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is anyone else also doing ultimately fine + dying of stress + it’s not that bad + if i don’t wake up tomorrow hotter and better at every hobby its fucking over for me
another reason why bernard is disliked is aside from the poor breakup with steph aside, the way they used steph AND ariana as props for bernard. For Steph Like having her the long term love interest say meeting the new love interest is the best day ever when she (or the audience) barely knows him came across as using her to prop him up, which isn't very respectful to her character IMO. The second thing was that her reaction was made odder in that Tim just finished apologizing for treating her so badly, and then introduced her to Bernard without asking her first which is very disrespectful alone -but his prior treatment makes it worse. That made her reaction to him along with the narrative not framing doing so as such, come across as her being more or a less a doormat for Tim to walk all over and lack of self-respect on her end.
As for Ariana, this post from the blog ectonurites sumps it up:
"I think Ariana was definitely used as a prop to tell this story with little consideration given to her as an individual—the author uses Ariana’s family’s deli restaurant as a setting and uses her past relationship to Tim as a way to connect things but doesn’t actually have her do anything else in the story. Except, well, mention Tim & Bernard’s relationship.
Now, to be fair, there really are times in stories (especially short ones as part of an anthology like this) where you just need a throwaway character to do something for a moment for the sake of moving the plot along. Acting like every single character who shows up in a story needs to be Super Important And Fleshed Out In That Specific Story is unrealistic and frankly ridiculous.
But but but but… a character who was once a prominent love interest & supporting character for one of the leads you are writing about isn’t the same as a nameless throwaway, you know? Especially when you’re mentioning that connection specifically—of her being Tim’s first girlfriend (rather than it just being a wordless cameo or something) in a story that’s premise hinges on Tim having dating experience.
Ariana is a character who hasn’t appeared since like 1999, so pulling her out of the woodwork to be used for one panel while also… needing to make a huge logic leap with her to make it even work—something the writer felt fine with just explaining as having happened off-panel—is really frustrating and annoying. I’m talking, of course, about Ari just suddenly knowing Tim’s identity as Robin. You know, the root of most challenges that they faced in their relationship because he couldn’t be honest with her about it. Yeah that’s just no big deal now, apparently.
That’s what pisses me off about this the most—bringing her back only to brush off the sources of conflict between her and Tim and make everything all okie dokie in a completely unearned way. Now to be clear: I don’t think it’s a bad thing for Ariana to be like, nice about Tim & Bernard being together now—especially because in her last speaking appearance before this that I’m aware of [Robin #66], the two of them had cleared some air on still wanting to be friends even though they’re no longer dating. But I do think using her one speech bubble of dialogue to mention how she ‘owes’ him and Bernard a dinner feels off.
If there were like… an actual conversation between Ari & Tim and during that she said something nice about Tim & Bernard/something about being happy for him, then I don’t think it’d feel so weird. And I will say, this is a short story so I get there not being the page space to resolve Tim & Ari’s history in a story that’s not about that, I really do. But this is the first time she’s shown up in about 25 years! Using her in a story and having a big reveal like Tim’s identity and not touching on any of that but making sure you do use her single dialogue bubble to mention her ‘owing’ Tim & to mention the relationship btwn Tim & his current love interest??? That just feels weeeird!!!!!!
It feels like her purpose in this story was largely to show a lack of conflict in Tim’s current life and that everyone around him is super enthusiastically pro Tim being with Bernard, without actually considering much about her as a character. Which… again, this story isn’t about her, it’s about Tim & Damian… but… it’s still just frustrating when this isn’t a character we can just go read some other book published in the last two decades to see her actually get used well in, this is a character we very well may not see for another 25 years after this"
Sorry I still cant get my head around ariana being told tims identity as robin off panel. The issues in their relationship literally stem from tims inability to be honest and open to the point where she thinks hes cheating on her. their miscommunication is key to their relationship mishaps and downfall. Revealing he's robin to her off panel is stupid and unnecessary, not to mention dangerous especially since after red robin 2009, we know tim is in the public eye. he is a public figure and the more people knowing his identity, the more dangerous it is. You cannot tell me bruce would be chill with this either. Like tim isnt allowed to tell his closest friends in young justice his identity which impacts the teams trust in him and leads to him leaving the actual team, but sure he can tell his ex girlfriend for no reason.
And i hate how they broke off tim and stephs relationship so callously. like they were actually so cute together and breaking it off so that tim can be bisexual just feels like more bisexual erasure than it is representation. Bisexual people can be in heterosexual relationships. like explore how their relationship fell apart like they did with every other love interest, explore how tims bisexuality affects him as a person and as a character, and then introduce a boyfriend later. it just seems to stupid to cast her aside for some random guy in one issue and then just have steph as being perfectly fine with meeting the guy her boyfriend dumped her for. Tim and steph have been through so much together, i feel like their breakup couldve been better explored.
Anyway, great points. I agree 100%.
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Since people are still confused about Tims dating history and over-exaggerating how big of a slut he is or saying that his type is blondes, I'm going to clear some things up.
Also, I'm counting actual canon relationships, not just random women who kissed him because I cant be bothered and some of those were grown ass women kissing a fifteen year old.
First girlfriend: Ariana Dzerchenko - Tims first girlfriend when he was fourteen was a black haired Russian immigrant who lived with her uncle. Their relationship was kinda strained because Tim couldn't tell her everything about himself as Robin and she kept accusing him of cheating on her and then cheating on him and when she tried to admit to him that she went out with another guy he fell asleep and her uncle tried to kill him and they were forbidden from seeing each other. It was a whole thing. By the end of the relationship, it was very strained and they were obviously trying to make something that couldn't work, work.
Tim technically kissed Stephanie after she saved him from getting buried alive with her dad, and went on kinda dates with her as spoiler and robin when Ariana and Tim were forbidden from seeing each other. I think Spoiler and Robin kissed during those kinda dates after Tim and Ariana were allowed to see each other again and trying to make their relationship work. Tim was going to tell Ariana but she dumped him so the whole issue was resolved.
This is the only instance of Tim cheating. Yes, it was very messy. But it was mainly chuck dixon trying to push for Timsteph to be together and force steph into a manic pixie dream role and make her seem so much more rational and reasonable than ariana and not like other girls.
Second Girlfriend: Stephanie Brown. Honestly, they were so cute together. Especially when they written by Jon Lewis. Steph starts off not knowing anything about Tim but Batman betrays his trust and reveals Tims identity to her when he goes missing. Their relationship only becomes stronger though and they lean on each other and are honest and open and Tim tries to kill someone for her. They loved each other and I loved them together. They genuinely looked out for eachother.
And then, something stupid happens.
Darla decides to kiss Tim instead of saying hey I like you when Tim has said repeatedly that he has a girlfriend. Steph was spying on Tim and runs away just before Tim cuts off the kiss and tells darla that she shouldnt have done that. This is what people also bring up for Tim cheating. but. literally.
Anyway, war games, darla dies, steph dies, jack dies, dana is hospitalised with grief and darla comes back to life. what they had i wouldnt call a relationship, especially because tim isnt in the right mental state for one right now, what with losing steph and all. And darla isnt in the right headspace either, so they didnt actually date even though people keep trying to bring up darla as a relationship.
Third girlfriend: Zoanne Wilkins. An african american high achieving girl who is on her way to harvard. I love her, and she and Tim are similar in the way that they are academically smart and inclined and shes understanding of what hes struggled through with losing his parents and getting kidnapped right in front of her and everything. She is understanding, but ultimately they call off the relationship and stay just friends.
Also weird thing with Cassie I wouldnt count because it was a grief fueled depressive spiral that was bound to end badly because they were both thinking of kon while it was happening. so i dont think they really dated
Fourth girlfriend: Tamara Fox. Tam is different because she knew Tim was Red Robin from the start and she has been involved in so much crazy shit with him i dont know why she hasn't beat him up yet. They werent really together a whole lot, but they had like a fake engagement to get Vicki Vale off their back and hey it worked. They
And then there was this weird thing with lynx who was maybe a good guy maybe a bad guy and tim broke her out of prison and they kept like getting freaky on rooftops. It was weird, but this kinda happened at the same time of the Timtam stuff. Not really dating, just a few makeouts on the roof. So cheating? If Tim and Tam were actually dating, which was really unclear.
Idk what happens in new 52 cos i just. ignore. all that.
Tim and steph are back together! In young justice 2019 at least. And they are so cute and in love.
But then they break up off panel and Tim comes out as bi and dates bernard. Its very much a disservice to this relationship that is so iconic and amazing and im not saying that tim being bi and tim dating bernard is bad or wrong, im just saying that tim and steph not having any real closure on their relationship is not good because they kind of just thrust tim into this realtionship with bernard built on nothing. but its whatever.
First boyfriend: Bernard Dowd. His friend at louise e grieve memorial, before it got shot up and the third person in their trio died. when the school got shut down, people were sent all over the place, Bernard to some rich private school and Tim to bludhaven where he drops out of school completely. They dont keep in touch, which is pretty much explicitely states in robin 1993 when bernard makes a rough estimation to darla as to where tim is. but still. its very random and kind of bland and kind of like they just forced a boyfriend onto tim to be like hey look we have a bisexual character.
I just wish there was a proper build up instead of it kind of being random. And breaking up with steph off panel. and just there being nothing of substance of their relationship. all of his other relationships show conflict and resolution. Secret identities play an issue with his ability to communicate, his inability to be honest, his grief and issues with balancing his lives and living up to expectations of a relationship. Does bernard know tim is robin? ive seen those pride covers and like i read td:r but idek when he reveals hes robin. it was a while ago but still. does bernard know what happened to darla? also why would they reunite two of the trio and not bring back darla. like where is their magic best friend? it could be so interesting to see their relationship change from when they were in high school to young adulthood but no. They had so much potential, but the execution was just oh look hes gay and has boyfriend now. theyre happy, no conflict, no substance, no nothing.
Anyway. Four official relationships. I feel like thats normal for like a 19-21 year old. Hes not that big of a cheater, but he is still messy and weird and has strange homoerotic friendships. anyway. dc bring back zoanne wilkins and darla aquista and i will love you.
Building up on bernard, he pretty much fails as a love interest in like every way
There is no real good reason to have him paired with Tim. He only appeared in six issues and none of his interactions with Tim gave us insight into who Tim was as a character or lead to any meaningful developments. The whole 'he represents the War Games era of Tim in terms of uncertainity' or 'his civilian life before losing his dad' that was used by the author, is just untrue as we never see Tim seriously appreciate his friendship like he does with say Ives, or the people at Brentwood as something that keeps him grounded or as a distraction from the hero life/normaly he needs nor do his interactions with Tim show said uncertainty like the struggle of balancing the civilian/hero life that we saw his above friends do. All of his appearances are either comic relief or a springboard/exposition for more important developments such as Tim's relationship with Darla.
There is also how he wasn't a close friend of Tim and more often than not, Tim was shown to not like him too much. At best they were casual friends and none of their interactions went beyond that. The nicest thing Tim said about him is that he "THINKS he's going to END UP LIKING" him not that he actually does so which at best shows Tim is willing to give him a shot.
At worst? Well
Yeah. The first panel is his first impression of him while the last three are the LAST interactions/mentions Tim has with him and occur after saying he 'thinks he's going to end up liking him'.
It makes no sense why Tim would even want to reconnect with him let alone date him. Tim's opinion of Bernard went from "I guess we can be friends but this guy is sus to "maybe he's not so bad and deserves a shot" to "nah screw this guy". It's telling we keep getting sold a false meta history of them being super close friends and have Bernard essentially replace Ives to try and sell the pairing.
B. Like it really doesn't do anything for Tim at all.
Bernard doesn't help Tim grow as a character, or even as a person relationship wise as Tim is still doing the same faults he did in past relationships with civilians not telling them he is Robin, keeping secrets, cutting dates/missing them, etc). but they are "resolved" by just making Bernard some ultra perfect guy who knows Tim's identity
Aka the resolution he had with Stephanie in terms of the civilian/hero life balance of having someone who knows both, so Tim is getting a balance he already had and not to mention you can't even say Tim progressed in this manner or learned from his mistakes as he never revealed his ID in the first place, so it requires no growth on his end) (never explained how he does, not to mention watering down Tim's competence in keeping his ID) so it's all moot.
Tim also doesn't progress in his civilian life at all. Like he lives on a boat and (it is said that Bernard helped motivate him to do this but never shown/explained at all and all we see is Bernard saying he likes it and the people there)? Like he doesn't even meaningfuly develop a connection with the people there aside from friendly neighbors at best. As an example There was this "subplot" of them being in danger of being evicted but Tim just doesn't care at all or do anything. Like why not use some of his wealth from his dad or something to like buy people's boats and resell them at a cheaper price so the people can stay?
The people on the boat don't even offer him a meaningful civilian connection as like I said he just doesn't connect with them and even then that civilian connection is kind of moot in the last issue when they all know his identity as Robin so that balance or finding a solution is rendered moot for the same reasons as above as he already found that balance with the Batfamily/YJ friends who know both aspects of his life and again he didn't even it reveal it to them.
Like what do they offer him? People to chill in a non-vigilante way? Like he can already do that with the Batfam/YJ and not to mention that as the series showed the Marina got involved in a lot of Robin related stuff because of Tim's ID, so it's also moot.
Another point is how Bernard for a 'relationship for Tim beyond Robin' really is a relationship where the substance largely comes from Robin. Like aside from Robin is how they got together which Bernard even states in issue 3, in the beginning of issue 7 when Bernard list why he likes Tim all the things he likes about him are reflective of his role as Robin. Like his whole trusting Tim to keep him safe, Tim being special, and Tim being his lucky charm, the examples he uses are of Tim saving him as Robin/being Robin.
And issue 7 also shows like I said above that what saves the relationship is Bernard knowing that Tim is Robin. Not to mention how he really only opens up to Tim/confides in him seriously when Tim is Robin as shown in issue 3 and 9. Hell in issue 3 when he talks about wanting to help Tim, knowing that he knows his ID, when he talks about Tim 'taking too much on his own and not asking for help and loosing himself or whatever' we know it's about Robin.
And issue 10 the grand saving moment for their relationship after the 'falling out' in issue 9 was Bernard saving the day in a Robin related mission and getting the ID reveal (but not really)
Issue 7 highlights how Tim really doesn't do anything for Bernard as Tim. Like all he does is tell him that his parents suck, he's great to make him feel better, and tell us a bunch of stuff about Bernard we've never seen before.....twice and given how the issue kept emphasizing this point (to the point where villains commented on it) and how over the top his parents/with Bernards heroic it felt generic and like the bare minimum and Tim felt like an exposition device.
Tim never really talks to him about his issues with his parents or actually substantially helps him as after Tim does the above it immediately cuts back to their relationship for cute moments. Like Bernard giving him the necklace isn't even connected to Tim 'helping' as he was gonna do that anyway.
Tim as a civilain is just the BF and the real substance comes from Robin (as it was a Robin related mission and Tim saving civilians as Bernard which lead/inspired Bernard trying to save his parents and oh look Robin once again is tied to their relationship)
TLDR: Bernard doesn't make sense as a pairing, doesn't do anything for Tim as a character nor fulfill the purpose he was supposedly brought back for
Exactly! Also thanks for the refresher on tdr i couldn't be fucked to reread it for this post. I feel like if they wanted to pull a best friend from his past stories to incorporate as a best friends to boyfriends pipeline, they had SO MANY more interesting characters to draw on.
Ives is his all time civillian best friend who is his own interesting character and shares a lot in common with Tim. Theyre both massive nerds and genuinely enjoy spending time together. Also, Ives has had personal struggles that makes him seem more than just 'tims best friend'. my man nearly got eaten and saved by robin once, he has beaten cancer, had to move schools a couple of times, got Lyme disease. And Tim and Ives already have a solid relationship to build off of.
Personally, I think Danny Temple could've been cool. He and Tim become really close at Brentwood and then Danny becomes the reincarnated naja naja of Kobra. Hes basically a cult leader, and he knows Tims identity so theres no dancing around any of that stuff. But still, they were close and had a good friendship that in my opinion holds more of a foundation to build a relationship off of than bernard and tim.
Both Danny and Ives have more than just "tims civilian friend" to build off of into a relationship. They have their own characters, struggles, and unique personalities. Even with Bernard, i can see the vision a little. but that doesnt remove the fact that it was poor execution. like they could have at least indicated they kept in touch. They could have brought back Darla, seeing as shes still alive. They could have done something with the shadowpact. Idk, thats just me wanting dc to bring shadowpact back. I wont say there was nothing there, but bernard offers nothing that Tims other love interests do. Even his other friendships actually help Tims character development and teach him how to be better as a person, as a partner, and as a friend. Bernards just kinda there.
Since people are still confused about Tims dating history and over-exaggerating how big of a slut he is or saying that his type is blondes, I'm going to clear some things up.
Also, I'm counting actual canon relationships, not just random women who kissed him because I cant be bothered and some of those were grown ass women kissing a fifteen year old.
First girlfriend: Ariana Dzerchenko - Tims first girlfriend when he was fourteen was a black haired Russian immigrant who lived with her uncle. Their relationship was kinda strained because Tim couldn't tell her everything about himself as Robin and she kept accusing him of cheating on her and then cheating on him and when she tried to admit to him that she went out with another guy he fell asleep and her uncle tried to kill him and they were forbidden from seeing each other. It was a whole thing. By the end of the relationship, it was very strained and they were obviously trying to make something that couldn't work, work.
Tim technically kissed Stephanie after she saved him from getting buried alive with her dad, and went on kinda dates with her as spoiler and robin when Ariana and Tim were forbidden from seeing each other. I think Spoiler and Robin kissed during those kinda dates after Tim and Ariana were allowed to see each other again and trying to make their relationship work. Tim was going to tell Ariana but she dumped him so the whole issue was resolved.
This is the only instance of Tim cheating. Yes, it was very messy. But it was mainly chuck dixon trying to push for Timsteph to be together and force steph into a manic pixie dream role and make her seem so much more rational and reasonable than ariana and not like other girls.
Second Girlfriend: Stephanie Brown. Honestly, they were so cute together. Especially when they written by Jon Lewis. Steph starts off not knowing anything about Tim but Batman betrays his trust and reveals Tims identity to her when he goes missing. Their relationship only becomes stronger though and they lean on each other and are honest and open and Tim tries to kill someone for her. They loved each other and I loved them together. They genuinely looked out for eachother.
And then, something stupid happens.
Darla decides to kiss Tim instead of saying hey I like you when Tim has said repeatedly that he has a girlfriend. Steph was spying on Tim and runs away just before Tim cuts off the kiss and tells darla that she shouldnt have done that. This is what people also bring up for Tim cheating. but. literally.
Anyway, war games, darla dies, steph dies, jack dies, dana is hospitalised with grief and darla comes back to life. what they had i wouldnt call a relationship, especially because tim isnt in the right mental state for one right now, what with losing steph and all. And darla isnt in the right headspace either, so they didnt actually date even though people keep trying to bring up darla as a relationship.
Third girlfriend: Zoanne Wilkins. An african american high achieving girl who is on her way to harvard. I love her, and she and Tim are similar in the way that they are academically smart and inclined and shes understanding of what hes struggled through with losing his parents and getting kidnapped right in front of her and everything. She is understanding, but ultimately they call off the relationship and stay just friends.
Also weird thing with Cassie I wouldnt count because it was a grief fueled depressive spiral that was bound to end badly because they were both thinking of kon while it was happening. so i dont think they really dated
Fourth girlfriend: Tamara Fox. Tam is different because she knew Tim was Red Robin from the start and she has been involved in so much crazy shit with him i dont know why she hasn't beat him up yet. They werent really together a whole lot, but they had like a fake engagement to get Vicki Vale off their back and hey it worked. They
And then there was this weird thing with lynx who was maybe a good guy maybe a bad guy and tim broke her out of prison and they kept like getting freaky on rooftops. It was weird, but this kinda happened at the same time of the Timtam stuff. Not really dating, just a few makeouts on the roof. So cheating? If Tim and Tam were actually dating, which was really unclear.
Idk what happens in new 52 cos i just. ignore. all that.
Tim and steph are back together! In young justice 2019 at least. And they are so cute and in love.
But then they break up off panel and Tim comes out as bi and dates bernard. Its very much a disservice to this relationship that is so iconic and amazing and im not saying that tim being bi and tim dating bernard is bad or wrong, im just saying that tim and steph not having any real closure on their relationship is not good because they kind of just thrust tim into this realtionship with bernard built on nothing. but its whatever.
First boyfriend: Bernard Dowd. His friend at louise e grieve memorial, before it got shot up and the third person in their trio died. when the school got shut down, people were sent all over the place, Bernard to some rich private school and Tim to bludhaven where he drops out of school completely. They dont keep in touch, which is pretty much explicitely states in robin 1993 when bernard makes a rough estimation to darla as to where tim is. but still. its very random and kind of bland and kind of like they just forced a boyfriend onto tim to be like hey look we have a bisexual character.
I just wish there was a proper build up instead of it kind of being random. And breaking up with steph off panel. and just there being nothing of substance of their relationship. all of his other relationships show conflict and resolution. Secret identities play an issue with his ability to communicate, his inability to be honest, his grief and issues with balancing his lives and living up to expectations of a relationship. Does bernard know tim is robin? ive seen those pride covers and like i read td:r but idek when he reveals hes robin. it was a while ago but still. does bernard know what happened to darla? also why would they reunite two of the trio and not bring back darla. like where is their magic best friend? it could be so interesting to see their relationship change from when they were in high school to young adulthood but no. They had so much potential, but the execution was just oh look hes gay and has boyfriend now. theyre happy, no conflict, no substance, no nothing.
Anyway. Four official relationships. I feel like thats normal for like a 19-21 year old. Hes not that big of a cheater, but he is still messy and weird and has strange homoerotic friendships. anyway. dc bring back zoanne wilkins and darla aquista and i will love you.
#tim drake#robin#tim drake wayne#red robin#also guys if you want someone to blame for drake#blame bart#hes the one who came up with the whole thing and kept telling tim to change his name#ariana dzerchenko#stephanie brown#spoiler#darla aquista#laura fell#warlocks daughter#batgirl#lynx#zoanne wilkins#bernard down#timber#timbern#timcassie#cassandra sandsmark#timsteph#timtam#tam fox#batman#dc comics#red robin 2009#robin 1993#young justice 2019#teen titans 2003
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i find it rather ironic how people are reducing the adolescence mini series to "was jamie a sociopath" and "did katie bully jamie", when the whole point of the show is how the manosphere and the alt-right pipeline is so violent and omnipresent on social medias that a 13 year-old boy who loved to draw and learn about the industrial revolution ends up thinking that women are worthless pieces of meat and that he's "one of the good ones" because he didn't rape katie, he just stabbed her to death.
#its such a scary situation how the red pill movement is shaping the young people of our society#the point is literally flying right over their heads#its so scary because growing up i have seen some of the sweetest nicest guys turn into misogynistic womanizing jerks#who think they're better than everyone based on whats in their pants#for people to actually understand this about adolescence they need to have media literacy skills#which people are lacking these days#anyway#adolescence#netflix adolescence
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Good things from Kon's (1994) solo:
- Serling Roquette
- Roxy Leech (after she got over her crush on him and stopped being catty)
- Krypto (not the one you're thinking of)
- Kon learning responsibility and other character developments
- Funny Kon one-liners
- Occasional YJ crossovers
- Probably a few more things I can't remember (it's been a while)
Bad things from Kon's (1994) solo:
Reblogged misspickman
(panels from robin (1993) #1, #2, #106, and #179)
starting a (very non-exhaustive) compilation of tim being a car guy
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The fact that the villains really like Tim Drake
don't forget ivy, she has a soft spot for that annoying sapling too
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stephanie brown isn’t from crime alley OR the narrows!! she lives in gotham heights with her mother 😭😭
girl is from THE SUBURBS. after karl ranks death she literally says that no one protects the suburbs, and that while batman and robin look out for the city no ones there to protect them. disadvantaged people can grow up in the suburbs too guys. like be so fr.