Wikidata:Property proposal/Berlin Street ID

Berlin Street ID

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Place

Done: Berlin Street ID (P10451) (Talk and documentation)

Represents	Berlin Street ID (Q28966841)
Data type	External identifier
Domain	street or place or railway station in Berlin, Berlin U-Bahn station (Q110977120), Berlin S-Bahn station (Q110977521)
Allowed values	[0-9]{5}
Example 1	Oranienburger Straße (Q705366) → ‎42143
Example 2	Berlin Oranienburger Straße station (Q480249) → ‎17021
Example 3	Oranienburger Tor metro station (Q571485) → 16969
Example 4	Oranienburger Straße (Q60632083) → 03326
Source	https://statis.statistik-berlin-brandenburg.de/regionales/rbs-info/rbs-info.asp
Planned use	1200 items until 2022-03-31
Number of IDs in source	10000+
Expected completeness	eventually complete (Q21873974)
See also	P1945
Distinct-values constraint	yes

Motivation

Like

Paris city digital code (Property:P630)
Kyiv street code (Property:P1854)

Berlin also has a system for a city of more than a million inhabitants. Even Dresden with Dresden Street ID (Property:P8710) has its own property. It will be much easier to add and control the values (Located in Berlin? Type of item?) if the Berlin system gets its own property as a subproperty of Property:P1945. I just added a value via P1945 and got a warning symbol, because some catalog is missing. Also, the Berlin IDs don't exist only for streets but also places and S-Bahn and U-Bahn stations, but "street key (P195)" says "Wikidata item of this property : street". BerlinBerlinBerlinBerlin (talk) 16:25, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

https://w.wiki/4sCD - finds streets in Berlin without street key

Discussion

@‎Giocomai, Frlgin, Pfadintegral, Dschungelfan: you did edit Q28966841 and are maybe interested this proposal. BerlinBerlinBerlinBerlin (talk) 16:31, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On the one hand, as you suggest, a correspondent property exists for other cities, so it would be difficult to argue against it (if Dresden has it, of course, why not Berlin). On the other, the generic "street key" used in combination with a qualifier seems ultimately fit for purpose, and is already extensively used in Berlin and other German cities. For example, the "Wikidata property example" of P1945 refer to Bonn and Rostock. By my count, there are about 190.000 streets in Germany with a "street key". If we create a new "Berlin Street ID", then what happens to the current P1945 field which effectively presents the same piece of data? I'll check some stats, but I suppose the street id for Berlin streets was added with some batch import, so perhaps a similar conversation had already taken place eventually deciding that P1945 with a qualifier was to be preferred to a separate property? (just wondering)

I suppose "Berlin Street ID" - would still be a sub-property of P1945 (even if as you suggest it does not cover only streets), so long term I don't necessarily see an issue there, just something to consider in the transition phase, perhaps also for other German cities.

So no strong opinions from my side, just some context and thoughts Giocomai (talk) 17:39, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If a specific property for Berlin is created, then that one should be used for Berlin, and these kind of IDs for Berlin places should not be stored in "street key" anymore. Apart from Paris, Kiev, Dresden, there are more examples:

Czech street ID (Property:P4533)
road number (Estonia) (Property:P5093)
BAG public space ID (Property:P5207) - Netherlands
SUCA code (Property:P5946) - Madrid Region
Unique Street Reference Number (Property:P8447) - United Kingdom
Danmarks Adresseregister named street ID (Property:P9221)
Austrian Street ID (Property:P10198)

It is inconsistent to have IDs a) of some ID systems stored in collective property and mark them with a qualifier storing the "catalog" it is taken from and b) of other ID systems stored in a dedicated property. If one allows for a collective property, why not delete all "catalog"-specific external-ID-properties, store them all in one property "external-ID" and add a qualifier storing the catalog as an item? One would lose the possibility to store property constraints related to individual catalogs. No, that isn't done. RE "By my count, there are about 190.000 streets" - how did you count that? Would it be possible to let software count it transparently on request? Berlin has more than 10000 of these IDs, if German WP report of 9950 streets and places for 2015 [1] is correct and refers to public streets and places. New streets have been created and one would have to add the stations. BerlinBerlinBerlinBerlin (talk) 23:49, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@BerlinBerlinBerlinBerlin First, about the figures. About 190.000 is the number of Wikidata items that are an "instance of" -> "street" and "country" -> "Germany"... so, the total number of streets in Germany that have an own Wikidata item (see query). The number of streets which actually have a "street key" property in all of Germany is actually much smaller, about 8.200, scattered around various cities (my mistake, really sorry about the confusion!). Some of these with a street key are indeed in Berlin (e.g. 406 streets in Berlin Mitte), but this does not seem to be used consistently at this stage, neither in Berlin or in other German cities, with perhaps a couple of exceptiond (out of those 8.200 streets, Rostock and Ulm have more than 1.000 each).

Thanks also for the additional clarifications.

Ultimately, the identifier you propose would anyway be different, as it includes also public transport stops. So I'm all in favour, actually! Giocomai (talk) 10:13, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Giocomai, I now voted "support" below. Can you do the same? BerlinBerlinBerlinBerlin (talk) 13:08, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Redboston, Сидик из ПТУ, MaksOttoVonStirlitz, MasterRus21thCentury, Evs, Arbnos: you recently had to do with Wikidata:Property proposal/Volgograd Oblast address register can you have a look at this similarr proposal for Berlin? BerlinBerlinBerlinBerlin (talk) 17:10, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@MB-one: just pinging you as someone from Berlin who works on Berlin geography. BerlinBerlinBerlinBerlin (talk) 20:40, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Pamputt: you created Austrian Street ID (P10198) - could you create Berlin Street ID? The next OSM meet-up is on 2022-03-10 (https://osmcal.org/event/1203/) it would be nice if before that, the Berlin Street ID is created and values from street key are transferred to this new specialized property. Then maybe during the meet-up some data hacking can be done to add Berlin Street IDs to streets of Berlin existing in Wikidata but missing any ID. Maybe more OSM people can be motivated to work on WD. Best regards BerlinBerlinBerlinBerlin (talk) 13:21, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]