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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.

To request enforcement of previous Arbitration decisions or discretionary sanctions, please do not open a new Arbitration case. Instead, please submit your request to /Requests/Enforcement.

This page transcludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.

Please make your request in the appropriate section:

Arbitration Committee proceedings

Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.

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Open cases

Currently, no arbitration cases are open.

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Recently closed cases (Past cases)
Case name Closed
Yasuke 13 Nov 2024

Currently, no requests for clarification or amendment are open.

No arbitrator motions are currently open.

Current requests

Initiated by — James Cantor (talk) at 02:03, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties


Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request


Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by James Cantor

There is a group of editors with on-going COI problem on a sizeable number of related pages (Lynn Conway, The Man Who Would Be Queen, and others). All three editors (one of whom is me) acknowledge real-life relationships with some aspect of those pages’ content, and all have been challenged regarding COI several times by people with opposing perspectives. I believe that all three editors (including me) should be limited in their editing of the pages.

These editors are:

  • user:Dicklyon acknowledges that he is a personal friend and a former employee of Lynn Conway. He has been blocked three times for edit warring on this and on other pages. He is under a topic ban for still other topics (see here). He entered into a mediated agreement with user:James Cantor not to edit the controversy sections of the problematic articles (see here), but he recently declared unilaterally that he was withdrawing from that agreement (see here) because it suited him in his dispute with yet another editor (user:Hfarmer, see here). This suggests, at least to me, that there is little point to negotiating and entering into voluntary agreements with him again.
  • user:Jokestress acknowledges that she is Andrea James, a self-described transsexual activist whose widely reported activities include submitting formal real-world complaints about the people described on the WP pages she edits and writing to their employers urging that they be fired. It was her involvement in the controversies described on the WP pages that made it into The New York Times.
  • user:James Cantor acknowledges that he is a professional colleague of Ray Blanchard, a researcher whose work is widely cited (including being contested) on the set of WP pages. I entered into a mediated agreement with user:Dicklyon not to edit the controversy sections of the problematic articles, but with Dicklyon’s withdrawal from that agreement, a new solution is needed to avoid a return to the prior state of edit warring. Previous WP accounts used by user:James Cantor are listed on his user page; they are user:WriteMakesRight and user:MarionTheLibrarian, which he used before acknowledging his real-world identity.

My proposed solution for ending these long-standing disputes once and for all is for all three of us to enter into the agreement that was used successfully by user:Dicklyon and user:James Cantor until Dicklyon’s withdrawal, and to let the pages be edited only by the remaining interested editors. I proposed the above at COI/N, which led to some discussion, but no solution. I believe that our discussion at COI/N (here) is the best synopsis of the status this multi-page conflict.

One editor, user:Jokestress, indicated she believes this case must go to mediation before it can be submitted here. My opinion is that mediation and external opinion have already been sought multiple times (to no avail), well within the expectation of ArbCom. The other editors expressing opinions indicated being prepared to bring this to ArbCom, recognizing that it is ultimately the decision of ArbCom itself.
— James Cantor (talk) 02:03, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dicklyon

Cantor's "proposed solution for ending these long-standing disputes once and for all" is to get two people silenced while his allies continue to do their thing; why he named the two of us in the title and not his other troublemakers is unclear. It's nuts; he's the WP:SPA who leads the campaign to polish the reputation of his sexologist buddies and tarnish those of their adversaries, against policy, starting out as MarionTheLibrarian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). I'll be happy to help with this ArbCom case if it comes to that, since COI, mediation, RfC and such haven't gotten us anywhere useful. It's also probably not appropriate to have named DGG and BrownHornet in this, as they have been the only truly neutral people around, and have done a great job of trying to calm down the disputes.

I recommend starting by reviewing the early history of this dispute, before Cantor admitted his identity as one of the principals in the real-world disputes: [12].

Also please note that Cantor's focus on my block history is misleading, distracting, and factually incorrect, not to mention oft-repeated and irrelevant. Dicklyon (talk) 03:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jokestress

  • I agree with User:BrownHornet21 that this dispute has not risen to a level that requires the intervention of arbcom just yet.
  • I agree with User:Cerejota that not all avenues have been attempted before Arbitration and told the requestor that here prior to this Arbitration request.
  • I agree with User:WhatamIdoing that general topic bans on these obscure areas of expertise are not really what's best for Wikipedia.[13]
  • I agree with User:DGG that the point is to make an encyclopedia.
  • I agree with User:Dicklyon that requester User:James Cantor is a single-purpose account here to promote his own writings and those of his sexologist friends, and to malign their most notable off-wiki critics (including me).
  • I consider this Arbitration request a bad-faith move, part of an ongoing pattern of disruptive behavior carried out by User:James Cantor, who treats Wikipedia as a battleground rather than a community where people with differing viewpoints can work together to write an encyclopedia. Jokestress (talk) 07:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by BrownHornet21

I was the mediator on the Lynn Conway mediation. I'm not quite sure this dispute arises to a level that requires the intervention of arbcom just yet. In the mediation, Dicklyon and James Cantor agreed to not directly edit the "transgender activism" section of Lynn Conway's biography, along with a number of other articles related to the controversy. I agree with DGG that perhaps the best solution is for Dick, James, Andrea, hfarmer, and others who have some personal involvement in the issue to let others try to work on it. Or at the very least, that all parties discuss possible edits at length on the talk page, and obtain a consensus prior to editing the contentious articles at issue. BrownHornet21 (talk) 04:22, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cerejota

I am uninvolved except for answering with two COI templates on User:James Cantor talk page during an allegation in the AfD for Feminine essence theory of transsexuality (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Feminine essence theory of transsexuality - I was for keep), and editing a mention of him (he has so far not been considered notable) as a (positive) critic of "The Man Who Would Be Queen" (which turned out to be controversial somehow - I mean, it was SNOWBALL clear to me that James Cantor is not notable, nor his criticism (or blurb) notable itself, so what encyclopedic value is there?)

  • Not all avenues have been attempted: Formal mediation remains an option that I do not see listed as being attempted. I think the MedCab is cool and all that, but it can be, well, informal. This here needs formality, that is true - I am not sure the elements of the controversy would bring into play things that a formal mediation cannot resolve. For example, no new findings are to be expected, nor is Oversight or Checkuser needed (I do not see special allegations of puppetry or some such - that the community has not handled by the usual channels -, nor has personal information that is not already public knowledge by other means been published).
  • All sides of the dispute should really approach formal moderation: the controversy is the shit, ArbCom is the fan, and when one hits the other, everyone ends up stinking even a little bit. I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I don't mind not stinking :D.
  • That said this case is interesting int hat it intersects some of the wider community questions that are at the core of most controversies: Science vs Belief/Politics and the related "Controversies involving Science vs Scientific Controversies", Professional vs Amateur, WP:COI, and WP:FRINGE/WP:NPOV. I am interested in all these matters, and for years I have been watching how the debate has developed. I do not think we have anything ground breaking here. Its run-of-the-mill stuff (in its context) that the community should have the fortitude to handle correctly.

Statement by DarlieB

Statement by DGG

I am involved only so fair as I've tried to give comments on particular issues, and some general advice, but from what I have observed, most of those editing would do much better to work on topics of less emotional significance to them. Possibly some people can edit effectively when they are this much involved, but its rare. The only practical course I see for this is for all of the present editors to let other people try to work on it. this might be a good place to experiment with using a committee of people who are willing to learn about the issues, but not otherwise involved. I think it would be better to find a way of doing this with actually censuring any of the people who have been here so far--the point is to make an encyclopedia, not judge individuals.DGG (talk) 02:46, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Hfarmer

My personal interest in this topic that some could say would be a conflict stem from my being a transsexual woman who lives in Chicago. I have met purely by chance both before and after this controversy was a big deal people who are priciple actors in this story. I have no Ill will towards any of them and would characterize our relationships as being that of friendly acquantainces all around. Some would say that I am biased because I don't agree with thier points of view. When in fact I am neutral because I know that none of those people are angels.

That said people named in James cantors complaint have all at one time or another tried to paint people involved in this, who have WP pages as bening either angles or devils depending on their POV. As I said on another page James Cantor and Jokestress edit with WP Policy and WP's best interest at heart, however their brains are so biased that what they each think is neutral is really heavily slanted. Dicklyon seems to not have WP's interest at heart and is willing to sling mud at WP articles of people he does not like, and at editors who dare to challenge him. Dicklyon has basically come to think that any edit I put in is biased against his POV automatically. For example I put information on a page about Lynn Conway which was on her own website. Somehow that was percieved by Dicklyon as being an attack on her. For Dicklyon it's more about personalities.

I would also like to note that the following pages have had the same editors inconflict over them at some point. Autogynephilia, Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory, Homosexual Transsexual. These describe a theory which was first put forward by Ray Blanchard who is a professional collegue and coworker of James Cantor's, a theory which has been the subject of real life controversy which Jokestress has been a part of.

Currently I have a proposed mediation regarding the article homosexual transsexualWikipedia:Requests for mediation/Homosexual transsexual, which Jokestress has said should somehow be considered along side all of this.[14] I personally do not think that would be appropriate.

Statement by ProudAGP

Statement by TheRedPedofDoom

Statement by WhatamIdoing

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/1/0/1)

  • Decline, without prejudice. There are obvious user conduct issues to examine, given the history, but I believe this is well-within the reach of the community to resolve. Behavioral issues can be dealt with via truces, disentanglement sanctions, topic bans, or blocks, as necessary within their preventative purposes. I see no indication that the community could not come to a consensus in this regard. Any remaining content issues can be dealt with normally through standard dispute resolution channels. Vassyana (talk) 08:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Leaning toward accepting the case. The large number of involved users will make it difficult for informal or formal mediation to solve the dispute. An ArbCom case will allow for a more methodical way for users to provide evidence supporting or opposing editing restrictions. I would like to see solid evidence of Community action starting now that will lead to stability on these articles. If that does not happen within the next several days, then I want to open an Arbitration case. FloNight♥♥♥ 14:33, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bishzilla

Please be considerate when adding statements to this RFAR. Cases such as this frequently have a large amount of useless statements added, that only add to already overworked Arbitrator workload. An ArbCom that is not overworked is better for everyone. Deskana

Initiated by DurovaCharge! at 22:25, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried
  • None (although previous arbitration cases may apply).

Statement by Durova

There seems to be no precedent for the attempted indefinite block of a sitting arbitrator, so being bold and bringing the matter directly here. Seems to be the best way to minimize drama. Bishonen attempted to apply an indefinite block on FT2 today.[18] If FT2 is to be blocked, banned, cautioned, or anything else it ought to be a deliberative action rather than unilateral or the adrenaline rush of ongoing Wikidrama. Whatever grievance she has she may raise here, and her arguments may stand or fall on their own merits. Likewise, there may be questions to ask about appropriate scope of administrative action and use of alternate joke accounts. Transferring admin ops to a joke account is a serious matter, as is using such ops on that account. Clear lines need to be drawn here. DurovaCharge! 22:25, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Follow-up: the basic reason for opening this request was a desire to contain a rapidly expanding dispute by bringing it to an orderly and defined venue. In past observations, delays in bringing such matters to ArbCom's doorstep often result in greater strife and difficulty in resolving the eventual case. Shortly after this request began Jimbo posted a request for calm, and I quite agree with the principle of orderly and calm progression. If it is his wish or the wish of any sitting arbitrator that this request be withdrawn I will gladly do so. That said, I am also working on content and other matters today. So will attempt to check in roughly half-hourly. With respect toward all, DurovaCharge! 23:57, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding Sheffield Steel's comment, one hope in initiating this RFAR is that it would defuse that type of concern. It is pretty well known that I was the editor who brought the RFC on ArbCom live last summer, and have been openly critical of arbitrators singly and collectively. See this for a recent example. If the Committee wishes to close ranks they may sanction both Bishonen and myself; I have no objection to putting that theory to the test. DurovaCharge! 00:10, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding Bishzilla's query (please move to its own section), this user has blurred the lines between joke and serious action regarding use of that account before. For example, Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Tango#Statement_by_Bishzilla where she initiated an arbitration request in fractured dino-speak. One would hope that a request to desysop a fellow volunteer would be initiated with greater decorum. Part of the initial confusion today appears to have sprung from doubts over whether the indefinite block of FT2 was serious or a joke. Whether one agrees with her or not on the underlying merits of either matter, things would be better if serious action were taken on a serious account. Stating this not to excuse or distract from serious scrutiny of FT2, but in reply to Bishzilla. DurovaCharge! 00:55, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To Tony, as stated above I have an offer to withdraw this arbitration request. Also, I would gladly assist by certifying the basis for a conduct RFC on either FT2 or Bishonen. DurovaCharge! 02:02, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jehochman

I suggest the entire matter be sent to Jimbo for sorting. The Committee is not competent to handle this matter, or they would have done so already. Jehochman Talk 22:37, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Elonka

Posting an indef block of an active arbitrator[19] is extraordinarily disruptive. In fact, the whole concept of blocking someone for not saying something, goes against blocking policy. Blocks are usually intended to be preventative, not punitive, and a block of FT2 served no preventative function here. As for the arguments that I'm seeing in other statements suggesting that "the block was okay because it was posted for review at ANI", this seems to be obvious wikilawyering. In reality, ANI review of blocks is for blocks that are grey area, not for blocks which are obviously absurd. If we were to say that Bish's block of FT2 was okay in this instance, would we then extend this to say that any administrator who was upset at case delays, could go and indefinitely block every arbitrator as a way of getting them to hurry up a bit, as long as the administrator posted a request for review of the blocks at ANI? I would hope not. Bish's block was just poor judgment, plain and simple. Bish (and I use the short form since this user tends to engage in admin actions on one account, Bishzilla (talk · contribs) but announce the block[20] and engage in related discussions from other accounts such as Bishonen (talk · contribs)) has also shown poor judgment in many other situations as well. Over the last year, she seems to be spending more time engaging in wiki-dramas than actually working on the encyclopedia. If Bish wishes to resume the excellent article work which she is capable of, she should be encouraged to do so. However, it is clear that she is not able to use administrator tools in a responsible manner, and therefore she should either resign or be forcibly de-sysopped. --Elonka 22:39, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tiptoety

Response to Jehochman: Jimbo has already stated he does not feel this is the correct time for him to get involved. Tiptoety talk 22:40, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tony Sidaway

I believe the best action here would be to decline, chide Bishonen for grandstanding, and ask Durova to use other methods of dispute resolution first (same goes for Bishonen and others if they have a dispute with another editor--arbitrator or not). Would it be out of order for me to suggest that this case has a distinct smell of wikipolitics? --TS 22:46, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

SlimVirgin has now taken her grievance to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/FT2, and Thatcher and one other have joined her on that RFC. Thus the community has an opportunity to resolve the ongoing dispute.
The block performed by Bishonen using her alternate sysop account has been reversed and roundly condemned as inappropriate by many parties. Nothing further could be gained (and possibly much harm could be done) at this point by an arbitration case. --TS 15:43, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nick

I believe the entire committee would need to recuse from dealing with the case, which makes arbitration impractical in this case, unless something unprecedented was to occur, such as bringing in arbitrators from another project. I'm not doubting the ability of the committee to effectively arbitrate a case such as this, but there's a real risk of further damage to the committee occurring if they are allowed to investigate, prosecute and sentence their own committee members.

I would normally recommend deferring comment purely to the community, and whilst it's preferable in normal circumstances for the community at large to decide the way forward in this case, at the time I write this, I don't honestly believe the community is capable of anything more than mob justice for both parties in the case (please not that I've no opinion on whether they're actually right or not).

Something needs to be done that results in a thoroughly impartial review of the case and evidence, both in respect of Bishzilla and FT2. Nick (talk) 22:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by JoshuaZ

There's no obvious action for the ArbCom to look at here. A block was made. The person who made that block immediately reported it to ANI for evaluation. A consensus quickly formed that the block was not helpful and the block was undone. There's no issue there. And if the ArbCom had intended to deal with the allegations regarding FT2 before I presume they would have done so. So there's not much here for the ArbCom to look at. JoshuaZ (talk) 22:43, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ottava Rima

There is already a lot of tension on either side. People have initiated language that would only hinder the neutral analysis of actions in order to determine problems. I do not feel as if arbitration will settle things, nor do I feel that Jimbo's decision will settle things. This is an issue that is more problematic than those like Giano's or Slim Virgin's, but mostly because it involves those previous decisions in some regards. There is a lot of bad blood on either side, and I hope that people entering into it recognize it and try to prevent it from spilling into conflicts. Wikipedia is not a battleground. Lets remember that we should all be here for the same purpose, and that we should not forget that purpose because we feel that someone else has forgotten it first. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:46, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tex

Agree completely with JoshuaZ. If all controversial blocks were immediately brought to AN/I, life would be much easier here. As it stands, Bish did what she thought was right to get FT2 to discuss something he has been saying for months that he would discuss. Others didn't seem to think that was the right approach, so the block was undone. The arbs aren't needed in this case and I doubt they could be impartial if they were to take up the case. Tex (talk) 22:50, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: Wow, a lot happens when one is not around, huh? I did want to follow up with a comment to Elonka's comment about Bish saying, "Over the last year, she seems to be spending more time engaging in wiki-dramas than actually working on the encyclopedia. If Bish wishes to resume the excellent article work which she is capable of, she should be encouraged to do so." Have you checked Bish's contribs, Elonka? She seems to be creating a nice little article in userspace at the moment. I don't believe you are one to be making comments about other admin's use of the tools and whether they should keep them, are you?
Finally, the new arbs seem to be following the same path as the old ones. I was really hoping they would usher in a change, but it doesn't look like it. Issuing a motion to de-sysop Bish for one block? That's definately got me rethinking my arbcom votes... Tex (talk) 14:42, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sticky Parkin

I believe that certain people have been engaged in badgering and bullying of FT2, as can be seen by parts of his talk page, see this top green bit [21] for an example of more personal attacks on FT2 by Bishonen, on FT's own talk page. This block wasn't meant to solve anything (obviously) but was part of a campaign of slow bullying meant to try and drive FT2 from the project, or make him resign etc. This sort of bullying by should not be tolerated from any editor, and action should be taken to stop people who are engaging in it against whoever is their target of the day. I'm not taking any position on the opinions they had about other stuff that might have happened, but bullying shouldn't be tolerated.Sticky Parkin 22:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Secret

  • I trust FT2 with BLP and AFDs, but he shouldn't be a ArbCom member period. I have not much opinion over the Giano-FT2 wars, but this really sicked my stomach when I first saw it. Sorry if I have to link Wikipedia Review here, and also sorry to JoshuaZ but this topic, tells us that FT2 is untrustworthy with ArbCom. If you review the post further, he released a very private ArbCom email, in which I was involved to a banned editor. I know it was FT2 because I was the one who went to FT2 first in IRC when I first suspected the sock. This turned me heads, and I lost all confidence in FT2 with this incident. I'm surprised he's still in ArbCom, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's the source of all the emails that was leaked by ArbCom. Editors were desyropped for lesser offenses. Secret account 22:57, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry I couldn't reply earlier because I was late to class and needed to leave suddenly, then I went somewhere with some friends. The issue was that I contacted FT2 about the case back in January. It read like it was an email that FT2 was sent in private to the banned user, and it still reads like it. Usually I don't care about wikipolitics like those emails and so forth, but as the case involved myself in a very major and private case, I was extremely ticked off. I was planning to contact Arbcom and FT2 about this matter, but around the same time I was the victim of a smear campaign by trolls in ED, but one of them did something (for reasons I can't explain) and was forced to leave the project for a while.

Evenually I forgot about the issue until yesterday, when of course Bishonen blocked FT2 over a conflict and I was around the project at the time and I got involved into this drama. I was studying FT2 conflict history (most of which I wasn't around at the time) and I finally remembered about the post. I have no idea how to use the mailing list so I thought that FT2 messaged thekohser when in fact it was part of the mailing list email. I also had my suspects becuase FT2 was only mentioned once after, which was a comment that he had a word with me. JoshuaZ mentioned that he was very involved with the post, but I don't understand why that information wasn't leaked. With my lack of understanding of the mailing list and with all the drama involving FT2 and his conflicts so it was easy for anyone to assume him and ignore WP:AGF. I made a strong mistake by posting this here instead of ArbCom instead of making accurasations like this, but I guess I was in a rush and wasn't thinking (late for class). So I apologize to FT2 and the community for that.

I found a few edits, along with a WR comment that caught my eye though and I'm studying this further to see if what I found is accurate enough to put the finger on the editor. I'll email the evidence to ArbCom no later than Monday afternoon, likely by Friday. Note it's going to be very long evidence sheet. I can't work on it today because of school (which I'm late)/work. Secret account 14:18, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Tom harrison

The continued delay resolving this is taking a toll on the community, but I don't see how an arbitration is going to make anything better. Tom Harrison Talk 23:07, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by FT2

Brief points until we find if this is accepted or not.

In this incident, Bishonen knew from my talk page that the matter was being actively discussed by Arbcom. She knew further, that arbitrators had very recently and actively affirmed it was being worked on. She saw my post shortly before that explained quite simply why it was being passed to Arbcom first (broadly, because of off-wiki matters). She had already attacked others in the thread who did not agree with her stated view, calling one a "sycophant" for saying "Whatever happened to WP:NPA?"

As an aside, my own conduct was already submitted to the arbitration committee in full for their scrutiny before these events took place, and this was also known to Bishonen.

Prior to this, Bishonen has a long history of aggressive and belligerent conduct, with extreme bad faith and hostility exhibited at times. (Diffs if case accepted.) So far as I can see this stems back to a personal grudge related to my block of Giano in March 2008 (which was sustained by the community). Since that time she has extended extreme bad faith and animosity, including attacking others who tried to reason or assert reasonable calm conduct.

I am not the first user she has acted this way towards. Bishonen has a lengthy history of animosity and gross inappropriate conduct in connection with other incidents and users [22], and actively stokes fires. I can think of more than one other case of gross bad faith, gross personal attack of non-collegial behavior, and the like, both on and off wiki.

The block itself and her grudges are unimportant; indeed I didn't see it when it happened. The issue here is more 1/ Bishonen has a repeated and habitual style to employ aggressive hostility to other users who she dislikes or who try to suggest better conduct (not just this case), 2/ the use of admin tools in furtherance of that personal matter, 3/ the keen willingness to so escalate a delicate situation rather than calm it.

Diffs and further evidence when we find if the case is accepted.

(And nothing in this changes or detracts from the fact I have a commitment to be open to the community about various matters too. That remains as it was before this incident, actively progressed and awaiting definitive Arbcom feedback.)

FT2 (Talk | email) 23:01, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FT2, you are making serious allegations against an admin. Per our usual practices, diffs are need to show that a problem exists before a case is opened. I'm concerned that perception will be that the Committee accepted your word for it because you are an arb instead of needing diffs to support the claims. Does that make sense? If so, please consider refactoring the part of your statement that does not have diffs to support the claims. FloNight♥♥♥ 15:42, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Privatemusings

yebbut did you lie to alex, FT? I think Slim's probably put it best when she sort of highlighted the fact that the longer you avoid the question, the greater the damage to the project. Personally, I find the 'this is all very complicated, and it's being attended to' line wholly unconvincing in the light of posts by Thatcher (and for further reasons) - you made a post to Alex, was it true? Privatemusings (talk) 23:03, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ps. I view FT's writeup, particularly in regard to Bishonen, as dishonest and inaccurate. Privatemusings (talk) 23:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Majorly

Bishonen has been involved in a long conflict with FT2, and as of late, has been posting more frequently to his talk page demanding he give answers over a question (not relevant what question). She is not the only one to do this, but this makes her in a direct conflict. Bishonen then notifies FT2 she has blocked him, and blocks him with her sockpuppet admin account, Bishzilla, indefinitely, then posts to AN/I explaining why. Her purpose for blocking seems to be "I wanted to try and get his attention" and "His not answering a question is disruptive". Neither of these points are things to block a long-term editor over. I won't comment on FT2's lack of answers, but it is not disruptive, and the manner in which Bishonen has posted to FT2's talk page, has sometimes been quite hostile. The main issue here is of course the blatant conflict of interest, and the obvious inappropriateness of this block. Bishonen is not a new admin. She knows perfectly well what will cause drama and what won't. She knows the dispute resolution methods. There's no way Bishonen placed the block thinking it would stick until FT2 opened up. This may sound bad faith, but I honestly believe it - I think she placed the block to draw attention to FT2's problem. This is, very clearly, abuse of admin rights - there is a difference between misuse and abuse. I honestly think Bishonen has abused the rights here, not maliciously as such, but in a sort of desperation to get FT2 to listen. I do not think she is suited to continue as an admin. Majorly talk 23:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DuncanHill

This RfArb appears to me to be an attempt to draw attention away from FT2's continuing failure to answer simple, legitimate questions. His persistent failure to do this is undermining Arbcom, and is a significant source of disruption generally. DuncanHill (talk) 23:08, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by VirtualSteve

I concur with the overall statements being made from Durova onwards that Bishzilla acted improperly in her blocking of FT2. In my view Bishzilla has attempted to stretch the definition of "disruption" so as to force FT2 to comment. She did so without seeking support from the community so as to force a response from FT2 - which is not an appropriate reason for blocking FT2. Community interest in her perceived inaction by FT2 could have been easily gained if she had proposed a block rather than unilaterally occasioning it. Her actions at best do not represent clear, uninvolved thinking on her part. That said, (and in response to Jehochman's suggestion that we pass the decision on to Jimbo), Jimbo has already adequately commented in my view here - including a statement that the ArbCom has been in daily, careful, and thoughtful discussions of this issue with FT2, with dozens of messages so far this year including by my count 14 emails this morning along (pre-Bishonen block). There is no reason whatsoever for drama and excitement, and Bishonen should not have done this. I am taking no action at this time... Towards this fact I propose that a desysopping of Bishzilla aka Bishonen is not required at this time - but future disruption of wikipedia along these lines should end in that result.--VS talk 23:38, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SheffieldSteel

If the ArbCom accepts this case and finds against Bish, some editors will view this as closing ranks, punishing the admin who had the temerity to challenge an arbitrator, proof that ArbCom doesn't deserve our confidence etc etc. If on the other hand the ArbCom lets Bish off the hook, a different set of editors will begin to grind a different set of axes - admin abuse, the cabal closing ranks, proof that the admin corps doesn't deserve our confidence, etc etc. In addition to the political implications of a conflict between two long-standing wikipedians, each with their friends and enemies, there are also the good faith concerns of many editors and admins to consider. In short, this case is a recipe for massive drama with little foreseeable upside. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 23:48, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by AuburnPilot

For gross incompetence, Bishonen/Bishzilla should be desysopped permanently. I've seen some utterly stupid actions in my time here, but this beats all. Bishonen/Bishzilla's block of FT2 was dumber than sticking a fork in an electrical socket and an undeniable misuse of the admin tools. We can live with one less brainless admin; there's enough of them already. - auburnpilot talk 23:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Giano

I suggest this case is dismissed, and the Arbcom re-focus their attentions as to why this matter has been allowed to arise in the first place. That people, obviously Bishonen, feel time has run out is hardly surprising - It has dragged on for far too long. Clearly something untoward has been going on, or we would not all be here. Secrecy breeds secrecy and then contempt. We now seem to have a large and unattractive pile of contempt - someone needs to shovel it away fast, I believe this to be a matter for JWales himself. However, while inexperienced the Arbcom are not wiki-virgins, they have been, like most of us, around the block a few time, this situation is deplorable - rather than blame Bishonen, or anyone else within grabbing distance, if JWales will not, then the Arbcom needs to look at the source of the problem and deal with it, and deal with it fast - or is this to be yet another famed case of shoot the messenger? - A habit so favoured by the old Arbcom. Giano (talk) 00:12, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Jtrainor

FT2 needs to be punted, but an indef ban of this nature is a hasty and improper way to do it. A better way would be to seek consensus for community action of some kind (a ban or otherwise) and then proceed accordingly. Jtrainor (talk) 03:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:R. Baley

Really? You guys are going to try and desysop Bish over this? Please re-think and vote with a clear head. This action is not a smart move. . .there is no emergency. . .
Disappointedly,
R. Baley (talk) 05:48, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Shoemaker's Holiday

I think there is one thing that must be said here:

The Arbcom has a habit of delaying action too long, and preventing arbiters from being able to answer simple questions. This tends to add to the drama. A good recent example was the Orangemarlin incident earlier this year, where the lack of any arbiter response for several days allowed a heated situation to spiral out of control, while a clear provisional statement would have at least began to calm things.

Several months to answer a question is simply ridiculous, and should be considered a complete failure of arbcom procedures. I would suggest that the Arbcom reconsiders how these cases are handled, in order to prevent dispute escalation by forcing people into silence while bureaucracy happens, when what is needed is a spokesperson to make appropriate calming words and explanations.

Perhaps an ex-arbiter could be chosen as a spokesperson, with the responsibility and freedom to act quickly in response to such issues. Perhaps some other option would work. However, something must change. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 07:15, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Verbal

Decline with a simple warning. FT2 should be removed from the ArbCom due to the lack of confidence the community has in him, and this is the underlying issue. This is equally a failure of ArbCom. Verbal chat 08:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kusma

Blocks shouldn't be used to call attention to an issue. It is pretty clear that Bishonen knows that and chose to ignore this rule. Desysopping is clearly unnecessary as she won't do this again (unless FT2 and the ArbCom choose to drag this out another couple of months; if you want a temp desysop, it should start in a couple of months, not now). The underlying issue (loss of community trust in an ArbCom member) needs to be dealt with instead of delayed and evaded before it leads to loss of community trust in the ArbCom as a whole again. Please be as open as you can -- "trust us, we're working on it" isn't an answer. Kusma (talk) 09:31, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Geogre

This complaint is pure special pleading. Are arbitrators users at Wikipedia? If they are, then the behavior policies apply to them as fully as any other users. Is there a special designation for administrators, arbitrators, 'crats? I.e. is my signature User:Geogre or "Admin":Geogre? Is FT2's, therefore, User:FT2 or "Arbitrator":FT2?

If a person is a user, then that person is subject to the same rules as all other users. If a user has inappropriately invoked oversight, then that person is liable to sanction. If the person continues to eject thousands of words and excuses that would make a tardy high school student blush, then there is nothing left except a block, because that person is refusing to edit openly.

A block should not be used lightly. I hope that everyone knows how much I dislike blocks. If conversation can achieve the goal, it is infinitely preferable to a block, but if discussion will not work, if the user is claiming to be superior to the community, to be special, to be too important, or simply will not discuss, then that person is breaking the only real rule we have, here: honest discussion. I do not support a "point" block, but it is a wholly appropriate use of the tools to block someone who may have committed a policy violation that could have enormous ramifications but who stops the discussion, invokes power, and hides his or her actions. To try to sanction the administrator who issued the block is silly unless there are special users who are not subject to the same rules as everyone else. Geogre (talk) 11:18, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Stifle

Oh, boy. Stifle (talk) 12:42, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:S. Dean Jameson

Succinctly, dealing with the block without dealing with what led to the block is short-sighted to the point of foolhardiness. FT2 has long since lost community confidence, as the VP Arbcom Feedback page indicates very well. The underlying issue is the much more serious issue than one iffy block -- no matter the profile of the person blocked. SDJ 14:55, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tznkai

As a general response to everyone complaining about how the Arbitration Committee is taking to long to resolve the dispute, dragging things out, keeping quiet, etc. etc. etc...

Thirteen days. That is how long the 10 new arbitrators were in office before this started. In those thirteen days, the committee has started a major push for reforms, put together a CU/OS permission policy, restaffed a quickly emptying clerk's office, created two coordinator positions to make sure things don't fall through the cracks, dealt with the normal caseload business of the committee (including the requests for the ever classic episodes and characters/TTN, BLPSE a few times, and betacommand), closed the insanity that is the Ireland names dispute, moved Fringe Science to voting (as of posting there are 5 active cases - all of which have seen movement.) That is a decent amount of work and that is just what we've seen.

Notably a lot of the substantial policy and coordination work was done in response to the election mandate. This is what the community asked for.

As for the complaints that the "FT2 issue" wasn't handled more publicly, think about that real hard for a few seconds. I have and what I've come up with is this: the way to handle this situation that produces the least drama and the highest chance for a successful conclusion is, from the observers standpoint, completely indistinguishable from nothing at all, until it reaches closure. It probably also takes more than thirteen days.

TL;DR: If good faith is too much, at least give the Arbiters some patience.--Tznkai (talk) 16:34, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (2/7/0/3)

  • Comment. As Jimbo has noted, this is a matter that we have been discussing. As others have noted, the block itself is being handled on the community level. That said, I must express some frustration with the various requests and comments demanding that ArbCom do something about various long-term and tangled issues. Ten of seventeen arbitrators are brand new. It's not even two weeks into the new year and official seating of the new arbs. We're quite simply not going to hash through all these outstanding issues overnight, even the ones with high priority. There are several outstanding issues, multiple ongoing cases, and several appeals emails. On top of that, we are trying to address a number of reform issues, alteration of some arbitration pages, catch up on all the old but still relevant matters, and so on. But please, give us a chance to get settled in, get our bearings and hash out a lot of these issues. We are working through things as best as we can and over the next few weeks our progress on various matters will become much more obvious (with some matters addressed sooner than later). Vassyana (talk) 23:00, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Decline, without prejudice, insofar as this request concerns Bish'. If there's a pattern of recent problems with Bishzilla's use of admin tools, or there's good reason to believe Bish' will misuse the tools going forward, people know where to find the appropriate RfC forum and how to file a case to examine that distinct issue if necessary. This particular situation and the heavy focus on one bad block would just make a case on this issue a mess of drama and tangled tangential information. Vassyana (talk) 12:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Further commenr re: FT2. The Committee is actively discussing how to best proceed right now. There are multiple options being considered and we need to permit enough time for all of the arbitrators to have a chance to see, review and contribute to the discussion. (That's just the reality of differing time zones and log-in times.) I know people don't want to just hear "trust us, we're working on it". However, I'd please ask for a minimal amount of patience. This is a very unusual circumstance and we are doing the best we can to move things forward as quickly as possible. Vassyana (talk) 12:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I will make it a comment at this stage, possibly to be changed, although I think it unlikely. The request here was to examine Bishonen's actions through the agency of Bishzilla, and did not refer to the use of oversight on some edits by FT2. As is shown by the comments from other editors, it would be quite impossible to take a case on that basis and it would also go against one of the principles of arbitration on wikipedia which is that we examine the whole dispute. As Jimbo has kindly confirmed on the ANI thread, we have been discussing privately over the last few days how we might resolve the issue of the oversights to the community's satisfaction. I am firmly of the opinion that handling the oversights issue by way of an ordinary Request for arbitration heard by the Arbitration Committee would not be an appropriate way of proceding because we have all worked closely with FT2. Because the two issues, Bishonen's block and the propriety of the use of oversight, are fundamentally linked, I think it would be dangerous to accept this case as it is. Rather I would prefer for us to agree a suitable way of inquiring independently into the oversights, and only look at Bishonen's actions after that has concluded. Sam Blacketer (talk) 23:08, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline at this time. The request for arbitration, while made in good faith, invites a virtually unprecedented level of disputation. Frankly, this is where I would normally post my plea for calm, the avoidance of drama, and the like, but if I do that here it will sound like a re-run. I anticipate that there will be further developments in the reasonably near term regarding the underlying situation. I will say nothing else at the moment, because there is so much that could be said. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:33, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline at this time, I can't say much but arbcom is trying its best to nut out some solutions to the impasse which will make hearing this case (hopefully) unnecessary. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Accept a case dedicated to the block by Bishzilla, but recommend that we delay it until we have sorted out the underlying issue. John Vandenberg (chat) 02:27, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Accept; with the provisio that the actual handling of the case is to take place after the handling of the FT2-related oversighted edits is handled (which should be fairly soon). — Coren (talk) 03:25, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline per Newyorkbrad and Casliber. Risker (talk) 05:32, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - no opinion yet on any case or the underlying issues here, but want to make a statement here and leave a placeholder (for lack of anywhere else) for a further statement to try and shed some light on what ArbCom has been doing for the past few weeks about this. Will post further on this tomorrow. For now, I want to echo what Vassyana said above: "We are working through things as best as we can and over the next few weeks our progress on various matters will become much more obvious (with some matters addressed sooner than later)." It should be noted that FT2 has made a statement in response to Thatcher's post here, which may or may not answer the questions that have been raised. Carcharoth (talk) 07:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don't think a temp desysop is needed. I do not agree with the block, and think it was unwise similar to the reasons stated by most user in the discussion on the AN/I. I would consider a case if compelling evidence is provided that she is using her tools to win a dispute. But since she took it to a Notice Board for discussion, and did not wheel war, I see no need for removal of her access at this time. FloNight♥♥♥ 12:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Further Comment. I agree, generally, that the Committee needs to take a stronger stand against admins that are using their tools in a manner escalates a dispute. But given the particulars of this situation, I do not think the Committee should extend our previous criteria for doing a temp desysop. It is my view that a significant portion of the Community will see this strong response as the Committee taking a stronger stand because the block was done against an arb. FloNight♥♥♥ 13:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline for the moment. A case to address only the block, without examining the underlying dispute, would be pointless; and I'm not convinced that the latter is best dealt with through an arbitration case. Kirill 12:37, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline. Something definitely needs to be done, btu i don't think a case is it. Wizardman 14:50, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline for now, per FloNight and Kirill. --ROGER DAVIES talk 15:10, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Motion

1) Bishzilla is temporarily desysoped until the underlying issue has been resolved and a separate Arbitration case can be considered.

Support:
  1. Proposed. The committee has been steadily considering the underlying issue that prompted this block by Bishzilla. The block is very questionable and warrants an arbitration case solely focused on it, but the underlying issue needs to be resolved first. John Vandenberg (chat) 02:27, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support. This is a block in furtherance of a political dispute, and completely beyond the pale. This needs a case, but a desysop until the underlying issue is first resolved appears appropriate. — Coren (talk) 03:23, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose:
  1. I don't see a desysop being necessary here. Wizardman 02:48, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  2. No need, I don't think this is going to be a repeat performance. Risker (talk) 05:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  3. The block was a Very Bad Idea. I'm presuming Bish' gets the point. Absent evidence to the contrary, or that there is a real risk of Bishzilla abusing the tools going forward, a desysop is not appropriate at this juncture. Vassyana (talk) 07:04, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  4. At this point, a desysopping would only throw more fuel onto the fire. Kirill 12:36, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Per my above comments. FloNight♥♥♥ 13:14, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Although the block was pointy and precipitate, it is unlikely to be repeated. A temporary desysop would therefore create more drama than it prevents. --ROGER DAVIES talk 15:17, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Oppose substantially per the reasons offered by my opposing colleagues above. However, all administrators should note that blocking a user "to force further discussion or action on [an] issue" is generally inappropriate, as reflected in this motion adopted by the committee in September 2008 on the unapproved admin bots request. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:31, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain:
  1. Abstain for the moment. Wading through the diffs is demanding. Tempers are highly charged and I am not sure this would not escalate things. I'd accept a promise from Bish not to do it again. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:08, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Abstain for now. Unlikely to support desysop, but also unwilling to in any way endorse the behaviour here. Carcharoth (talk) 07:18, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ayn Rand Limbo

Initiated by Idag (talk) at 01:05, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties


Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request


Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by Idag

Ayn Rand is a controversial figure and her article leads to the involvement of personal feelings for a number of editors. The recent series of disputes have resulted in huge edit wars[38] that necessitated three full-protects in the past month.[39] The talk page discussion is extremely bitter and, at this point, has violated almost every single discussion policy that WP has. People are so riled up that even a request for mediation is viewed as some type of assault on the article's integrity.[40] Idag (talk) 01:40, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Response to SlimVirgin
I know this isn't my section, but another editor has indicated a strong resistance to mediation and the objector still wants time to think about his choice. Could we hold off on scrapping this request on the very likely possibility that someone won't agree to mediation? Idag (talk) 01:55, 13 January 2009 (UTC) Comment moved to correction section by clerk. Daniel (talk) 02:30, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SlimVirgin

I filed a Request for Mediation, but it was rejected because one party disagreed; see Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Ayn Rand I must say I find it not entirely reasonable that 10 people can agree to mediation, but it's rejected because of one objection, and rejected immediately before that person even has a chance to reconsider. Anyway, it's hard to see how we can progress without mediation or arbitration because of the strength of feeling. A small number of pro-Rand editors are opposing pretty well any attempt to improve the article if it involves adding criticism of Rand or removing praise, even very repetitive praise. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:22, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The lone objector has removed his objection, and Ryan has reversed the rejection of the RfM, so it may still go ahead. [41] SlimVirgin talk|contribs 01:45, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved Synergy

Wait. We are talking about Ayn Rand, the eminent 20th-century Russian-American philosopher, right? This request seems a bit premature. And to respond to SlimV: thats how it works unfortunately. You can't resolve a dispute with -1 parties, sadly. Synergy 01:28, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Slp1

I tend to agree with SlimVirgin that it is too bad that mediation is rejected so quickly after just one editor has declined it. I note that the editor concerned, User:ChildofMidnight has now retracted his/her position [42] stating that s/he didn't understand the significance of the action. For all who are watching, I urge all involved editors to sign up for the mediation, or I suspect this venue will end being the final port of call. --Slp1 (talk) 01:47, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by TallNapoleon

I would REALLY prefer that we try mediation before going to ARBCOM. TallNapoleon (talk) 03:46, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Snowded

I concur with TallNapoleon, but I am not optimistic that progress can be made. --Snowded TALK 10:37, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/10/0/0)

Clarifications and other requests

Shortcuts

Place requests related to amendments of prior cases, appeals, and clarifications on this page. If the case is ongoing, please use the relevant talk page. Requests for enforcement of past cases should be made at Arbitration enforcement. Requests to clarify general Arbitration matters should be made on the Talk page. To create a new request for arbitration, please go to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. Place new requests at the top. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/How-to other requests

Arbitration Committee proceedings

Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.

[edit]
Open cases

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[edit]
Recently closed cases (Past cases)
Case name Closed
Yasuke 13 Nov 2024

Currently, no requests for clarification or amendment are open.

No arbitrator motions are currently open.


EK3 clarification

Statement by Everyking

Earlier this month, the ArbCom voted to uphold the sanctions applied to me under the terms of the EK3 case. I am very uncertain about how the "restraining order" regarding Phil Sandifer is meant to be applied in various situations, however, and if this restriction is going to be in place indefinitely, a clear understanding of its nature is necessary for me to continue participating in the project comfortably.

The ArbCom apparently imposed and upholds this restriction based on the belief that I am a lunatic who is eager for the opportunity to contact Phil Sandifer and annoy him to the best of my ability. As I have repeatedly explained, this is sheer fantasy, and my only concern has been to see the ArbCom pass a mutual restriction that would equally apply to Phil Sandifer, thereby mitigating or neutralizing the severely negative effect this "restraining order" has on my reputation and community standing. If the ArbCom is just trying to keep me from contacting Phil Sandifer, the restriction serves no purpose, as I have no desire to contact him. There are, however, a variety of real, plausible circumstances under which I might cross paths with Phil, and it is completely unclear how I am supposed to behave in those circumstances.

One example that I have presented in the past is that of AfD: if Phil nominates an article for deletion, am I still allowed to register my opinion on the article as part of the discussion? I have been seeking an answer to that question for years. Furthermore, what if he merely comments—before me—on someone else's AfD nomination; am I allowed to make my own comment in that situation?

How should the "restraining order" be applied to articles? Am I allowed to edit articles that have been previously edited by Phil Sandifer? Am I allowed to edit in subject areas where Phil Sandifer has taken an interest (for example, webcomics)? What about discussions on the AN pages and the like: can I comment on an issue there if Phil has already commented (I have done this before and nothing happened, but I was very nervous about possible consequences)? Can I comment on an issue if he raises the issue himself (for example, by starting the thread)? Perhaps the best way to articulate the problem is to ask: am I prohibited from mere proximity to Phil Sandifer, or am I prohibited from actual interaction with him/commentary about him? In the past, restrictions have always been interpreted to my disadvantage, meaning that I must assume the former and avoid situations involving any degree of proximity. This could lead to an absurd situation in which I create an article, Phil fixes a typo on it, and I am thus prohibited from continuing with my planned work to expand the article further. Naturally this problem makes my participation on the project uncomfortable, and I call on the ArbCom to at least interpret the ruling in some reasonable fashion that gives me more freedom to participate fully in the project. Everyking (talk) 18:22, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Responding to Jayvdb, I am hoping that the ArbCom will state that I am allowed to participate in AfDs started by Phil Sandifer; contrary to what you say, this does in fact need clarification, as it seems to be understood at present that I am not allowed to do that. In November 2008, FloNight told me to not comment on AfDs started by Phil, although I do not know whether the other arbitrators agreed with her about that. Regarding the matter of "editing interaction", that is exactly the kind of thing I need clarified. If Phil has "recently edited" an article and I have not, does that I mean I am banned from contributing to that article?
While it is true that I was not blocked during 2008, this is because I was extremely careful about avoiding any kind of editorial proximity to Phil Sandifer, and on a few occasions when I did edit a page after he did, such as on ANI, I was quite nervous about possible consequences (possibly I escaped being blocked only because no one noticed). I feel that I should not have to deal with that kind of thing. Everyking (talk) 20:39, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In response to Phil, these are not just hypothetical situations. In April 2008 there was a case where Phil nominated a slew of articles for deletion (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2004 United States presidential election_controversy and irregularities) and I was unable to vote. I contacted the ArbCom privately seeking permission to vote, but my request was ignored. Furthermore, this is a constant issue on a variety of pages such as ANI, where I am simply not sure what is allowed and feel that simply registering my opinion about a matter on which Phil has already commented is a dangerous gamble. Everyking (talk) 21:36, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In response to Coren, I have pointed to a specific instance immediately above. It is deeply unfair to keep me under this scarlet letter restriction indefinitely and then punish me further by effectively upholding the most extreme interpretation of the ruling. To date I have respected the ruling very carefully, even when that means excluding myself from participation in various matters that interest me, and I would expect the ArbCom to acknowledge that by clarifying the situation in favor of a less severe interpretation. Everyking (talk) 04:03, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As a test case, I have now made this edit to an AfD in which Phil has already commented. I ask the ArbCom to clarify whether or not that is an acceptable edit. Everyking (talk) 05:21, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Responding to Vassyana, yes, I am aware of that and do not consider it an appropriate method under ordinary circumstances. However, I have been trying to get the ArbCom to address this problem for years, and now some of you are telling me that, because I refrained assiduously from editing the same pages as Phil, there are no specific incidents to consider and therefore nothing can be done. In other words, I stand to be punished for following the restriction so strictly; it's like keeping someone under house arrest and then, when they ask to be released from house arrest, telling them that there is no need for that, because they haven't been leaving the house anyway. That's ridiculous, and I'm not willing to stand around and suffer for my own caution, so I figured under the circumstances that it would be best to give the ArbCom a specific incident to consider.
I think the "bright line", if we're going to have one, should be direct interaction or commentary. In other words, I think the ArbCom should allow me to comment on the same page as Phil, provided I don't comment in response to Phil or make reference to him, and also to edit the same articles as Phil, provided that the edits are uncontroversial article improvements. Everyking (talk) 15:26, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Phil Sandifer

If there are specific areas where Everyking feels unduly burdened by the restriction, let him bring them up. But I would rather not turn the restriction into something that becomes about rules lawyering, or that requires my constant negotiation and defending of. I've already had to deal with requests to lift this restriction three times in the last few months, which are three times more than I want to be dealing with Everyking. If there's a specific issue underlying this, fine - last time he brought it up I was perfectly willing to allow him to ask questions on my arbcom bid, in the interests of fairness. But I would rather not be in this position of having to constantly negotiate the parole in the general case, or in an attempt to engage in an extended modification of it that can go through a thousand absurd hypotheticals. But come on. What if I made a minor edit to an article Everyking had created? Really? What if I start an AfD? I do less than one of those a month. If there's an actual issue here, let's hear it. These are ridiculous hypotheticals.

Can the arbcom please rule that there will be no further general case motions about this parole for some nice, long amount of time? This constant having to come back to RFAr to de facto negotiate with Everyking rather defeats the purpose. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:22, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other user

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • The outstanding remedy prevents "commenting .. about", or "interacting with" Phil Sandifer. If you both find yourself at the same xfD, both parties are expected to only comment on the article or page itself rather than the editor, so no clarification is needed there. If you regularly appear at communal discussions where Phil has commented already, or on topics that you know he has keen interest in, eyebrows would be raised.Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Alastair_Haines#Motion_re_Abtract added a bit of clarity to what would be viewed as editing interaction: editing (including but not limited to reverting on) pages that [party 1] has recently edited but [party 2] has not previously edited. Everyking, you mentioned that you have needed to err on the side of caution because "In the past, restrictions have always been interpreted to [your] disadvantage". You havent been blocked often, so I am wondering when has this been interpreted to your disadvantage? Was it misinterpreted at all during 2008? i.e. did you have any close calls with someone threatening to block? John Vandenberg (chat) 20:21, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unless there are specific incidents where implementation of this restriction has caused problems because of vagarities or ambiguities, I see no clarification to be made. — Coren (talk) 03:43, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Everyking, you've been around quite long enough to know that performing edits just to make a point or test the boundaries of restrictions is frowned upon by our community norms. It certainly isn't the way to get a favorable response. That said, has the restriction been unduly burdensome to you? How, specifically? (Being very honest, the AfD examples don't convince me. Phil nominates relatively very few articles for deletion and it's not like there's any shortage of AfDs to comment upon.) Can you give examples of how the restriction has been used against you as you assert? Presuming the restriction stays in place as is, since the purportedly vague nature of the restriction is a main part of your point, what bright line boundaries would you suggest? I should state openly that I'm skeptical as a general rule when it comes to claims of difficulty/unfairness in disentangling. Wikipedia is a huge and sprawling place with a ridiculous number of activities and topics to participate in. It should not be a herculean burden to disengage from and avoid another editor. Vassyana (talk) 12:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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