Wikidata:Property proposal/associated locality

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associated locality

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Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Place

   Not done
DescriptionLocality, which is part of a municipality. Settlement, which is part of a locality
Data typeItem
Example 1Hengsberg (Q695443) → Flüssing (Q104825115), Hengsberg (Q21881966), Kehlsdorf (Q113818716), Komberg (Q69684132), Kühberg (Q113818450), Leitersdorf (Q113818836), Matzelsdorf (Q113818753), Schönberg an der Laßnitz (Q113818615), Schrötten an der Laßnitz (Q113818788)
Example 2Kleinflüssing (Q92267312) → Flüssing (Q104825115)
Example 3Lippmichl (Q92267797) → Matzelsdorf (Q113818753)
Example 4Schatzmühle (Q92267921) → Matzelsdorf (Q113818753)
Sourcede:Statistics Austria (see [1]), maps like Geoland
Planned usethere are about 17000 localities in Austria - everything that has a locality number in Austria (P8384). I hope I can do about 2 to 3 percent of Austria within the next month
See alsoassociated cadastral district (P10254) is the same concept, but for cadastral communities, located in the administrative territorial entity (P131), contains the administrative territorial entity (P150), located in statistical territorial entity (P8138), contains the statistical territorial entity (P10888)
Wikidata projectWikiProject Austria (Q11343046)

Motivation

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For municipalities in Austria, there are two types of subdivisions: Cadastral communities and localities and there are two numbering systems: cadastral municipality ID in Austria (P8322) and locality number in Austria (P8384). One may say, that the first is about area and the second about population, but this is a very simple view. A physical settlement like Lippmichl (Q92267797) is part of the locality of Matzelsdorf (Q113818753) and part of the cadastral community of Schönberg (Q113818664). The proposed property will help to model this relation similar to associated cadastral district (P10254). Maincomb (talk) 20:50, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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It can be seen as "contains the administrative territorial entity (P150)" or as an inverse form of "located in the administrative territorial entity (P131)". In Austria, localities (= everything that has a locality number in Austria (P8384)) are not administrative entities but historically grown and therefore kind of statistical entities. However, the real statistical entities are the de:Zählsprengel and "located in statistical territorial entity (P8138)" should be used here.
It should be used in both directions, from the municipality to the localities in blocked form like in Q695443#P10254 and from the hamlets etc. to the locality like in Q92267797#P10254. I want to create this section de:Hengsberg#Ortschaften with wikidata. --Maincomb (talk) 22:43, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment I would be happier if the proposal only went one clear way. Note that we already have located in statistical territorial entity (P8138), which can be used for items which are not administrative entities; or location (P276) which could be used with a suitable object of statement has role (P3831) qualifier. I would be more happy to see either of those patterns used instead of the present proposal; particularly if the proposal is going to keep the current extremely vague proposed label, which looks doomed to be a confuser for significant place (P7153). Jheald (talk) 16:02, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We also now have contains the statistical territorial entity (P10888) which was recently created. Middle river exports (talk) 00:52, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In Austria, there are three types of localities (in our language: Ortschaft (Q11183787)): localities, that are represented by Ortschaft (Q11183787), localities, that are represented by locality (Q3257686) and localities, that are not represented in wikidata by now. All three types are called de:Ortschaft, the first ones are maintained by municipalities, the second ones are maintained by the federal Statistical Office of Austria and the third are maintained by the postal service of Austria. One may say administrative localities, statistical localities and postal localities, but these are not terms used in Austria, all is just called "Ortschaft". Here in Wikidata, somebody translated locality number in Austria (P8384) with "locality number" and so we (mis-)use "locality" for all objects with this "locality number" instead of Ortschaft (Q11183787), that is now used for localities maintained by municipalities.
A locality (the type maintained by the federal Statistical Office of Austria) is a cultural, economic, residential, historic, administrative and political unit and the Statistical Office sets a statistical view on it. So it is not a statistical entity, but there are data about it. (Localities can extend across municipality boundaries, change their name, united ... so it in not fully usable as statistical entity.)
The Statistical Office of Austria has grid data, census districts, postcodes, localities (mentioned above) and customer defined polygons, as you can see here. All this are artificial units. Then, there are physical units (villages, hamlets, dispersed settlements and some other types where I cannot find an english translation) which also have their statistics and could use location (P276) and contains the statistical territorial entity (P10888) with a object of statement has role (P3831) qualifier. Example: The village of "Puchberg am Schneeberg" only exitsts once, but in wikidata it is represented with different roles: as municiplaity: Puchberg am Schneeberg (Q666478), als cadastral community: Puchberg am Schneeberg (Q113453804), as locality: Puchberg am Schneeberg (Q113453806), and as settlement: Puchberg am Schneeberg (Q113453925).
So all this would be mixed up. It will be easy to make mistakes and it will be hard to find them. What is about maintenance, when one cannot see what to do? And most important: I want to use this list within articles as shown in sl:Zgornji_Osek,_Avstrija#Naselja_v_občini (bulleted list below "Naselji Zgornji Osek so:"). So I want to keep it simple like with associated cadastral district (P10254), where it is clear what to put in and what will come out.
The descriptions of location (P276) and significant place (P7153) do not look proper for my intention. Properties like located in statistical territorial entity (P8138) and contains the statistical territorial entity (P10888) should be used with real statistical territorial entities like grid data and census districts as mentioned above. --Maincomb (talk) 19:43, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Could you draw a map showing the relationships between Lippmichl, Matzelsdorf, Hengsberg, Schönberg and Leibnitz District? 2A01:CB14:D52:1200:1543:584A:DA25:6ADD 15:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can draw a scheme of Hengsberg (municipality), its six cadastral communities, nine localities and many settlements:
Hengsberg (municipality)
  • Fliessing (cadastral community)
    • Flüssing (locality)
      • Flüssing (settlement)
      • Kleinflüssing (settlement)
  • Hengsberg (cadastral community)
    • Hengsberg (locality)
      • Hengsberg (settlement)
  • Komberg (cadastral community)
    • Komberg (locality)
      • Froschberg (settlement)
      • Komberg (settlement)
      • Voregg (settlement)
  • Kühberg (cadastral community)
    • Kühberg (locality)
      • Guglitz (settlement)
      • Kühberg (settlement)
      • Similipp (settlement)
  • Schönberg (cadastral community)
    • Kehlsdorf (locality)
      • Kehlsdorf (settlement)
      • Schloss Freybühel (settlement)
    • Matzelsdorf (locality)
      • Lippmichl (settlement)
      • Matzelsdorf (settlement)
      • Schatzmühle (settlement)
    • Schönberg an der Laßnitz (locality)
      • Schönberg an der Laßnitz (settlement)
  • Schrötten (cadastral community)
    • Leitersdorf (locality)
      • Leitersdorf (settlement)
    • Schrötten an der Laßnitz (locality)
      • Hofbauer (settlement)
      • Holzbauer (settlement)
      • Schrötten an der Laßnitz (settlement)
      • Wolf (settlement)
Example: Lippmichl is a (small) settlement within the locality of Matzelsdorf. The locality of Matzelsdorf consists of Matzelsdorf itself as settlement, Schatzmühle and Lippmichl as two small settlements. Matzelsdorf is a part of the cadastral community of Schönberg. The cadastral community of Schönberg consists of the localities of Kehlsdorf, Matzelsdorf and Schönberg an der Laßnitz and its settlements within these localities.
I hope this helps to understand the problem of modeling the structure of our municipalities. --Maincomb (talk) 10:16, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much. 2A01:CB14:D52:1200:D98F:331A:7FE2:BB10 15:17, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is also contains settlement (P1383). It would be useful a template with these properties, like Template:Location properties. Bean49 (talk) 09:33, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Support I now use location (P276) because there is no located in the administrative territorial entity (P131)/contains the administrative territorial entity (P150) for non-administrative territorial entities. I think "associated non-administrative territorial entity" would be even better. --Ruderblatt (talk) 06:50, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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