikidata. Infoboxes of those Wikipedias are clearly wrong and will need to be corrected (it does not matter if their Lua modules are currently protected, those changes will be made locally there). Verdy p (talk) 15:23, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Note that my proposal also removes the need of the "software gore". Data from Wikidata will be directly usable without looking for specific female forms, those Lua modules will be simpler, they'll display the correct form directly. Verdy p (talk) 15:27, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia is the biggest consumer of Wikidata, so obviously Wikidata will depend on modules from the biggest Wikipedia editions (and Russian Wikipedia is one of those).

Also, have you ever heard of software gore? End users do not care about Lua scripts and other code, they care about final results. Thousands of Wikidata users created more than 1 million of sex or gender (P21) statements. But with your edits pages like en:Marcel Achard and en:Carl Anderson (singer) would immediately display "actor or actress" ignoring the fact, that P21 is set for both of these items. Well, in English there are few gender-marked professions, but in other languages multiple forms inside a single label would turn infoboxes into real software gore. That's why changes like this should be discussed beforehand. --Lockal (talk) 19:14, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

keine feminine GND-Kennung (P227)

Hi! There is no feminine GND ID (P227) available today.
no bias — קיין אומוויסנדיקע פּרעפֿערענצן — keyn umvisndike preferentsn ^{talk contribs} 10:22, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

rang = normal, ALLWAYS

Hi, I changed several rangs from preferred to normal, because it affects all values not only an specific language. Therefore, the result was that suahili appears as the main version ever. Salut ! Amadalvarez (talk) 08:07, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Gender neutral label in French

Following this request for comments, I've added a gender neutral label in French. PAC2 (talk) 05:16, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

French label

Hello Jmax, following this request for comments (Wikidata:Requests for comment/How to avoid to use male form as a generic form in property labels in French?), we now use male and female form in French if there is no neutral form. So please don't change it (Special:MobileDiff/1706884906 ). PAC2 (talk) 09:07, 18 August 2022 (UTC)