Arbitration Committee proceedings

Request name	Motions	Initiated	Votes
Covert canvassing and proxying in the Israel-Arab conflict topic area		6 November 2024	0/6/0

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Request to amend prior case: Franco-Mongol alliance

Initiated by Per Honor et Gloria ✍ at 04:01, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/PHG

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Motion 1 "PHG's topic ban is renewed" [1]

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Per Honor et Gloria (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
Srnec (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Angusmclellan (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Elonka (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Amendment 1

[2]
Lifting of editorial restrictions

Statement by Per Honor et Gloria

Continued contributions

Since February 2008, when my editorial restrictions started (on the Mongols and the Indo-Greeks...) I have been contributing as many as 800 new articles on a variety of subjects (see Created articles), through about 20,000 additional edits, for a total of 50,000 edits to date, without major issues. I have received 6 Barnstars and Awards in the meantime (see here). I have also completed about 100 DYKs in the same period (see Talk:Per Honor et Gloria for a sampling).

Existence of a Franco-Mongol alliance

Since all started in 2007 with a dispute about the way the Franco-Mongol alliance is described in the historical literature, I have reviewed about 70 authors, and found that many authors, probably most, acutally do write about the actual occurence of an alliance, which was based on written epistolary agreements, with military cooperation, lasting years at a time, although authors generally differ about its precise nature and timing. I found however that it is inexact to describe it generally as "only attempts at an alliance". For a precise analysis of the sources wih online references, see Historians on the Franco-Mongol alliance.

I believe a balanced presentation of the variety of views on the subject would be best. Clearly, it cannot be said that there was a full-scale, overarching alliance with a major, continuous military commitments. It was much more however than just "failed attempts at an alliance". What occured was something in between, a series of epistolary and diplomatic agreements resulting in a fleeting Franco-Mongol alliance, leading to attempts at large military combinations, but ending with rather small scale, ineffective, military operations. I would have no issue with the usage of qualifiers such as "A fleeting Franco-Mongol alliance", as often used in the literature, and am open to discussions about how to qualify it. Overall, I wish to be cleared of the accusations that I would have made up the existence of an alliance between the Franks and the Mongols: "alliance" is indeed the way it is described by most historians, the question is more the degree and the limited results of this alliance (Historians on the Franco-Mongol alliance).

Mongol occupation of Jerusalem

A major point of contention was also whether the Mongols occupied or not Jerusalem in 1299-1300. It was claimed that this did not happen, that I had made it up, that it was a hoax etc... (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mongol conquests and Jerusalem: I was copiously attacked for describing this event!!). I again researched the sources, and it is clear that this event indeed happened and that the historical concensus confirms it. See sandbox article with online sources for the details: Mongol occupation of Jerusalem. In the meantime, an independent contributor of high standing User:Srnec has also researched the subject, and explained that basically all historians agree that Jerusalem was occupied by the Mongols in 1299-1300, explaining that "the modern, reliable sources say unequivocally that the Mongols were in Jerusalem": see Mongol conquest of Jerusalem. To quote Srnec's own words, I am requesting that we stop "inventing a dispute where there isn't one" [3]. For my sake, and for the sake of historical truth on Wikipedia, I wish to be cleared of the accusations that I would have made up the story of the Mongols occupying Jerusalem in 1299-1300.

Sources

Since it was claimed I misrepresented sources to describe the above subjects, I made a detailed analysis and response to a quite faulty and partial "Report on the use of sources" that was apparently used as a basis for my restrictions: see Response to report on the use of sources. I believe that my usage of sources, although it may not be perfect, is generally correct. It is always my intention at least to be as exact as possible.

Hopefully things are being clarified with time. I am again bringing up this point because I believe it is a disservice to Wikipedia and to history fans in general to hide or dismiss these historical events, and attack those who describe them. I am requesting that my reputation be cleared, and that my normal editorial status be returned. Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 04:01, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved Georgewilliamherbert

PHG - you are addressing issues of historical research and completely bypassing findings regarding your behavior, which is what actually led to the topic ban being renewed six months ago.

What do you believe is different regarding your behavior and attitude compared to six months ago? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:23, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Amendment 2

Link to principle, finding of fact, or remedy to which this amendment is requested
Details of desired modification

Statement by your username (2)

{Statement by editor filing request for amendment. Contained herein should be an explanation and evidence detailing why the amendment is necessary.}

Statement by other editor (2)

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

Waiting for any further statements, but I am not currently inclined to lift and or/loosen the sanctions. SirFozzie (talk) 11:27, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see no reason, a priori, to believe that the behavioral problems that have let to the ban being renewed have been addressed. PHG, do you have something to say on that matter (as opposed to the content issues)? — Coren ^(talk) 20:49, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request to amend prior case: EEML (2)

Initiated by _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} at 22:57, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Remedy 3

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Piotrus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

N/A

Amendment 1

Piotrus topic banned
This is a request to amend EEML Remedy 3 to end the topic ban that applies to Piotrus and allow him to edit articles related to Eastern Europe.

Statement by Piotrus

The amendment proposed last June concerning my person was described as "premature" and the Committee members suggested it should be revisited in one to three months time. As three months have passed, I would like to ask the Committee to consider it now (the topic ban is now in its mid-length, with six months passed, and six months to go).

I would like to repeat what I said three months ago (update: which I could summarize as "I apologize for becoming radicalized and violating WP:CANVASS and I promise not to repeat those mistakes") and to confirm that three months later I have still not been involved in any controversy or dispute resolution and that I am still actively contributing to English Wikipedia and other WMF projects. Notably, there have been not a single complain about my WikiProject Poland related activity, allowed by the amendment from May. I would like to resume carrying out clean up work on articles myself (instead of having to report all issues, even obvious vandalism, and burdening other editors with carrying out the tasks I can do myself). Further, I would like to resume regular new content creation (see how much content I created before and after the topic ban). I was the author of many uncontroversial Poland-related Featured Articles; in fact I have had a draft of a now-defeatured Poland-related article ready for transfer to en wiki for several months now (the article even passed a mock GA review a while ago)... is the project really benefiting from me not being able to fix this article and others...?

I would like to stress that content I created was never an issue of concern, the EEML case was about inappropriate canvassing. If the Committee has any lingering doubts, I can promise to voluntarily abstain from casting votes in Eastern European related discussions (moves, deletions, etc.) for the remainder of the topic ban original duration.

To the expected peanut gallery, I have this to say: I am here to build an encyclopedia, and I invite you to join me in good faith in this collaborative effort. To the "Piotrus is EVIL" chorus, I have this to add: I forgive you (you should try it, it does wonders for one's wikistress). To those who have supported me in the past and will do so in the future, I want to say thank you. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:57, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Ghirla

"The absence of Piotrus from the Eastern Europian minefield made it a much safer and pleasant place than it used to be". Really? Given this, the numerous AE threads and even the discussions here, including some recent Arbitrator comments below, sadly, I am not seeing this. The dramu continues, without the dreaded EEML members. I wonder why... weren't we the root of all evil after all? :>

Anyway, here's a piece of ancient history: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus-Ghirla and User:Durova/Mediation. I stood by and still stand by your request and my promise - I have never commented on you since that mediation. It saddens me to see that you are not returning this favor, even through you made a clear promise: "I promise not to mention his [Piotrus] name in similar circumstances" (the similar circumstances being "to stop discussing [the other editor] on public noticeboards".

I was disappointed when you withdrew from that mediation, but till now, we have not interacted, and I considered our ancient disagreements a thing of the past, and the hatchet well and deep buried. I appreciate your uncontroversial content contribution to the EE topic, and your lack of involvement in the surrounding dramu; till your present comment on my person I thought you were the model reformed, deradicalized editor we could all learn from (create content, avoid conflict and dramu). I'd really appreciate it if you could reconsider your involvement, and rebury the hatchet. Thank you, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Offliner

You ask for some valid statements/links, and I am happy to provide them.

"a real admission of all transgressions (not just a single one like "EEML case was about inappropriate canvassing", which is even in the passive voice) & a real apology": if you'd prefer an active voice statement, here you go: "I was involved in violations of WP:CANVASS during the EEML period, for which I apologize." Please also see here;
"a real promise that nothing similar to the transgressions will recur": repeating from three months ago: "I plan on ensuring that errors of the past will not repeat themselves in the future";
"perhaps proposing measures that will discourage relapse". In addition to the links above, please see here, here and here. Sadly, those proposals were not met with much discussion, amid calls for blood and such. I wonder, were this not the case, would the EE arena today be still as battleground-ish as it is now? Blocks and bans are simple, but not that effective, as experience shows. What is needed is a desire for participants to bury the hatchet and talk things over. Nothing less will fix the situation, I am afraid. Anyway, this is not the best forum for discussion, but I invite you to read my thoughts on this issue here and comment on the talk page.

In exchange, could you point me out to the apology you have made for the events that led to your block on January 15, a promise not to repeat the actions that led to it and any proposals to discourage relapse you have made? Thanks, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:52, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to "4+1+40 Offenses": I did and do acknowledge, apologize and promise never to repeat all items that the arbitrators listed in the findings of the case (what you refer to as "4 Offenses", which includes canvassing; I refer to the other items as "radicalization" and I mentioned that in my recognition&apology&promise above). I have never seen this bizarre "40 Offenses" list; it was certainly never a part of any proposed (or passed) finding. It looks to me like your own version of the official findings, in many instances differing substantively from them (and as such not something relevant to this amendment). In fact, some of your claims directly contradict the Committee findings (to start with your first claim - I will not discuss others for reasons of space and relevance - is that I was the list founder and organizer - the Committee found otherwise). Let me remind you that that this is not the place to re-litigate the case by bringing concerns from that time that were not taken up by the Committee, but in any case I do agree that the behaviors you describe should be avoided (by me and others). Once again, I did and do apologize for the relevant ("4") offenses and plan never to repeat them again. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:32, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Skäpperöd

This is ridiculous, or bad faithed, or both... sigh. Regarding the note to Jusdafax, I found some anon vandalism, and I reported it to an admin that already reverted part of it. Months ago Coren has already confirmed I can report vandalism to administrators; the topic ban prevents me from undoing it myself but certainly does not mean that I should keep mum when I see it (oh, and during the period I was banned, I emailed info on vandalism I spotted to several arbitrators regularly, too). Sigh. This "evidence" gets even more ridiculous. Forced labor in Germany during World War II to which I made just a single mostly automated c/e edit concerns multiple nationalities, not to mention Germany is not in Eastern Europe the last time I checked; see also article's talk page and categories which do not contain any EE projects nor categories, just German ones. The only edit to Second Northern War I made was adding an uncontroversial talk MILHIST assessment template; in any case, just like the previous article, this article deals only marginally with Poland, probably as much as generic World War II article (for example); further the MILHIST template when assessed by another editor did not merit inclusion of a Poland-taskforce.

In fact, to make Skäpperöd's job easier, let me report myself for many similar edits. In the past few weeks I have made edits to pages like Wikimania (2010 edition of which was held in Poland), Revolution (I am sure some occurred in Poland), Pax Mongolica (Mongols invaded Poland at one time, you know), and multiple articles on generic concepts from the fields of science and literature, which are variously connected to Poland (galaxy for example contains the planet Earth which contains Poland, or space opera, which is a genre that Polish writers write in and some are probably mentioned on that page, too). I have also added assessment templates to scores of articles, and while I tried avoiding those obviously connected with Eastern Europe, I might have missed the fact that some of them mention something EE-related in the main body (which I usually don't read). I have also use AutoEd on the main body of many articles; again, it is likely that some of them may mention something EE-related (hmmm, come to think to it, I was working on the world-systems article, and IIRC somewhere in it is an example that mentions Poland in one sentence... I could go on :>

More seriously, I strongly believe I have upheld the topic ban quite well, and I think Skäpperöd's evidence proves it - in fact, thanks for bringing it up, I couldn't make a better argument myself :)

As I said above, I strongly believe that the EE area is not going to improve without editors following WP:FORGIVE. I am afraid, however, that if some editors will keep bad faith attacks on others, aiming to forum shop blocks or bans on anything that can be stretched and called "evidence", the battleground atmosphere will persist, and the Committee may need to step in again :( Perhaps some kind of restriction on bringing spurious evidence and requests is in order? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:34, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kotniski

Again, I support Piotrus's request. There are no and never have been any serious complaints about Piotrus's actions as an editor of articles; and so, considering what a productive editor he is capable of being, any continued restrictions on this editing serve only to harm the encyclopedia.--Kotniski (talk) 08:55, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Biophys

As someone who knows Piotrus, I can tell: he is very much capable of learning and acting rationally. He is also highly dedicated to the project and cares a lot about his reputation, which is now in a poor condition. Therefore, if anyone is going to behave well in EE area, that is Piotrus.Biophys (talk) 15:13, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Heimstern. Piotrus passed the test. If you are not sure, give him another one: allow editing in the area for a few months, with a subsequent review of his work by an uninvolved administrator who had no prior interactions with Piotrus (for example, Jeepday). Biophys (talk) 15:24, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ghirla

The absence of Piotrus from the Eastern Europian minefield made it a much safer and pleasant place than it used to be, prompting even Ghirla to resume editing activity, albeit on a limited scale. What a hell of an atmosphere it used to be when Piotrus and Co conspired behind the curtain how to oust from the project the editors like Ghirla, with more than 165,000 edits under his belt. It sends shivers down his spine even now. Poor Irpen, where he is now. Let's pardon the participants of the infamous mailing list, and you will have more drama, witch-hunts and persecution, leaving the Russia-related topics what they had been for quite some time: barren of authors. --Ghirla^-трёп- 16:51, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The comments below remind me that I was declared a "hate/propaganda monger" (June 23) on what they call the "Russian front" or "taking the fight to the enemy" (June 21). I don't think I've ever commented on the case; only a prospect of full impunity for everyone involved in the long-term pattern of personal attacks and wikistalking prompts me to comment here. Those guys have succeeded in ousting every reasonably productive contributor from Russia-related topics. Just think about it. P.S. Mr Vecrumba is an EEML member and seems to be actively violating his topic ban. --Ghirla^-трёп- 07:22, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Malik Shabazz

As I did three months ago, I once again support Piotrus' proposed amendment. I agree with other editors who have mentioned how prolific a contributor Piotrus is. I believe he has learned from the EEML debacle and will work toward the improvement of the project.

Currently, Piotrus is allowed to comment on Poland-related matters at WT:POLAND. Every week, he reviews new articles and posts notes about them (e.g., which ones should be nominated for DYK, whether articles should be nominated for speedy deletion, etc.). Then I evaluate Piotrus' suggestions and act upon them as I see fit, a task in which we are sometimes assisted by other editors. I think it would be easier for all concerned if Piotrus were able to perform this Wiki-gnoming directly, rather than by proxy.

In summary, I think Piotrus is an asset to the project and his inability to edit articles in the area of his expertise is a detriment to all of us. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:00, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Question for SirFozzie

Could you elaborate on your comment a little, please? It isn't clear how your comments with respect to Skäpperöd's proposed amendment relate to the this proposed amendment. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 22:03, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Offliner

I cannot speak for what others or even Arbcom will want to see but this would be what I'd personally hope for. If any of this has happened before, it will have escaped my attention and some diffs will do to rectify me.

a real admission of all transgressions (not just a single one like "EEML case was about inappropriate canvassing", which is even in the passive voice)
a real apology
a real promise that nothing similar to the transgressions will recur
perhaps proposing measures that will discourage relapse. Offliner (talk) 21:25, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The 4 Offences known from the official findings of facts

Canvassing
Piotrus was aware that usage of the list was inappropriate, and made efforts to keep its nature and existence secret from Wikipedia editors.
Piotrus has used his administrative tools in disputes he and other members of the list were involved in in order to affect disputes and in furtherance of their point of view.
Piotrus has participated in a variety of disruptive activities coordinated on the mailing list, including 'tag team' edit-warring and encouraging and advising list members to circumvent Wikipedia policies.

The 1 Offence Piotrus has acknowledged and promised to avoid

Violations of Canvassing

- Canvassing is most easy to game for Piotrus. In this recent on-wiki message (everyone knows that Piotrus usually prefers off-wiki contacts), Piotrus refers someone to his amendment, reminds that he supported him last time and implies support for an adminship application. He just obfuscates the meaning by using a pretext that he was interested in why that person had forgiven him unlike the others. Piotrus didn't write a message to those who had opposed his amendment last time, although it would make much more sense to ask them for forgiveness and ask why they had opposed him.

Statement by nihil novi

Not having been a participant in the East European Mailing List, I may not have a full understanding of some of its activities, which I gather were involved in sanctions now under review. I personally do not recall ever having been contacted in an inappropriate way by Piotr Konieczny. I have seen him as a most competent, dedicated and productive contributor to Wikipedia on a broad range of topics, including the history of Poland and Europe. His contributions to the overarching project have been of inestimable value, both in the production of content and in the coordination of an appreciable portion of the efforts of other productive authors. Wikipedia can, I think, ill afford to exclude such a capable individual from full participation in the community's efforts to build a comprehensive, honest, reliable online encyclopedia. Nihil novi (talk) 06:07, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jacurek

Piotrus's contribution to the Wikipedia especially Project Poland [4] is outstanding. His dedication and knowledge are way above the average contributor. Keeping him banned from the topic area of Eastern Europe any longer only hurts the project itself. Ridiculous and bad faith comments from well known opponents of Piotrus such as this one for example[5] of user Skäpperöd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) are sad examples of aggressive block shopping that should be punished.--Jacurek (talk) 18:45, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jniech

I consider myself a Polish editor (but British with a Polish father) hence I declare any bias.

First I find it difficult to really understand the view “that Piotrus and Co conspired behind the curtain how to oust from the project”. It easy enough to set-up a Wikipedia account and use a different IP address. If editing is easier then it is because those involved have accepted their punishment.

Further I understand that based on the decision, that Piotrus was found guilty.

I support this proposal that Piotrus be allowed to edit articles related to Eastern Europe. Having said that if it is rejected I would hope he would be allowed to write new articles and allowed to interact on talk pages (e.g. add quality, importance and take part in debates). Jniech (talk) 20:59, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Lysy

I support the request, for the same reason as before. As for my bias, yes, I am Polish and I admit that I am interested in the quality of Poland-related articles as well as unrelated articles. While Polish, I remained unaware of the illegal mailing list existence, so the conspiracy might have not been that wide and powerful, after all. This said I'm still surprised that mailing lists are considered illegal on wikipedia. Anyway, in my opinion the topic ban is irrelevant to the offence, serves no useful purpose and in fact is only destructive for wikipedia. --Lysy^talk 17:38, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Artem Karimov

As an outsider, I would like to voice my opinion as well. It appears to me that Piotrus' behaviour has got no better since the EEML case. Such an obfuscated payoff pointed out by Offliner made me completely convinced that lifting the block is NOTNOW. If Piotrus' behavioural pattern does not change in the future, then, quite possibly, NOTEVER. Retracting my previous statement. There is always enough rope anyway. And Piotrus sounds sincere so probably we could give him a chance to redeem himself. Therefore support. Artem Karimov (talk | edits) 16:52, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by Skäpperöd

Looking at Piotrus' talk page, one finds a recent note of Jusdafax, in which he confirmed making this EE edit on "request" by Piotrus (otherwise not knowing about the issue, see edit summary). What makes this even more worrying is that the "request" was apparently made off-wiki. Piotrus also violated his topic ban last month when he came to this article after his associate Molobo had edited there. I further remember Piotrus' interest an article I wrote, Second Northern War, which also is within the scope of his topic ban. The article was up for GAC review when Piotrus and encouraged another user to make critical comments during the review [6] and tagged its talk page.

In the request below I provided evidence that Radeksz is back at his old targets after the return from his topic ban, he even got blocked for his post-topic ban disruption, and we are just talking about this summer. Molobo's post-block behaviour is also in part mentioned in that request. Jacurek evaded his topic ban by sockpuppetry. The group's associate Loosmark was recently EE topic banned. Biophys was subject to another Arbcom case after the EEML. The remedies of the EEML arbcom should have quieted the EE are for about a year, but they have not succeeded in doing so.

Until Piotrus2, Arbcom had decided in dubio pro Piotro, then gained access to the EEML archive, and responded with moderate remedies. This approach has failed. It is unlikely that Arbcom will every now and then be provided with a random archive of Piotrus' group's off-wiki collaboration, nor will Radeksz copy his inbox to mainspace again as he did while proxying for Molobo. That doesn't mean that it has stopped.

I suggest that Piotrus' group is subject to a permanent topic ban from EE articles concerning shared histories, naming disputes, or shared/disputed nationality issues.

Statement by DonaldDuck

For Piotrus, topic ban was deserved remedy. And this remedy worked. After Piotrus was topic banned, Eastern European topic area became much safer place. Editors can work without fear of being targeted by Piotrus and his group. EEML remedy should not be amended now. DonaldDuck (talk) 11:47, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Heim talketh

Apparently I'm now going to join the scorned "Piotrus is evil" crowd. So be it.

I'm quite concerned that Piotrus still seems to show no sign of remorse or even much concern about what he did. Indeed, his comment seems to almost be telling us that we need to absolve him. Forgiveness is not something to be demanded, it is to be humbly requested, and I'm not seeing this. Of course, this shouldn't be about personal disputes (and I don't believe I ever have disputed with Piotrus, myself), but the approach he's taking leaves me really skeptical that he's really learnt anything. He holds up his spotless record since his return from his siteban. Well, yeah, that's because he's been mandatorily away from the area where the problems happened. I can't see that this record proves much. (True, this can be said in the case of any topic ban.) I acknowledge that he's been a hard working contributor at Wikipedia for a long time, but the abuse he perpetrated with EEML can't be mitigated solely by that, and the committee has to weigh if he's really likely to be a net positive here.

If the committee decides to lift, even in part, this topic ban, which I really think is probably not in Wikipedia's best interest, I strongly urge an oversight mechanism to be in place so that any relapse into previous behaviour will result in the reinstatement of the sanctions. Eastern Europe articles are already the biggest, most festering national/ethnic-related stinkhole on Wikipedia, despite the joys of Israel/Palestine and Ireland/the British Isles. I ask the arbitration committee to do whatever it can to be sure it festers and stinks less. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 12:07, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clerical note: Piotrus has raised concerns about statement that suggests I may have missed things. I intend to look later and make amendments as necessary. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 04:41, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Specifically for Newyorkbrad

Concerning your suggestion, I'm going to have to be one of those people who raises questions about line-drawing. In this volatile area, ethnic disputes pop up in unexpected areas. For example, Nicolaus Copernicus would seem like it ought to be just another science article, but no, it's also a been a point of ethnic disputes over the scientist's nationality. I have no real ideas about how the lines would be drawn, and I honestly question whether this idea is feasible. Completely understand the want to do this, but is it realistic? Heimstern Läufer (talk) 12:16, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

See below for my response and thoughts in this area. SirFozzie (talk) 22:59, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Further: I reiterate what I think down below, that the fact that people in this area cannot or will not get along with each other bodes very ill for the consequences.. as for the narrowing, I agree with Brad, and will at least be willing to narrow the topic ban, with the caveat that it's going to be very quickly reapplied if there are future issues. SirFozzie (talk) 04:16, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The current topic-ban provides that Piotrus is currently "topic banned from articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed." I do not think that in view of the entire situation and history, a consensus to lift the topic-ban in its entirety is likely to emerge. However, consistent with what I have suggested on other occasions, I am considering a motion to narrow the topic ban to apply only to "articles concerning nationalist or ethnic disputes within Eastern Europe" and related pages, as opposed to all articles about Eastern Europe. This would allow Piotrus to edit many articles in his areas of interest without, hopefully, stoking disputes about the most contentious ones. I understand that there may be concerns about line-drawing, but I think they are solvable. Comments on this possibility would be appreciated; please submit them by Saturday so that, for once, we can potentially have a timetable for resolving this request. Newyorkbrad (talk) 09:37, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Recused. Shell ^babelfish 09:20, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree in principle with a narrowing of the topic ban, but that would be accompanied with a stern warning that trying to toe the line and argue about where it lies is the swiftest way to have it return. I'll propose an amendment in a few day unless one of my colleagues does so first in order to give more time for other arbs to chime in (we have had, regrettably but predictably, our attention mostly taken by an ongoing case rather than this page). — Coren ^(talk) 20:47, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request to amend prior case: EEML

Initiated by Skäpperöd (talk) at 09:07, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected: Eastern European mailing list arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Remedy 10: Radeksz (talk · contribs) is topic banned from articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed, for one year. This topic ban is consecutive with any editing ban. Rescinded by motion on 21 June 2010.

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Skäpperöd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
Radeksz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

[7]

Amendment 1

Link to principle, finding of fact, or remedy to which this amendment is requested: Wikipedia:EEML#Radeksz topic banned
Details of desired modification: Motion 3 is rescinded, the original topic ban is reinstated and/or extended.

Statement by Skäpperöd

In his request to have his topic ban lifted 1, Radeksz said that he planned to edit non-controversially, primarily in areas of Polish economics, Poland-related unreferenced BLPs and current events. He listed several articles he planned to work on (all but one are still redlinks), and said: "I don't anticipate that any of them should prove controversial - of course, if any disputes arise in the future, I will be careful to observe high standards of conduct"[8]. I advised against lifting the ban [9].

Some two months have passed. The evidence provided below confirms that Radeksz has not kept the promises made and instead returned to aggressive editing and battleground behaviour, including

incivility
move warring and disregard for BRD
attacking his former targets, including disruption of DYK noms

...to the point where he got blocked.

Example 1 - Johann Dzierzon

On 25 April, Mamalala, a sockpuppet of topic-ban evading EEML-member Jacurek complained about the article's name [10]. Discussion died down on the same day, but two months later, Radeksz re-activated the section [11], a discussion emerged that was joined by EEML-member Molobo aka Mymoloboaccount [12] and resulted in an unsuccessful RM. During the RM,

Radeksz attacked former EEML-target Varsovian [13] and former EEML-target Dr. Dan [14], and put their comments into a "bickering section" [15] (all 24 July). Dan responded calmly [16] only to be again mocked by Radeksz [17] until another editor intervened [18].
I joined the discussion on 31 July [19]. Radeksz called me "stubborn", my request to redact that [20] was to no avail.
When I moved a bunch of Communist era sources, added to the article by Molobo, to the talk page for discussion on 3 August (section link), Radeksz attacked me again: "shenanigans", "against-policy-removal of sourced material", "disruptive forum shopping by Skapperod, combined with insinuations that amount to personal attacks", "based on his IDONTLIKEIT", "bully" etc. The "against-policy removal of sourced material" was actually my strict adherence to WP:BRD - move controversial material to talk for discussion. The "disruptive forum shopping" allegation relates to this RS/N thread I started in May 2009.

Example 2 - Jewish Community of Danzig

Jewish Community of Danzig was created by former EEML target HerkusMonte on 3 August, and subsequently nominated for DYK [21]. As shown by the diff, the article was ticked, then the tick was retracted due to a "move war", and the discussion was taken over by Radeksz and Molobo until Rlevse put an end to it.

Radeksz moved the article [22] (no e/s).
HerkusMonte moved the article back [23] (e/s: "rv undiscussed move")
by then at the latest, Radeksz should have started a RM or otherwise seek consensus. Instead, he moved the article again [24] (no e/s)
after discussion, the article was moved back by another user [25]

Example 3 - Johannes von Baysen

The article Johannes von Baysen was stable at this title since its creation four years ago.

Radeksz moved it on 16 August [26]
I moved it back on 17 August at 9:00 [27] , providing the rationale in the e/s
by then at the latest, Radeksz should have started a RM or otherwise seek consensus. Instead, he again moved it to his preferred title on 9:40 [28]

Despite numerous pleas to move it back and start an RM, Radeksz insisted on his title. After five days of discussion, I moved the article back according to consensus [29].

Example 4 - Treaties of Bautzen and Merseburg

On 7 September, I created the article Treaties of Bautzen and Merseburg about the treaties of Merseburg (1002, 1013 and 1033) and Bautzen (1018 and 1031) [30], which I had finished and nominated for DYK in this version of 8 September. Note that every single sentence has a quality source. Radeksz tagged the article as violating NPOV and SYNTH and with a split-tag and rewrote the lead [31], before he turned the article into a dab page [32] and copied the part about Bautzen (1029) and Merseburg (1033) to Treaty of Merseburg [33], and merged the part about Merseburg (1002 and 1013) and Bautzen (1018) with about 50 consecutive edits into a re-created unsourced stub at Peace of Bautzen which I previously redirected [34].

I undid the removal of all of the content from Treaties of Bautzen and Merseburg [35], e/s: "rv bold split and move of the article, no discussion"
By then at the latest, Radeksz should have started to seek consensus. Instead, he reverted within minutes [36], e/s: "there was no discussion when Peace of Bautzen was "deleted" either" - referring to the unsourced stub, tagged since 2009, that I redirected (not "deleted") [37].
I restored the article [38], provided my rationale on talk and started an RfC on whether the article should be split.
I then redirected Peace of Bautzen and Treaty of Merseburg to the mother article from which Radeksz had created them, linking the RfC in the edit summaries [39] [40].
Radeksz reverted [41] [42] in disregard of the RfC, and creating two content forks.

Regardless of the outcome of the RfC, Radeksz proved to be unable to follow BRD and instead uses the revert button. He also torpedoed the DYK nomination by enormeously enlarging the article's entry with his views [43], despite me having linked the RfC there prominently already. Just one week before, something similar happened to a previous DYK nom of mine, which was torpedoed by Molobo [44] / (talk).

Radeksz then created a third, unsourced content fork, where he again reverted me in disregard of BRD and called me “disruptive” for redirecting it pointing to the ongoing RfC [45]

All this could have been avoided if Radeksz had just placed a split proposal on the talk page, instead of making an article that is up for DYK vanish overnight. When the split was undone and the RfC started on the merits of a split, he should have waited for its outcome instead of creating content forks by reverting. He further failed to attribute the material he moved to the content forks.

Other examples

On a sysop's talk page, Radeksz made an unfounded block request against Varsovian, and was told that he himself would get blocked if he continued that way [46]
This outburst/PA in defense of EEML-member Biophys (warning [47])
Radeksz tried to get EEML target Dr. Dan sanctioned, just 5 days after his topic ban was lifted [48]
Radeksz attacks a sysop for sanctioning his associate Loosmark [49]
With a revert [50], Radeksz joins a Czech/German naming dispute [51]
Radeksz attacks a Lithuanian editor as nationalist [52] and during a naming dispute commets on the Lithuanian government as if it were an apartheid regime [53]
With an unsuccessful 3RR report [54] and an attack against Dr. Dan [55], Radeksz joins a naming dispute where he, in contrast to Loosmark, was not involved before [56] [57]
Radeksz on his user page attacks Varsovian with this "parody" [58] on this 7 March comment of Varsovian [59].
Radeksz joined a discussion unrelated to him on my talk page with a comment making me look like Gollum [60]
Radeksz also followed me to an SPI I opened [61]
Radeksz accused me of doing OR [62] [63] [64], and linked that last post as a “compliment” on my talk [65].
On 10 August, Radeksz violated his interaction ban with EEML target Russavia with an unfounded AE request and was blocked accordingly [66]

Response to Radeksz

Re "warning"

Radeksz's opening comment: "Skapperod, regularly, when he finds himself in a content dispute with others resorts to attempts to have those who disagree with him banned rather than working on resolving the dispute. He has been warned about using AE before to that effect (give me a sec to dig out the diff)."

The warning I got resulted from this AE report I filed against Radeksz on 11 July 2009. This report resulted from the Kołobrzeg dispute, which was revealed as a concerted attack on me by Radeksz and others during the EEML arbitration. Radeksz's disruption in that particlular case has even been presented in his EEML FoFs as an example for Radeksz's "abuse of dispute resolution processes ([20090606-1316] [diffs])" [67].

But Sandstein could not know that when he closed that AE and issued me the warning. EEML member Radeksz on the other hand knew it all the time, naturally, as he participated in planning and exercising the attack on me. It is absolutely ridiculous that Radeksz is opening his defense by presenting that warning as if it really was an indication of an unfounded request. And even repeats that below!

Re "content dispute" and "block shopping"

No. The long list of diffs above, all from the last two months, are not about content disputes, but about the handling of those, and other behavioural evidence. And I will not go into re-opening any discussion here that belongs to article talk pages.

Throwing in the MAGIC_WORD "content dispute" may usually work to scare sysops away, but I hope that the arbs are above that and analyze the behavioural evidence I provided. The sentence "Skapperod, regularly, when he finds himself in a content dispute with others resorts to attempts to have those who disagree with him banned" and the repeated "block shopping" allegation are the core of Radeksz's defense.

It is of course unsubstantiated by evidence, as it is just not true.

Re allegations of "ownership" and actions against consensus

Radeksz says below that these two edits [68] [69] of mine violate WP:OWN. In fact, per WP:Copying within Wikipedia, one is required to do so. The dummy edits were a consequence of Radeksz's unattributed copy/paste-split and the reverts he made after the split was undone and the RfC at the original article started [70] [71], violating WP:BRD and WP:Copying within Wikipedia#Content forking: "The acceptable solution to disagreement on the development of an article is to seek consensus through dispute resolution." This is exactly what I have done when I started the RfC. Radeksz could not possibly have missed the ongoing RfC since it was linked in the edit summaries of the edits he reverted [72] [73], but he nevertheless chose reverting over DR.

Radeksz also cherry-picked quotes to suggests that I had acted against consensus. E.g. for the Baysen dispute, he picked only part of a quote of a user who provided a 3O, the whole 3O thread is here and others commented, too. Another example is the ongoing Bautzen and Merseburg RfC, where he provided only one user's oppinion here. Completely irrelevant, the diffs deal with Radeksz's disruption that already happened, no matter how the RfC goes.

Re - MalikShabazz/mediation

I don't know how neutral MalikShabazz, who is introduced as "uninvolved" by Radeksz, is with respect to Radeksz and me, given their EEML-related run-in with me [74] [75] and their extensive clerking of Piotrus' topic-ban-inhibited tasks at the PLNB.

A mediation will not address Radeksz's immediate return to battleground behaviour on multiple articles and his attacks against multiple users, and Radeksz's attempt to jump that train is nothing but distraction. He wants to bury this as a content dispute, see above.

Re "Last Chances Saloon"

Radeksz had his first 'last' chance when a limited topic ban was applied to him after the EEML case instead of a harsh sanction. He had another last chance when the topic ban was lifted, first in part, then altogether. He had another last chance when he was only sanctioned with a short-time block after returning to disruptive behavior afterwards. Radeksz is not a young boy, he knows what he is doing and should finally face consequences instead of getting another last chance.

That Radeksz and Jacurek, during this request, are frivolous enough to attack me with that "Skäpperöd-received-a-warning-for unfounded-requests"-story illustrates that point. I outlined above (see Re "warning") how this "warning" was the result of a coordinated EEML attack against me, involving Radeksz, which had been revealed during the EEML case. The admin who judged my request to be "unfounded" could not know about the attack by the time he issued me the warning, but Radeksz and Jacurek naturally knew and know very well, and Arbcom does now know, too, from the EEML archive's evidence. I am sick and tired of having to put up with that kind of malice.

Statement by Radeksz

Short version

Skapperod, regularly, when he finds himself in a content dispute with others resorts to attempts to have those who disagree with him banned rather than working on resolving the dispute. He has been warned about using AE before to that effect ([76]). This is just another instance of this mentality of trying to get people blocked by slandering them rather than working on dispute resolution and achieving consensus.

The basis for this request is the disagreement over at Treaties_of_Bautzen_and_Merseburg. There was an article on Peace of Bautzen which Skapperod "deleted" by making it into a redirect. He then created the "Treaties of Bautzen and Merseburg" article which violates WP:SYNTH. After some discussion he made a RfC request, [77]. So far so good and that was commendable. Unfortunately for him, the response by an outside uninvolved editor to his RfC has been that indeed, the article violated SYNTH and should be split into two [78]. At that point Skapperod began badgering the outside commentator which provoked an irked response by him [79].

Additionally, I would very much like for Skapperod to explain why he is redirecting an article ABOUT a conflict to an article about the treaty which ENDED the conflict [80]. It's as if someone redirected the article on World War I to the article on Treaty of Versailles. This kind of edit goes beyond any kind of BRD notion of being "bold" to simply being a vindictive "I'm gonna get you" kind of edit; it just doesn't make sense otherwise.

So the RfC is not going as he had hoped, he is determined to ignore outside opinion and the result is that he is trying to get me banned to get his way. To do this he distorts and misrepresents my actions.

I have not done anything against Wikipedia policy and nothing that Skapperod writes above shows that. In fact, if I had broken Wikipedia policy, then why is this request not at Arbitration Enforcement? The obvious answer is that you can get in serious trouble (including blocks) for filing spurious reports and Skapperod knows this (as he's almost been blocked for this in the past). But you can't get blocked for presenting spurious cases to the Arb Com (at least I don't think so). So this is the "safer" venue for block-shopping.

I have in fact worked on uncontroversial material on Poland related current events ([81]), sourced Poland related unreferenced BLPs ([82]), Bund related topics ([83]), economics ([84], [85]) and fielding requests at WikiProject Poland [86]). This too would be uncontroversial if Skapperod didn't make controversy where none should exist, apparently out of some kind of a belief that any kind of criticism of his actions is somehow against Wikipedia policy.

Long version addressing individual attacks

Example 1 - Johann Dzierzon

I made a comment at the article after which an outside, uninvolved editor opened a Request Move proposal [87] [88] because there were some questions of misuse of Google books searches in the preceding discussion. Nota bene, the previous RM had only two support votes, both by users who have since been topic banned from Eastern European topics. There was bickering at the RM, typical of this topic area and in fact the designation of such behavior as "bickering" is not mine but rather User:Sandstein's. It's quite appropriate too. Anyway, the RM was closed by Future Perfect at Sunrise with the statement ""no consensus, hence no move". There are some reasonable arguments on both sides" which at very least indicates that requesting an RM was not an unreasonable thing to do. So... what kind of policy was exactly broken here?

As an aside I have no idea who User:Mamalala is, and I've never seen a SPI on the user and I don't think there ever was one.

Hence this is an example where Skapperod is trying to get somebody who simply disagrees with him in regard to content banned.

Example 2 - Jewish Community of Danzig

The article very clearly violated the Gdansk/Danzig vote, but nm that. In this example by Skapperod he is actually being blatantly dishonest. He characterizes my actions as follows: Radeksz moved the article [16] (no e/s). - meaning that I did not use an edit summary and Radeksz moved the article again [18] (no e/s) - again trying to make me look bad because I did not use an edit summary.

Basically Skapperod is trying to portray my actions here as if I moved the article without any kind of discussion. This is completely false. In the first instance, I actually DID use an edit summary as can be clearly seen here [89] (hence this part of his statement is straight up false). And then I explained the edit on the talk page [90], as a quick click on the talk of the article clearly shows (hence this is an attempt at a sneaky misrepresentation).

The only comment by an uninvolved user, Malik Shabazz stated: It seems to me the name should be Jewish community of Gdańsk because the article covers a period that spans the Danzig period. Similar to History of Gdańsk. . So the only outside person participating in the discussion actually agreed with me.

The article still violates the Gdansk/Danzig vote. It still should be moved back to Jewish Community of Gdansk, but frankly, faced with this kind of tendentious nationalist editing and battleground mentality I basically said "screw it", let them have it, and left it where it was. I did nothing wrong here and I resent Skapperod's slander.

Example 3 - Johannes von Baysen

The article was under "Johannes von Baysen", originally created by a user (Matthead) now banned from Eastern European topics. There are ZERO English language sources which use that name [91] (there actually is one, but it's to a self-published novel of "alternate history"). There are a number of English language sources which use "Jan Bazynski" [92]. So I moved it to the title that is actually used by English language sources. This prompted belligerent bullying demands that I move the article back by Skapperod, and attempts by him to try to portray German language sources as being "English" [93].

There was some discussion and it was brought up that in fact "Hans" is sometimes used in English language sources (essentially, there are two of these). I indicated my willingness to consider it. But rather than discussing the matter further, Skapperod continued with his ultimatums. In the meantime Herkus asked for a third opinion [94], which was commendable. The third opinion arrived and it said:

You'll notice that I have not dismissed your (i.e. mine; the recommendation was basically for more discussion - Radeksz) edit out-of-hand. Are your sources more indicative of the name you changed the article to? Also, are they reliable sources? If the answer to both is yes, then in my opinion it is up to the opposing debaters (i.e. Skapperod) to offer evidence in support of their own position. If there is no such evidence, a simple personal disagreement is not sufficient grounds to reverse the change. (i.e. to move back the article to the name not used in sources)

and

If there is still ambiguity, you should ask for more input from more editors (through perhaps, WP:RFC), but I do encourage you to reach a compromise - I notice you have already started discussing this.

I want to request that Skapperod provide a diff of the statement from the 3O outside uninvolved commentator where s/he says something like "what Radeksz was wrong" or "that was against policy" or even just "the move should be reverted" - he can't because there was nothing of the kind. So basically, the 3O indicated that there was nothing wrong with the original move but that editors should work to achieve consensus. There WAS in fact ongoing discussion at the article, between myself, Herkus and Henrig (who I may disagree with, but whom I consider to be good faithed editors) and compromise solutions were floated (for example to use the hyphenated form Baysen-Bazynski that apparently the guy's descendants now use). Skapperod CHOSE not to participate in that discussion but just kept making bullying demands for a self-revert. He then moved the article back without any kind of discussion on his part.

Please note that I've asked Skapperod why he moved the article back to the one particular name which is used by ZERO sources but he has refused to reply [95]. He has also refused to provide any kind of quotation from non-English language sources which he is using in the article [96].

This is another example where I just gave up hope on any kind of reasonable discussion and left the article alone, particularly since Skapperod seemed intent on completely ignoring the Third Opinion that had been provided and even refused to participate in the discussion. So much for his adherence to DR. Again, I did not in any way break any Wikipedia policies, in letter or in spirit and there is simply no basis for a complaint here except bad faith.

Example 4 - Treaties of Bautzen and Merseburg

This is basically the heart of the matter and the real reason for Skapperod's block-shopping. There used to be an article on Peace of Bautzen. Skapperod "deleted" it by making it into a redirect. He then created a POV SYNTH article on Treaties of Bautzen and Merseburg. The SYNTHed article covers two different topics but Skapperod combined them into two, basically for nationalistic reasons (to end a series of treaties with one that made Germany look GREAT!). No reliable sources, by German historians included (or even, especially by German historians, who are generally a lot less radical than some Wikipedia users), do this.

I created separate articles for the two different topics and initiated discussion on talk page. Discussion ensued. I asked for outside help at WikiProject Military History. Skapperod asked for an RfC. That in itself was commendable. What was NOT commendable however, was completely ignoring the comments that were provided as a result of this request by uninvolved User:Variable [97] and then badgering him on his talk page about his opinion [98], which provoked a response from him [99].

In the meantime I also created an article on the military conflict that one of these treaties ended. Skapperod tried to "delete" this article as well through the use of redirects [100] (the article was a unsourced stub because it was newly created work in progress, as I clearly indicated here. This prompted an inquiry by myself at WP:Deletion policy [101] where discussion is still ongoing.

So basically, Skapperod asked for an RfC. The comments provided by uninvolved editor disagreed with his synthesis and agreed with my proposal to split the article into two. So the RfC is not going the way Skapperod would like, so he is determined to ignore it (after himself requesting the comment!) and the only way he can do that is to block shop a ban for me.

This is a textbook example of how NOT to behave on Wikipedia. It is a textbook example of how Wikipedia dispute resolution processes are abused and gamed (Ask for RfC. If it agrees with you great! If it disagrees with you ignore it and get the person you disagree with banned!) and it is a clear cut evidence for Skapperod's own battleground mentality.

Other examples - really quickly

On Talk:Zemuzil, Duke of Pomerania, Radeksz repeatedly referred to my talk page posts as OR - they were OR. Skapperod seems to be under the impression that any kind of criticism of his actions is against Wikipedia policies. As far as I'm aware no such Wikipedia policy exists yet.

He then linked that post as a “compliment” on my talk. - Here's the whole discussion [102]. Yes, I made the mistake of trying to thank Skapperod and say something nice to him. He quickly began making personal attacks against me. Ok. Now WHO has the battleground mentality here?

This outburst/PA in defense of EEML-member [[User:Biophys|Biophys] (warning [43]) - yeah I admit it, I get upset when I see somebody bully and badger others. I think I have pretty thick skin when it comes to personal attacks directed at myself, and I routinely ignore them. But I DO get upset when I see somebody try to publicly humiliate another person. I hate bullies, have zero tolerance for them, and very strongly believe they have no place on Wikipedia. When I see it happen, yeah, ok, some of the usual civility gets put aside. Note that this supposed "warning" says that the other user's comments were "unjustifiable"

Radeksz tried to get EEML target Dr. Dan sanctioned, just 5 days after his topic ban was lifted - Dr. Dan an EEML target? Don't be ridiculous. The only way he was a "target" was that people mentioned was that it was best to "just ignore him". Anyway, Sandstein's comment here was the reference may well have been intentional, but it's too indirect to be sanctionable in my opinion

Radeksz attacks a sysop for sanctioning his associate Loosmark [45] - Loosmark is not my "associate" (whatever that is), though he is an occasional chess partner on Wiki. Anyway - that's a wrong diff I think.

Radeksz attacks a Lithuanian editor as nationalist [48] - this is a self-revert I made after once again giving up in the face of tendentious editing. Apparently it was appreciated by the user involved (Lokyz) [103]. I responded back in similar friendly vein [104] and it actually began to look like real progress on resolving long standing disputes could be made [105]. Lokyz appears not to have the same problem as Skapperod with receiving compliments and thanks and hopefully this dialogue will continue..... but I forgot, what exactly is Skapperod alleging I did wrong here? Self-revert? Initiate friendly conversation?

With an unsuccessful 3RR report - false, the report was successful. The page was protected which prevented edit warring (which I was not involved in) from continuing. Actually, this phrasing by Skapperod is quite revealing of the mindset here. For him, a report is not a "success" unless it results in someone getting blocked or banned. For myself, I'm quite happy if disputes are resolved and edit warring ceases.

Radeksz joined a discussion unrelated to him on my talk page with a comment making me look like Gollum - I'll leave that one without comment, except to say that Skapperod appears to be completely misinterpreting (intentionally or not) my remark.

Radeksz also followed me to an SPI I opened - nope, I saw the SPI after I noticed that Skapperod has managed to harass a productive editor into leaving Wikipedia [106]. This editor had just made several changes to a number of articles on my watchlist. Unfortunately, Skapperod is employing the exact same tactics here. The scary thing is, these tactics may be working.

As to my AE block [107] - apparently, in reporting an interaction ban violation, I made the mistake of taking this statement by Shell Kinney [108] seriously; Sandstein saw it differently. Shrug.

Battleground language by Skapperod

Battleground language is used by Skapperod through out this request. It is designed to misrepresent my actions and it is indicative of how he approaches disagreements on article talk pages.

Here are a few examples: "Radeksz attacked"

"Radeksz attacked me again"

"Radeksz attacks a sysop"

"Radeksz attacks a Lithuanian editor"

"Radeksz on his user page attacks Varsovian"

"Radeksz accused me"

I have not "attacked" anyone. This is Skapperod's typical tactic of bullying his opponents, of trying to make them look bad when in fact they have done nothing wrong and it illustrative of the battleground mentality that he has.

Making constructive criticisms of other people's actions - like pointing out that an editor is in fact doing OR - or disagreeing with administrative action (we're still allowed to do that on Wikipedia, right?) or - most ironically of all - engaging in discussion aimed at resolving long standing disputes (as was the case with the "Lithuanian editor") is not "attacking" anyone.

Skapperod is leaving out the word "personal" from before the word "attack" in the above but the insinuation is clear. This kind of behavior (and this report in general, really) is a clear violation of WP:CIVIL which states:

"This policy is not a weapon to use against other contributors. To insist that an editor be sanctioned for an isolated, minor offense, or to treat constructive criticism as an attack, is itself potentially disruptive, and may result in warnings or even blocks if repeated." [109].

I have asked Skapperod in the past to avoid using such inflammatory battleground language [110] (gimme a minute to find other examples of such unnecessary rhetoric) but he removed it without responding with an edit summary in which he called me a "nationalist" [111] (an accusation which I very much strongly object to and which is about as far from my personal philosophy as can be. If anything accusing me of being a "rootless cosmopolitan" would be more apt).

Problems with asserting "ownership" of articles by Skapperod

Wikipedia policy (NOT guideline, NOT an essay) on WP:Ownership: All Wikipedia content is edited collaboratively. Wikipedia contributors are editors, not authors, and no one, no matter how skilled, has the right to act as if they are the owner of a particular article. (my emphasis)

These two "dummy edits" (i.e. they did not change anything in the article itself) on Peace of Bautzen and Treaty of Merseburg are about as clear indication as can be had that Skapperod does not accept this policy and considers himself to be both author and owner of the articles on the subject matter. His edit summary states: dummy edit: This article is largely a copy of sections from Treaties of Bautzen and Merseburg id 383623077, authored by User:Skäpperöd, copied here by User:Radeksz

As an aside, the edit summary is misleading. I didn't just copy the articles but also did extensive clean up and expended the articles [112], [113], and added additional sources.

This is another illustration of the basic problem here; Skapperod feels he "owns" articles on these topics and other editors are not allowed to disagree with him (even if supported by third opinions and comments from RfCs).

Add

Skapperod states: The dummy edits were a consequence of Radeksz's unattributed copy/paste-split and the reverts he made after the split was undone and the RfC at the original article started [64] [65], violating WP:BRD and WP:Copying within Wikipedia#Content forking: "The acceptable solution to disagreement on the development of an article is to seek consensus through dispute resolution." This is exactly what I have done when I started the RfC. Radeksz could not possibly have missed the ongoing RfC since it was linked in the edit summaries of the edits he reverted [66] [67], but he nevertheless chose reverting over DR.

There was nothing which prevented Skapperod from first opening an RfC rather then first reverting my split of the SYNTHed article. In fact, the proper thing to have done would've been starting discussion on the original Peace of Bautzen article which he "deleted" by turning it into a redirect. RfC should not serve as a cover for "protecting" the one's preferred version of an article - i.e. choosing reverting and trying to abuse DR to cover one's tracks.

Yes, Skapperod started the RfC - as I said before, that in itself was commendable. The problem is that he ignored (and is still ignoring) results of RfCs and 3O when these are provided. He's creating a typical "heads I win, tails you loose" situation and exploiting the DR process for his own ends.

Skapperod states: Radeksz also cherry-picked quotes to suggests that I had acted against consensus. E.g. for the Baysen dispute, he picked only part of a quote of a user who provided a 3O, the whole 3O thread is here and others commented, too

I didn't cherry pick anything, I provided the portion of the quote which directly addressed Skapperod's false allegation that I did something wrong here. Others commented, too - sure, but ῤerspeκὖlὖm was the only uninvolved, outside user.

Skapperod states: Another example is the ongoing Bautzen and Merseburg RfC, where he provided only one user's oppinion here. - again, I provided the opinion of the only uninvolved, outside user who arrived as a result of the RfC.

Skapperod states: the diffs deal with Radeksz's disruption that already happened - this is more slander since no disruption has happened, no evidence to that effect has been provided and such a conclusion has not been reached. This is typical Skapperod - pretending that something has already found to be true when in fact nothing of the sort has happened and using strong language to that effect to actually bring about the effect. It's simply false and the tactic is a plain dishonest rhetorical trick.

Skapperod states: no matter how the RfC goes. - the RfC was requested. An uninvolved editor provided an opinion. Skapperod immediately began arguing with the uninvolved outside editor. The uninvolved editor replied again (apparently annoyed at Skapperod, but that's just my reading of the situation). The RfC is pretty much done. What Skapperod is doing here is pretending that the requested for comment hasn't arrived because it didn't agree with him, and is trying to keep the RfC open for "as long as it takes" for someone who agrees with him to show up. This is clearly an attempt at gaming DR and RfC processes. And somehow he has the chutzpah to allege that I did something wrong!

Skapperod states, in regard to my allegation of his block-shopping as a means of "solving" his content disputes: It is of course unsubstantiated by evidence, as it is just not true. - no, I've already substantiated it above. I've pointed to user Schwyz who left Wikipedia because of harassment from Skapperod. And I've shown the strong warning Skapperod received from Sandstein previously for this kind of behavior. This is also the second (third, if you count the little smear campaign he launched at me during my appeal) time he has done this to me. There are also others, and, I will provide additional evidence shortly.radek (talk) 19:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bottom line

Basically what we have here is a series of content disputes. And Skapperod, rather than working to resolve content disputes, tries to "solve" them by having those he disagrees with banned. If that's how Wikipedia dispute resolution works... why stick around anyway?

As an aside, I've mostly worked on non controversial material since July, have had several articles DYKed ([114], [115], [116], [117], [118], [119], [120], [121], [122], [123], [124], [125]), and have tried to avoid controversy. But with editors like Skapperod around - controversy is created, even where there should be none.radek (talk) 11:37, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Skapperod 2

The AE case didn't have anything to do with some "concerned attack". It had to do with the fact that I said Skapperod was engaging in disruptive forum shopping (he was - he was asking for a discussion on the same topic for the fourth time, despite three previous occasions of consensus by uninvolved editors going against him [126]). Since Skapperod appears to believe that any kind of criticism of his actions is against Wikipedia policy he filed a spurious AE report against me. Here's what Sandstein had to say on the occasion [127]:

This looks like a misuse of WP:AE in order to win the upper hand in a content dispute. The edits cited in the request are not objectionable; rather, they reflect routine disagreements about content. In particular, it is not disruptive to state one's opinion that "Removing a large chunk of text without discussing it first is generally seen as "disruptive"". Unless other administrators disagree, I will close this thread with a warning to Skäpperöd that AE is not a substitute for, or part of, proper dispute resolution, and that he may face sanctions if he files more unfounded enforcement requests.

This is exactly what's going on here as well

None of my edits Skapperod links to are objectionable. They are all routine disagreement about content. It is not disruptive to state one's opinion that Skapperod is engaging in OR, or making SYNTH, or to ask him for sources, or even to call him "stubborn". Hence this whole request by Skapperod is a misuse of Wikipedia dispute resolution process, in order to win the upper hand in a content dispute.

Skapperod, Arbitration Enforcement is over here. If you really had evidence that any of those edits you link to were objectionable or violated Wikipedia guidelines, why don't you/didn't you, file a proper AE Request for them? Of course, if you don't have any evidence and such reports are judged to be spurious, you risk getting blocked yourself. So put your money where your mouth is, so to speak.radek (talk) 12:35, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Skapperod's mischaracterization of BRD

Skapperod has a very peculiar understanding of the Bold, Revert, Discuss policy. If he makes a controversial edit or reverts you, that's being "bold". If someone else makes an edit Skapperod disagrees with or reverts him that's... well, gosh darn it! That's just bad!

Despite Skapperod's notion this essay (neither policy nor guideline) does not say that "Skapperod is allowed to revert others but others may not revert or even criticize Skapperod". Rather what the essay says is:

BRD is not a justification for imposing one's own view, or tendentious editing without consensus. - in particular it is not a justification for ignoring third opinions and RfC comments after these have been provided.
BRD is not a process that you can require other editors to follow. - in particular, it is not a process which makes it ok for one editor to revert but not for others to respond to such reverts.
BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes. - this goes to the heart of the matter. BRD is no justification for reverting editors simply because you don't like them. It is even less of a justification for trying to get them blocked.
Don't invoke BRD as your reason for reverting someone else's work...provide a reason that is based on policies, guidelines, or common sense' - Skapperod repeatedly cites BRD as an excuse for reverting others [128]

And that's just on this one article.

Response to Malik and mediation

Despite the fact that I have some reservations about mediation, particularly since previous forms of dispute resolution have not worked due to Skapperod's ignoring of outside opinion, I've read up on the process and I think that it might work here.

As a result I've filed a motion for mediation here: [129].

Further discussion

Statement by Malik Shabazz

I agree with Radeksz that this is at bottom a series of content disputes, and I don't see any behavior that warrants a restoration of his topic ban.

I would like to recommend, however, that he and Skäpperöd consider mediation to resolve some of the difficulties they are having working together. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 18:04, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Petri Krohn

It is interesting that my name is brought up here, but not at all surprising considering the fascination EEML participants have with my name.

Update: Radeksz removed the following text from his statement: "In the ensuing discussion Petri Krohn all of sudden became involved, in a situation which the Arb Com probably already knows more about than I want to go into here. While Petri has behaved himself somewhat better as of late, he is/was clearly not an uninvolved user here."

Radeksz is making accusations against me trough innuendo. The arbitrators have seen the EEML evidence. If they have, they should be fully aware that a large part of the activity of the EE mailing list was targeted at my user account and someone in real life they thought was me.

As to the mystical meaning of whatever “Arb Com probably already knows more about” I can only guess. I would not be surprised, if some kind of secret email campaign against me was going on at this very moment conducted by former EEML members, as I have already seen some alarming signs of hanky-panky. All this has hardly anything to do with my edits on Wikipedia, but are more related to real world politics.

Jewish Community of Danzig

In this case of Jewish Community of Danzig Radeksz's actions were most distractive, as they almost prevented a high-quality article from appearing in the DYK section.

I was first alerted to a related issue when an interwiki bot made this strange edit to an article on the Finnish Wikipedia which I had created two years ago. Entering the English language Wikipedia I discovered a major controversy surrounding the undiscussed moves of articles on historical provinces. I then commented on the issue here, here, here, here, here, and even here.

In preparing my argument I went looking for the most irrational move, I checked this log of reverted page moves and came across the "Jewish Community of Gdańsk". I was surprised to see that the move was unrelated to the provinces dispute and was in fact done by Radecsz. Knowing how willingly EEML participants make accusations against me, I entered the talk page referring to the dispute that had brought me there. I was responded to by hostile accusations of stalking.

A week later I reverted a controversial naming change in Prince-Bishop citing the Gdańsk (Danzig) vote in my edit summary. I had first edited the article in February 2006 while Radeksz has never edited it before. Ten minutes later he reverts my edits, sparking this long discussion on the article talk page. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:05, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note from Jacurek

Mamalala was not my sockpuppet. Skäpperöd, please remove this slander from your evidence page.--Jacurek (talk) 01:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- Skäpperöd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is also known for misuse of other boards in order to win the upper hand in content disputes. In addition to the already mentioned warning he received for filing unfounded request here [130] he was also put on notice here[131] after filing different unfounded request to win the upper hand in other content dispute [132] Here is the comment from the reviewing administrator [133].

I could provide many other examples of sanction able behavior of user Skäpperöd. Here is one from my latest interaction with him:

- After unfounded revert here [134] and my request [135] Skäpperöd ignoring all WP:CIVILITY rules [136] responds with this derision and name calling [137] and advises me to go away and enjoy the summer[138]--Jacurek (talk) 23:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Varsovian

While I can/will not comment on Raseksz's article edits or this request, it is interesting that despite writing more than three and a half thousand words, he can't come up with a single word to defend his behaviour towards me. In fact the only mention he makes of me is that he "opened a RM for the article, because the previous RM had only two support votes, both by users who have since been topic banned" Very interesting that he uses a future topic ban as justification for opening an RM. Also interesting that Radeksz repeatedly uses a precise legal term (slander) and Jacurek then uses the precise same term in his 13 word note. What are the chances of that happening?! Varsovian (talk) 14:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tropical wind

This request is hardly surprising. It was also my intention to file something after my encounter with Mr Radeksz at Talk:Johann Dzierzon. Daring to vote on the other side, of a user with the enunciation and behavior "raid X", the next moment I immediately found myself on the receiving end of an attack [139][140] Looking at Mr Skäpperöd's presentation, I now see that this was not an isolated incident, but part of a pattern, where Radeksz always tries to intimidate anyone who dares to oppose his POV.[141][142] It is my view that Radeksz is here only to promote his national agenda, which implies promoting the "Polishness" of every possible famous person who possesses a WP article.

If I understand correctly the content of the debate linked to, Radeksz' previous sanction was removed because he said he just wanted to edit all Economics article freely and only to make gnomish edits and avoid all controversy; yet, the presentation by Skäpperöd proves that quite the opposite happened and Radeksz never took his word seriously and immediately exploited the trust and good will to return to his previous state.

Statement by Dr. Dan

I wish to clarify a few thing here. Regarding the question whether or not Skäpperöd is correct that I was indeed a target of the EEML versus Radeksz's statement that I was not..."Dr. Dan an EEML target? Don't be ridiculous. The only way he was a "target" was that people mentioned was that it was best to "just ignore him". Here are a few emails, concerning the subject, for those who ~~are authorized~~ have the capability to read them (members of ArbCom?). They should peruse them in order to determine who is correct regarding that question.

20090816-2332 20090407-0501 20090614-1938 20090715-0839 20090816-1851 20090819-2328 20090819-2341 20090821-0039 20090908-1819 20090819-2300 20090825-2011

Frankly, I wish Radeksz took his own advice and ignored me, something he has not been able to do since his ban was rescinded. It all boils down to this, the evidence presented by Skäpperöd is not about content disputes, it is about Radeksz's behavior since his ban was lifted. At this point recapitulating that evidence here would be a waste of time. It has been succinctly presented already. Those familiar with his case know that Radeksz was involved in a group that seriously undermined the spirit of the Wikipedia project. As a consequence, he and fellow EEML members were sanctioned (and not with a slap on the wrist). In a magnanimous gesture of good will his ban was lifted, primarily due to promises that he would change his ways, and others believing he would do so. He has stated [143] that he is "reformed". The question is simply whether or not his recent behavior has shown that to be true. Dr. Dan (talk) 17:20, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vecrumba

I regret needing to violate my self-imposed Wiki-break for this week. No one is "authorized" to read EEML correspondence. That my personal Emails and those of others are readily available for such reading is a different matter. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 18:42, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Martintg

I wasn't going to comment but I'm not sure how proper it is for Dr. Dan to continue to refer to private correspondence making claims that others may not be in a position to verify, but my recollection was that the consensus formed on the EEML back in 2009 was that Dr. Dan was a troll and the best thing to do was to ignore him (see 20090819-2328).

In fact, Dr. Dan's claims that he was "targeted" is at odds with his own acknowledgement during the EEML case: "I think one of the major tactics was to "ignore" Dr. Dan", unless of course he is claiming he was "targeted" to be ignored.

Loosemark's riposte: "Have they really planned to "ignore" Dr.Dan? Man that's a really diabolical plan, I hope the ArbCom advises them to stop ignoring you at once!" was subsequently the source of much mirth amongst the EEML members.

In my view:

WP:EEML was primarily about improper co-ordination, there doesn't appear to be any suggestion of that re-occurring in this amendment request, which seems to be more of a description of a series of content disputes.
There are discretionary sanctions available in WP:DIGWUREN if behaviour is an issue and WP:AE is the appropriate venue to address that.

--Martin (talk) 16:15, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Biophys

Forgive and forget. Leave an article to your opponent if you can not resolve your disagreements. Do not blame each other if you want to resolve your disputes. And do not file complaints to Arbcom without asking an uninvolved administrator. Would he/she supported your request or believes this is something reasonable? If not, do not do it. Biophys (talk) 13:38, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by M.K.

I am a bit confused. Particular contributor, user:Radeksz during arbitration showed that he have no desire to abandon his counter-productive behavior (bets example - his accidentally publicized an off-wiki communications at end of arbitration), however it was rather ignored. Then Radeksz topic ban was in full force, he systematically breach it. Again Committee reached out to him and lifted the topic ban. Now, we have more then enough examples, there Radeksz's newest "contributions" exceeded granted trust. But now community witnessing only that Arbiters are rather tired of this situation. But let me ask, what should the good faith editors, who working in the same area, have to do, then they are again provoked, harassed in old style of his? Ignoring such behavior only encourage offender as we know from the past. M.K. (talk) 07:53, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

After thinking about this whole area for a while. I remain convinced that there are disputes in this area that will not be solved (and by solved, I mean preventing future acrimonious disputes from arising), without drastic action. MOST drastic action. Folks, let me make it clear here. There are some users in this area, who are in their own personal Last Chance Saloon. We've tried alternate sanctions. We've tried normalization. Think about where that leaves us. SirFozzie (talk) 20:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I echo SirFozzie. There is a growing tiredness within the Arbitration Committee for all things EEML related. If this area does not start to improve quickly I foresee another case (whether raised sua sponte or otherwise) with remedies that will not make anyone happy. Please be civil and remember we are here to build an encyclopedia. KnightLago (talk) 01:25, 22 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone should read and consider SirFozzie's and KnightLago's comments before perpetuating any unnecessary disputes or engaging in unseemly conduct in this topic-area. Newyorkbrad (talk) 09:38, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Recused. But seriously folks, take these comments to heart - you're painting yourselves into corners. Shell ^babelfish 19:47, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request to amend prior case: Race and intelligence

Initiated by Wapondaponda (talk) at 06:27, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected: Race and intelligence arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Proposed decision#Captain_Occam_topic-banned

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Muntuwandi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
Captain Occam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Ferahgo the Assassin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Amendment 1

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Proposed decision#Captain_Occam_topic-banned
The extension of the topic ban to include Ferahgo the Assassin who appears to be either a proxy account or a Sockpuppet account of Captain Occam.

Statement by Muntuwandi

This is a follow up to a request for enforcement found in this archive. According to the result two uninvolved administrators, Stifle and Slp1 stated that administrators who monitor the enforcement noticeboard were not in the position to make a decision concerning the request (Stifle suggested a request for amendment).

Immediately after Captain Occam's topic ban was confirmed, Ferahgo the Assassin, a user who apparently is known to Captain Occam, took an interest in editing race and intelligence articles. According to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Captain Occam/Archive, the closing admin recommended that the two accounts should be treated as one per WP:SHARE. However no ruling was made concerning this matter from the enforcement noticeboard.

Since no ruling was made, Ferahgo the Assassin has continued to be involved in race and intelligence matters. The user's pattern of editing on race and intelligence matters is similar to that of Captain Occam. Much of the evidence is found at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive68. More recent events include further canvassing. Captain Occam has on occasion tried to seek help from Dbachmann [144], [145], [146]. Recently Ferahgo the Assassin also tried to get help from Dbachmann, though it is the user's 'first time' communicating with Dbachmann, the user is already familiar with Dab stating. "You seem to be more active and responsive than him, so I figured I'd ask you" [147].

Others have argued that Ferahgo the Assassin should be treated as independent editor. I find this argument untenable. In the four years since Ferahgo the Assassin has been a registered user, all his or her edits prior to the arbitration were to support Captain Occam or his suggestions. I therefore see no evidence both post and pre-Arbitration of independent editing.

In summary Captain Occam appears to be gaming his topic ban, either by being a sockpuppet or by getting another editor to make edits on his behalf. I consider this a violation of his topic ban.

Wapondaponda (talk) 06:27, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Ferahgo

"I've made a number of productive contributions to them".Forgive me in advance but my reservoir of good faith has been somewhat depleted by recent events. I am of the opinion that many of your so called "productive edits" are really token edits to muddy up the issue. I believe that you are Captain Occam and that you are trying your best to be disruptive and at the same time trying your best to not get discovered. The current trajectory of your edits is clearly in the direction of more disruption. These edits [148], [149], and [150] are clearly confrontational and reminiscent of Captain Occam. :Wapondaponda (talk) 10:26, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't giving editors a chance in this respect the whole point of WP:ROPE?. How ironic, as Maunus has pointed out, after this statement. Indeed Captain Occam seems to be hoping that discretionary sanctions are applied to editors he doesn't agree with, see also User_talk:Georgewilliamherbert/Archives/2010/August#A_question_about_discretionary_sanctions. Seems like a continuance of WP:BATTLEGROUND. Wapondaponda (talk) 05:44, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Accusations of harassment

I understand some of the sensitivities associated with this incident. I don't think anyone would want a newbie editor to immediately get caught up in arbitration hearings, per WP:BITE. At the same time others may exploit WP:BITE, to deflect legitimate criticisms. I take accusations of harassment very seriously. According to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Proposed decision#Single_purpose_accounts and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Proposed decision#Captain_Occam_.28conduct.29, single issue editing was a cause of concern. Captain Occam had an intense fixation on race and intelligence issues, which in my opinion was a major contributing factor to the escalation of the dispute. Captain Occam received a temporary editing restriction in part to help deescalate the dispute. If Captain Occam were to circumvent this editing restriction by having someone else make his choice of edits, then it defeats the purpose of the editing restriction. I believe the behavioral evidence strongly suggests that Captain Occam is either Ferahgo the Assassin or Ferahgo the Assassin is working in concert with Captain Occam. I have followed the appropriate channels to have this concern addressed, and while not everyone agrees with me, a number of editors, including uninvolved administrators, have stated that WP:SOCK, WP:MEAT or WP:SHARE are legitimate concerns. As long as this request is resolved, I will respect whatever decision is made, and will move on. :Wapondaponda (talk) 08:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Ferahgo over chronology

Ferahgo states

"The arbcom decision was finalized on Aug 24. I stated my intention to get involved in these articles on Aug 21"

and

"For you to try and make your case look stronger by misrepresenting when I got involved in these articles is really disingenuous."

The point is that within a short time of the topic ban, Ferahgo decided to get involved in race issues. I was speaking in general terms when I wrote "something like within hours". Unfortunately I have to be pedantic and address this. According to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Proposed decision, items that receive a majority vote, in this case 6 votes, would pass. Looking at Captain Occam's section, the sixth vote in support of a topic ban came in at 06:26, 20 August 2010 (UTC) and the seventh at 21:39, 20 August 2010 (UTC). At 04:42, 21 August 2010 (UTC), that is within less than 24 hours of the sixth vote, Ferahgo the Assassin declares intentions to edit race and intelligence articles [151]. Wapondaponda (talk) 20:09, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I find Captain Occam's recommendation that Captain Occam, in the form of Ferahgo the Assassin, be placed on probation quite comical. I want to respond to a few accusations. But I believe that if I were to add further comments to this thread, they wouldn't add much value to what is already in place. So I will avoid making more comments because I believe the pattern of editing of the involved editors is clear by now. Editors already familiar with Captain Occam will note that Ferahgo's conduct in this thread, responding to every post, conjuring up excuses for everything is certainly Occamesque.

I have mentioned before that I have only reluctantly requested for the account Ferahgo to fall under the scope of arbcom restrictions. It is possible that Ferahgo is a separate individual from Captain Occam so I do share the discomfort that a number of other editors have because it would be unfair to WP:BITE a newbie editor to the controversy. My concern isn't Ferahgo, rather it is Captain Occam. I would request others to not consider this thread a discussion about Ferahgo the individual, that is if he or she exists, rather it should be about whether Captain Occam is evading his editing restrictions by WP:SOCK, WP:MEAT OR WP:SHARE. If another editor is assisting Captain Occam evade his topic ban, then they shouldn't be surprised that that any restrictions on Captain Occam may be placed on them as well.

Just to specifically respond to accusations of coordinated POV pushing that Ferahgo/Occam are using to try to shift attention from their own conduct.

Ferahgo states

"It's about Muntuwandi and Weiji wanting to get rid of me - an easy target - so they can push their POVs more easily"

and

"Whether Weiji is right or wrong to want this, what matters here is that he and Muntuwandi shouldn't be trying to win a content dispute by getting arbcom to eliminate their opposition"

I think Weiji and I make our own independent decisions, we haven't agreed on everything. For instance here, I disagreed with Weiji over an article move (something which Ferahgo/Occam conveniently omitted from their evidence). Weiji later stated that his decision to move the article was based on a Britannica article and I understood where he was coming from. Wapondaponda (talk) 04:49, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Kirill

I respectfully disagree that there is little evidence suggesting that Ferahgo the Assassin and Captain Occam are not independent. Two administrators have advised Ferahgo the Assassin that given her connection with Captain Occam, it wasn't a good idea for the user to be involved in race and intelligence matters immediately after Captain Occam's topic ban. According to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Captain_Occam/Archive#Clerk.2C_patrolling_admin_and_checkuser_comments two uninvolved admins felt there was evidence. A checkuser was not carried out, as Captain Occam preempted it by admitting that he and Ferahgo the Assassin use the same Network/Computer when working on Wikipedia. As Stifle mentioned here , some declaratory relief would be helpful ie either Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin are meatpuppets or they are not. I do think they are, I do not yet know what the broader community's opinion about this is, which is why have I filed this request. I will live with whatever is decided.

Wapondaponda (talk) 18:00, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Vecrumba

"I've already commented that this sort of painful prolonging of the arbitration (now seeming more like insistence) is unhelpful". I think the editors prolonging the arbitration are Captain Occam and his proxy account. If Captain Occam had been observing his topic ban like Mathsci or David.Kane, I wouldn't have filed this request. I don't enjoy filing these requests and I am doing so reluctantly and after some thought and consideration. Until today, Ferahgo the Assassin had never edited the race and genetics article. The user's very first edit to race and genetics is to revert to the use of an image related to the image which Captain Occam had been edit warring over [152]. Is this just a coincidence? I can't help but think not. :Wapondaponda (talk) 16:18, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Tim Song

I understand what you are saying. Basically even if F is a sock or meat of CO, as long as F is conducting themselves reasonably, then there are no problems. I have been thinking about that which was why I initially stated that I wasn't going to file another request after the enforcement request. The principle is found at Wikipedia:Ignore all rules, which would imply that even if Occam is violating his topic ban by proxy or sock editing, if his edits are not hurting the encyclopedia, then it shouldn't matter. Others will argue that for a community to function effectively, rules should be observed. It's a philosophical issue that is beyond the scope of this debate.

You state "Once again we focus too much on the users and not the conduct." This is also fair, but I would like to give some context. The current dispute is close to one year old. For several months there was a lot of bickering over content issues with no peaceful resolution in sight. The dispute was escalated to Arbcom for the precise purpose of investigating user conduct issues. As the saying goes, Arbcom doesn't deal with content problems. In short, based on the circumstances of this dispute, some focus on users is justified.

Wapondaponda (talk) 17:56, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Occam

"One effect of his doing this was to once again remove a chart from this article that he edit warred to remove a year ago (described in my arbitration evidence here), which resulted in him being placed under a month of 1RR on this article". Once again you are cherry picking sanctions, as GWH chose not to take sides and slapped a 0RR restriction on the both of us. See his comment here. I suggest that you refactor your statement to reflect this. The issue of the image has not been resolved. The subject is quite technical so I will make it as simple as possible. Captain Occam inserted an image into the race and genetics article. On his talk page he provides a link to his blog where he discusses the image [153] in which he writes that the image proves the unpopular theory that there is a biological basis for race. Captain Occam admits on his blog that he hasn't read the book where the image was originally sourced from, that is Cavalli Sforza's History and Geography of Human Genes. Captain Occam learned of the image from reading Arthur Jensen's book, The G factor, a book that is concerned with race and intelligence, the topic which Occam is fixated on. My conclusion, Captain Occam is advocating a race and intelligence POV in a separate article race and genetics. In fact I consider this the worst form of POV pushing because Occam was edit warring over an image from a book which he admitted he hadn't read. A book which explicitly states that readers shouldn't attach a racial meaning to the image, when Captain Occam was in fact attaching a racial meaning to the image. I started editing the race and genetics article after I read Cavalli-Sforza's books, so I hope others can understand my frustration that someone else was edit warring over content from a book which they had not read and showed no intention of reading. Wapondaponda (talk) 02:17, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to David Kane

"I assume that we all agree that Ferahgo and Occam are, in real life, two separate people"'. I don't necessarily agree with this line of reasoning. For Wikipedia purposes, it is possible that two separate editors may be treated as a single entity. According to WP:MEAT,

"For the purposes of dispute resolution, the Arbitration Committee has decided that when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sock puppets, or several users acting as meatpuppets, they may be treated as one entity"

If the account named Ferahgo was indeed an independent editor, then this issue would never have been raised. Strictly speaking, this issue isn't about Ferahgo the Assassin, rather it is about Captain Occam and whether Captain Occam is using another editor or another account to try to evade his topic ban. The fact that an account named Ferahgo the Assassin decided to get involved in race issues something like within hours of Captain Occam's editing restriction being finalized demonstrates a lack of independence between the two accounts.

Wapondaponda (talk) 18:06, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Maunus

Regarding your statement

"Furthermore since David Kane and Occam have been topic banned I find myself feeling forced to make pro-hereditarian edits, simply because this viewpoint is now very weakly represented (among editors, not in the articles), I don't enjoy this as it is not a view I personally entertain"

I was intending to specifically address this issue, but Captain Occam's topic ban has never really worked because he has managed to evade it twice, first by claiming that the main race article didn't fall under the editing restrictions, and second by proxy editing. The notion that disruptive editing is somehow a necessary evil for the sake of neutrality just isn't true. Before Captain Occam and David Kane got involved in race issues, all the articles that included hereditarian arguments were already in place. So it isn't appropriate to give the missimpression that these two editors are the only editors who can represent "hereditarian theories" on wikipedia. You are implying that many editors involved in the articles are somehow non-neutral. There is general agreement among most or all editors involved that hereditarian or biological theories should be represented, the major concern is that they should not be misrepresented or given undue weight beyond the weight given to them by mainstream academia. In short, one doesn't need any elaborate excuses to make "pro-hereditarian arguments", one can simply go ahead and make them as others have done in the past.

As for "so what if Ferahgo is really proxy editing for Occam, as long as she is not displaying his behavioural problems as well". The decision will be up to the community through our representatives on Arbcom. That is should we allow Captain Occam to evade his topic ban (while others observe theirs) because FTA is allegedly not as disruptive as Captain Occam ( I still believe the user is disruptive). While we all have our POV, we should recall the guiding principles from the Arbcom case on single issue editing was

"Single purpose accounts are expected to contribute neutrally instead of following their own agenda and, in particular, should take care to avoid creating the impression that their focus on one topic is non-neutral, which could strongly suggest that their editing is not compatible with the goals of this project."

Wapondaponda (talk) 05:47, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Michael Price

I have stated that I have no problem with the image when it is sourced to the original authors and discussed in the way the original authors discussed the image. The problem is that the controversial scholar, Arthur Jensen used Cavalli-Sforza's image in his book The G-factor in a way that was inconsistent with Cavalli-Sforza's original interpretation. Captain Occam, based on his own admission, had never read Cavalli-Sforza's work used the image based on Arthur Jensen's interpretation, not on Cavalli-Sforza interpretation. This in the nutshell is the origin of the dispute concerning the image. Wapondaponda (talk) 05:49, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re "you don't have to read a book before posting an image from it -". True, there is no policy that requires users to read the sources the cite. But I think we can all agree that it certainly is helpful to a read source before citing it to make sure that one is citing correctly or not taking things out of context.

I have never stated that I do or do not like Arthur Jensen's publications, only that they are controversial. More importantly Arthur Jensen isn't a molecular geneticist but a psychologist, and his book The G-Factor isn't about molecular genetics. The book and the author are therefore not good candidates for a reliable source on the subject.

I have had some challenges with image. Humans are visual creatures and Wikipedians appreciate images and articles with images. As the saying goes a picture is worth a thousand words. Many casual readers find the image quite interesting, and I do too. However few readers seem to pay attention to the actual text in the article or pay even less attention to the original source. The authors of the image do not use the image in a racial way, and they specifically caution that the image shouldn't be interpreted in a racial way. So my question has been why is this image being used in a racial context when the authors of the image did not. In my opinion it is due to inappropriate advocacy. I have no problem with using the image in an appropriate article such as human genetic variation or human evolution. Wapondaponda (talk) 02:38, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ferahgo the Assassin

In the few weeks that I've been participating on these articles, I've made a number of productive contributions to them, including suggesting new sources, rewording unclear sentences, seeking to achieve consensus on the talk pages, pointing out things I'd noticed, and striving to achieve neutrality. I have been using much of my free time recently to read and research this topic outside of Wikipedia in order to better contribute here. I had been under the impression that my presence here has been constructive and beneficial overall, and the other editors involved have been treating me like any other editor. Even editors like WeijiBaikeBianji and Aprock, who tend to disagree with me from time to time, have been willing to work with me to exchange ideas and improve the article. Of the currently involved editors, Muntuwandi - who is barely involved at all right now - is the only one who appears to think that I'm a sock or meatpuppet.

I have not violated a single policy since beginning to edit here: no tag-teaming, no edit warring, no false claims of consensus - nothing that Occam got in trouble for doing. The assertion that I was "canvassing" by asking DBachmann a question is ridiculous. I was specifically told by GWH [154] that I should ask an admin if I'm afraid there might be a policy violation on an article with discretionary sanctions, and that's exactly what I did. And yes, I'm familiar with DBachmann from watching these articles for a long time now, and his pattern of responsiveness is easy to see from his contributions. Other editors involved in these articles have contacted him for help recently: [155] It's also obvious that he's familiar with these articles in general: [156] There are very few admins who pay attention to R&I articles without being involved and are also very responsive, so it shouldn't be a surprise that there's some overlap in the admins Occam and I have contacted.

Muntuwandi's assertion that "In the four years since Ferahgo the Assassin has been a registered user, all his or her edits prior to the arbitration were to support Captain Occam or his suggestions" is downright ridiculous and demonstrably false. Take a look at my most edited articles: [157] Both before and after I became involved in these articles, most of my contributions have been to completely different types of articles from what Occam has been involved in, which does not fit the definition of Meatpuppetry given at Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry#Meatpuppetry: “A new user who engages in the same behavior as another user in the same context, and who appears to be editing Wikipedia solely for that purpose.”

I suspect that Muntuwandi chose to bring this arbcom case back from the dead today because I undid his revert on the Race and Genetics article. The reason I did this was because he reverted the article back to a version from over a year ago, undoing over a hundred edits in one revert without discussing it with anyone first. [158] Every time I've seen someone do this - which isn't many - it's always been regarded as disruptive.

Before I got involved in these articles, several people were worried my behavior and editing pattern would be too similar to Occam's. But I think it's unnecessary to be worried about this now that after being involved for a few weeks, all of my contributions to the articles have been constructive, and I have not engaged in any of the behavior Occam was sanctioned for. Sanctions are meant to be preventative, not punitive. Therefore I don't think it's reasonable to be topic-banned based on the fear that I might cause the same problems Occam did, when my actual contributions show otherwise. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 08:21, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Muntuwandi

Muntuwandi, all of the edits you've linked to were discussed on the talk pages and everyone except Weijibaikebianji agreed they were improvements. What you regard as confrontational almost everyone else sees as constructive. Your assumption of bad faith seems to be extending to twisting reality to make me look bad, when I haven't done anything wrong. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 11:14, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@ Muntuwandi: "The fact that an account named Ferahgo the Assassin decided to get involved in race issues something like within hours of Captain Occam's editing restriction being finalized demonstrates a lack of independence between the two accounts."

The arbcom decision was finalized on Aug 24. I stated my intention to get involved in these articles on Aug 21 [159], though I didn't get involved right away due to being busy with Rahiolisaurus and Siamotyrannus at the time. My first comment after the case that had anything to do with R&I was on Aug 27 [160], three days after arbitration had finished. I already explained elsewhere in my statement why I got involved when I did. For you to try and make your case look stronger by misrepresenting when I got involved in these articles is really disingenuous. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 19:01, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@ Muntuwandi 2: Once again, you're choosing to see what you want to see. I've already stated more than once that one of the main reasons I didn't get involved until after arbitration was because I couldn't stand Mathsci's behavior. So how about you take a look at whether there's any relationship between my getting involved and Mathsci's topic ban? Mathsci’s topic ban received the necessary number of votes from arbitrators at 23:30 on Aug 20. I expressed my intention to get involved around five hours later. And I stated this was because I expected to see improvements in the editing environment, which was due in large part to Mathsci's absence. My decision to get involved has a far closer and more obvious relationship to Mathsci's topic ban than anything else. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 21:29, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@ Muntuwandi 3: "My concern isn't Ferahgo, rather it is Captain Occam. I would request others to not consider this thread a discussion about Ferahgo the individual, that is if he or she exists, rather it should be about whether Captain Occam is evading his editing restrictions by WP:SOCK, WP:MEAT OR WP:SHARE."

I underside the point you're trying to make, but from my perspective this just seems dehumanizing and unfair. It is about me, not about Occam. Your SPI concluded that he and I are separate people, though it did raise the issue of a topic ban based on WP:SHARE. If I get banned because of Occam, then I'm the one who suffers, not him.

There seems to be some deliberate ambiguity about what policy you think is being violated. The SPI concluded I'm unlikely to be a sockpuppet, and I don't fit the definition of meatpuppet either. A meatpuppet is "a new user who engages in the same behavior as another user in the same context, and who appears to be editing Wikipedia solely for that purpose." Around three-quarters of my edits are still outside of this topic area. [161] But when David.Kane pointed out that the WP:SHARE policy only applies to policies such as 3RR and not editing restrictions, you responded by claiming the issue isn't WP:SHARE but meatpuppetry instead. Can you please be specific about which of these three policies you think I'm violating? -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 17:56, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Shell

Shell: I know that Occam and I could be considered closely-connected users via Wikipedia:SHARE. It says: "“Closely connected users may be considered a single user for Wikipedia's purposes if they edit with the same objectives.” Occam and I might have had similar objectives before the arbcom case, and at that point it didn't matter if we did. When he didn't have sanctions against him it only mattered that we observed policies like 3RR as though we were the same account, and we were careful to do so.

Things are totally different now. Occam is topic-banned and that means it's important that I don't edit these articles with the same objectives he did. Wikipedia:SHARE is very clear about this: if I edit the articles with the same objectives as him, then he and I can be considered the same account. If I don’t, then we can’t. That's why I've recently gone to so much trouble developing my own independent style and personality in editing these articles, researching outside of Wikipedia, reading a great deal on this topic, etc. Every other involved editor besides Muntuwandi seems to acknowledge this.

I don't feel that there's anything to indicate that my current editing style or objectives are more similar to Occam's than they are to many other editors. For example, my undo of Muntuwandi's revert of a year's worth of edits with no discussion. Even if this is something Occam would have done (and I don't even know if it is!) it's also something that loads of other editors would have done, since it was pretty obviously disruptive. You might as well accuse me of being Occam because I revert vandalism, since that's probably something he would do too! During the time since Occam's topic ban, is there anything about my edits that indicate they're more similar to Occam than they are to, say, Victor Chmara and Maunus? -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 22:23, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Maunus

Maunus: As far as I know, the only pov I've been taking on these articles is a neutral one. That seems consistent with the fact that others like you and aprock have agreed that each of my edits has been beneficial. If there's something non-neutral about my editing patterns, it'd be nice if someone had pointed this out to me on the talk pages.

I honestly feel that avoiding repeating Occam's mistakes will be a pretty simple task. From my understanding he came to these articles before getting much experience with anything else at Wikipedia, and at a time when the editing environment on them was pretty terrible. He had no editing experience elsewhere and ended up copying and contributing to the same problematic behavior that was the norm there at that point. I'm coming here with a fair amount of experience, both from editing unrelated topics and from watching these articles for quite a while. I also obviously watched the arbcom case and I know exactly what everyone got sanctioned for. It shouldn't be hard to figure out how I can avoid doing the same things, especially with the improved editing environment.

Also I pointed out somewhere before (might have been the arb enforcement thread) that the reason I'm editing these articles now is because I've always been interested in this topic, but for ages have been afraid to get involved because of the editing atmosphere. As I stated in my evidence for the arbcom case, I've tried getting involved before and other editors were unwilling to respond to me with anything other than ad hominem attacks. Likely because of the discretionary sanctions, these problems have mostly gone away. I'd have begun editing here sooner if they'd gone away before the arbcom case. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 01:28, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Prof Marginalia

Prof Marginalia: Everything in your comment I've already addressed at length. I'd like to point out something else I've noticed, though. Of the people commenting here who are actually editing with me on these articles, every one of them is arguing against a topic ban. And these are the people with experience to know whether I'm being disruptive or not. The only people for the topic ban (so far just you and Muntuwandi) are people who haven't been participating in these articles since the end of the arb case.

I see two groups of people here. People who just care about the quality of the articles, and the people who want to continue petty drama leftover from the arb case. The active editors don't always agree with me on content, but we're willing to get along and make actual improvements when people like you and Muntuwandi aren't interfering. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 21:00, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Prof M: There wouldn't be any drama if not for these threads, since I've made nothing but constructive edits since the arb case and have not engaged in disruptive behavior. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 23:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@ Prof M: I'd like to point out once again that nothing I was doing before the arbcom case violated policy. Occam and I were closely related accounts, and we also frequently edited with the same objectives, so Occam disclosed his off-Wiki connection to me immediately after I first became involved in the articles. [162] (When you say I've been "dodgy" about this are you not including his having stated this last November? So you consider me the same person as him in every respect but this one?) Whether you like it or not, WP:SHARE makes it clear that none of what I did was a policy violation, as long as he and I disclosed our connection and observed policies like 3RR as though we were a single user - which we did.

As I described in my arbitration evidence, even though I was careful to follow this policy, I was never met with anything other than hostility when discussing these articles. Remember, this was months after Occam had disclosed his off-wiki connection to me in his user talk, which should have been all that mattered. Yet even though no one could ever point to a specific policy I was violating, every comment I tried to leave was pounced on by a small group of users with questions prying into the personal details of my relationship with Occam, bringing up things about it that should have stayed private. It really should come as no surprise that this reception caused me to lose interest in these articles for months at a time, and devote my energies elsewhere at Wikipedia where I knew they'd be more appreciated.

As I pointed out in my evidence mathsci was the one who first started treating me this way, and until his topic ban he did it more than anyone. It was part of the overall pattern of behavior (incivility and personal attacks) that caused his ban. During the case I was hoping the arbitrators would do something to keep the others from continuing to emulate his behavior, but the case didn't address that issue. Maybe something can be done about it now.

Some of the people who copied mathsci's behavior toward me in the past are doing almost the same thing now, but the situation has 2 big differences now. First of all I'm not following Occam anymore, or taking his lead in any respect. Secondly, in the past I was prevented from contributing in any meaningful way by this hostility, but now I'm actively engaged in helping to improve the articles, and most of the others currently involved seem to appreciate my participation. This is why I won't allow myself to be driven away as easily as before. It can't be good for the encyclopedia to allow editors who aren't contributing to a group of articles to run off someone who is, so I'm not going to give into your and Muntuwandi's efforts to do this unless arbcom decides I have to. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 03:46, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to aprock

Aprock, I'm not sure if you think this is a problem, but I'll address it as though you do: Jensen's Clocking the Mind is the only book specifically about mental chronometry that's been published in the last 20 years. And it doesn't even mention race differences. From this book I added only historical information relating to early RT testing. You're expecting too much if you want a balanced and informative article on mental chronometry that doesn't mention Jensen, since regardless of your opinion on him, he's the most prolific modern researcher that there is on MC. I have several older books and papers in possession currently that I'm hoping to use to improve this article soon, like stuff by Carroll, but unfortunately this current case is eating up a lot of my time and energy.

I honestly can't believe that even my edits about the history of MC are being nitpicked now. People can't assume good faith about even this? Maybe things haven't improved here as much as I thought. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 00:01, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to point out here that I wish the arbitrators would see the distinction between my behavior on these articles before and after the arb case. I am willing to admit that before arbitration I was not participating in these articles independently from Occam. When I commented on these articles at all I was following him around, watching what he was involved in. My involvement here changed for two reasons after the arb case. First of all, with Occam banned supporting him isn't acceptable, so in order to contribute here I need to stand on my own two feet. I mentioned the improved editing environment as the other reason for this, but to be honest, there’s also a more specific reason... I was a bit afraid of mathsci when he was here.

I find it really discouraging how my behavior in these articles before the arb case is continuously brought up as evidence that I can't edit here independently of Occam, as though nothing has changed about my editing here since then. If there are any lingering similarities between my style and his from when I used to follow him around, I'm confident those will disappear quickly if they haven't already. I'm also totally confident I'll be able to avoid the mistakes Occam made that resulted in his topic ban if given the chance. Isn't giving editors a chance in this respect the whole point of WP:ROPE? -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 05:15, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In light of Muntuwandi's last post above, I would like the arbitrators to consider whether what he's doing here (and at SPI... and at the arbitration enforcement board...) is a form of harassment. This is getting pretty extreme: even though no one has yet made a decision that I'm a sock, he's already referring to my edits as what "Captain Occam seems to be hoping" as if I'm nothing. Looking at his contributions [163], I see that over 90% of his involvement in these articles since the arbcom case has been for the sole purpose of trying to get rid of me. Is it healthy for these articles to include an editor whose only goal here is to get rid of another editor? -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 07:30, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Weiji and comments on recent conduct

Paleontology articles do not require anywhere close to the level of discussion that R&I articles do. Additionally, I've been working on an illustration for Concavenator recently, and that takes a lot of time - most of my paleo energy has gone into that lately. (Paleo articles, by the way, are almost always based on primary sources for newly-described information and species, since it's often years before secondary sources begin to cover them - this is not new, nor is it a problem.)

The longer this amendment thread sits here, the more I think the real nature of this situation becomes apparent. A couple days ago Maunus (an administrator who usually disagreed with Occam) invited me to propose a draft for how to improve the "in biomedicine" section of the Race (classification of humans) article. As soon as I posted my draft there, Muntuwandi - who had not commented on this article in several months, and had not edited it since 2009 - immediately showed up and left this comment. The comment was then removed by Maunus. Maunus and I both tried to discuss this with Muntuwandi in his user talk, where Muntuwandi stated that he opposed my draft simply because I was the person proposing it: "From my experience interacting with Captain Occam, I believe it is within reason to be concerned if he or his associates choose to make any major changes to race related articles." The only other editors who expressed an opinion about my draft, Maunus and Terra Novus, both approve of it. Neither of them were allies of Occam while he was editing these articles.

I'm still not edit warring, tag-teaming, or making false claims of consensus, which are the things for which Occam was topic banned. And the vast majority of Muntuwandi's involvement in Wikipedia is still devoted to opposing me - even following me to articles I'm trying to contribute to that he hasn't touched in a good while. Several editors who generally disagreed with Occam, like Maunus and Aprock, seem to think I'm valuable. But among the few editors who have disagreed with both me and Occam, the attitude is to try and discredit any opinions and contributions I offer by equating me with him, even when the contributions are perfectly fine. In the case of both Muntuwandi and Weiji, I am far from the only editor who disagrees with them: Maunus and Vecrumba obviously have a problem with Muntuwandi's behavior (see the discussion in Muntuwandi's user talk that Vecrumba linked to), and in this discussion three other editors (Victor Chmara, Moxy and Dbachmann) all accused Weiji of POV-pushing on these articles. Where's the evidence for Weiji's claim that I'm engaging in "a pattern of editor conduct indistinguishable from Captain Occam’s," other than the fact that I disagree with him in areas where Occam probably would, and several other editors do as well?

Most of the accusations of POV-pushing and incivility from neutral editors on these articles are directed at Muntuwandi and Weiji, not me. I'm starting to think this whole issue isn't about meatpuppetry at all. It's about Muntuwandi and Weiji wanting to get rid of me - an easy target - so they can push their POVs more easily.

It can't possibly be a coincidence that the two editors involved in these articles that are trying to get me topic-banned are the only two whom neutral editors have accused of POV-pushing and incivility since the proposal of this amendment. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 02:34, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Weiji's new comment is probably the best demonstration so far of the purpose of this thread. This is obviously a content dispute, but he's still appealing to arbcom in hope that they'll get rid of the editor who disagrees with him.

If you look at the discussion Weiji linked to, you'll see that what actually happened is that he made a large edit without inciting discussion, which involved removing all of the positive or neutral links on Lynn, and leaving only the highly negative ones (such as the ones that call him a racist) and adding another negative one. [164] I made a partial revert of his edit, and posted on the talk page saying that we should discuss these changes and add them back one at a time, after which he immediately reinstated his edit without waiting for any discussion. [165] In the discussion on the talk page, Maunus eventually pointed out that the all of links critical of Lynn which Weiji had kept or added had all of the same WP:EL problems that the ones Weiji had removed, and removed those also.

The book Weiji added to "further reading," which refers to Lynn's research as "scientific racism," Weiji has posted on EIGHT talk pages, giving it effusive praise and suggesting that further edits to all of these articles ought to be based on this book. [166] [167] [168] [169] [170] [171] [172] [173] The book is a reliable source, but it's also strongly opinionated and it should seem obvious that not everyone would agree with rewriting all of these articles based on it.

Whether Weiji is right or wrong to want this, what matters here is that he and Muntuwandi shouldn't be trying to win a content dispute by getting arbcom to eliminate their opposition. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 22:08, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vecrumba

I've already commented that this sort of painful prolonging of the arbitration (now seeming more like insistence) is unhelpful. Were this two or three months down the line and Ferahgo were employing disruptive tactics or questionable sources—regardless of likeness to Occam—then if that's the case it can simply be dealt with. Until then I am content to allow Ferahgo to establish their own edit history. As someone who, myself, was attacked simply for showing up at R&I and related and had derision, aspersions and innuendo heaped on my head, whether for no good reason or based on unrelated prior Wikipedia conflicts, this on the face of it looks, smells, and tastes too familiar for my comfort, regardless of anyone's best intentions here. I have already stated pretty much the same at Muntuwandi's talk. (Please leave that section in place for the duration of the proceedings here, thank you!) PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 14:28, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. To Ferahgo's above, I respect WeijiBaikeBianji's editorial opinion as informed and non-extremist; "everyone except WeijiBaikeBianji agreed" is not an optimal representation of consensus, but that is a discussion not for here. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 14:36, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Muntuwandi ("If Captain Occam had been observing his topic ban like Mathsci or David.Kane, I wouldn't have filed this request."): Guilty until proven innocent is premature at this point is my only point. The only problem I've seen at the topic is that editors are still a bit on edge given the recent and ugly conflict; even if I accept that you may be completely correct, you are only honing that edge at the moment as there's not enough edit history to do much of anything else. If there isn't sufficient edit history, you can make someone out to be anyone you want them to be. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 16:38, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tim Song

Once again we focus too much on the users and not the conduct. So what if F. is editing on Occam's behalf? If there is disruption, it can be dealt with under the discretionary sanctions; if there is no disruption, what is there to complain about? We are spending a lot of time and energy here, and what will we gain from this? The ability to avoid the initial disruption needed for imposition of discretionary sanctions - if the disruption ever happens? Doesn't sound like a good deal to me, at all. T. Canens (talk) 16:47, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other aprock

To the extent that Ferahgo sticks to content issues, and is willing to read and quote sources her activity is productive. To the extent that she takes a revert first, then discuss non-content issues, her activity is counter-productive. Currently, there is a little of both, but not enough of either to make any strong conclusions. The biggest potential disruption is that Ferahgo will take on the role of gate keeper, forcing everyone to route all edits through her. This isn't a problem at the moment. aprock (talk) 17:18, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll just note here that Feragho has taken some time to rework Mental chronometry primarily to add Arthur Jensen related content. aprock (talk) 23:12, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Captain Occam

There are two important points here, both of which have already been made by other editors. The first is what Ferahgo pointed out in her response to Shell: Ferahgo’s current editing on these articles is no more similar to mine than it is to numerous other editors. Her editing style was much more similar to mine in the past, when I wasn’t topic banned and it therefore didn’t matter whether we edited these articles with the same objectives. But I think she’s made it abundantly clear by this point that she’s capable of editing these articles independently of me, now that my topic ban requires this from her if she’s going to participate.

And the other important point is the one made by Tim Song. The purpose of my topic ban was in order to prevent me from continuing to disrupt these articles by edit warring, tag-teaming, and making false claims of consensus. Ferahgo has done none of these things, and none of the other editors involved in these articles have had any problem with her behavior. At the same time, she’s been making a large number of constructive edits to articles in this topic area, particularly the Mental chronometry article. If she is to be topic banned on the suspicion that she’s a sockpuppet or meatpuppet, this will be an example of enforcing the letter of the law (if she actually is violating the letter of the law) in a way that completely contradicts the spirit of it. Although the purpose of my topic ban was to prevent me from continuing to cause disruption on these articles, the only effect that extending it to Ferahgo will have is to lose a constructive and civil contributor to these articles, who has not been accused of disruption by anyone other than Muntuwandi.

I think everyone who’s actively involved in these articles wants to put the arbitration behind them. I also want to put it behind myself, but Muntuwandi’s constant harping on it is making this very difficult. Other than his three recent attempts to get Ferahgo banned, Muntuwandi’s only involvement in these articles since the end of the arbitration case is his recent revert of a year’s worth of edits on the Race and genetics article with no prior discussion. One effect of his doing this was to once again remove a chart from this article that he edit warred to remove a year ago (described in my arbitration evidence here), which resulted in him being placed under a month of 0RR on this article. When the only thing Muntuwandi is currently doing on these articles is repeating the behavior for which he was previously sanctioned, his seeking of sanctions against a constructive editor who happens to disagree with him seems completely disingenuous. The problem here is not anything that Ferahgo is doing; it’s Muntuwandi’s repeated drama-mongering. --Captain Occam (talk) 23:26, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Muntuwandi: GWH placed me under a month 0RR on Race and genetics for going straight to AN/I about a conflict that I should have first tried to resolve somewhere like WQA, and I’ve avoided making this mistake again after being sanctioned for it. Your own 0RR was due to your continued removing of the image based not on anything about the image itself, but based on what you perceived as my motives for adding it, which in turn was based on something I’d written outside of Wikipedia. You continued trying to remove it regardless of how I changed it to address your objections, including when I read the relevant part of Cavalli-Sforza’s book and modified the image to closely match the original source, as well as after Varoon Arya created a new version of the image in an attempt to satisfy you. Yet despite being given a clear message from GWH that your doing this was not acceptable, you’re continuing to claim that “The issue of the image has not been resolved”, reverting the article back a year in order to remove the image yet again, and now are once again repeating the same justification for removing it that resulted in your original sanction.

Do you not see how bizarre this is? Your obsession with removing any and every form of this image has now lasted approximately a year, and since the end of the arbitration case this has been the entire extent of your involvement in these articles. And now, it’s resulting in an amendment request because someone felt that your reverting the article back a year in order to restore a version without the image was not a reasonable thing to do. Recidivism, article ownership, assuming bad faith… there are too many problems with what you’re doing here for me to cover them all. --Captain Occam (talk) 03:08, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there's nothing you can say here at the moment that will diffuse matters, unfortunately. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 04:59, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments: I think it needs to be pointed out how predictable the pattern of comments here has been. The four editors arguing in favor of a topic ban—Muntuwandi, Marginalia, WeijiBaikeBianji, and Mathsci—are not uninvolved in this dispute, nor are they neutral. All four of them were involved in the arbitration case, and for all four of them the overwhelming focus of their involvement in it was to try and obtain sanctions against me and the other editors who tended to agree with me. This is most apparent from looking at the arguments they presented on the “evidence” page. On the other hand all of the editors who didn’t display this us-vs-them attitude during the arbitration case, or weren’t involved in it at all, are opposed to a topic ban. This includes Tim Song, Maunus, and Vecrumba.

The editors who have a personal stake in getting rid of Ferahgo don’t actually outnumber the neutral editors, at least not on the articles or their talk pages. But what happens in discussions like this one is that when anyone just cares about improving the quality of the articles, they’re not going to care enough about what happens to Ferahgo to comment here more than once or twice, if they comment at all. Since she’s relatively new to these articles, she doesn’t have a network of supporters whom she can rely on to defend her here. But on the other hand, the editors who are devoted to eliminating as much of their opposition as possible are all going to make sure they comment here and accuse her of wrongdoing, and (in some cases) continue to make additional accusations if she tries to reply to them. It looks like in her own comments here Ferahgo has been trying to keep up with all of what the editors who want her banned have been saying about her, but when she’s basically on her own against all four of them, trying to do this is pretty futile.

What I find both interesting and discouraging is how this is apparently affecting the opinions of arbitrators. Kirill was the first arbitrator to comment here, and when he left his comment stating that a topic ban is unnecessary because Ferahgo isn’t causing any disruption, all of the same facts were available about her that are available now. (The issue of possible meatpuppetry and WP:SHARE had already been discussed both at the arbitration enforcement board, and during the arbitration itself.) But as soon as the editors who want Ferahgo banned showed up in this discussion and began to dominate it, every arbitrator who commented after that point supported a topic ban for her. Since none of the subsequent comments from Muntuwandi, Marginalia, WeijiBaikeBianji, and Mathsci involved any evidence that the arbitrators hadn’t seen already, what else could have changed to turn the arbitrators in favor of a topic ban? The only thing Ferahgo has been doing during this time is making constructive edits and suggestions for the articles, which are appreciated by most of the people involved in them.

I’m sure most arbitrators are aware that one of the negative aspects of Wikipedia’s reputation is that on articles on controversial topics, the viewpoint which wins out is usually the one favored by the largest number of editors involved in the article, regardless of whether or not this viewpoint is the most prominent one in reliable sources. Other people have told me this numerous times both before and after I became involved here, and during my involvement I’ve come to understand why it’s the case. A cabal of like-minded editors is always capable of defeating a lone user in an edit war, and will usually also win out at AN/I. (Consensus is supposed to be more than just a vote, but when 10 or 15 editors are clamoring for sanctions against a lone editor and completely dominating the discussion, it’s not often that the closing admin will base their decision on something other than what the vast majority of people commenting seem to want.) Until now, I had hoped that ArbCom was the one part of Wikipedia that wasn’t susceptible to this, but it looks like maybe I was wrong. --Captain Occam (talk) 00:57, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Roger Davies: I won’t deny that I’m involved also, which is why I haven’t participated in this thread nearly as much as Muntuwandi, Marginalia and Ferahgo herself have. I’m sure arbitrators could have predicted that I wouldn’t support a topic ban for someone I’m friends with in real life, so I didn’t expect my opinion that it’s unwarranted to have very much influence on the outcome of this thread. But the same principle should also apply to the other editors who have been heavily involved in seeking sanctions for whoever disagrees with them, and whose reactions here are every bit as predictable for this reason. Right now, these editors are the source of 100% of the arguments for a topic ban—if there are uninvolved and neutral editors who would support a topic ban (as Shell suggests), they aren’t commenting here. --Captain Occam (talk) 02:09, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to new comments from Maunus and Muntuwandi: Maunus’s updated comment expresses a very reasonable concern that with so few editors who are willing to edit from the hereditarian perspective, there’s a danger that the weight of the articles might shift towards the opposite extreme. I don’t think Muntuwandi’s reassurance that he and WeijiBaikeBianji are as capable as anyone else of preserving the neutrality of these articles is consistent with their editing patterns since the end of the arbitration case. I’m going to provide a sampling of their edits since then to show why I think Maunus’s concern about this is a reasonable one:

[174] Muntuwandi reverts the Race and genetics article back a year without any discussion. When this was undone by an IP editor, the one-year revert was reinstated by WeijiBaikeBianji, still without any discussion. Muntuwandi is currently under an a revert restriction which limits him to one revert per day, so this is an example of him and WBB tag-teaming in order to get around the restrictions on Muntuwandi’s account.

[175] [176] [177] [178] WBB renames four IQ-related articles without any discussion. Less than an hour later, he suggests that Race and intelligence be renamed in order to match the names of these other articles that he’d just renamed. When Ferahgo mentions Fertility and intelligence as an article that’s still named in a way that’s consistent with Race and intelligence’s original title, around three hours later WBB renames that one also.

Three days later, after several editors have already expressed a problem with WBB’s undiscussed renames of IQ-related articles, he renames Race and genetics to “Genetics and the decline of race”, again without any discussion. This caught the attention of Dbachmann, an administrator who sometimes watches these articles, who described WBB’s behavior as “a rather crude example of pov-pushing by article title.”

[179] [180] Two examples of WBB selectively adding and removing links from articles about researchers who favor the hereditarian perspective. The issue here is not that the links he removed necessarily belonged there, but that both of these edits had the overall effect of removing every link which described these researchers favorably, and keeping only links which were critical of them, some of which were no more relevant to the articles than the links he’d removed. When Ferahgo reverted one of these edits due to her believing it to be an NPOV issue, WBB immediately reinstated his edit without waiting for any discussion.

I would have hoped that with discretionary sanctions authorized on these articles, admins would be do something about this sort of thing when it occurs, but no uninvolved admins seem to be paying attention to what’s happening on these articles. Ferahgo has asked two administrators (GeorgeWilliamHerbert and Dbachmann) in their user talk if there’s any way to get uninvolved admins to pay attention to these articles, but neither of them replied to her question.

There aren’t as many examples of edits from Muntuwandi that could be considered POV-pushing as there are from WeijiBaikeBianji, and this is partly because Muntuwandi has made very few content edits in this topic area since the end of the arbitration case. The issue in his case is the lengths that he’s gone to in his effort to drive off his opposition. Ferahgo already described one recent example of this in her own statement, but Muntuwandi’s last comment here accusing me of evading my ban on the Race (classification of humans) article is another example. Not only have I not participated in this article since the end of the arbitration case; I also made it clear on the talk page (here) that I intended to voluntarily disengage from this article after my topic ban, even though I didn’t think my topic ban would cover it. The argument that resulted from me saying this was because several editors had a problem with me regarding this as a voluntary restriction. I’ve pointed this out to Muntuwandi before, so I know he’s aware of it; as far as I can tell, he’s claiming that I evaded my ban on this article just because it makes his case against Ferahgo look stronger.

The overall attitude I’m seeing from Muntuwandi and WeijiBaikeBianji is a lot of eagerness to get rid of the editors who tend to disagree with their point of view, combined with eagerness to make the articles conform to their points of view when most of the editors who would oppose this are out of the way. This is something that I think arbitrators ought to consider if they’re wondering why Ferahgo’s activity on the articles rapidly increased after the end of the arbitration case. In addition to Mathsci’s topic ban removing the main barrier to her involvement there, with me and David.Kane also topic banned she was one of the only people left on these articles with the knowledge and motivation to oppose behavior there that I think can be accurately described as POV-pushing.

Over the past several months, there has been an overall trend on these articles where one way or another, more and more of the people who edit from a neutral or hereditarian perspective have been driven off. Varoon Arya [181] and Distributivejustice [182] both said that this was because they couldn’t tolerate how others were treating them. Bpesta22 never specifically stated why he left, but one of his last comments before disappearing complained about “the treatment one gets here”. Even though topic-banning me, David.Kane and Mikemikev may have been for the best overall, it also had the unintentional side effect of reinforcing this trend—the three of us were the three most active remaining editors who tended to edit from a hereditarian perspective, while Mathsci was only one of a great many whose editing was primarily from the environmental perspective.

Maunus, who seems to care a lot about the neutrality of these articles, has recently indicated in his user talk that he might be quitting the articles out of frustration soon also. The more people like him leave, the more difficult it gets for people like this who remain, because the editors who are devoted to driving off whoever disagrees with them will be focusing their efforts at this on a smaller and smaller group of editors. It also makes the editors who’ve previously quit out of frustration less likely to return, because they’ll know that if they ever do they’re likely to be treated even worse than they had been originally. As arbitrators decide what to do here, I think they should consider how a topic ban for Ferahgo would encourage this trend, and how this trend may ultimately affect the articles. --Captain Occam (talk) 21:51, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Slp1: I would like to point out that I don’t feel I’ve been given the opportunity to disengage from these articles. What I mean by this is that almost as soon as my topic ban was implemented, and I began editing in other areas, I’ve been faced with a repeated series of accusations from Muntuwandi that one way or another I’m not following my topic ban—first at the arbitration enforcement board, then at SPI, and now here. All three of the three most recent comments in my user talk are from him complaining about this. In most cases, my reason for involvement is not only for the sake of the articles, or for Ferahgo’s sake—if the SPI had ruled that Ferahgo was a sockpuppet of mine I probably would have been blocked as a sockpuppeteer, and in this thread Mathsci is suggesting additional sanctions against me.

I completely agree that it’s a problem for me to be involved here this heavily, and I would really like not to be. But to say that the effort to get Ferahgo topic banned is an appropriate response to my involvement here is to confuse cause and effect. The effort to get her topic banned, the repeated messages about this in my user talk, and the related efforts to implement additional sanctions against me are what’s causing this. --Captain Occam (talk) 22:45, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Slp1 2: I don’t think you understand the reason why I’m bringing this up. All of the behavior I’ve described here is from after the case ended, so the goal here isn’t to argue about the validity of the existing arbcom decision, which obviously couldn’t have considered things that hadn’t occurred yet. The relevant question is whether going forward, Maunus is right that editors like Ferahgo are necessary in order to prevent the articles from being excessively slanted in an environmental direction, or whether Muntuwandi is right that he and WeiiBaikeBianji can preserve the neutrality of these articles without any help. Based on the examples of Muntuwandi’s and WeiiBaikeBianji’s recent behavior that I provided above, I think it’s clear that Maunus is right.

As I said, it would be vastly preferable if none of this were necessary. When threads like this aren’t going on, Ferahgo is contributing to the articles in a way that most other people find productive, and I’m focusing my attention on unrelated articles, which I think is the way things should be. But when editors are trying to obtain sanctions for her and additional sanctions for me, everyone involved gets distracted from what they ought to be doing and sucked into this drama. Any arbitration remedy needs to address the underlying issues that exist on these articles, not just the symptoms of the amendment thread itself. And those issues include Muntuwandi’s obsession with eliminating his opposition from these articles (which continues to make up the majority of his activity since the end of the arbitration case) and WeiiBaikeBianji’s apparent POV-pushing. --Captain Occam (talk) 00:46, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Maunus

The only thing I find weird is that while Ferahgo claims that she is painfully aware that according to WP:SHARE she can be considered the same account as CaptainOccam is she edits with the same objectives as he did, and that she therefore should avoid editing patterns similar to his, but she has chosen to manifest this awareness by entering into the same debate in which Occam is topic banned, arguing from the same pov as he did. This seems contradictory to me. Now, I didn't advocate a topicban for Occam and will not advocate one for Ferahgo untill such a point that she might demonstrate that she is not interested in collaborative editing. However the discrepancy between her stated awarenes of WP:SHARE and her actions jars in my ears, and I would like her to elaborate on how, now that she has chosen to emulate Occams choice of editing topics, she is going to avoid repeating his mistakes.·Maunus·ƛ· 00:06, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

update I don't think Ferahgo can be said to display battlegroud behaviour in her recent activity at R&I related articles. If she does it has clearly been from frustration by the way other editors have been treating her. She does edit from the pro-hereditarian viewpoint, which she apparently shares with Occam to a large extent and knows as much about. This is the only worry I have on grounds of principle I think it is an unfortunate situation that of two editors editing from the same computer on the same articles one is topic banned and the other isn't. This does open possibilities for gaming and loophole surfing. However I agree with Tim Song that this problem is best solved by being pragmatic about it and saying, "so what if Ferahgo is really proxy editing for Occam, as long as she is not displaying his behavioural problems as well." Occam wasn't banned because of his POV but because of his editing behaviour. Furthermore since David Kane and Occam have been topic banned I find myself feeling forced to make pro-hereditarian edits, simply because this viewpoint is now very weakly represented (among editors, not in the articles), I don't enjoy this as it is not a view I personally entertain. I would urge all editors to be mindful of balance and forexample when cleaning up articles not only remove the dubious or badly written material with which they disagree but also dubious and badly written material with which they agree and try to move towards a synthesis instead of just shifting the weight towards the other extreme.·Maunus·ƛ· 23:47, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Michael Price - It is a pretty standard image, what made it misleading was the context. Cavalli-Sforza is qute upfront in saying that the tree does not illustrate "races" but bio-geographical genetic clusters. When taken out of that context as an illustration of genetic differences between races that is misleading. However you are right it is a content POV issue - but it is an that has been grossly aggravated by substandard editing behaviour from editors on both sides of the dispute. Please do read up on the entire case when commenting. The world is more often than not more complex than what it looks like at a quick glance. ·Maunus·ƛ· 17:30, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Price: Occam and David Kane and Mathsci have been topic banned because arbcom saw them as having a general pattern of problematic behaviour - not based on that one edit. ·Maunus·ƛ· 17:58, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@MichaelPrice: We are all aware that there has been a long time problematic editing environment at Race related articles - we have gone through a several months long ArbCom case that attests to that. You are only pointing out what is obvious to everyone who has been involved: Race related articles have been a battleground for the last several months, this is what we are working towards changing. This amendment case I guess is part of that process. ·Maunus·ƛ· 18:16, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

comment to Captain Occam's comment:I want to make clear that the reason I am likely to stop watching race related articles in the near future is not due to frustration with the the editors, but simply with the long and tediouis process of arbitration during which progress on the topic has been stalled.·Maunus·ƛ· 22:18, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Professor marginalia

I've been too busy in the last few weeks to edit or follow the latest developments closely, but these assurances that Feragho and Captain Occam can be viewed as two distinct and independent accounts are not credible. They are partners in real life, and the only involvement of Feragho's in these involved articles prior to arbitration was to show up out of nowhere to "vote" or otherwise lend support to Captain Occam in various disputes, with he himself showing up right behind her to pointedly underscore her support to lend weight to his position. This edit, for example, was made to Ferahgo at a time when she'd only eight edits total in the entire encyclopedia, 5 of them minor edits--none of the edits were yet in the field of race or intelligence. Prior to arbitration, Ferahgo's only editing related to the involved articles followed Captain Occam's addressing her as an involved editor on her talk page. Then for the next 6 months her only involvement was over the course of about 10 edits to lend him backup in a single article (Race and intelligence) and in dispute resolutions on various other boards. But during, and now following, the arbitration in which Captain Occam was ultimately banned, Ferahgo was taken brand-new interest in at least seven more race/intelligence related articles. One of them is Race and genetics, never before edited by Ferahgo, yet she writes, here of content that she "remembers being there last October" -- uncanny the déjà vu to one of Captain Occam's disputes there then. I'd have hoped that with the degree of disruptive gaming going on over the past year that arbitration would bring an end to it. Professor marginalia (talk) 19:41, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Ferahgo-the fact that often I have other demands on my time does not render me an "inactive" editor who doesn't "care about the quality of the articles" or that I am concerned only about "continuing the petty drama" of the arb comm case. The arb comm was as much about ending "petty drama" as anything else. And I steer as far clear of "petty drama" as I can, but to justify spending time on the arbitration means I won't watch idly by when its outcomes completely unravel via gaming. This means I won't go without commenting should spouses, roommates, partners, parents, children, siblings, friends, co-workers and other "stand-ins" assume a curious and intense new interest for editing just as article bans go into effect. It's not me who is the source of the drama here. My efforts are focused here on ending it. Professor marginalia (talk) 23:06, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Ferahgo 2: Re: WP:ROPE--a) It's an essay b) You're ignoring the section "When not to use" which advises not to make such concessions against "Banned users – users blocked by community discussion or ArbCom". You asked now why your past behavior is relevant--it's because your edits then were challenged as meatpuppetry, and you and Captain Occam variously deflected, rebuffed and even attacked those who revealed your closeness irl. Now that he is banned from editing those articles, you've redoubled your efforts to edit them in his absence, and the pattern repeats itself.

Because you continue to profess how remiss other editors are to doubt you, it's relevant to lay the story all out once again. You opened your accounts minutes apart, you edit from the same IP ranges, you came to the disputes following Captain Occam's recruitment, your entrée was limited to that of backing him up in disputes, and both you and he took subtle but conscious steps to "keep up appearances" of independence. When allegations of meatpuppetry were raised, you vanished for 6 months, only to resurface in support of Captain Occam against accusations of tag-teaming and SPA:[183] (Captain Occam was later to be officially sanctioned for those same abuses by the arb comm.) When your tiny edit history raised eyebrows then,[184] you quietly slipped away from the dispute and your editing of unrelated articles soon jolted, a tripling in just 2 weeks of your previous year's output. You then resumed backing up Captain Occam in disputes, essentially forcing other editors to take a closer look and probe deeper into the WP:MEAT question. Your support on Captain Occam's unblock request to Jimbo[185] prompted Hipocrite to question your intentions to self-disclose your relationship when backing up Captain Occam in disputes. Your reply, "I think it's excessive to mention it in every comment," was both disingenuous and dismissive of a legitimate concern--in fact you had never before mentioned it on the wiki until after he'd posed the question to you on your talk page, and even after you did do so you downplayed it as merely "knowing" him and "irrelevant". You also continued, "but I don't try to keep it a secret and will answer honestly if asked."[186] However several days later in yet another forum where you popped in to back him up, you were less than forthcoming again, forcing the issue one more time. When Hipocrite then asked you quite directly, you and Captain Occam both tried to elevate it as a personal attack and an "outing".[187][188] Much as you are now, claiming "harassment" by Wapondaponda.

Today you concede, "I am willing to admit that before arbitration I was not participating in these articles independently from Occam. When I commented on these articles at all I was following him around, watching what he was involved in." But this wasn't made clear when commenting on Captain Occam's behalf in content disputes, further exacerbating disruptions. You go on to say, "with Occam banned supporting him isn't acceptable, so in order to contribute here I need to stand on my own two feet." And as should have been clear to you from very early on, it was inappropriate not to be "standing on your own two feet" with each and every edit anywhere, anytime in the encyclopedia. The past year's efforts to dodge or diminish valid concerns about proxy editing, including attacks against those trying to pin down what's going on, will of course cast a certain light on your words and actions today. So the argument, "Yes, my past role was limited to being Captain's loyal helpmeet in the articles, but since he's been banned you are out of order to think that of me now" doesn't hold water with me. One reason things got so out of hand in the first place were dodgy shenanigans and skewed priorities, and I don't see how turning a blind eye now will shape things up. Professor marginalia (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Ferahgo 3: I think we're on opposite sides of a gulf here. From your point of view, Captain Occam's acknowledgment that you two "knew each other" in real life on Captain Occam's talk page entitled the two of you to put all suspicions and questions about this to bed once and for all, in any and all disputes in wikipedia, in all forums, for ever after. And you expect us to understand his words are on behalf of the both of you, end of subject, while all the rest his and your editing are to be viewed as "independent". From your point of view, our concern should be limited to whether or not you've been faithful to the letter of policy.

While from my point of view, these articles have been plagued by gaming for quite some time. Once meat-puppet concerns were raised both you and Captain Occam should have become well aware that your relationship was of valid concern. Rather than pushing back, you might have realized that you both need to explore your interests at wikipedia completely independently or be prepared to disclose your relationship to fellow editors when lending support to each other in articles or disputes. And to realize that one invites "prying" if they don't "get it" and press on. From my point of view, the concern is that you, like Captain Occam demonstrated to me when I first came to the dispute, fixate on how out-play policy, via hair-splitting comments and policy, and canvassing "back-up" to help you do so. And from my pov I've invested too much time to this dispute just to diagnose and document one aspect of the problem to justify watching it repeat itself right under my nose. Professor marginalia (talk) 05:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by WeijiBaikeBianji

Comment by other editor WeijiBaikeBianji: this looks like a meat-puppet to me. Even though my user name is mentioned in this discussion, I somehow was not aware that this discussion was occurring. What I see on the article talk pages of several articles that are directly included in the recent ArbCom case discretionary sanctions is a pattern of editor conduct indistinguishable from Captain Occam's now occurring from the keyboard of Ferahgo the Assassin. Checking Ferahgo's contribs, it appears that her participation in race and intelligence topics far exceeds participation in paleontology topics, contrary to the advice she received from members of the Arbitration Committee. (And I note that several of the paleontology article edits consist of inserting statements from primary sources, perhaps unreplicated primary sources, rather than from Wikipedia preferred reliable secondary sources.) I see a lot of the same, old same-old that I saw before the decision in the recent ArbCom case. Assuming good faith, I'm happy to have any editor of any point of view request that editors refer to sources and back up content edits with citations to those sources. But I will not allow Wikipedia articles on the topics recently covered by the ArbCom case to become battlegrounds that keep us busier looking for phony "consensus" on the talk pages than doing substantive article edits based on recent, reliable secondary sources. The articles covered by the case have been in terrible shape for a long time because many POV-pushers who read blogs more than they read the professional literature refuse to believe what the current professional literature says and actively revert sourced content. The topic sanctions allow administrators to act with due discretion to keep single-purpose accounts from dominating those articles. I hope that administrators will not shy from using their mops to clean up the mess, so that an improved editing environment brings about much improvement in all the related articles. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 23:30, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- Follow-up on disruptive edit by Ferahgo. Just today, Ferahgo made an edit [189] that reverted an edit of placing a highly reliable, well reviewed secondary source in a Further reading section (preparatory to using the source for article edits) and cleaning up the same article's external links section per WP:EL. Discussion of that series of edits can now be found on the article talk page, with participation by Ferahgo, me, an editor who participated in the recent ArbCom case (Maunus), and an editor unknown to me. I'm sure that Ferahgo considers her edit a good-faith effort to maintain what she regards as neutral point of view on Wikipedia. But after I spent time last week reviewing the external link policy (prompted by a question from another Wikipedian, as documented on my user talk page) and hours this week reading a lavishly documented source on the subject of the article in question (and other articles related to the ArbCom case), I can't help feeling that the edit was disruptive. Ferahgo pushed a point of view by that edit and did not uphold Wikipedia policy. Quite apart from the issue of meat-puppetry, the ArbCom decision was intended to leave in place a set of discretionary sanctions that would uphold Wikipedia policy and allow source-based improvements in the articles within the scope of the case. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 18:55, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- Question for Michael C. Price I get the impression that you haven't been following all the contribs of the various persons named here if you think the entire fuss is about that diagram. But while we are on the subject of what is "standard" in the literature, what sources do you recommend on the general subjects of anthropology, human biology, or race to show what current standard scholarly practice is in treating those issues? Perhaps before you see this reply, I will be traveling again to the largest academic research library in my state to pick up more books on those subjects. I am always eager to hear source suggestions from Wikipedians who know of reliable sources to share with other Wikipedians. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 16:31, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to question from Michael C. Price As also answered by Maunus in his comment space here, what can be misleading about that image is the context in which it is brought into an article. What I have thought is misleading about the image is the representation that it is the last word on a subject that has seen quite a bit of research since the book in which Cavalli-Sforza published the results summarized by the image. That is why I ask about sources: I am, thus far, not seeing the Cavalli-Sforza image used in standard secondary sources on the subject as a conclusive statement on human "race" groups. Quite the contrary, I have from the keyboard of Cavalli-Sforza himself rejections of the race concept as a scientifically valid concept; images and charts from a variety of authors, who disagree with one another in whole or in part, on lineage relationships of various human populations; and varied detailed maps of the distribution of human genes that show that genes under selection pressure can occur in more than one lineage group, even if neutral polymorphisms can distinguish lineages. The overall literature is much more up-to-date and much more nuanced than that image, which is why Cavalli-Sforza himself does not simply reproduce that image in his latest book (which I have at hand as I type this). -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 17:49, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the thoughtful comments by Slp1. I see that Slp1 noticed, before I did, the ridiculous comment by Captain Occam here. Captain Occam, who was properly topic-banned after a lengthy Arbitration Committee case in which he had ample opportunity to demonstrate what he has to contribute to Wikipedia, has the gall to suggest that I might endanger the neutrality of point of view on Wikipedia if I proceed to edit boldly on the basis of reliable sources. I took care before I did many article edits at all to let other Wikipedians know about valuable sources and to solicit all of them to suggest further sources to me. I did that during the discussion of the Arbitration Committee case and I continue to do that. (Indeed, I specifically invited Ferahgo to recommend sources for the source list, and Slp1 seemed to think that that was a helpful suggestion.) I discuss a lot with other editors before I edit. My edit count statistics show that I post to article talk pages more than I post to articles themselves, to date, although now I hope to change that balance to having more article edits. I mentioned in the ArbCom case file that I agreed with RegentsPark that POV-pushing by single-purpose accounts was violating the core Wikipedia principle of neutral point of view. (As I recall, and as seems to be confirmed by the diff, RegentsPark made his remark while commenting on the editorial behavior of Captain Occam.) While the case was still being decided, in the case file in full view of the Arbitration Committee, I forthrightly announced that I intended boldly to fix problems in the articles within the scope of the case as soon as the case was decided. (Yes, you saw a link to WP:BEBOLD with different link text in that diff. I know what the rules are here.) I have "not yet begun to" do that, to quote John Paul Jones. The current condition of most of the articles in the scope of the ArbCom case is not neutral point of view, because the articles have been skewed by poor sourcing and tendentious editing for a very long time. I am agreeable to working tirelessly and boldly to clean up a mess that others made before I became a Wikipedian. I am confident that there is no doubt in the scholarly community, as there should also be no doubt in the Wikipedia editing community, that the point of view preferred by Captain Occam and by Ferahgo the Assassin (and relentlessly pushed by them into Wikipedia article text) is not a point of view that would look "neutral" or "balanced" to most persons literate in English and especially not to most persons who are familiar with the research on IQ testing. (IQ testing is a subject on which I will be giving a public workshop presentation at a statewide meeting next month, as I have before and as I will again in Illinois early next year). Since everything that is being said here is once again in full view of the Arbitration Committee, and because I am possibly still the newest Wikipedian here, I call on the onlookers to give me a reality check: is it wrong, after traveling to a major academic library to find good sources (as I do every Sunday) and after actually reading those sources (I read Cavalli-Sforza 1994 the year it was published, from cover to cover, and have followed his subsequent writings with great interest) to then edit Wikipedia articles according to my best understanding of what reliable sources say? Is there some kind of rule against that? -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 02:00, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

General question for any administrator looking on: Isn't there now ample evidence here, from the keyboards of the involved persons, that discretionary sanctions from the recent ArbCom case should be applied to uphold Wikipedia neutral point of view core policy? -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 20:34, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mathsci

Some weeks ago an arbitrator suggested that I should comment here.

Captain Occam has disclosed on wikipedia that he cohabits with Ferahgo the Assassin and that she is his current girlfriend. He himself edits very little at the moment (he is sporadically writing a race-related article in his user space). Ferahgo the Assassin's editing in articles/talk pages covered by Captain Occam's topic ban does seem to have taken on the character of his editing, with the subject of dinosaurs now secondary. There are some editing traits of hers that can only be explained by meatpuppetry, most significantly her attitude towards other wikipedians (Georgewilliamherbert & Dbachmann as administrative wikifriends, WeijiBaikiBianji & Muntuwandi as disruptive opponents).

In her statements above, Ferahgo the Assassin has presented with considerable determination a multitude of constantly changing excuses and justifications, some of them stretching the limits of credibility. At the same time she and Captain Occam have displayed a total failure to take any notice of very clear and helpful advice offered to them by arbitrators here and elsewhere. On balance all the information so far available suggests that Ferahgo the Assassin has adopted an editing strategy, worked out in consultation with Captain Occam, to aid him in circumventing his topic ban. Mathsci (talk) 05:15, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Captain Occam's girlfriend Ferahgo the Assassin continues to wage his BATTLES on wikipedia in an ever-widening set of articles, all covered by his topic ban, and against the same perceived opponents. [190][191] It seems essentially to be all she is doing on wikipedia at the moment. Captain Occam has revealed below that he engages in discussions with Ferahgo the Assassin concerning wikipedia and his topic ban. In view of that admission, the only reasonable presumption is that Ferahgo the Assassin's edits in the area of his topic ban are also the result of joint discussions between the pair of them. Both Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin have been offered ample opportunity to comply with suggestions of arbitrators over a prolonged period of time (five weeks), but have been unresponsive. Because there seems to be no prospect of voluntary compliance, the only remaining option seems to be a formal amendment of Captain Occam's remedy, extending his topic ban to Ferahgo the Assassin. Since Captain Occam has shown no sign of taking any responsibility for his actions, some form of additional sanction might also be appropriate for him. Mathsci (talk) 04:20, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to Captain Occam's new statements above, it might be worth noting a prior statement that he left on Maunus' user talk page:[192] "I’m sorry to bother you about this. I don’t know if I’ve made this clear, but I find this situation extremely frustrating also, and not just because I can observe in person how Ferahgo is affected by it. I share your concern that with so few editors left who edit from the hereditarian perspective, there’s a danger that the neutrality of the articles might suffer as a result, and Ferahgo is pretty much the only one of these left who hasn’t either been topic banned or quit out of frustration. Muntuwandi’s recent behavior on these articles does not give me a lot of confidence that he and WeijiBaikeBianji will be able to keep them neutral if given free reign over them. I’m very worried about what will happen to the articles if these editors manage to get rid of the only remaining editor who disagrees with them." Mathsci (talk) 05:53, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by David.Kane

Although this debate does not involve me and I am topic banned in this area, MathSci's comments compel me to chime in.

1) Note Shell 's inadvertent (I hope!) mistake in describing Wikipedia:SHARE as "advis[ing] editors in this situation to treat edit warring and other restrictions as if they were a single account." But that is not what Wikipedia:SHARE says. Instead, "closely related accounts should disclose the connection and observe relevant policies such as edit warring as if they were a single account." (Emphasis added by me.) In other words, even though Occam is topic banned, that ban has no implications for Ferahgo. Restrictions placed on one account do not apply to the other account. There is all the difference in the world between restrictions and policies. (For the sake of argument, I assume that we all agree that Ferahgo and Occam are, in real life, two separate people. If Ferahgo were a sock-puppet then, obviously, restrictions which applied to Occam would apply to "her" as well.)

2) More productively, perhaps I can suggest a solution. We can all agree that Ferahgo's behavior (whatever legitimate complaints various editors may have about her) is not anywhere near as egregious as Occam's (or mine or MathSci's). Therefore, it makes no sense that she should receive as harsh a sanction as we (correctly) did. So how about probation? Or a one month topic ban, starting now? It seems unfair to Ferahgo that any restriction ever placed on Occam would apply to her as well. What if Occam were banned from Wikipedia completely? Would Ferahgo be sited-banned as well? That is not what Wikipedia:SHARE suggests. David.Kane (talk) 16:52, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As much as it pains me to suggest any type of sanctions for Ferahgo, I think that in general, some sort of sanction that’s less than a full topic ban is probably the best idea.

There are two lines of reasoning that need to be weighed against one another here. Because of Ferahgo’s close connection to me, it’s reasonable to be worried that at some point she’ll engage in the same sort of disruptive behavior for which I was topic-banned, even though there haven’t been any examples of this yet. But on the other hand, it seems completely counter-productive to ban an editor from a group of articles where they’re making useful contributions and not causing any disruption. Ideally, whatever solution ArbCom comes up with should be based on both of these concerns.

In terms of what’s best for the articles, probation looks to me like the best idea. It will ensure that Ferahgo doesn’t engage in the same behavior for which I was sanctioned—and if she ever does, the probation would very quickly result in a block or topic ban. But it also would not prevent her from participating constructively as long as that’s the only thing she’s doing. In fact, I would say that this situation is a near-perfect example of the situation in which WP:Probation is used: “Probation is usually used as an alternative to an outright topic ban in cases where the editor shows some promise of learning better behavior.” (Or perhaps in this case we should say, “shows some promise of continuing her existing good behavior.”)

In general, I would assume that the ultimate purpose of remedies imposed by ArbCom is to prevent disruption on the articles, so they should not extend beyond what’s necessary to prevent disruption. Is that an unreasonable assumption? --Captain Occam (talk) 18:19, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

After thinking about it for a while - and discussing it with Occam - I agree that the best solution is for probation. I would voluntarily consent to a probation lasting the term of Occam's topic ban. Odd as it may be I think this might improve things in general, since at the moment I can hardly make a single edit or comment on these articles without being accused of POV-pushing or disruption by Weiji and Muntuwandi. All of the other consistently involved editors - like Maunus, Aprock, Vecrumba, and Victor Chmara - seem to appreciate my contributions, which has kept me from getting too disheartened. But even for edits the majority finds helpful, these accusations have been obstructing legitimate content discussions and progress to the articles.

If I am placed on probation, it would be the job of an uninvolved admin to determine if I'm engaging in any policy violations. One reason this would be helpful is simply that it would hopefully mean Muntuwandi and Weiji no longer feel the need to accuse me of this in every discussion I'm involved in and constantly try to get me removed. If I really AM doing anything wrong, I'd also like that to be constructively pointed out by someone uninvolved so that I can fix my behavior. When I'm being accused of this incessantly by only two people, it's impossible for me to tell whether I'm really doing anything wrong. -Ferahgo the Assassin (talk) 22:50, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Michael C. Price

All this fuss over a well sourced diagram.

Genetic distance between 42 populations, showing six major genetically-defined human groups

Cavalli-Sforza, L.L., Menozzi, P. & Piazza, A are respected academics, not racists and these diagrams are standard. --Michael C. Price ^talk 10:19, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WeijiBaikeBianji says I can't have been following the entire discussion; you're right. What I did was look at Occam's insertion of the above diagram (since it was mentioned in this discussion) and see that it was reverted with the comment: "removed misleading image". How is the image misleading? It looks pretty standard to me. That tells me that we dealing with a POV issue, dressed up as a conduct issue. --Michael C. Price ^talk 17:25, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Manus claims that the insertion of the diagram, which seems a long running bone of contention, mixes up "races" and "bio-geographical genetic clusters". This seems to miss the point that neither term was referenced in anyway in Occam's edit.

I would encourage everybody to look at the contenious edit and judge for themselves whether it merited removal on the grounds of being "misleading", and draw their own conclusions as to which side is being disruptive or POV pushing.

--Michael C. Price ^talk 17:53, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I understand Manus's point that it was more than this edit that was responsible for the original topic ban. But my point is that when a single informative edit, such as this is, is reverted so summarily, it is a sign that not all is well with the status-quo. --Michael C. Price ^talk 18:04, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Muntuwandi, you don't have to read a book before posting an image from it - all that matters is that the new content confirm to policy, be relevant etc etc, which it does. That the image was later used by another source (Jensen) that you happen to not like is irrelevant. Judge content by ... content. Not inferred intentions and guilt by association. --Michael C. Price ^talk 10:16, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Muntuwandi's argument (now) is that drive-by readers might misunderstand the diagram at "race and intelligence", since "few readers seem to pay attention to the actual text in the article". In other words, no matter how it explained, he will object to it...... --Michael C. Price ^talk 02:37, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Slp1

As full disclosure, I should mention that I am one of the administrators who very strongly suggested that User:Ferahgo the Assassin should not directly edit the Race and Intelligence set of articles while Captain Occam was topic banned.[193] It appears the advice has not been heeded and we are here. My understanding is that a topic ban is put in place in part to help an editor disengage from a subject. Captain Occam's recent post above makes clear that this has not happened, and that he is as involved in scrutinizing the topic and its editors as he ever was. I cannot believe, given the detailed level of his interest and the relationship between them, that Ferahgo is a truly independent contributor here. It would have been preferable if she had accepted to limit herself voluntarily as requested, but since she hasn't, I believe that extending the topic ban to her is correct, and likely to help both of them to disengage from the issue. --Slp1 (talk) 22:28, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Captain Occam. I think you miss my point; this post is a detailed list of complaints about the edits of other editors on articles from which you are topic banned. This is not the place to re-litigate the ArbCom decision or to seek admin enforcement; it is the place to discuss whether you and Ferahgo are truly independent editors or not. Your post has the curious effect of showing that you have not disengaged, and that it is all the more likely that the two of you can be considered a unit, discussing the latest WP goings-on over supper etc. Being a unit is not a bad thing of course, since it's a very good sign in a relationship when a couple support and uphold each other. But I also think it is better for Wikipedia, and for the two of you, to have a break from this topic. My personal advice would be for both of you to unwatchlist the articles; somebody else can worry about them while you are gone, exploring the world and the many other articles of WP. --Slp1 (talk) 23:18, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

I see little evidence that Ferahgo is a sockpuppet or otherwise acting in violation of policy; as has been pointed out, Ferahgo's primary editing interests to date seem to have revolved around obscure dinosaurs. If their presence becomes disruptive in the future, they can be dealt with by discretionary sanctions; I see no reason for us to presume wrongdoing at this point. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 12:30, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The recent SPI case confirmed that Ferahgo and Captain Occam were related in a way that made the two technically indistinguishable and Ferahgo was advised that she should respect the topic ban; she ignored this conclusion. Given that Wikipedia:SHARE advises editors in this situation to treat edit warring and other restrictions as if they were a single account when they edit with the same objective (especially in controversial areas), I don't see why there is any question here. Of further concern is Ferahgo's contribution history, or frankly, the lack thereof. Of her 314 edits since she registered in 2006, more than 50 were comments to support Captain Occam in some dispute or against some sanction. Before the sanction, she only edited in the topic area to support Captain Occam on talk pages. Since the ban she's continued his arguments and in just the past three days has reverted material she (and Captain Occam) didn't agree with 3 times. Stick to the dinosaurs. Shell ^babelfish 19:32, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- @Captain Occam - You should be well aware that I held this position long before this request even opened and warned both of you of the likely outcome if you chose this path. In fact, many editors (not just those you consider opponents) have brought this concern to both of you; the SPI should have made things quite clear. It's unfortunate that you both chose to push the limits this way instead of heading the advice you were getting, but here we are. Shell ^babelfish 01:56, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On balance, the arguments that proxy editing of some sort is going on are much more persuasive than the denials and are a better fit with known facts and the applicable policy. I'd support a topic ban for Ferahgo. Roger Davies ^talk 17:37, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- @Captain Occam. The point here though is that Ferahgo isn't a lone voice in this dispute. She has you by her side and you are as involved as those whose opinions you seek to have us exclude. Roger Davies ^talk 01:09, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Captain Occam. As this is not an AfD and we're not weighing consensus, it doesn't much matter who says what ... Roger Davies ^talk 02:21, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree as well. As far as topic bans are concerned, both accounts should be taken as one. — Coren ^(talk) 13:20, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]