Wikidata:Property proposal/madhhab

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madhhab

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Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Person

   Done: madhhab (P9929) (Talk and documentation)
Descriptionschool of thought (Q1387659) within fiqh (Q484181)
Representsmadhhab (Q209928)
Data typeItem
Domainbiography
Example 1Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari (Q316349) → Malikism (Q48221)
Example 2Morocco (Q1028) → Malikism (Q48221) (country)
Example 3Al-Mawardi (Q335635) → Shafi`i (Q82245)
Example 4Abu Dawood (Q336558) → Hanbalism (Q233387)
Example 5Jābir ibn Zayd (Q6035355) → Ibadi Islam (Q243551)
Example 6Al-Albani (Q560078) → Ẓāhirī (Q140592)
Example 7Muhammad al-Shaybani (Q293612) → Al-Mawardi (Q335635)
Example 8Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulayni (Q2973730) → Ja'fari jurisprudence (Q685567)
Example 9Idris Imad al-Din (Q7660476) → Isma'ilism (Q230386)
Example 10Muhammad al-Shaybani (Q293612) → Hanafism (Q228986)
Sourcew:Madhhab
Planned useMuslims (mostly scholars and imams), muslim countries, madrassahs, and other Islamic educational institutions

Motivation

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This is my first time i suggest a property, maybe a Muslim user or any interested user can help me. Ruwaym (talk) 10:56, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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 Comment This property, if I understand where you're going with this, seems similar to movement (P135), although that property does not seem to be used with religious subgroups. Perhaps the scope of this property can be readjusted to allow for use with other religious schools of thought? Mahir256 (talk) 16:20, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@ChristianKl: I have added the examples as requested. Thoughts? --Trade (talk) 22:18, 10 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I explained her. About "why aren't the schools of thoughts values for religion", If you mean we put "maddhab" on same property under religion, (like Q67180122), I guess It is not standard. For example a Muslim religion is "Islam", his maddhab can be "Hanafism", his movement can be "Islamic modernism". I ping @باسم: from Arabic Wikipedia, he knows better. --Ruwaym (talk) 10:57, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Madhhab should go under Religion naturally, particularly under Islam, like @Ruwaym: said. For Example: A Person's religion would be Islam, his sect would be Sunni, his madhab would be Hanafism.
movement (P135), in Islam, would be to discribe if he is a Salafi or Ash'ari, in other words is to show what theological school or movement he / she belongs toباسم (talk) 11:18, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@باسم: Most items uses religion or worldview (P140) to describe if someone is a salafi or sufi. Do you want this changed? To @Ruwaym:, do you want this property to be limited to persons? Or do you think it should be used on countries, organizations and madrassas as well? --Trade (talk) 22:07, 10 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Trade you mentioned a good point, Maddhab is all about education ,Traditional at madrassahs, Modern days at universities. So, you changed my mind, This property also can be used for madrassahs, and other Islamic educational institutions. About countries can be used too, like Iran mentioned in it's constitution The official religion of Iran is Islam and the Twelver Ja'farî school [in usul al-Dîn and fiqh], and this principle will remain eternally immutable. Your examples are good, however not famous ones. Also remember for this property, One is not enough, many scholars changed their maddhabs, or madrassahs for all madhhabs. --Ruwaym (talk) 05:43, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Trade: It's not correct to describe Salafism or Sufism as a religion as in religion or worldview (P140). They are not even sects in Islam like Sunnism and Shi'ism, they are schools of thought, so they would fit better with movement (P135), or with their own seperate property. Bestباسم (talk) 06:02, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@باسم: I'm not saying they are religions, i'm just pointing out how people currently are using the property. We might start a discussion on the project chat about the scope of the 'Religion' property. @Ruwaym:, i have tried to update the proposal to include more famous scholars. --Trade (talk) 14:49, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In the Christian context it's common to see subsets of Christianity like Mormonism (Q747802) as being religions. It seems to me like the relationship between Sunni Islam and Islam as a whole is comparable to that of Christianity and Mormonism (Q747802). Do you consider that to be a qualitatively different relationship? If so, what's the nature of the difference?
Enwiki seems to consider Ibadi Islam (Q243551) to be a valid value for the religion of Said bin Sultan Al Busaidi (Q506193). In the examples here that is suggested as the mathab of Sulayman al-Baruni (Q2440021) but not of that of Said bin Sultan Al Busaidi (Q506193). What kinds of problems do you see with that modelling decision of enwiki? ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 17:05, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@ChristianKl:I do not know why i added Ẓāhirī (Q140592) as a a valid value for the madhab of Said bin Sultan Al Busaidi (Q506193). Since it seems to be wrong i've decided to replace him with someone better known. @باسم: and @Ruwaym: you might wanna view his comment. --Trade (talk) 23:13, 20 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@ChristianKl: Differences between Madhhab in Islam and Christian denominations? Well, I can show this map and this article. @Trade:, I can help you for more famous scholar for each maddhab: Muhammad al-Shaybani (Q293612) for Hanafi, Al-Mawardi (Q335635) for Shafi'i, Abu Dawood (Q336558) for Hanbali, Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulayni (Q2973730) for Ja'fari, Idris Imad al-Din (Q7660476) for Isma'ilism and Jābir ibn Zayd (Q6035355) for Ibadi .--Ruwaym (talk) 00:39, 21 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that the "Sects in the Islamic World" article supports the claim that no correspondence exists here. It says "The principal difference between a madhhab and a denomination as the concept is normally understood (and as denominations exist in theWest) is that a madhhab is not really an organized body."
When we speak about Christian denominations in their role as subclasses of Christianity we are not focusing on them being organized bodies. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 13:22, 24 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Trade: Hey, how is this property feels?!--Ruwaym (talk) 16:21, 15 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
 Support I'll be okay with it as long as it can be a qualifier to religion or worldview (P140) --Trade (talk) 23:39, 16 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
 Support okay because it not similar to religion or worldview (P140)--NEHAOUA (talk) 22:49, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
 Oppose The religion property solves the use-case well enough and should not be read to be very narrow. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 09:47, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support Germartin1 (talk) 20:22, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Weak Support, defering to muslim editor here The risk of ignorantly denying them something they consider useful seems to far outweigh the more generic risk of a marginal property. FWIW, my understanding of the concept is shallow, but I can sort-of see how one could feel this is different, conceptional, from Christian denominations. And I wouldn't want to shoehorn it into a scheme that doesn't quite fit, and to thereby establish the dominant religion's ontology as some sort of "neutral" standard all others have to relate to. Matthias Winkelmann (talk) 22:22, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Matthias Winkelmann: There are costs of storing this information in a separate property. If we create proposals for subcategories of every religion individually smaller Wikis who do import religion or worldview (P140) and not more specialized properties lose the relevant information when it's not stored there. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 19:41, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
'If we create proposals for subcategories of every religion individually smaller Wikis who do import religion or worldview (P140) and not more specialized properties lose the relevant information when it's not stored there' A madhab is not a religion. The imported data would be blatantly wrong.--Trade (talk) 23:55, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Oppose: use P135 instead. Nomen ad hoc (talk) 18:11, 18 November 2020 (UTC).[reply]
  •  Support A lot of the ongoing discussion suffers from the likening of Christianity with its concept of denominations and churches with Islam, a faith that doesn’t really have these concepts. On the other hand, Christianity doesn’t really have a concept like madhhab. Both however do know what could be described as movements for which movement (P135) can be used. I do feel that madhhab merits a separate property. --Emu (talk) 00:01, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @ArthurPSmith, EihelGZWDer, Thierry Caro: Can we get a verdict for this property? This discussion have taken way too long already --Trade (talk) 11:57, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Trade, Eihel, GZWDer: I'm not sure why you pinged me (and it looks like you missed pinging a couple of the others you wanted to...) anyway, reading the enwiki article on this topic it appears while it has a basis in religion, a madhab is a "school of jurisprudence", i.e. more related to laws than religion per se. movement (P135) doesn't specifically mention "school of jurisprudence" as one of its alternate labels, so either that could be expanded, or a new property as proposed here but with the general label "school of jurisprudence" seems fine to me. ArthurPSmith (talk) 14:37, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Trade, My knowledge of religions is extremely limited. Thus, it would be indelicate of me to make any addition to this proposal. Furthermore, the discussions do not seem to decide one way or the other and each one seems to bring a valid point of view; you should discuss it further to come to a consensus. —Eihel (talk) 15:55, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Support Of the 146 Wikidata property related to religions and beliefs (Q22983697), 95 are Wikidata property related to Christianity (Q64264420) and a further 20 or so are church-related in Wikidata property for authority control for places of worship (Q55978551), for a total of 115. Guess how many are Wikidata property related to Islam (Q73688627)? 1! ([Query]). Many of these are external identifiers. But there is also mother house (P612), which could maybe be covered by location of formation (P740). And consecrator (P1598) is just appointed by (P748) done diagonally. religious order (P611), incidentally, seems to be awfully close to the requested property. Guess how much discussion happened for that property? Instead of arguing the semantic connotations of a rather foreign concept after spending five minutes on the enwiki article, we should either trust the user making the request, or actively try to recruit people to give input who we do trust. (edit: the query misses a few. It's about 170 properties, of which 130 are Christian). Karl Oblique (talk) 13:02, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ruwaym, Mahir256, ChristianKl, Trade:@Ruwaym, Germartin1, باسم, Matthias_Winkelmann: and @Nomen_ad_hoc, Emu, ArthurPSmith, Eihel, Karl Oblique: madhhab (P9929) ✓ Done. Good contributions, Ederporto (talk) 03:50, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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