Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/December 2011

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Akira Ryō or Akira Ryo

The article is currently titled Akira Ryō. It was previously on Akira Ryo and was moved 4 years ago citing WP:MOS-JA as the reason. However, I can't find anything on WP:MOS-JA that specifies we have to use "ō" in the article title. Since, Akira Ryo is commonly used in English-language sources, should the article be moved to Akira Ryo per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)? — MT (talk) 10:02, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Because en WP uses Hepburn romanization. It is mentioned in WP:MJ#Romanization. Most English-language sources do not use correct romanization as macroned letters are not common and they are not easy to type. So it is not necessarily right to say "Ryo" is the correct and common spelling in en. Besides, I'm afraid Akira Ryō is not so notable in general. Oda Mari (talk) 10:34, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing me out to Hepburn romanization, I never knew that. Anyway, what about other person with macroned letter in their surname but their wikipedia articles are not using the macroned letter as the title (such as: Shinichi Ito, Daijiro Kato, Takuma Sato). Also, WP:MJ#Names of modern figures mentions that "Use the form personally or professionally used by the person, if available in the English/Latin alphabet". Doesn't this mean that English alphabets are preferred? — MT (talk) 11:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

It really depends on which is in common usage in reliable sources. If the non-macronned version is more common, then it should be moved back to that version. If the macronned version is more common, or no most common version can be determined, it should remain where it is. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:47, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. It's too tough for me to say which is appropriate. Personally I prefer to use macroned letters as it is the precise way to romanize ja. Native Japanese can easily know it's the surname 伊藤/いとう/Itō when they see Shinichi Ito. But just "Ito", not in a sentence nor with Shinichi, puzzles people. Romanized "Ito" cannot be Japanized いとう. It would be いと and there are two different いと in ja. 意図/intention and 糸/thread. It is interesting to see the article name of those three driver/racers in other languages. Some use macron, some use other letters, and some use Ito, Kato and Sato. Oda Mari (talk) 16:57, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Wow guys this is really confusing for me. Well I agree with Nihonjoe, since it can't be determined, it should remain where it is. I personally prefer macroned letters, since it's more accurate. Similarly, in German-related articles wikipedia uses the letter "ß" instead of "ss" and in Spanish-related articles wikipedia uses diacritics letters. I just hope that in the future there could be a consistent naming convention in Japan-related articles. Thanks for the explanations.

One last thing, I recently moved Shinichi Itoh to Shinichi Ito, based on the commonly used spelling in the media. I hope it's a correct move. — MT (talk) 03:51, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I would also favour the use of the macron unless there is an explicit rejection of it in particular cases. Using Commonname as grounds for removing diacritics is problematic, as it's not clear if the absence of a macron is the result of typesetting obstacles. (It's not just native Japanese speakers who benefit from the extra information, but generally people familiar with Japan topics. Compare the names Yuki and Yūki, for example.) VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 04:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The recommendation of Jimbo Wales is not to use diacritics if most English language sources do not use them. But though MOS:JA recommends Hepburn, the most common form found in English may not even be Hepburn, it could be something else (particularly, IMDB doesn't use Hepburn, for example) and even in Japanese sources where some names/terms are in romaji/romanized, there's a lot of non-Hepburn as well. 70.24.248.23 (talk) 04:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the IMDb recommends use of Hepburn, but as you can see, many people ignore that. Michitaro (talk) 05:36, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

If you use IMDB, I haven't seen Hepburn being used, whatever they recommend. 70.24.248.23 (talk) 08:15, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

The recommendation of MOS:JA is to not use diacritics if most English language reliable sources do not use them. Jimbo's opinion in this matter doesn't matter anymore than that of anyone else here. In this case, though, he's recommending exactly what MOS:JA suggests. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 08:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Just a quick point here, but I don't think you can compare the use of macrons when writing Japanese to the use of diacritics in other languages, because it's fairly rare to see macrons used with romaji in Japanese contexts. For example, I don't remember ever seeing macrons used in Japanese stations, or on the covers of Japanese books or albums, which often use romaji.--Rsm77 (talk) 07:53, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

East Japan Railway Company correctly uses Hepburn romanization. Probably other JRs too. See this and this signboard. Oda Mari (talk) 09:10, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Clearly my memory is playing tricks on me! I still don't remember any macrons used on book or album covers, though you might say my memory has been discredited...--Rsm77 (talk) 09:17, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure I made a vow once never to get involved in a discussion about macrons.--Rsm77 (talk) 09:19, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Using Japanese Wikipedia as a reference / Japanese sources in general

I just want to double-check something here about sources. Sometimes I see articles with banners that say something along the lines of 'This article could be improved with information from the Japanese Wikipedia article', but sometimes it seems that editors don't accept anything that doesn't have a source in English. Is there a firm policy on this matter? If I use information from a Japanese Wikipedia article I have usually in the past just made a note on the talkpage, but is there a better approach?

I was looking specifically at maybe doing something for the Aka Manto article, and here there's the further problem that the Japanese article 赤マント has references from books which I won't be able to check easily. Can I assume good faith? Once again, is Japanese Wikipedia considered a reliable source for English articles? Should I cite? If yes, how should I cite? Cite the article or the references given? OK, I seem to be repeating myself.--Rsm77 (talk) 07:47, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

It's fine to include things from the Japanese Wikipedia, but you should definitely try to find sources for anything you translate over. If you don't, it's possible someone may come along and remove it or question it due to lack of sourcing. If the Japanese article has sources, you can assume they are correct and use the same sources as references for the material here. Do not cite the Japanese Wikipedia article as your source, though, but rather the sources it uses. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:05, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I will bear this in mind when making future edits.--Rsm77 (talk) 21:40, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Collaboration of the Month for December 2011: Pachinko

The article Pachinko badly needs work, especially sourcing. Since it is based on the ja.wiki version of the article, and most of the sources will be in Japanese, it could obviously use some help from someone who knows the language. Basically, the article has a lot of information, but virtually none of it is sourced. It has some suspect "information" in it (I removed most of the blatant WP:NOR and WP:NOT#HOWTO violations), and it is also missing historical information prior to around 1920. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 09:29, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

RfC on Senkaku Islands

There is currently an RfC on Talk:Senkaku Islands, a page that is marked as being of interest to this WikiProject. We would like to invite comments from other users at Talk:Senkaku Islands#Request for comment: Article naming. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:30, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Only 28 un-geocoded Japanese railway station articles left

As of today, there are only 28 Japanese railway station articles left that need geocodes: see User:The Anome/Japan railway stations missing coordinates for the list. Unfortunately, most of these are disused stations, but they are still of historical interest, and worth geocoding. Would any railway enthusiasts with Japanese knowledge be interested in filling in the coordinates for these last few articles? -- The Anome (talk) 23:42, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Added coordinates to four stations. Will keep on searching. Could somebody copy coordinates from ja-wikipedia for the stations which are on the Miki Railway Miki Line? bamse (talk) 08:29, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Done with the Kabe line. Thanks for posting. I actually quite enjoyed looking at pictures of old abandoned tiny stations. Taking a break now. Will take a look at the remaining few stations if nobody else locates them before. bamse (talk) 19:32, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

All of them on that page appear to be done now. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:55, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

What constitutes the revised Hepburn romanization?

User:Unnecessary stuff has found publications by the Library of Congress that do not use the form of Hepburn romanization that User:Mujaki claims is what is in reality the "revised" or "modified" system of Hepburn romanization. Discussion on how we should deal with Hepburn romanization is welcome on its talk page.—Ryulong (竜龙) 09:45, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

RFC on coordinates in highway articles

There is currently a discussion taking place at WT:HWY regarding the potential use of coordinates in highway articles. Your input is welcomed. --Rschen7754 01:35, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Names of first ascenders of Manaslu?

Hello. I’m trying to add first hand accounts of the first ascents of 8,000m peaks to the mountains’ articles. Most sources I’ve seen list Yuko Maki as the leader of the expedition for the first ascent of Manaslu, however this site [1] claims it was Aritsune Maki. Aritsune Maki also wrote this book. Could Yuko Maki and Aritsune Maki be the same person?
Similarly, this site [2] lists Takayoshi Yoda as the cameraman of the expedition, while the author of the photo essay here of the first ascent is Yoshinori Yoda. Are they the same person?--Wikimedes (talk) 05:49, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it looks like it is the same person. The kanji of his given name 有恒 could be read "Yūkō" or "Aritsune" - it's the difference between the on'yomi (Chinese reading) and the kun'yomi (Japanese reading) - see Kanji#Readings for details. If most sources use Yūkō, then that is probably the one we should use. His article at the Japanese Wikipedia says that both are used, but it lists Yūkō first. Hope this helps. — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 06:42, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

As for Yoda, Yoshinori seems to be an error. Take a good look at the cover of the book. It says Takayoshi. Oda Mari (talk) 15:01, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

FYI, the National Diet Library treats Aritsune as the official reading: see here. Michitaro (talk) 16:08, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

But the Sendai city treats Yūkō as the official reading. Maki was born and raised in Sendai and he is an honorary citizen there. See [3]. Oda Mari (talk) 17:02, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

As we all know, different name readings can be used by different groups. Having worked in a library, I tend to use what the Library of Congress or NDL authority file says, since it is their job to get the name right (but in rare cases sometimes even those can be mistaken). By the way, the US Library of Congress Authority File--which dictates using Aritsune--says they confirmed the reading using the colophon of two of Maki's own books. When the author page says it is Aritsune, libraries tend to go with that. Michitaro (talk) 19:04, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, that clears everything up. I added a mention in the article that Yuko Maki is also known as Aritsune Maki and added the books to a further reading section.--Wikimedes (talk) 03:40, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Seibun

Please have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Seibun This contentious user is making unilateral moves without discussion, having been admonished several times now about doing so. There is no hyphen in Japanese, it is not natural to put it in transliteration. Should I take this higher, what say you all?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I follow the ALA-LC Romanization Table, which actually only allows hyphens in a few cases (mostly having to do with adding a prefix or suffix to a proper noun, such as in Nihon-teki). So jidaigeki should be without hyphen (even though I recognize there are some texts that use one). Seibun seems to argue that dictionaries do it his/her way, but Kenkyusha (the standard) definitely does not (it uses hyphens not because that is the rule in romanization, but in order to "clarify the constitution (kōsei) of the word"). Michitaro (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with hyphens. They separate parts of unusual compound words or connect particles to the affiliated noun. Makes romaji easier to read; better than separating all particles, or worse, when several words and particles are written as one long word. I must not be the only one, take "Ukiyo-e", for example. On the other hand, changing the title of an article should be discussed beforehand, on the article's talk page. Boneyard90 (talk) 19:24, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Operation Locker

Operation Locker, which aims to provide comprehensive coverage of all ships lost during the period 1939-45 has been launched. Assistance from members of this WikiProject in achieving that aim is welcome. Please discuss this project at the relevant talk page. Mjroots (talk) 15:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)