VOICES

Candace Pert:
A Molecular Jungian
in Search of the Quantum Experiment

Advances: Dr Pert, what are you working on these autism. I’m very interested in autism, and I’m nervous
days? about it. Recently there was a report in the media that
Pert: I’m still working on our AIDS drug that we they’ve now “debunked” the story that the measles-
invented. mumps-rubella or MMR vaccine has a connection to
Advances: This is the drug that is based on neu- autism. These reports are based on epidemiological stud-
ropeptides? ies, and I just can’t believe that any analysis can debunk
Pert: Yes, it was invented for AIDS but then it turned that vaccine connection in the absence of hard science,
out to have other uses, for psoriasis, for example. There’s which is clearly needed.
a whole new breakthrough in our understanding of the Advances: One of the things that I find interesting
drug and how it works. We used to think it worked on about autism is the question of a brain-gut connection,
one receptor, but it turns out that it works on a which seems to be related to your research.
chemokine receptor, which is miraculous, because it’s Pert: It is a well-established, published, scientific fact
been newly discovered that the virus plugs into corecep- that a lot of people with autism also have gut problems.
tors—chemokine receptors—which weren’t even discov- Viruses grow in various tissues in the body, and the gut is
ered yet when peptide T was discovered. If you one place where they stay. I know a lot about viruses
remember, there had been some fussing about whether because this is what I’ve been working on for the last 16
peptide T was for real or whether it was a bunch of years. What’s the difference between an attenuated virus
baloney. It turns out that the main virus that affects peo- that’s used for a vaccine and one that causes disease? In
ple in the early stages of HIV uses these chemokine recep- fact, nobody really knows. Basically, one causes disease
tors to enter and infect cells. Peptide T blocks these and the other doesn’t. Genetically, they’re nearly the same.
receptors and is the first of a new class of AIDS drugs They make the same envelope. It’s astounding that kids
called viral entry inhibitors. born after 1983 (approximately) have these live viruses
We realize now that we could make receptor-active that are maintained, and some of them do grow.
peptide drugs for other conditions, such as Alzheimer’s Viruses take up residence in the gut, and the key is to
disease and autism. We are now seeing very positive have the holistic vision and realize that there is much
antiviral and immunomodulatory results from a clinical more communication between the body systems than we
trial being run in San Francisco by Advanced Immunity, thought. For example, virally infected monocytes can
Inc, and the National Cancer Institute. move throughout the brain and the body. There are many
Advances: These peptides occur in the brain as well? plausible mechanisms for this connection. For one thing,
Pert: Yes, they do, and that’s important because we now know that there are peptides called chemokines
they’re inflammatory peptides and that’s related to that have receptors in the brain and in the immune sys-
tem, among other places, and they mediate inflammation.
No one knows the mechanism, but by giving a lot of vac-
Candace Pert, PhD, is a research professor in the Department
of Physiology and Biophysics at Georgetown University, cines to a kid of a certain age, if you create inflammation,
Washington, DC. She is the author of Molecules of Emotion: I can just imagine that you alter brain development.
The Science Behind Mind-Body Medicine and has directed One possible mechanism could be that these
extensive neuropeptide/receptor research. chemokines, which are released during inflammation,
actually modulate neuronal survival—the number of
Dr Pert was interviewed by Sheldon Lewis, editor of Advances
neurons that survive—as my colleagues and I published
in Mind-Body Medicine.
in a paper 2 years ago. Now there’s a study with rats

36 ADVANCES Fall 2002, VOL. 18, NO. 1 Candace Pert

showing that infecting rats with influenza virus affects endicro-gastro-genito–logical network. There’s no cell in
the number of neurons in the cortex. So that’s one plausi- the body that’s not communicating with another cell. So
ble mechanism. in arthritis, we’ve got immune cells that are moving by
Another has to do with what’s known about the enve- chemotaxis by neurons that are releasing various factors.
lope proteins of these viruses. There’s very little virus in Then there’s a dietary aspect to the whole thing.
the brains of people with AIDS. But only a few infected There have been double-blind, placebo-controlled studies
cells release envelope proteins—the envelope is the coat- that show that a diet with less animal protein and less ani-
ing around the virus that allows it to enter and infect mal fat will actually have a good effect on arthritis. It has
cells. It’s the key to opening the lock for these receptors also been unequivocally proven that stem cells from the
throughout the psycho-neuro-endocrine network. These bone marrow turn into neurons in the brain and body.
envelope proteins can fit in anywhere, they can fit in the The mainstream neuroscientists had a very hard time with
gut, they can fit in the brain. In the brain with AIDS, this, and a lot of controls had to be done. But it’s been
you’ve got these envelope proteins spewing out, binding proven without a shadow of a doubt that it’s not just a few
to all of these receptors, and causing neuronal death by nerves in the spinal cord, but nerves up in the speech
acting on these chemokine receptors. Who knows what center and the highest levels of thought and imagination,
happens when you’ve got living viruses in monocytes? that are coming from various parts of the body.
They could enter the brain as well. So these stem cells start life in the bone marrow,
Advances: So what you’re talking about is a kind of move through the blood as white blood cells, and then
psycho-neuro-immune model of autism? move into the brain and actually become neurons. One
Pert: Absolutely, a psycho-neuro-immuno-endicro- wonders about the pattern, but to me it obviously has to
gastro-genito–ological disease—otherwise known as be affected by our thoughts. We are literally, as Deepak
holistic. You have to consider the body as a whole. Chopra has called us, a field of information and energy.
Advances: As a researcher, what do you want to see All the cells are moving about following information, and
examined? I’m not talking about our genes.
Pert: Well, I’m always into the killer experiment. All The New York Times had an article about a neu-
of the negative data in the world doesn’t tell you anything, ropathologist who went back to Iceland, because they’ve
in my opinion. I’m not a big philosopher of science, but I got such good records, looking for the genetic cause of
know from practical experience that if someone does an cancer and arthritis and everything under the sun. But the
experiment and says “I couldn’t find the opiate receptor,” evidence is overwhelming that these diseases—cancer
that doesn’t mean that there’s no such thing as the opiate included, at least in part—are lifestyle diseases. They’re
receptor. It’s very hard to disprove something. If you say, toxicity diseases, they’re related to something in our envi-
“There is no such thing as a green tiger,” how do you ronment. Lifestyle is not just what you eat and how much
prove that? It doesn’t matter how many orange tigers exercise you get, it’s also what you’re thinking. Surely
you’ve got. All it takes is someday someone coming up what you’re thinking is controlling which neurons grow
with a green tiger someplace. There were 6 papers that and take root in your brain. And if what you’re thinking is
claimed there was no opiate receptor, because people powerful, if you speak what you’re thinking, you give it
couldn’t find it. So to have a paper that says “I can’t find a even more power; if you write, you give it more power.
link with autism based on population data” doesn’t really Advances: How do you understand the process of
debunk anything. One should be able to do a biological that—how our thoughts and speech and writing could
experiment, such as comparing the presence of virus in influence neuronal development?
blood in autistic versus normal children. Pert: You’re pointing to your head while you say that.
Advances: In the mind-body field, there’s often a But I’ve been a big champion [of the idea] that the mind is
dichotomy between the hard science and people’s beliefs everywhere in the body and that the body doesn’t exist
about whether patterns of disease are affected by beliefs. just to carry the head around. You have to realize that
Pert: Right. I had a bout of arthritis in my ankle from there are neurons in every stage of development, so there
an old ski injury, and it got swollen to the point that it might be a neuron down here in my toe that’s a primordial
hurt so much I was on crutches, and even in a wheelchair, neuron. It can get stuck in my toe and jammed down there
and it happened twice! But I made a conscious choice to in one way, or it might drift and get up to the level of my
not think of myself as permanently crippled, because my knee and then maybe it’ll come into my spinal cord and
self-image is not that, and I feel like I have important become a neuron there. Or maybe it’ll eventually get up to
work to do. Then look at what arthritis is. Many diseases my head and become a neuron there. What will affect
today, like arthritis, are inflammatory in nature. We know that? It’s a very complex question. On one level, we know
now that inflammation is not all caused by the immune that these cells move through the molecules of emotion,
system. We know that there’s a psycho-neuro-immuno- the neuropeptides and the receptors—that’s what actually

Candace Pert ADVANCES Fall 2002, VOL. 18, NO. 1 37

sets their course. But I believe that intention and attention these young people, we are keeping them from somehow
might play a role in the way all these factors interface. resolving, or facing, or confronting, or working with these
Advances: Are there data that suggest that intention- spiritual crises?
ality might have some effect on cellular processes? Pert: Yes, I say in my lectures that the children are
Pert: I don’t know how much scientific study has the canaries. There’s something really wrong on a psycho-
been done on things like neurolinguistic programming. spiritual level that we’re missing, like toxic influences in
But what we have data on depends on what’s funded. One the culture. It’s simple to say it’s the violence on TV. But
of my goals before I die is to be able to research the scien- we’re somehow so far away from what God made us or
tific foundations of what I call new paradigm medicine. I what evolution made us to be that people are suffering
don’t like to call it alternative or integrative medicine— horribly. Just think about kids in the mall with their cell
they all have a lot of baggage at this point. I like to call it phones; it seems they’re more in contact than ever, but
“new paradigm medicine”—things that a lot of people maybe that’s not really the same thing as walking along
think work, although others would not agree whether and touching someone’s hand and looking into someone’s
they work. Unless there are data, it would be hard to eyes. And maybe things are going to start to unravel. I
prove that. sound like a Luddite—and I am, on a certain level.
Another area that has really gotten me interested late- ADHD is another concern, with so many kids taking
ly is energy psychology. This gets into the quantum nature drugs like Ritalin (methylphenidate hydrochloride) that
of the human being. I’m seeing how each person is equiv- are an atom or two away from an amphetamine. We have
alent to one molecule. For example, Jim Oschman has to be careful here, because some kids have been helped
written about how we’re really one continuous molecule enormously by these drugs. But what is going on?
because among our cells we have this intercellular matrix Advances: I feel as though we could go off on a psy-
that’s continuous with the extracellular matrix. We have a chospiritual direction or we could go in a biochemical
pole, and we’re really like one giant molecule and we direction, and somehow I think we’re trying to go in
interact with other giant molecules. You know that at any both directions at once, because we’re discovering it is
given nano-nano-nanosecond you have a certain percent- one direction.
age of your electrons on the other side of the moon, right? Pert: Thank you, that’s what I’m trying to do—to
Everyone knows that now. So I’m thinking, or maybe I’m synthesize. What’s missing in mainstream medicine is that
experiencing, that as you age you’re really spending less spirit has been taken out. We all know the spirit is part of
time on the earth, that you’re diffused and part of the us, the qi and the prana and these meridians flowing. We
whole white light. And you can start to kind of feel that. just have to understand what’s actually going on.
Advances: When we talk about beliefs influencing Advances: So there are molecules of emotion. Are
knee pain or joint inflammation, there’s something here there molecules of spirit?
about the spirit. Pert: I think there are conformational states of the
Pert: When you say the pain in your knee—all pain molecules of emotion, or vibrational states that have them
is actually in your head. I mean the actual pain perception spend a certain amount of time in the spiritual realm.
is in a pain center that’s in part of your brain and comes That’s what has fascinated me about emotions, is that
up to your periaquaductal gray and/or thalamus. Our they’re in both realms—the physical and the spiritual.
brains are always interpreting these sensations from the They were always in the spiritual realm: art, music, feel-
body and deciding is this pain, or what’s this? One per- ings, you can’t really touch them or describe them. But
son’s pain is another person’s pleasure. You can have a lot now with these molecules that we’ve all mapped over the
of psychic pain, and you may be suffering a lot, and it years, I can write you the chemical structures. I can tell
might be easier to let it all manifest as the knee pain than you which cells are involved, what glands they’re in. It’s
as something else. very, very physical. So there’s clearly some kind of link
One of the things that worries me about mainstream between the physical and spiritual realms.
medicine is the overuse of the biological psychiatry drugs. Advances: Is it your feeling that the link is energetic?
We’ve become a medicalized society where what used to Pert: Of course it’s energetic. But that doesn’t mean
be a crisis of the spirit and psychospiritual problems have that it’s not also molecular, because molecules, of course,
now become translated into “is your dose of Prozac too have energy. In energy medicine, you move a molecule
high or too low?” Many kids and teenagers are being that has charges, and you move it in a field and it gener-
labeled mentally ill and given these drugs in combinations ates energy—magnetism—so it’s one and the same thing.
that have never been tested—especially on young peo- Advances: Is the peptide model, the key-lock model,
ple—and we have no idea what it does to the develop- the right model?
ment of their brain. Pert: Well, there are a lot of interesting spins on that
Advances: But you’re saying that by overmedicating model that have happened in the last few years.

38 ADVANCES Fall 2002, VOL. 18, NO. 1 Candace Pert

Classically, I saw the key [the ligand] as passively moving Pert: Like distance healing, remote vision. . . .
to the receptor [the lock]. But what if—and there are Advances: So you’re saying that if a receptor could
papers that show this is what happens—two molecules in vibrate and another molecule could help get a ligand to
a solution, very far apart from each other, can influence the receptor, at a quantum level, why wouldn’t sending
the vibrational rate of the other? [This does happen] healing energy to somebody far away work the same way?
through water, and our whole body is water. So we can Pert: Absolutely. One electron is here and the other
have one receptor crying out, but the ligand doesn’t just one can be on the other side of the universe with the
passively diffuse there. Maybe it goes over—there’s a opposite spin. The world is a lot different than people
quantum word for it—a big energy barrier, and one think. And maybe this is why so many people are crack-
minute it’s here but the next minute it’s clinging to the ing up, because they’re in denial about the true physical,
receptors. It’s not really lock and key—there are these psychospiritual nature of the human being. Never before
energy states that these molecules are in. has there been such a denial of the spiritual. That’s proba-
Advances: Like magnets or some attractive pull. . . . bly what’s going on with the kids, they’re growing up in
Pert: Exactly. They start to vibrate at the same rate. this materialist culture and they’re experiencing the spiri-
It’s sort of a resonance. tual and the spiritual is very, very real—and they’re just
Advances: The ligand and the receptor are vibrating blown away. Right? Could that be it?
at the same rate at the same time. Advances: Once you embrace the energetic, the
Pert: I’m speculating on that, but we know that every notion can be grasped that what we understand in terms
molecule is vibrating. Aren’t you vibrating on a higher of physics has a parallel to the spirit. And I think that
state some days than others? I have no doubt that we’re you’re linking that to what’s going on molecularly, so any-
going to be able to measure this one day. There’s some- thing’s possible.
thing about this vitality thing. Maybe it just means your Pert: Let’s give credit where credit is due. I’m a
molecules are spending more time in the earth plane and molecular Jungian. I think Jung figured everything out
less time “out there.” So the molecules of emotion are quite a long time ago, and Fritjof Capra integrated quan-
guiding the formation of our brain at every level, all the tum physics and spirituality in 1975. There’s this collec-
time—in development, as a fetus, as an adult—as they’re tive unconsciousness—you can tap into that energy. I
guiding the movement of all these white blood cells that spoke at a conference recently with Deepak Chopra, who
later on become your brain. And this is hard science! It’s asked, “Why do you have a sense that you’re there, that
not speculation. you’re in that body? Who knows the answer?—The
Advances: I’m very struck by this image of the recep- answer is habit!”
tors crying out. Our version of reality in our culture is just a habit—
Pert: Well, “beeping in the night.” Like every mole- the truth is really very fluid.
cule, the receptor has only a certain number of favored Advances: How would one design an experiment as
conformations—shapes—in which it spends most of its a molecular Jungian?
time. Those conformations are flickering, are vibrating at Pert: Well that’s a good question. We have to get to
different rates. Each shape, of course, has a different the true nature of dreams, dreams that predict the future.
repercussion for ions flowing and self-function. Then the Advances: Part of that true nature would molecular?
ligand lodges in the receptor, so it might spend way more Pert: Oh, of course. Because in the end it’s going to
time in shape A than in shape B. When we talk about the come down to the fact, and it is a fact, that there is a pep-
speed at which it is flickering from form to form, we’re tide called vasoactive intestinal peptide (VIP) that gets
getting into the quantum nature of the molecules. There’s released during REM sleep that also promotes the survival
no molecule in your body that’s isolated, just as the mole- of neurons and axons and dendrites—and at the end,
cules in your glass of water can influence each other at a there’s something that says, Print it! The dreams that you
distance. Then of course there is the principle of influenc- remember are reorganizing your brain structure.
ing others. Advances: In the lab, you study the microlevel, mol-
Advances: So molecule A can help molecule B get to ecularly. Do you ever feel that this is a reductionistic
the receptor. . . . approach? Given your expansive view of the energetic, the
Pert: . . . so that the receptor gets that hit. I was think- spiritual, the holistic, the everything-related-to-every-
ing about how there are energetic forces that go from one thing, it’s not just the molecules—as even you yourself
person to another that are involved in action at a distance. say. But much of what you do is about the molecules.
Almost everything’s plausible to me now—even things that Pert: I have a schizophrenic life. In one life, I’ve been
seemed to be totally weird. And by the way, “weird” comes to the most unbelievable places and seen the most unbe-
from the Anglo-Saxon root word for spiritual. lievable things and that’s really expanded me because I’m
Advances: Like distance healing? a big believer in seeing is believing. I gave a lecture for

Candace Pert ADVANCES Fall 2002, VOL. 18, NO. 1 39

Ramtha* and [J. Z. Knight’s] followers. [Knight] was one
of the very first New Age people. I went into a room with
them all and saw pink sparkles of light everywhere. They
said, “Oh yeah, that’s the love consciousness, we put that
out routinely.” And it wasn’t a trick. I’ve seen a lot of real-
ly strange phenomena. I’ve had a lot of healers strut their
stuff, so I know as a good observer-scientist that there’s
stuff out there that we can’t explain.
Then on the other hand, I’m here at Georgetown with
the lab and students and doing experiments and doing
statistics on them and publishing papers in mainstream
journals. It’s a real split, and sometimes it’s very stressful. I
guess that’s my life’s work, to make it all be one. But I
want to do the critical experiment, in collaboration with a
physicist and a theologian.
Advances: What would be the experiment?
Pert: I was thinking right now it would be very
important to do the experiment to prove that the new
brain cells that form come from different parts of the body
and are involved in the conditioning that went into them.
I think that would be very powerful to do that.
If you do avoidance learning on a rat, where it gets
shocked on its left leg (versus on its right leg) and then
you take the bone marrow out of the left leg and transfuse
it into a naive rat, there’s a way to actually trace the neu-
rons that get formed. It’s really elegant if you inject into a
female rat and use male bone marrow—then you can
stain for the Y chromosome and follow it, see exactly
where the precursor cells go and what cells they form.
What would be the differences in neurons produced from
the bone marrow of the left leg, compared with the right
leg? With that kind of experiment, we could get some
handle on mind-body learning. But that’s a low-level bio-
logical experiment. That’s not the grandiose cracking of
the universe.
Advances: And how would you do that experiment?
Pert: I don’t know. Yet.

*According to J. Z. Knight, Ramtha is a “consciousness” chan-

neled by Knight. For more information, visit http://www.
ramtha.com.

40 ADVANCES Fall 2002, VOL. 18, NO. 1 Candace Pert